11: Mental Health And Messages Of Hope With Tony Ponticello

In this episode, I have such a beautiful conversation with Rev. Tony about mental health issues. We’ve both seen the depths of the ego’s despair and A Course in Miracles has been our pathway out of suffering. His message is one of hope and love.

Get the show notes and takeaways from my website.

Transcript

This is From Anxiety to Love Radio,

The show about undoing anxiety through A Course in Miracles and other pathways of love.

Gain insights and tools to deepen your awareness of the peace that is already in you.

I'm your host Corinne Zupko.

Hey everybody,

I'm thrilled to be back with another episode today.

Two quick announcements before we dive in.

As you know,

My book From Anxiety to Love is coming out in February 2018 on Valentine's Day.

Yay!

It's mid-November 2017 right now and I'm looking for a passion-driven core group of people who are just as excited about this book launch as I am.

And if you would love to help me with this book launch and I will take all the help I can get,

I invite you to join the From Anxiety to Love book launch team and I promise it will be worth your while.

I'm giving some amazing bonuses for joining,

Including a private Facebook group where you'll get a more intimate look at what's been happening behind the scenes,

A copy of the From Anxiety to Love digital meditation album and these are audio meditations that correspond to the meditations in the book,

And I have a number of other bonuses as well,

All in exchange for a couple of really easy things.

So the deadline for signing up is at the end of November.

If this calls to you,

Please consider joining and you can sign up at fromanxietytolove.

Com forward slash book launch team or you can find the link in the show notes.

There are limited spaces available and it is filling up so again please visit fromanxietytolove.

Com forward slash book launch team.

My guest today is Reverend Tony Ponticello.

Reverend Tony has served as the executive minister of the Community Miracles Center since he co-founded it in 1987.

Reverend Tony teaches many classes in A Course in Miracles.

He writes,

He edits their paper publication Miracles Monthly,

He lectures regularly and he runs the largest international in-person Course in Miracles conference.

The next one is coming up in February 2018 in San Francisco.

I'll be speaking at this conference and I'm totally ready to tear up the dance floor and if you follow Course in Miracles teachers on Facebook,

Maybe sometimes some of them come across as serious and you're going to get to see everybody boogie.

So not only will you have some wonderful experiences in all the different breakout sessions,

But it's just so much fun.

We dance,

We eat together and it's three days of just spending a lot of time together.

So this is my second announcement.

You can get tickets for this conference through many different teachers and many different organizations including through Reverend Tony and the CMC or through Miracle Share International which is the nonprofit I co-founded.

Miracle Share has a few remaining tickets that we've reduced below the base price.

So we really like to help folks in attending this.

That's why we've reduced the price below the base price.

So I hope you'll consider joining us for this incredible event in San Francisco and we'd be so grateful if you signed up through Miracle Share.

Again you can see the show notes for the link or visit fromanxietytolove.

Com forward slash CMC to purchase through Miracle Share at the lowest rate around.

So let's dive in.

In today's episode I have such a beautiful conversation with Reverend Tony about mental health issues.

We've both seen the depths of the ego's despair and the course has been our pathway out of suffering and Reverend Tony just gives some beautiful insights and course quotes and shares a lot of his wisdom.

So I'm really psyched to be able to share this episode with you.

Let's listen in to my conversation with Tony.

Welcome everybody.

I am so excited to be here today with Reverend Tony Ponticello.

I listened to Reverend Tony speak multiple times but one time in particular at the Community Miracle Center Conference in Las Vegas and Reverend Tony was up there on stage and bravely shared his story about living with bipolar illness and I was so struck because number one there really is still such a stigma about talking about various mental health issues and being a course student and Tony's story being so powerful I just knew Reverend Tony that I wanted to have you on the show so welcome.

I'm so happy you're here.

Well thank you Corinne.

It's really great to be here talking with you.

I'm really excited to be here.

I'm really honored and delighted and thrilled.

My journey history with mental problems,

Mental illness has been a large part of my life and has definitely flavored part of my life and it has taken me quite a while and a lot of work to get over the stigma myself.

So actually I have talked about publicly having mental health challenges for many many years but obviously doing it up on stage in front of 400 people in Las Vegas and then turning it into a video that then gets seen by over a thousand more you know that was a big coming out and it was great,

Challenging to do but I do think it's important for people with mental health issues to be public but I wouldn't push anybody to do that before they're really ready because just dealing with mental health issues is challenging enough and then dealing with a public reaction to them is you know just adds a layer but I do believe at least for myself that it has been part of my healing and my journey to be able to do that and even though there is still quite a bit of stigma about mental health issues,

I don't believe it's as bad or as there is as much of a stigma as there was like when I was growing up and my father was going through them or even when I was first going through like my first big episode which was in 1980 so you know that was quite a while ago.

I do think the world is more accepting but there's still a huge amount of stigma and people have a lot of preconceived notions about what it means but there are a lot of people who have been dealing with mental health challenges for many years themselves and as soon as you go public about yours,

Other people will come up to you and talk to you about theirs.

And that's why I wanted to have you on the show because I feel like you have a really powerful message that people need to hear and so I was wondering if you could tell us just a little bit about your history,

A little bit about your story.

Yeah,

Okay.

I grew up in a family,

It was a loving family.

I didn't have a bad family life but my father was challenged with mental health issues and was hospitalized many times during my childhood like I think probably the first time was when I was about four or five and then all throughout my childhood and young adulthood from time to time my father would have to go into the hospital and he would be helped usually by a series of electro shock treatments,

What they call electroconvulsive therapy now.

So,

But that was pretty extreme and it was a family secret and you know,

Obviously close relatives knew about it but other people didn't and just growing up in that and just the fear that you have when you're a young child and one of your parents is incapacitated in that manner.

So I grew up in that not knowing at the time that in world terms this is considered hereditary.

I never thought about that.

But then in,

I had little bouts of probably what I would call depression.

I remember the first one happened when I was in college.

You know,

When I was at Cornell and living in the fraternity house just going through a real bad spell of just feeling really low and distracted and having difficulty thinking.

But I got through that one and my first major bout of it was in 1980 after the breakup of a relationship that I was in with a woman and I was very in love with her and that relationship ended and the day that we,

The evening that we broke up,

That evening I didn't sleep.

And within two or three days of that event and not sleeping,

I just cascaded down into this incredibly disturbing place where I was unable to sleep,

Had great difficulty concentrating,

Thinking,

You know,

Just functioning,

Putting one thought together,

Feeling just overwhelmingly terrified because I felt so compromised.

You know,

I mean I had always prided myself as being a bright fella and a sharp mind and suddenly when your ability to think seems so impaired,

I mean it impairs everything,

All your ability to function.

And I went into,

That whole episode probably lasted about 10 weeks.

And in some ways the first time you go through one of these extreme episodes,

It's the worst in some ways because you don't think you're ever going to get any better.

You think,

This is it,

This is life now.

I can't live like this.

This is just awful.

But you know,

I did get better and I did get through that and I was probably pretty okay,

Though I'd have little dips but I was pretty okay for another 20 years really until the year 2000 when I had another big extreme anxiety,

Inability to sleep,

Ensuing depression and again that one I think lasted about eight weeks.

Then it's happened since then a number of times and with very extreme symptoms,

Though as I said,

Once you've been through it once,

You do have the memory that even though you don't see how you're going to get through this,

You did get better previously and so there was always the hope that I just need to keep persevering,

But this will probably shift.

In these episodes where things were really,

Really intense and they lasted for weeks and you weren't sleeping and there was a lot of anxiety,

Was this a time of being like really high like mania or was it mostly anxiety?

It was mostly anxiety with ensuing depression.

I've had a number of different diagnoses.

I doctored with the medical profession every time and I've had many different psychiatrists and I have a lot of love and respect for the psychiatric profession and they have been helpful.

They have never been the final answer for me.

They have done their best.

I don't think they're bad people,

But what they can do or at least what they could do for me was pretty limited and sometimes you end up having to fight your psychiatrist,

Which is they're a pretty powerful presence to have to fight.

It's a whole thing,

But at first they diagnosed me as just depression,

But then there were characteristics of the depression that didn't fit the normal,

So it was not a typical depression.

It was an atypical depression and they bounced around with a lot of different diagnosis.

I think it was in 2000 that I first got somebody said that they thought I was bipolar.

In 2008 when I had another episode,

That doctor was convinced that I was this type two bipolar,

Which was a type of bipolar that did not have a pronounced manic phase.

I never really exhibited what I would call or what even they would call a manic phase,

Though I had characteristics that were sometimes associated with mania,

But that's just sort of my personality.

I'm like a hard driven type a personality and I work a lot and stay up late.

I just do that as sort of my regular way of being,

But sometimes they would say,

Well,

You have an extended mania phase that is sort of incorporated with your basic person.

The diagnosis spin around and around and around.

The one doctor who eventually was really convinced that I was definitely bipolar then got perplexed.

I wasn't responding to the usual medication.

She brought in a consultant psychiatrist and that psychiatrist told her he did not think I was bipolar.

I've had all kinds of diagnosis.

Take your pick.

I have been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder that then triggers depression because if your anxiety is extreme and you can't function,

Then you might tend to get depressed.

I've had a lot of diagnosis.

My father was diagnosed as bipolar and other things and depression.

I don't know.

The whole diagnosis thing,

It's not an exact science.

Right.

No,

It's not.

I love how you said that you just acknowledged your love for all of those doctors and that they do the best they can.

But that it's so limited.

I assume there'll be some people listening to this that are going through mental health challenges.

What I'd like to say is your doctor is a colleague of yours in your mental health issues and they do have expertise,

But you've got to be in charge.

Don't ever just turn over everything and your whole treatment to anybody,

To any doctor or psychologist or 12 step sponsor or anything.

You got to maintain your control over the situation.

Even though you may feel incredibly compromised,

There is wisdom within you even in the midst of your worst times.

We are all our own best counselor and therapist.

You bring professionals in to help you and to give you information and to give you what they can give you,

But you have to maintain a central place of control.

Definitely.

I love just what you said about the wisdom within you.

I think that that's a good transition point because I'd love to hear about how you found A Course in Miracles.

It's interesting because I actually had discovered A Course in Miracles in 1979.

It was actually about just six months or so before my first major episode.

A Course in Miracles was really new in my mind and fresh in my mind,

But this is 1980.

This was a long time ago in the whole A Course in Miracles history.

The course was still pretty new at that time.

What people knew about the course and understood about it was still pretty sketchy and developing.

I actually at one point thought that studying A Course in Miracles had maybe even triggered my episode because it was really breaking up my notion of reality.

When you're in the midst of one of these things,

Feelings of unreality,

You just feel like you're in some sort of strange nightmare existence of life.

I got a little scared of A Course in Miracles and maybe it was too risky,

But then I got through the episode and then I actually realized that A Course in Miracles actually was more the answer than the catalyst of the episode.

I've had a number of different ideas or different things in A Course in Miracles that have helped me.

You asked me and I picked a couple of different quotations.

There were some that were more prevalent and more helpful back in 1980 and then there's some that are more helpful now.

I'll start with the one that struck me in 1980.

It's from the text and it says,

When anything seems to you to be a source of fear,

When any situation strikes you with terror and makes your body tremble and the cold sweat of fear comes over it,

Give it to him to judge for you and say.

.

.

There's this introduction to a prayer that's going to follow,

But just that the course was really acknowledging this extreme fear and terror state that can come over one.

Strikes you with terror,

Makes your body tremble,

Cold sweat of fear.

If you've had real anxiety issues,

That's what happens.

You're terrified,

You're shaking and you're sweating.

At least I was a lot.

Then the prayer.

One,

You're in that state then to think this,

Which is,

Take this from me and look upon it,

Judging it for me.

Let me not see it as a sign of sin and death,

Nor use it for destruction.

Teach me how not to make of it an obstacle to peace,

But let you use it for me to facilitate its coming.

Just that prayer of offering whatever it was that was scaring you to the Holy Spirit,

Asking for help with some confidence or at least some hope that you would get that help.

I wrote that prayer down in very tiny handwriting,

Printed it on a little piece of index card,

Cut it very small.

I used to keep it in my wallet.

These are the days before cell phones,

Smart phones or palm violets or anything.

I always wanted to carry that prayer with me.

Whenever I would feel the fear or the anxiety come up,

I would pull that little piece of paper out and I would recite this,

Take this from me and look upon it,

Judging it for me,

Prayer.

That was very helpful.

Just to know,

Just to carry it.

Sometimes I would just have to look at the prayer on that little piece of paper without even reciting it.

I could just feel the energy behind that prayer and that prayer just symbolized for me offering up whatever the situation was that was scaring me.

It does seem like there's external situations that are scaring you.

At a certain level,

You have to deal with those external situations.

I think people sometimes tend to jump and get abstract about it all and that's fine.

There's a level of healing and working through things where you do have to jump to a higher level and see things from a larger perspective.

There's also a level where you have to deal with the worldly issues that are right in front of you and deal with them effectively.

The Holy Spirit is what helps you do that.

A real practice of turning those things over and asking for help and guidance is very,

Very helpful.

It really was really,

Really helpful to me.

There was that one.

I love that.

Can I jump in?

That is one of my most favorite prayers in the course.

I love that you brought it up because I also have it printed on a little piece of paper and I'm looking at it tacked on my bulletin board.

That prayer,

If we think about it,

Anything that we look with the body's eyes at or that we're feeling and then that we're subsequently judging,

We're going by ourselves,

We're going to misuse that and interpret that as a sign of like the prayer says sin and death and all that.

That first sentence,

Take this from me and look upon it judging it for me,

Is that just that tiny willingness to step back,

To get out of the way,

To let something in us see truly instead of our putting our interpretation and our story on it.

I actually have that quote in my book and I share that that is whenever I see something disturbing,

The time that I had a – I would joke around just to make myself feel better,

But a suicidal squirrel that literally ran right out in front of my tires and I couldn't not hit it because it was right there and I was going to,

Not fast,

But fast enough to not be able to avoid it.

Immediately you just feel so horrible when something like that happens or when you see something terrible,

But that prayer,

Take this from me and look upon it judging it for me is that declaration of saying,

Holy Spirit,

Help,

Help,

I'm willing to see through your eyes instead of my own.

I love that you brought that up.

Oh,

Thank you.

Well,

We got the same issues going on.

We found the same prayer.

Another one that has been very helpful and maybe helpful more with the later episodes was this one.

It's related,

But it says,

And God can bring you there if you are willing to follow the Holy Spirit through seeming terror,

Trusting him not to abandon you and leave you there for it is not his purpose to frighten you,

But only yours.

And then this part that actually you are severely tempted to abandon him at the outside ring of fear,

But he would lead you safely through and far beyond.

So when you go through something,

A mental health challenge and especially if there's fear associated with it or anxiety,

Which there frequently is,

There is a severe temptation to abandon the Holy Spirit right as you're getting into it or right as you're going into it and don't just like don't.

And you know,

So when,

When of course of miracles tells you you're severely tempted,

It probably means you're severely tempted,

Which that and,

And a lot of people and a lot of students and we ourselves sometimes give into that temptation and the temptation can manifest in over reliance on medical profession.

You know,

That's like you don't trust yourself,

You don't trust God,

You're just going to have to overly rely on something external.

You know,

That,

That will probably not help,

Could make things worse.

Uh,

The other thing is,

Is just a temptation just to not deal and not cope and,

And just to believe it,

Just to believe it.

The temptation to believe,

You know,

The spin of your thoughts and you,

You,

Uh,

You need to just,

For me it's just to be aware of that.

And,

Uh,

There is this severe temptation,

Here's a severe temptation that you think you need to change something external in your life.

And then people do all kinds of huge life changes when they're in the midst of some big episode.

They're almost always disastrous and they almost always make things worse.

So,

You know,

When I had my first episode,

You know,

I sold my car,

I moved,

I quit my job.

I mean,

I totally dismantled my life because it seemed like I had to do something and I,

I,

You know,

I asked for help,

My sister came out and she helped me dismantle my life.

And,

Um,

You know,

Okay,

I forgive myself for doing all that.

It just made things worse.

And then after you get through the episode,

You have to put a new life back together.

And usually,

You know,

For me,

I was pretty,

Um,

You know,

I was better,

But you know,

I was still pretty shaky and,

Uh,

To have to put a life and a home and a job and a relationship in a car back together when you're still a little shaky,

Having gone through a major episode is difficult and challenging and prolongs things.

So,

Um,

Uh,

Avoid that severe temptation to make drastic life changes when you're in the midst of,

Uh,

Uh,

Some big episode,

You know,

Don't,

Don't leave your husband.

I mean,

You might have to,

I don't know,

You know,

There's,

There's always,

But you know,

Don't break up the relationships,

Don't leave the marriage,

Don't move,

Just trust that the Holy Spirit is going to walk you through this in some way.

So that,

That,

That quotation is just a,

Just to trust the Holy Spirit and it acknowledges that you're going through seeming terror.

I mean,

It's right,

Quite clear that you're going any,

And it does,

It,

It seems terrifying.

Uh,

But you just got to trust that the Holy Spirit's not gonna abandon you there and don't let go of the Holy Spirit's guidance.

That is such,

Such good advice.

And it even makes me think that when we're in some kind of episode,

I totally agree about refraining from making the big life changes,

But we can even think about even small things that we might regret later.

And the quote that you brought up is just so powerful about not abandoning the Holy Spirit at the outside ring of fear when that temptation feels so strong to want to do something.

And the other message in your teaching is that it's not about fixing things out there.

Like maybe we will have to make adjustments in the external picture,

But that the shift,

The healing is all about coming from,

From within.

And so I love how you said,

Beware of the temptation to believe the spin of your thoughts.

That when we go into these episodes and have these big or little moments of fear,

Anxiety,

Whatever it might look like,

I love that quote.

I don't know who said it,

But you don't have to believe everything that you think.

And if we can remember,

I love your wording specifically,

That temptation to believe the spin of your thoughts.

If we can remember to just hold the Holy Spirit's hand,

Stand firm in that and just trust like you're saying that this is going to pass.

That's huge.

Yeah.

I mean,

If you take it all the way,

I mean,

Obviously people who commit suicide in the midst of episodes like this,

That's just giving into a severe temptation to change things.

So I mean,

What,

What they,

You know,

The spin is that my life doesn't work.

I must change my life in a,

In a,

In a,

In a total way.

And,

Um,

You know,

I remember one,

You know,

As I said,

The,

The psychiatrists,

Um,

Sometimes do help.

One psychiatrist gave me a little pearl of wisdom once when I was telling him that,

You know,

I was having a lot of suicidal thoughts and he says,

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

And,

Uh,

That,

That one helps.

And,

Um,

I've never really been suicidal,

But when,

You know,

It is one of the characteristics of anxiety and depression to have suicidal ideation,

You know,

Suicidal thoughts and whether you act on them or not is,

Um,

You know,

Is,

Is a challenge.

And to me,

Those thoughts are that,

Uh,

Severe temptation to abandon the Holy Spirit's guidance.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well,

And so just to be able to just to stand in them,

You don't,

You know,

Don't be afraid of them.

Uh,

Don't be,

You know,

And I'm talking about it.

Don't be afraid to admit that you're having them.

Um,

They are,

You know,

A characteristic,

A symptom of what you're going through.

They're common.

They're actually average.

And,

Um,

Just stand in them,

Stand with them and,

Um,

And walk through them.

And coming into course terms too,

Like it's the ego's goal to have us experience death before we wake up so we won't wake up.

So we won't remember here and now the truth.

And that's,

That's what the course is helping us with is to wake up to this realization now that we are not these bodies,

That we are eternal,

That nothing can hurt us.

I love what you're saying with just not abandoning the Holy Spirit and not being ashamed of these thoughts or afraid of them or anything like that,

But just sort of seeing them for,

For what they are,

Which is just another form of temptation,

Another form of ego temptation.

And that's it.

In the last couple of years I would say,

Uh,

Probably,

You know,

Just things change in a progression.

The thoughts that really have helped me is this one.

I've spoken of this in a,

In a couple of,

Uh,

Sunday lectures.

It's this one.

It's in an impossible situation.

You can develop your abilities to the point where you can get out of it.

You have a guide on how to develop them,

But you have no commander except yourself.

So when you're in a,

Uh,

A severe mental episode or a challenge,

Everything seems impossible.

You see your external life seems impossible,

Your internal life seems impossible.

But this teaching from a course in miracles that even though it's impossible from where you stand now,

You can develop the abilities that you need with the Holy Spirit's help to get out of that impossible situation.

And you,

You,

You have a guide,

You have the Holy Spirit,

You have Jesus,

But you have to command yourself to do it.

And that one has been really helpful over the past few years.

Um,

Just to know that,

Okay,

Right.

You know,

From where I am right now,

Yeah,

I don't know what to do.

I don't seem to have the ability to do whatever it is that needs to be done to get through this life challenge.

But I'll,

I'll develop the ability.

I'll just keep moving forward one step at a time.

You know,

It goes back to the other quotes.

I'm not going to abandon the Holy Spirit at this outside ring of fear.

I can stand in the terror.

It's okay.

It feels awful,

But I can stand in it.

I've stood in it before and you just keep moving forward one step at a time,

The best you can.

Don't give up.

You just keep walking forward and,

And with the Holy Spirit's help,

You develop whatever ability you need.

I mean,

That's the miracle.

That's really the miracle that you develop the ability,

Even the external abilities to handle life situations that you didn't have before.

If you just keep moving forward with some divine guidance and confidence that that is indeed what's going to happen.

That is just so inspiring and hope filled that we can rest in that trust that we will develop the ability.

We have that guide within us.

We don't have to develop this ability by ourselves.

We have the Holy Spirit's help.

I love that.

Thank you.

Ah,

So beautiful.

So are there any other A Course in Miracles inspired ideas that you felt moved to,

To share or does that feel like you've summed up some,

Some big ones?

Well,

Those,

I mean,

I've summed up the three that came to mind,

The three quotations that came to mind.

I mean,

Just practical on a day to day basis.

Do your lessons.

Uh,

I mean,

I,

You know,

A Course in Miracles is my life path.

It's my spiritual discipline and I do better when I am grounded in it,

When I am doing it on a daily basis.

You know,

There's a lot of talk in the Course in Miracles community,

You know,

Which is a big,

Broad,

Vast community with a lot of different ideas that you do the workbook lessons once or twice or whatever.

But at a certain point you let go of them that they were never designed to be done over and over and over again.

Well,

I do them over and over again.

I do them every year.

So I've done them every year.

And actually this path,

You know,

I'm in the past,

I'm having the best spell of doing them that I think I've ever had in terms of I'm,

I'm doing them more solidly every morning.

I'm reading the lesson.

I'm sometimes reading it twice.

I'm meditating.

I'm,

You know,

Just really bringing a lot of intentionality and focus on the lessons.

You know,

Not everybody I guess is supposed to do the Course that way or it's not everybody's guidance to do the Course that way,

But I'll just put it out there that it's,

It's very helpful for me.

It's very helpful for me to have that grounding,

That,

That spiritual focus.

Um,

I think,

Uh,

You know,

Being involved in an,

Of course,

In miracles community,

Uh,

Can be really good.

Of course,

All these communities are very different and you have to find the one that's really gonna resonate with you that you feel comfortable in.

Um,

I'm not a big one for residential communities.

Uh,

You know,

Cloistering with another group of,

Of course,

A miracle students has never been my particular path.

I'm much more of an urbanite.

I like inner city life.

I like brushing elbows with all the different varieties of people.

But you know,

I have my local church here,

The community miracle center,

My,

My fellowship,

And those people are really significant in my life and provide me with a lot of support and love.

And I mean,

It's,

It's just good to be in a,

In a loving community.

So,

I mean,

I would say since,

You know,

Um,

Probably a lot of people who are listening are course and miracle students,

I would say,

Yeah,

Just ask yourself really how,

How grounded are you in this discipline and,

Um,

Is it time to up that a little bit?

Just a kick it into a little higher gear.

Uh,

It's,

It's a,

It's a great discipline and it's,

It's really helpful for people with a psychological challenges.

You know,

It has been called spiritual psychotherapy by a number of people.

It came through to PhD psychologists.

So,

You know,

It has all of that,

That in it.

Um,

It's a pretty helpful discipline for people with,

Um,

Mental health issues.

It really is.

And I just want to pick up on a few things that you said about asking that question of yourself,

How grounded are you in it?

Because I found for me that it's been most helpful for me to stick to just doing the course and doing it wholeheartedly when I was sort of doing different things,

Multiple things.

And again,

That's going to work for some people,

But for me in particular,

It just led me to a place of feeling confused.

So I found for myself that being completely grounded in it was that structure that I needed to bring myself back to a place of peace and balance and love.

And the other point that you hit on related to that is that we have to listen to our own inner guidance.

And so if we feel guided to do the lessons over and over and over,

There's no reason not to.

There's no,

If other folks feel it's,

You know,

You do it once or twice and that's it,

Then that's their cup of tea.

But we have to always,

Always,

Always tune within.

And so whatever we do,

Whatever practice we do to stay grounded,

Whether it's the lessons every day or reading every day or getting quiet with the Holy Spirit every day,

Whatever that looks like might be different for us.

But I do feel that it's a very important question of asking ourselves how grounded are we in it?

Because I think I can say from what I'm hearing you say and from my own experience that our being grounded in it has been what has helped us out of a lot of the pain that we've been visited by in life.

And if that pain comes again,

We have tools that work.

But it's been a key practice for me also.

Yeah.

And,

You know,

And I have,

Like I said,

Since I've been dealing with these issues since 1980,

You know,

I have a lot of tools,

Psychological tools,

Cognitive behavioral therapy tools that I can draw upon.

And,

You know,

I use whatever I feel guided to use in any particular moment to to help me.

And as we move along,

We we get more tools.

We keep we keep amassing different tools and different ones are useful at different times.

But,

You know,

Something I learned in another in another modality was that,

You know,

Setbacks,

Psychological setbacks are inevitable.

You need to actually anticipate them,

Predispose yourself that you're going to have them so that when they come up,

You're not really like knocked off your center saying,

Oh,

My God,

I thought I had gotten over this and,

You know,

How did it come up again?

I guess I was wrong.

It's just it isn't that this is just what happens.

And you need to be gentle with yourself and you need to you know,

I always predispending right now.

I'm doing really well.

But,

You know,

Next year I could go into a big episode again.

And when I do,

I say when I do instead of if I do,

But when I do,

Just to remember,

I've got all these tools.

I've been through this before.

Not to feel guilty,

Not to make it like some indication that I failed in some way.

You just walk through it with the Holy Spirit's help and and staying confident that you will get through it.

You will develop the abilities that you need to handle whatever situation it is that needs to be handled.

If you just keep walking forward,

Don't give into those severe temptations to abandon the Holy Spirit's guidance.

Just keep going,

Keep turning everything over to the Holy Spirit and you will get through it.

That's so helpful and so beautiful.

And before we get to your takeaway for the listeners,

I just want to go back to something that you said much earlier.

And you said that you had that initial feeling when you first found the course of kind of being scared of it.

And you found that it was actually more of the answer than something to be afraid of.

And I just wanted to come back to that because I think that from the ego's standpoint,

Of course the course is a little bit alarming because it's undoing the ego.

It's helping us wake up to our true selves.

But the thing with the course that I just always think of is,

Is our current thought system working for us?

It's not.

When we're in these episodes,

Pain of any form,

Believing that we are these separate bodies,

Is this thought system working for us?

And it's not.

And so this thought system of the course is another way.

It's the other way out and it's been so helpful for me and I know it's been so helpful for you too.

So I just wanted to highlight that.

Will you share with listeners a takeaway that they can,

If they took one thing from this episode,

What would you like them to walk away with?

I guess what I would really like them to walk away with is a sense that they're not alone.

That they're not alone in their mental health issue.

They're not alone in their anxiety.

That many,

Many millions of people are challenged in the same way.

I think it is the challenge of our society.

One of the great challenges of our society.

There's nothing to be ashamed of.

Obviously you,

Corinne,

Are very public about this.

You got your book coming out really soon about dealing with anxiety,

Dealing with these mental health issues.

I'm obviously really public about it.

People can reach out.

They can reach out to you,

I'm sure in many ways they can reach out to me.

They can reach out to others.

We're all in this together.

Our healing of it is together.

There is a very strong temptation and one of those severe temptations again to feel like it's a very private thing that's happening to you,

But it's not.

It's a real public thing that happens.

That's a challenge that millions and millions of people go through.

Millions and millions of people understand what's happening.

You're not alone.

Reach out together.

We will all heal through this.

That's so true.

We're not alone in this and we are not alone because the Holy Spirit is with us.

If you knew who walks beside you on the way that you have chosen,

Fear would be impossible.

Reverend Tony,

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing your hopeful,

Hopeful message.

I'm just thrilled that you've been able to take the time to be with us.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for asking.

It was a pleasure.

Tony's wisdom was so filled with hope.

I love so many things that he shared.

And in addition to Tony's takeaway that you are not alone,

Here's some takeaways I'd like to add.

Number one,

You've come through challenging times before and you will do it again.

You've stood in terror before you can stand in it again.

Keep moving forward one step at a time the best you can.

Reverend Tony also mentioned suicidal thoughts.

If you or someone you know is ever an immediate danger and needs assistance,

Please call 911 or go to your local hospital.

In the United States,

There's a suicide prevention hotline at 1-800-273-TALK.

That's 1-800-273-8255.

If you're outside of the United States,

You can go to www.

Iasp.

Info.

That's the International Association for Suicide Prevention,

And they can link you with services in your country.

Number two,

You can develop the abilities you need.

I love the course quote that Tony referenced when he talked about this.

He said that when you are in a severe episode,

Everything seems impossible.

But even though it seems impossible from where you stand now,

You can develop the abilities that you need with the Holy Spirit's help to get out of that situation.

So that's where it becomes our choice to be willing to listen to the Holy Spirit instead of ego.

It all comes down to willingness.

Number three,

There is wisdom within you,

Even in your worst of times.

Again,

This is the voice of the Holy Spirit.

It never leaves you.

Number four,

Psychological setbacks are inevitable.

As I talk about in my book,

They're opportunities to grow and practice the miracle working skills that we're learning through the course.

So rather than seeing them as setbacks,

See them as opportunities to put what we are learning into action.

And my last takeaway,

Number five,

I love how Tony brought this up.

Don't be tempted to abandon the Holy Spirit at the outer ring of fear.

Fear is simply temptation to turn away from truth and pump belief into what seems very real.

Hold tight to the Holy Spirit and know that you will get through this.

Mental health issues can be tough.

Our challenges just in daily living can be tough,

But through the course we have tools that work.

I love you.

We are healing together.

And remember to check out my book launch team before the end of November,

2017 at from anxiety to love.

Com forward slash book launch team and check out tickets for the community miracle center conference coming up in February,

2018 that's at from anxiety to love.

Com forward slash CMC.

Thanks so much for listening.

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