How To Give And Receive Effective Feedback With Dr. Abby Diehl

We all give and receive feedback on a daily basis in all areas of our lives. How can you receive feedback to learn and to enhance your life? Can you keep fear from getting in the way of allowing feedback in to make you more successful? In today’s episode of Your Life in Process, Abby Diehl and Diana Hill reflect on our personal experiences with feedback, and the psychological principles involved in feedback, and have fun practicing receiving and giving feedback with each other.

Transcript

How can you best give and receive feedback so that you use it as an opportunity to learn and grow?

What are some of the common barriers to giving and receiving feedback and how can you address those barriers with psychological principles?

That's what I'm going to explore today with Dr.

Abby Deal on your life in process.

Welcome back everyone.

It's the end of season two.

I am glad to be here 30 sessions in and I want to thank you for listening to this podcast.

I started it in January six months ago.

We're halfway through the year here and it's a good time to pause,

Reflect and get some feedback.

Today I have on the show the person who gives me feedback about the show,

Dr.

Abby Deal.

I'll let her introduce herself to you and I think you're going to find our conversation fun and informative.

Abby and I are going to talk about how to receive feedback effectively.

We're going to talk about giving feedback and at the end she gives a little bit of feedback to me about my recent episode with Daniel Pink and I want to let you know that we're going to be taking a break.

We're going to be back in August but I really like to do these podcasts seasonally to give me a break from podcasting,

My team a break to get caught up and work on other projects and give you a break to go back and listen to past episodes that maybe you haven't listened to yet.

I highly recommend Katie Bowman if you haven't listened to her and Brian Pilecki's conversation about psychedelics is a not miss.

So go back and listen to some episodes that you might have passed on by and give me some feedback about the podcast.

You'll learn how to give effective feedback by the end of this podcast.

I'm headed off to France for the next couple of weeks.

I'm going to be visiting family and then going to Plum Village with my family where we're going to be practicing mindfulness in the footsteps of Thich Nhat Hanh.

So I can't wait to come back share about my experiences there and share about what is coming up in the fall which you're going to be really excited about and we're going to be working hard for you on after we take a little bit of a rest.

We have a very special episode today to close out season two of Your Life in Process and I thought it would be really fun at the end of the season to bring on somebody from the Your Life in Process team and that somebody is Abby Deal.

She's going to tell you a little bit about who she is and we're going to share with you today some ideas around feedback because Abby is the person that gives me feedback on this show.

We give feedback in terms of content and style and it's a wonderful concept to start to explore in our lives.

We get feedback from lots of different places.

We give feedback in lots of different places and how can we do it more effectively so that it is used for learning and growth.

So Abby,

Why don't you start with sharing just who you are and why you're interested in this concept of feedback.

Hi.

So I'm Abby Deal.

I am a clinical health psychologist.

I have been in an education space where I'm teaching,

I'm training,

But I'm also doing therapy with clients one on one.

I've also worked in integrated health settings.

So I did a fellowship in health psychology and work alongside other physicians and medical providers.

So we're constantly communicating.

There's giving feedback.

There's expectations.

In pretty much every area of my professional life.

And then I am just so curious about communication in general.

I don't think that we really listen to each other very well.

And just how we communicate as humans is so complex.

So not only professionally,

But personally,

I started just getting fascinated by this idea of we're always getting information about ourselves.

And what do we do with that?

How do we take that in?

And how do we focus on using that for growth,

Rather than it having to be like this terrifying experience?

Yeah,

So we're going to talk about the terrifying experience today and how to turn it around so that it's useful to you and kind of debunking that Malcolm Gladwell 10,

000 hours rule out there.

And saying that you can 10,

000 hours of practice is how much you need to become an expert at something.

Well,

Not really if you're not getting good feedback or incorporating good feedback into those 10,

000 hours.

So if you are a massage therapist giving three years of massages to people,

But nobody ever says that wasn't very good,

You're going to be in the same place that you were when you started.

So feedback is really central to our ability to grow and learn.

And I thought it would be helpful for us to break it down into these two parts,

Although they're interrelated in terms of receiving and giving.

Because I think there are some skills and some processes involved in giving and receiving feedback that interfere with our ability to do it effectively.

Let's actually start with the receiving feedback part of it.

Because I know that's something you're particularly interested in,

Abby.

We are so focused usually on the giver.

How can you say the right words so that the person can take it in?

But we oftentimes,

No one has ever taught me how to receive feedback.

Doing graduate school,

Being a therapist,

Being a teacher,

We're oftentimes put in these positions where people are giving us feedback.

We might not exactly want it.

Or we may have a different idea about what actually we want to get.

So for people receiving feedback,

What am I looking for?

Am I wanting someone to show me appreciation?

Am I wanting someone to actually give me some coaching so it's for growth?

Or am I wanting an evaluation?

Do I want to know if I'm on track in my job or in my personal life?

And a lot of times,

We don't slow down to actually think about,

What do I really want?

What am I asking for as the receiver of feedback?

Yeah,

I could see how that could go sideways on you if you're wanting appreciation,

But then someone is coming in and giving you the feedback of how to change things.

It doesn't really settle well.

No,

You feel dismissed.

You leave the encounter of going,

Like,

What just happened?

Or for instance,

If you really want coaching from your boss,

Or you want to know,

Am I on the right track with my job?

I have this new job,

This new position.

Where am I supposed to go?

And you just come in and they're like,

You're doing a great job.

You're like,

Wait,

What?

That doesn't help me grow.

I often call that the Swedish massage experience versus the deep tissue.

And if you go in expecting a deep tissue massage and you get a Swedish massage,

You're going to be really disappointed because it's just going to feel like,

You gave me all these platitudes,

But I didn't really get any material to work with.

And if you go in,

So a Swedish massage is kind of soft and smooth and it just kind of feels good,

But doesn't get into the deep tissue.

But if you go in wanting a Swedish massage and someone gives you a deep tissue massage,

You're equally disappointed.

You're like,

Oh,

This hurts.

I wasn't wanting that.

So getting clear on those,

That first step is getting clear on,

Are you wanting appreciation?

Are you,

What was the second one?

Are you wanting?

So as a receiver,

Do you want appreciation?

Do you want coaching?

So do you want,

Do you want to be coached for your growth or are you hoping to be evaluated?

I need to know if I'm on target with the plan,

With the outcome.

Okay.

So coaching and valuation are different.

Coaching evaluation are different.

Coaching does always have a little bit of evaluation in it,

But coaching is very explicitly for growth.

And sometimes we can just have an evaluation that's not necessarily meant for growth,

Right?

So at the end of your performance report,

Like you either met the metric or you didn't,

And that may or may not be intended for growth.

But with coaching,

There is always sort of a judgment with it.

And for the receiver,

It can be based on our previous relationship with feedback.

So what are our previous experiences receiving feedback?

And the context matters,

You know,

Work versus personal life versus even the internal feedback that we give ourselves?

You know,

What's the relationship that we have with that word even?

I think that's a good place actually to land on a little bit of just our relationship with the word feedback.

Because if someone comes at you,

Whether it's your friend,

Or your boss,

Or your mom,

And they start the sentence with,

Can I give you a little feedback?

What happens internally?

Your stomach drops.

Yeah,

Your heart starts racing.

You're in this moment of,

Oh,

No,

What's coming at me.

And what's interesting about that,

I think is that feedback,

That moment of feedback is a moment of uncertainty,

And novelty and unpredictability.

You don't know what's coming next.

And when you don't know what's coming next,

Your body detects it as a threat.

Naturally.

I mean,

Your amygdala is like,

Okay,

This is uncertain.

Your amygdala is going to light up.

And there's actually,

I don't know if you've read some of the stuff from Joseph Ledoux,

The neuroscientist who's like trying to debunk the whole theory around the amygdala being our fear center.

The amygdala is not your fear center,

Folks.

The amygdala is your threat detector,

Your uncertainty detector.

And so the amygdala detects uncertainty because something novel is coming at you.

And then it sends the slew of neurochemicals into your body to prepare for the uncertainty.

So you may notice your heart racing and you're getting kind of ready to run,

But it's your interpretation of that based on your past experiences with feedback,

Based on the context,

The power differential in the moment,

Based on all sorts of things,

Your interpretation,

Whether you interpret it as,

Ooh,

I'm going to get a deep tissue massage.

Yay.

Or,

Oh no,

I'm about to get injured.

That lends to you experiencing fear.

And that's more of a cortical experience.

So the higher level parts of the brain that interpret that uncertainty.

Interpretation matters and context matters during feedback.

What you say about the fear is so true.

And if we're in a fearful place,

Then we're not able to learn and to take that in.

And so feedback,

While we can intellectually know,

Like this is something that's meant for growth in a social context,

If we've had this different relationship with it,

Then it feels threatening and it feels like we're being kicked out of the tribe and like this other social component.

And so it's combining,

Like you said,

That biological response,

Oh my God,

I don't know what's going to happen.

My boss just called me in.

Like,

Can we talk?

Like you're already kind of crafting this,

The story of the feedback.

And at the same time,

Even if you have the ideas,

Like I'm a growth oriented person,

You're still going to respond biologically and socially in that way.

And then how we respond to that fear often blocks our ability to receive the feedback.

So we're,

Oh no,

My boss just called me in,

Or Oh no,

My partner wants to talk about our sex life.

Feedback is important for growth.

And what we tend to do going back to these ACT principles is experientially avoid.

So we experientially avoid through getting defensive or shutting down or wanting to run or cutting it off quickly or lots of different ways in which we don't allow that information in and going back to Malcolm Gladwell's 10,

000 hours,

All of a sudden we're not growing.

So some tips,

How do we stay open?

Yeah.

So how do we stay open and how do we stay curious?

My first tip is one,

Potentially even know,

Like,

What is it that I'm looking for in this conversation?

So if the conversation is planned,

Am I hoping to get some coaching?

How can I use some words and ask for that?

Do I want an evaluation or do I want appreciation?

So even knowing,

Going in the conversation,

What you want,

And then slowing down and taking a breath and resetting your nervous system.

It's like you said,

Amygdala lights up,

All of this fear response goes in.

We can't take that information in.

So take a breath and listen.

Just seek to listen,

To understand.

One of the things that I coach clients with is say,

Can I write this down while the person is giving you feedback?

Either you take a note in your phone or you write it down on a piece of paper.

And the function of that,

It has two things.

It makes you stay present because if you're writing something down,

You have to actually listen to what they're saying.

It also gives the message to the other person that you are listening.

More often than not,

What we end up doing is getting in our own heads and not listen,

Not be present.

And we're just coming back with our response back in terms of what we're going to say.

So if you actually sit and write,

I'm going to write some of this down,

It's a win-win for both of you because they start to feel like,

Oh,

They're taking me seriously.

And it gives you a little bit of space to integrate what is being told to you.

So the pause,

Take a breath.

You could say,

Can I write this down or can I reflect back to you what you're saying?

Is this accurate?

Because that's another way of kind of slowing things down.

Yeah,

Checking your understanding and repeating it back to them.

So what I heard you say,

Going in with an open mind is really important for that.

And I also think going back to what we were talking about with our past relationships with feedback,

Knowing your past relationship with feedback and having had that internal experience with yourself where you're saying,

How do I relate to feedback?

What does this actually mean for me before you even go into these types of conversations?

Yeah.

And what are my experiential avoidance strategies?

In behavioral psychology,

We talk about functional analysis,

Where you look at,

Okay,

What's the antecedent?

Like when the feedback,

What's the feedback that you've received in your life?

What's the behavior?

How do you tend to respond?

And then what's the consequence?

And you can look that in lots of different contexts of your life.

You may respond differently in different contexts,

But getting a little understanding of what your pattern is so that maybe you could try and do something different next time is really helpful.

That sort of ABC model of functional analysis.

Yes.

Yeah,

100% knowing yourself and being curious and nonjudgmental and taking that stance of feedback is meant to make me more successful.

So even on a changing the self story that we have around feedback,

And this is something that's been very difficult for me in my life based on my past history with feedback,

To start saying and reminding myself,

This is meant to make me more successful.

Okay,

Let's go there.

What's your past history with feedback?

What's that you have?

Oh my gosh.

Well,

When you're in an academic environment for most of your life,

You're constantly being observed and then told,

This is what it means.

So I guess a really good concrete example of this is in graduate school when you're training to be a psychologist,

When you're training to be a professional,

People have very specific ideas about what that means.

And they're trying to mold you in a very particular direction.

And they're like,

This is being a psychologist.

This is not being a psychologist.

And you're under a microscope,

Right?

So everybody is watching everything that you're doing in these encounters.

And they're saying,

This is good.

This is not,

This is a therapist.

This isn't.

And it doesn't leave very much space for you to figure out what you actually think it should be.

And so sometimes the feedback can feel very personal and very critical.

So when people are saying,

You're not doing that quite right,

I've tended to interpret it as you're not right.

Like there's something wrong with you that needs to be fixed.

And that then sets up this avoidance.

Like I don't want to go in there and get feedback.

But at the same time,

I'm a very growth-oriented person.

I listen to tons of podcasts.

I do tons of personal growth work.

I really want to get better at all of these things.

And it competes,

That desire for growth competes with this past history where it has felt almost like it's attacking an identity or trying to build or break down a certain identity.

That is really important because I've experienced a similar thing.

And what I think it relates to,

At least for me,

Is when I'm banking my self-worth on somebody else's opinion of me or my banking my self-worth on my performance.

And this kind of maps onto some of Neff's research around self-esteem because I'm a child of the 80s and I was built in the model of self-esteem.

You got to build somebody up to make them feel like they're special and then people like them as opposed to self-worth is independent of your performance.

It's already there.

And I think that when,

And that's more of the self-compassion model.

When they've done research comparing self-compassion versus self-esteem,

Folks that are given ambiguous feedback when you have a high self-esteem but not a lot of self-compassion,

You're more likely to interpret that ambiguous feedback of like,

Oh no,

There's something wrong with me versus folks that have high levels of self-compassion.

When you receive ambiguous feedback,

You're like,

Okay,

I'm kind of curious.

I want to figure out what the feedback is because I know that my worthiness is not based on my performance in the speech or whatever I just did.

So there's something really important there,

I think,

That kind of maps onto this concept of how we receive feedback that if we work on our self-compassion and our self-worth,

Then we'll be able to receive it and not have it hit us at the core of who we are,

Which I certainly have had.

And which I think also when we've had that early on in our life,

Maybe we've been valued for our performance and not been sort of told that you're worthy whether or not you get an A or not on this kid.

We carry that forward into later experiences like academic settings or places where there's power differentials.

Yeah.

The culture of achievement and external validation and even the culture we have right now of are we validated by the likes that we have on different media platforms or where do we get kind of this external or internal sense of worth and any information that we get about ourselves,

How do we make that fit with our own identity?

Yeah.

And I've had that experience for sure because I'm getting more of this sort of feedback from strangers in different places.

So like on Insight Timer,

People will give me feedback on a meditation that I did.

And I can feel my mood go from high to low instantly when if someone says something like that breathing exercise was too slow for me.

And I'm like,

Oh,

And then the next minute someone says this is the greatest meditation ever.

I've been using it for three months and I'm like,

Oh,

And that for me is because I'm basing my worth on somebody's comment as opposed to okay,

Lots of people have different perspectives.

And that their experiences in part based on who they are and their context.

Feedback has a lot to do with the source of the person where it's coming from,

Not always about you personally.

Yeah.

And there's some information about who it is matters and how we receive it.

So if it's a stranger telling us,

Hey,

Maybe you could do this and this could help you out and I've had some previous experience in this area,

You could be like,

Yeah,

I totally do that.

But then if your spouse tells you the same thing,

Like,

You know,

Maybe you should eat a little bit differently and it could help you with losing some way,

You're automatically like what?

Like,

Why are you telling me this?

Like,

I don't want that from you.

So it's very interesting that the source of feedback matters a lot and whether or not we're open to hearing it.

I just want to highlight the main points of what we just said were,

One is knowing what type of feedback when you're receiving feedback,

Knowing what type of feedback you want,

Whether you want appreciation or coaching or evaluation.

And then number two,

Know your history and how it's influencing you in the present moment and stay open to the feedback.

So don't get caught in the sort of the emotional,

Oh no,

Fear response to the threat,

But see the feedback as an opportunity for growth and then stay present to receive it.

And then number three would be self-compassion.

So those could be some tools to flesh out and work on for folks when we're,

And I'm certainly going to try and work them on on them.

I think it's good to take a moment at the end of the season to share some appreciations for the team that is hard at work behind the scenes on this podcast.

Abby being one of them,

She does this for just the love of doing it.

She is busy in her day job,

But takes the time to give feedback and write the show notes for this podcast.

I'm so grateful for her doing that.

She also writes up the,

Your daily practice you get to have every single week.

And if you haven't checked that out yet,

There is a daily practice for every single one of these episodes.

It's like a self-help resource list that you can go back to.

I also want to say a big thank you to Angela Stubbs who works on social media and publicity of the podcast.

She is creating all the beautiful visuals as well as Ashley Hyatt,

Who is behind the scenes making all of this work,

Scheduling all the appointments and then correcting all the ones that I miss schedule.

Thank you to Ashley for all of your hard work and to my husband who is the producer and the website person of this podcast.

This is very much homegrown in our kitchen,

Lots of good fights around it.

So love him and appreciate him for taking his time out of parenting and his work to do this with me.

Thank you so much.

And I will say that you are really good at giving feedback,

Abby.

So I want to get into the giving part of feedback because I swear you're like the perfect massage.

You do such a good job.

And I've been curious about what is it like,

What's her secret on how she gives such good feedback?

I can tell you what I experienced,

But I'm curious what you're doing behind the scenes.

I'd love to hear what you experience.

Behind the scenes,

What goes on in my mind is I really,

What I want is for the receiver to find something in it that's of value.

I'm very conscious of that.

And when someone asks for a very particular piece of feedback,

Then I look through the lens of it.

So as we've talked before,

You say,

I'm working on things being shorter,

Or I'd like this to be more interesting,

Or this is what I was intending with this process.

And then I listen with that ear for that particular thing.

And I listen very holistically,

And then I slow down enough to say,

Okay,

This is particularly what they're wanting.

Oh my gosh,

You're so,

Yes,

That's it.

So what you're doing there is perspective taking,

The psychological flexibility skill of perspective taking.

What does this person,

So in terms of giving feedback,

What is this person wanting from me and how can I actually meet that need and that goal?

As opposed to just going in and assuming,

Okay,

This is what I see.

You're getting behind the eyes of the other person and taking perspective.

And when I was looking into some of the skills around how to give feedback effectively,

Perspective taking really stood out to me because one of the things that research shows is that when you're in a position of power or in a sort of more privileged position,

You're actually,

It's actually inversely related to your ability to perspective take.

And you're less able when you're in a position of power,

You actually are less able to read people's emotional cues on their faces.

And yeah,

And you're more likely to anchor your feedback around your own vantage point.

So I think one really important thing when we're talking about feedback is noting positionality,

Privilege,

Power in every context,

And really practicing that perspective taking skill is going to enhance the feedback so much.

Yeah,

Because it's not about me,

Right?

Giving feedback is not about you.

It's about the other person.

It's designed to give them what they need,

Whether that's appreciation,

Coaching for them to be growth successful or evaluation for them to be more successful in moving towards their goals.

It's about you.

And so understanding what is it that you want is the first step.

And then listening to whatever,

Looking at the content from that lens.

And then how the feedback is delivered has to be clear and anchored in something that is very tangible.

So one of the things that I have been working on and I do find challenging at times is to communicate exactly what I'm seeing.

So in this moment,

I heard this,

This is how I took it.

I'm not quite sure if that's exactly what you mean,

Like checking that understanding.

And then having a clear behavior that I can anchor something on.

So when you did,

This is what I noticed,

I wonder if you might try something different or how does that land for you?

So it's doing that in a way that's kind is really important to me.

Yes.

So being specific about the actual behavior,

So you're being a jerk is not good feedback.

Right.

And also not good feedback is you did such a good job.

I really loved it.

That's crappy feedback.

Okay.

So both of those are crappy feedback.

You want to actually be specific around what you're observing and giving feedback as well around what are the next steps.

One of the things that I,

A little side hustle of mine is that I love to teach people how to make sourdough bread.

I've been making sourdough bread forever.

And they come in with their first little pathetic loaf to show me.

It's like inevitably when you make your first loaf of sourdough,

It's like this little flat hockey puck,

Like this little hard flat hockey puck.

And I think it's such a good,

It's like,

This is like a benign example of how you could give someone feedback because the first thing that you could do,

The first thing that I would do if someone brought in their sourdough would be like,

Wow,

You made your first batch of sourdough bread.

And it takes a lot of time to get from,

From A to B on this thing.

And I'm so glad that you follow through.

So you start with like also giving feedback is not always negative feedback.

You can give feedback on,

You know,

What you're seeing that's strengths and being specific cutting into it.

Okay.

I see there's a lot of irregular holes.

What that likely means is that you did a great job in the folding process.

You were folding throughout the day with your sourdough.

So getting specific,

I see the holes,

What that means.

And then the person is anchoring,

Okay,

Next time I make sourdough,

Do that again,

That's going to work.

And then,

Then also giving feedback around.

I also noticed that the outside is,

Is dark and the inside was undercooked.

And what that may indicate is that you didn't let it rest for long enough.

So next time I would suggest you rest it for two hours before cutting it.

So getting really specific,

But in that,

In that whole sequence of events,

I would also be getting feedback from them.

How did it go for you?

What were you experiencing?

And that back and forth of being,

Giving specific information,

But also receiving information from them around where they got stuck or what was working for them could lead to a better outcome,

But specific is central.

I love it.

And you keep it to just a couple of things that they can do,

Because if you tell people 25 things that they need to do,

They're going to be like,

I can't do all of that.

And they just shut down.

So one or two things,

Hey,

Maybe you might consider doing this next time.

And it's also,

There's a lot,

There's a permission in the exchange.

So what I love about your example,

It's like something that it's a hobby for you and you're passionate about.

And then people come to you and they're like asking for the specific permission and consenting to receive this very specific,

Like one to two things type of feedback.

That's such a great.

And I think that's,

What's in the relationship that we have with you asking for feedback and me giving it is that you're being very specific about it and there's this consensual process.

So it makes it more comfortable,

More workable and just a more enjoyable experience overall.

So consensual process and reciprocal process,

Because I was actually,

I was talking with a friend of mine last night who she works for a large organization.

I probably cannot say its name,

But very large organization.

And I was asking her about how they do feedback within this company.

And what she said was they do something called 360 feedback,

Which is they give feedback upwards in terms of your superiors.

They give feedback downwards.

They give feedback sideways.

It's 360 so that unlike what you were describing in your academic setting,

How often do the graduate students give feedback to their advisors?

How often do children give feedback to their parents?

How often,

Feedback tends to be top down and not 360.

So that was one thing that stood out to me.

I'm like,

Okay,

That's good.

We're doing feedback around different levels of power.

The second thing that she said is that they give feedback monthly,

Quarterly and yearly.

So they give it frequently.

And that's something that I think in relationships we don't do.

It's like we wait till things fall apart and then we give them all the feedback from like the last six months or year.

Yes.

You have to allow for time for correction.

If you give feedback and then you're like,

Okay,

Relationship over,

Or you've had your year over,

You haven't actually had the opportunity to do anything with it,

Then that creates this really negative relationship with that human being and feedback.

And you're much less likely to be in a growth mindset about it.

Yeah.

If you let it build up and then you dump it all at once,

Or you dump it all at once and then expect it to change,

Those two are going to be super effective.

You need to do it over time so that people are like,

This is just part of how we are with each other.

You have to have other feedback where it's not as scary if you're doing it over and over again and you have that experience with one another.

Yes.

And actually starting the relationship in that way,

Saying this is the whole goal of it is we're doing the feedback because we want to maintain the relationship.

When have you felt like you gave a good feedback?

One example that I have from a work environment,

Getting the chance to work with a student,

Actually had them record doing a skill.

So they were working on motivational interviewing skills and I had them sit down with someone and actually go through,

Practice this particular skill.

And then what we would do is we would stop and say,

Are you on track with what exactly you're wanting to practice and giving them immediate feedback?

When you said that,

What was your intention?

What were you thinking?

What could you say instead?

So slowing down the conversation enough because it had been recorded that then we could really give them very specific feedback with an eye to where they already said,

I want to get better at doing this reflection skill.

And so the whole time we were focused on that particular process.

That's a great example because there's a few things that you're doing in that.

One is you're giving in the moment immediate feedback,

Which our learning is so much better when it's immediate versus like last week you did this and now I'm giving you feedback on it.

If it's in the here and now you're going to learn it better.

And there's neuroscience research behind this where they do things like have people learn like a whole new grammar system online,

Like you're learning a made up language and they either give you feedback immediately or they give it to you slightly delayed.

And when you give it to you immediately,

You learn it faster and better and it shows up in the EEG.

So like the spikes in your brain.

So immediate feedback,

Way better.

It's going to encode way better.

But then you're also having them participate like in the conversation by saying things like what are you noticing here?

Is this on track for what you are wanting to learn?

And that builds into like autonomy and choice,

Self-determination theory around motivation that when you feel like you're being controlled,

You're going to resist.

When you feel like you're part of and you have a choice and you're engaging in the process of your change,

You're going to be more motivated to work on that change.

So it's a much safer environment.

It allows for openness and curiosity.

And it's really exciting to get to craft that environment.

I didn't even realize like that's the environment I was crafting until I was just talking about it right now.

Like,

That's really good.

You're a natural.

I have an interpersonal example of a friend giving me feedback and how it started to go bad and then turned good.

I'm not giving too much detail because I don't want to,

You know,

My friend may be listening to this.

But I got some feedback around me not like paying enough attention to the friendship,

Not feeding the friendship,

Not calling enough,

Not,

You know,

Prioritizing the friendship because I tend to be overly busy,

Overly scheduled.

And then I put the most important things lowest on my priority list.

This is a pattern for me.

And like,

My friendships are super important to me.

So I got this feedback.

And as I was getting the feedback,

What I noticed was my defensiveness was just increasing,

Increasing,

Increasing.

And I wanted to give all the examples of why this wasn't true.

And I wanted to prove them wrong.

Like,

No,

This,

You are so important to me,

You are a priority to me.

And what this friend did that allowed me to stay present with her is that she went at it from,

I'm saying this,

Because I care so much about you and our friendship.

And I want this to be different for us.

And when she said that it completely shifted my ability to hear her stepping into my caring mode of my brain as opposed to my threat mode of my brain.

And recognizing that it's feedback is about the benefit of the whole and the benefit of the individual as opposed to about the correction mode.

And we feel like we're being corrected,

We defend,

We feel like we're getting something that's a benefit to us,

Then we're more likely to be able to receive it.

Right,

To make the relationship more successful.

Yeah,

As you were talking,

It actually reminded me of a conversation I had with one of my friends where her feedback to me was really difficult for me to hear that she did a great job where she said,

I have something that I want to talk to you about.

It's really important to me.

And I feel like I can talk to you about this because we've been having a different type of relationship.

We've been more honest with each other recently.

And she had asked me to babysit her dog.

And I was doing other things and out of town and not able to do it.

I said something,

I didn't call the dog by its name.

I called the dog,

Like it,

Which I just realized I did right now again.

So there you go.

Sorry again,

Don't mean to do that.

So I call them the dog instead of the dog's name,

Which is Malakia.

So I didn't say Malakia,

I said the dog.

And for her that felt very dismissive of a family member.

And that she didn't want this to hang over us.

And so she brought it up.

And my initial reaction,

Like you said,

Was,

Oh my gosh,

I saw what I meant.

That wasn't my intention to like start to explain the intentionality with it.

But I just took a breath,

Slow down.

And I was really sorry.

I will do better next time.

I will try my best to do better next time.

And thank you for sharing.

It was like kind of cut to the heart of this people pleaser.

I never want to hurt anybody mode that I have.

Kind of is a segue into feedback around things like making a microaggression or how many times have we've received this is something that was harmful to me.

And then we want to defend or do our intentionality back instead of actually hearing the harm that's being done,

Reflecting back,

Hold on,

Let me take a note.

You know,

I'm actually going to write this down and remember this,

Or I'm going to reflect this back and I'm going to directly acknowledge that what I did was harmful to you.

And I'm sorry that I harmed you.

How can I do better right now?

You know,

How can I,

How can I improve,

Or I'm going to work on improving the X,

Y,

And Z because you told me this.

And that is a,

It's a hard thing to do.

It also is what we need to,

All of us need to do more of and more frequently,

More frequently.

So that's,

That's great.

You know,

One of the things that I want to say about giving feedback and an area in which I've been given feedback and it hasn't gone so well is when feedback has been given in a group setting.

And I think that that's something that happens frequently.

We don't even know that we're doing it.

So that group setting could be feedback that's been given online for a lot of people to read.

That feedback could be given on a Slack channel where everyone in your team reads some kind of critical feedback,

Or that feedback could be done in like a group supervision setting.

And we have to be careful about that because it could set up competition in comparison,

But it also is more vulnerable than when,

Than when you're giving feedback one-on-one.

So I think that's also something to be aware of when we're giving feedback to each other.

Your friend didn't make that comment about the dog when everyone was around and my friend didn't make the comment about me being a bad friend when we were at dinner with a group.

So that's another important thing.

That's where you,

That's where you can hear it.

There's no learning that's going on.

So there's,

There's these concepts in medical schools called pimping.

I don't know if you've ever heard of this,

But it's where the,

The residents and the fellows and the attendees are,

And medical students are all there.

And they're just asking questions with the intent to just like stump the chump kind of thing.

Like at what point are you going to not know how to answer the question?

And so there's a lot of learning contacts that are like this.

And it's,

That's also,

You're trying to get an environment that's actually conducive to people learning and creating one that's,

That's kind of a toxic environment that creates stress.

There's no learning that's going to occur.

And that's one of the more common ways I think feedback is given in training settings for,

For professionals in a lot of ways.

No matter what,

I think we're going to feel vulnerable receiving feedback.

You just feel vulnerable receiving feedback.

And if you're the person that's giving it,

How can you make it as safe an environment as possible for that vulnerability to occur?

That includes things.

I mean,

What we just sort of kind of summarize some of the things we talked about includes things like how you opened with giving feedback,

Perspective taking,

What are their goals taking,

Getting behind their eyes,

Being specific,

Being,

Giving it immediately,

Pausing and slowing down as you're giving it.

Those are all really,

I think it's really important to be aware of and conscious of.

Yeah,

There's a responsibility for the giver and for the receiver in this relationship because of the vulnerability.

So,

So Abby,

I recently asked you to listen to the Daniel Pink episode,

Which has been aired by now.

This is the last episode of our season,

But I'd love for us to model a little bit of how you give feedback as we close this up.

Would you give me some feedback on this Daniel Pink episode that I was really worried about because he's such a big dude in the world and I tend to struggle with interviews like this where he's super famous and who am I to ask him questions.

That's where I go into interviews.

Yeah.

And knowing that about you,

It was very clear to me as I listened to it that you had done your homework and at the same time that you were listening to him.

I think that the conversation overall flowed really well.

There were a couple of points in time initially early on where you got caught up a little bit,

I think in the weeds of the research and how it was done.

And then,

And so maybe some of that distracted from the point that you were trying to make about regret and what are the categories of regret?

I think that's something that everyone can really relate to.

And when you pulled out from him his own story and particularly about his birthday.

And so I think this is where your perceived over preparing comes into play is that you knew that that was coming up and you were able to really make it personal for him.

And that's what I love listening to.

I really appreciate that feedback,

Particularly the specific around when I get caught up in the research and I do that when I feel vulnerable.

I do that as a prove yourself move of,

Okay,

We've got to mention all the research to make sure that this has some credibility to it.

And I had a lot of regret actually after that episode,

I woke up in the morning with piles of regret and the regret was around how come I didn't share more just sort of like real regrets.

I mean,

I shared like little stuff about my family and that's one of my requests for you is that,

Am I getting boring?

Am I just talking about psychological flexibility too much?

Are people sick of it?

And do I talk about my kids too much?

Those are my two feedbacks.

Tell me what to kind Abby.

Yeah.

So the talking about the psychological flexibility and intellectualizing it,

That's great noticing that you do that when you're feeling super vulnerable.

I love the stories about your kids.

It makes it relatable in so many different ways to hear,

It's like you start to see these things and how they play out in real life.

And it's not just this data that's on a page.

This is people's actual real experiences.

And that's what I liked hearing about the fact that his research was actually,

We had surveyed a lot of people and we had come up with these categories and then they're very personal.

So the story is what makes it stick.

So I'm more likely to remember things about regret because I heard the story of your children playing the baseball.

And then if I just heard these categories in this research.

Okay,

That's helpful feedback.

Thank you.

And notice I was kind of also asking there for a little bit of appreciation.

Yeah.

Give me a little student massage Abby.

I didn't follow my own thing.

I should have asked like,

Which type of feedback are you wanting?

Are you wanting the appreciation?

Are you wanting the coaching or the evaluation?

I want all of it.

I love it all.

A little bit of everything is how I like it.

Yeah.

So I think that's,

It makes so much more sense and it will help me to give you better feedback in the future to know that there's always going to be a little bit of like,

Hey,

This was great.

Even though maybe you woke up the next morning,

You didn't feel that way.

I loved it.

I listened to it and it landed and resonated a lot for me.

Well,

Thank you,

Abby.

The thing about Daniel Pink is he's a speechwriter.

He was a speechwriter for Al Gore.

So I went into the interview being like,

No matter what this guy's going to do a good job.

I appreciate your feedback on that.

And for those of you,

Here we are season two,

Ending things.

I am going to,

After we wrap up here,

I'm going to give you a little rundown of what we talked about today.

I'll give you your bullet list,

But I want you to know that we love your feedback and we would appreciate feedback from you.

Not just the warm fuzzies,

But give us some coaching and some evaluation as well,

Because we're going to go into season three and we want this podcast to keep on getting better.

Please send those into me and thank you,

Abby,

For taking the plunge with me.

This was really fun.

Thank you.

I'm really grateful to have been here and have the opportunity to do this.

Fantastic.

All right.

Isn't Abby delightful?

So this feedback episode was super fun and I want to highlight takeaways around receiving and giving feedback so that you can do it for yourself this week.

We started with receiving feedback and the main steps that I want you to remember are what Abby shared around being aware of what type of feedback you want to receive and communicating that.

Do you want appreciation?

Do you want coaching or do you want evaluation?

Number two,

Enter into feedback as an opportunity for challenge and growth.

Stay curious and open and use the information effectively.

Number three,

Slow down and stay present during the feedback.

Take notes,

Take a breath,

Reflect back what you are hearing.

And number four,

Practice self-compassion.

With self-compassion,

You recognize that your overall feelings about yourself are not based on your performance or how people like you or your physical appearance.

And then when you're giving feedback,

Don't forget to perspective take number one,

Pay attention to positionality and power as Abby modeled to us.

Number two,

Include the person that you're giving feedback to in the experience.

Number three,

Be specific and give it as soon as possible and give it frequently.

Finally,

Be aware of some of the pitfalls and feedback things like not doing it in a big group of people or not trying to control the person.

Those are the tips for feedback that I want you to apply in your daily practice this week.

In your daily practice is to give feedback to somebody and ask for feedback from somebody using those principles.

I want to know how it works for you.

Share with us on social media.

Give us some feedback.

That could be the person that you give feedback to is the Your Life in Process podcast.

That's what's going to help us grow.

And I can't wait to see you in a month when I am refreshed and rejuvenated.

And we have some great episodes coming up,

Including the co-founder of ACT,

Kelly Wilson.

He's going to be here.

So stay tuned to Your Life in Process.

Can't wait to share all of that with you in August.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Your Life in Process.

When you enter Your Life in Process,

When you become psychologically flexible,

You become free.

If you like this episode or think it would be helpful to somebody,

Please leave a review over at podchaser.

Com.

And if you have any questions,

You can leave them for me by phone at 805-457-2776 or send me a voicemail by email at podcast at your life in process.

Com.

I want to thank my team,

Craig,

Angela Stubbs,

Ashley Hyatt,

Abby Deal,

And thank you to Ben Gold at Bell and Branch for his original music.

This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only,

And it's not meant to be a substitute for mental health treatment.