Being Together: What Do You Do?

Welcome to the first session of what I'm calling Being Together. Here I spend some time with fellow teachers, Saqib Rizvi, Lou Redmond, and Darius Bashar, discussing how to describe what we do for work in an authentic way. We begin with a short guided meditation and then move into conversational exploration. And somehow we arrive at the topic of God. Maybe all questions ultimately lead to this place. What do you do?

Transcript

I imagine you might be familiar with me. My name is Charles, And I can just maybe introduce what this is or might be, Although we don't know exactly what it's going to be. This is a group of Insight Timer teachers that we've been meeting together for the past several years on a weekly basis. And it's become a really special part of my life. And we just thought we would try. Sharing it with you as insight timer has opened up the possibility for video So we wanted to experiment with the four of us meeting in this format and seeing how it goes to just share it with you. So we have a certain way that we go about meeting each week and we'll kind of do something similar to that. But really, This is experimental and we're just kind of going to see what happens. So along with that, Something that we do to begin each one of these sessions is something called a withhold. Which is like. . . It's a cool thing that can be implemented in a variety of different ways, But it's just like a space before we get started into whatever it is that we're going to be doing where people can share. Whatever they might have to share that maybe feels separate from the exploration itself, Or that might feel good to share at the outset. To kind of allow you to be more present during the time. That being said, You don't have to share it right away, But any of you, And maybe it would be a chance to maybe introduce each other. But you could see if you have any withholds right now before we move into this exploration. Together. I can go. So, Um, Yeah, Withhold would be just expressing what I'm feeling right now. And because this is like a new terrain for us and videos for the first time, You know, That we're four together, We are kind of recording this video. We don't usually record, But we just, You know, Talk. So I'm just kind of reflecting on what how do I show up in this video? And for that, For me, It is being, I think two words are coming up, Being mindful and also being relaxed. Because, You know, Through mindfulness, I'm really present with what's happening. But also with being relaxed, I can be myself in this video. So I'm just giving myself the permission to be myself in this video. And just another withhold is that, You know, I am experiencing some cough. I was diagnosed with chronic bronchitis in my childhood. So I have like seasons of cough. So this is kind of the season of cough. So, Yeah, I just want to ask for your pardon if I cough in between. I like that too. Mindful and relaxed uh which is sort of nice to notice too because there's just the four of us here but you could also feel maybe some presence of someone else or other people that could add to a certain tension that maybe doesn't need to exist. But it also could be excitement, Like energy, The possibility of sharing this. More broadly. So I just appreciate. You saying that, And I can feel the permission, I think, For myself, Too, To. . . Relax. There could also be the need to introduce people at the outset. I think I might feel comfortable just letting that happen. Organically like when the time feels right as opposed to having to move into a standard type of introduction certainly you're free to do that because I felt like pulled to maybe introduce each person. But I think on the relaxed side, It might be nice to just kind of let that happen organically if that works for everybody. Yeah, Any other withholds or anything you might just like to say? Or express right now. I can jump in. Yeah, This is weird. This is totally different. I appreciate Saka for saying that. It felt good hearing you say that. This is what we've been doing for several years and we go deep and we get real personal and intimate and it's been tremendously valuable. End. It's now televised. You know, So I am aware of that. And I think my intention, Perhaps our intention was. Understanding that cost that there's now a whole other group of people watching this, The cost of that. But stepping into that. With a curiosity around maybe there could be something valuable for all of our communities and Insate Timer in these conversations that have brought so much to us. It's obvious that this is being recorded, But it's nice to just say it out loud and be like, Oh, Yeah, It's the same, But also totally different. Yeah, Just you saying that to maybe think that there could even be a I don't know how to describe it, But like a unique added benefit for us. In the space to like to add some extra element of. Vulnerability. Where it could otherwise feel quite comfortable. Maybe some added element that could even allow us to go possibly deeper. Together because there is some of that feeling like it just gave me the feeling of like being on the surface of something and then with the possibility to go. In, But there being some barrier, Maybe like. To getting there. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, It's not trying to make this our own mastermind. But instead being open to this new thing that's here. The new possibilities that are also available here. Yeah, Anything else to share? Just right now. Not that there needs to be. I guess I noticed my tendency. . . To want to perform and to like knowing, Okay, Well, Someone's going to be listening to this. So what's a, What would be valuable for them? Like, How do we. Elicit them doing their own withholds with their people. There's always something in me that's trying to impart a lesson. I'm just noticing that part. Really loud of like, Lou, You have, You should have a good withhold to show an example of what a withhold is so people can use it and make it valuable for them. So just naming that because it's, You know, I think it's a really good intention. Like it's a thing that's helped me in my work and. Is that going to get in the way of. . . More of a deeper experience that we all can have and just trust that just that is valuable for us. And, You know, We are all, I know, Big fans of Rick Rubin that if we enjoy doing this, Can we trust that the audience may enjoy it or it doesn't even matter? I love that too. It's like cliche i guess but like to have that as an option of something to say which is the thing that's like the subtext of I have an urge to say this thing. But I have the like. Insecurity about what's my motivation for saying it so i i can just say that like uh i have an insecurity about saying the thing and that could be a thing which can just like, I feel like it is a perfect sort of withhold. Example. OK, Well, I realize also it won't be as long as we usually go for for this one. So maybe we can just like drop into a little guided meditative. Something guided by me. And I'll facilitate the space possibly just for a question. I think a pretty simple question. And then it'll just be a few minutes longer, I think, After the meditation here in our first time together to explore. How you answer this question. It's a very common question. But one, We might find ourselves answering potentially on autopilot or coming up with a pretty clear script. My guidance will be to allow maybe an answer to just come as a discovery in this moment to see what happens. Okay, So you can. . . Make any adjustments to your body, To your surroundings. So just be a few minutes of kind of settling, Resetting, Reopening. You can notice if there's any tension in the body that might like to be released or softened or maybe let go of a little bit. And if you like here, Your eyes can be closed. They don't have to be, But if that feels right, They can. And maybe a few deep breaths or just letting the breath breathe. However, It might like to noticing if there's any. Constricting of the breath that's happening and just kind of letting it pass through you. Unblocked and open channel for the breath. Maybe just giving yourself permission to be exactly as you are right now. Maybe releasing any sense of pressure in this moment. On yourself and on others. And becoming just a little bit more present, Whatever that means to you. Just a little bit more fully here. Noticing if there's any energy that might be habitually moving then and there. And seeing if you can corral it and bring it back. To just being here. And open to the complete mystery of present moment awareness. And now in this space of presence, I have a question. Maybe it's like a two-part question. It's one that might be a pretty familiar one. But I would like to give you permission here. To answer just in the way that you would really like to, Or that feels maybe the most true. Least concerned about how someone might receive it or how they might interpret it or if they would understand it. And just the way that you feel like answering it. Honestly, In this moment. What do you do? This is the question, Maybe a stranger or maybe a. Small talk. Situation but here really going inside and finding out. What is it that I do? So just I'll leave you a little bit of space here. To see if you can come at some answer. It could be detailed, It could be quite simple. Could maybe make no sense. Question is just what do you do? And just see what arises for a little while. It might be I blank or it might be I am N or I am a blank. And for a little while longer, Just kind of owning this answer. Physically owning the answer. Whatever feels most true for you. Okay now you might just take a few more deep breaths here. And allow the body to release again, Relax again. Become present again. And then very gradually If your eyes were closed. You can just allow them to reopen whenever they feel like it. No rush. OK, We might just leave a little while longer here. If everyone's comfortable, Just maybe answering. And maybe we could go in the order of. . . Just whoever volunteers. To answer with their questions. Answer to the question coming from here. Maybe it was a really easy one or obvious one or maybe it's something kind of new for you. But what do you do? Yeah, I can go because I had something new emerge, Which was really, Really cool. And I just followed this trail of what do I do? And there's like the initial. . . Script that you mentioned i think you prefaced everything really well to like not go with the script And I'm still like, Don't even really know the script. I'm still figuring out what that script is. I'm also in a time in my life right now where it feels like that script is super. . . Flexible and changing. And so what came to mind was actually a Rumi quote and a song that I learned to sing called Let the Beauty of What You Love Be What You Do. And so that came to mind, And I was thinking, Okay, What's the beauty of what I love? I feel like that's the first step before finding what to do. What's the beauty of what I love? And then what came to me was, You know, I love the fullness of feeling alive. Like it was almost like a feeling that I'm searching for. This experience of being fully alive. And in the last six months, I've been under understanding this word zoe which apparently is a in the bible like hundreds of times it's a greek for meaning absolute fullness of life And when I heard this word, It's like, Yes, That's what. I know that feeling, I know that state, And I know that's the life that I'm creating in many ways of absolute fullness of life. Work, Relationships, Just in every aspect of life. And so when I thought of, Well, What I do. . . The word that's always been a North Star for me is inspire. And so what emerged from those. . . Two things was I inspire. Fullness of life. And the caveat is I really believe that we have to be. When we think of purpose, It's more of a being and then doing. And so in my own journey of being. Fullness of life That's a way that I am inspiring. Fullness of life in other people. And then the doing. I call it the opportunities. Okay, What are the opportunities? It's the meditations, Talks, All those things that we, I think, All do, But it's at a deeper level, Inspiring fullness of life. So if I hear that right, It's like. . . Maybe the quote unquote work portion of it is almost secondary or it's like a byproduct of the. The way of living. Exactly. Like I think people conflate purpose and opportunity and they seek opportunities, But they're really wanting purpose. It's like, You know, Right now we all have opportunities to create meditations. And I've been thinking about this because I have a session on Wednesday where I'm exploring this. So it's fresh in my mind. I think purpose is something that we would have been able to do. 300 years ago. And so let's say just simply like no one was a life coach 300 years ago. So if you think your purpose is being a life coach, I would say that's an opportunity to live your purpose. Or no one was recording meditations 300 years. They were leading meditations. They weren't recording it. So we have an opportunity, But it's not my purpose. And so I think a purpose is framing it more as a way of being. It's like, Well, Then the opportunities come. I can always live my purpose right now. I can go out to the grocery store and inspire the fullness of life. I can go out there. To wait for an opportunity um and i think starting with that i think relieves a lot of people to think i need to find that one thing that i'm here to do which they conflate the purpose with the opportunity if that makes sense Go ahead. Well, Yeah, Let me just say, Too, I guess. I could call it like a mid-session withhold, Like just for the sake of where you all stand, How do you feel about the time of like the session? Like, Do we have a sense of, I just want to be aware. So I'm facilitating us to kind of. Like end at a certain time. Um, You all have a sense of what feels right? I think it's the first one. Yeah. I think we flow a little. Yeah. I know we talked about like 30 minutes. Yeah. Let's try that, But like not stop it prematurely. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Sounds good. Because I was also saying or thinking, Which maybe just naturally will happen, Like Lou shares this and maybe that just. Inspires. Conversation as it relates to it doesn't have to move necessarily into the next person. Shifting or away from that response. Yeah, I don't think it's fluid. It's not set. I'm geeking out here. I love behind-the-scenes stuff. Like we're showing you how this thing is being made. And it's. As a fan, I love watching this stuff and just seeing the thought process. Yeah, Let's flow, See what happens. Sounds good. Because there's something that Lou said there, Like the fullness of life thing. It was making me think of. . . I feel like increasingly, Maybe as it relates to opportunities I find myself using that as a barometer for what to say yes to and what to say no to. Like, Does this opportunity, While it might very logistically be like, Yeah, I should obviously do that because it presents these potential outcomes or. Returns. But then I'm like, I know I wouldn't really want to do it. Or when the time comes to do that task, I'll be like, I have to do that thing. That feels like not feeling fully alive. But then I also wonder sometimes if I might just. . . Avoid doing those things and say that they're not fully alive in my mind. Whereas I could maybe engage with them in a different way. This maybe sounds like not making sense because I'm just thinking of a specific example recently. It was an opportunity from insight timer. Uh, And like they emailed me as it relates to something related to therapy, Um, And like participating in some way with the therapy therapist community, Uh, You know, On these certain topics and immediately I find it like boring basically. Um, Like I don't want to fit into the, You know, Prescribed, Uh, I am this type of therapist. And even my body language, I realize it's judgmental. None of that has to be that way. Like if you identify in a certain way, Then there's no problem with that. But I noticed I have some like resistance to a certain way of being. And I get this particular email and I immediately color it in a certain way. And I might have the tendency to be like, No, I don't want to do that. But I paused and then responded in a way that I was like, Let me just respond in a way that feels true to me. And they can say no to that and that'd be fine um and then they responded like positively to that uh because i was like i just want to make sure you're you're reaching out to the right person because i feel like i don't maybe identify with this thing uh and then they're like yeah that's great uh go in the direction that you want to go in So that may or may not make sense, But I noticed like the aliveness thing. Sometimes can maybe as a good guide, But it can also like maybe block me to certain opportunities. Just a quick feedback on that because it reminds me of, I don't know if you guys have listened to or read the Michael Singer Surrender Experiment. I listened to it again recently for like the third time. And it's an example of. . . Exactly what you're saying, Charles. Not just doing what you want. Like, Oh my gosh, This doesn't light me up. There were so many times in his life where life was asking him to do something that he really didn't want to do. And his whole thing was, If I surrender to this and trust the flow of life, It's going to bring him to a much better place than he could have created. So, Yeah, I think we're touching on some paradoxical things here. And how do we know? How do we know what's best for us? It makes me. . . Wonder what's the opposite of alive because i think sometimes people think the opposite of alive is sad or angry or you know But if you zoom out, It's like. . . The alive human experience has space for rage, Has space for grief. So it's not just following your joy. You know, Maybe the opposite of alive is like dull or boring, You know, Or like numb or dim, You know, So like that example, Charles, Maybe it's like. If that felt boring to you, You know, That could maybe be, Yeah, That makes sense. But similar to what Lou's saying, It's like, It's not just following the bliss. It's like the alive, Like. . . Parts of life sometimes suck when you're in them. But they're truly like emotionally alive. And necessary. I think that's where the decision comes from. Is this the ego which is deciding or is it like the DAO or the universe or the flow? Because ego might be attached to doing. . . Joyful things or blissful things or things that only bring joy whereas the Dao is like Sometimes you have to do things which are hard or which you don't like or which feel boring, As Darius said. But then that is equally important to do. So I think when that happens, I kind of reflect, Is this my ego attached to joy or bliss or just doing things which I enjoy? Is the DAO asking me to do something hard, Which I might be resisting, If that makes sense? It does, Yeah. So I think in my example, Too, There was probably a part of me that Who knows what will happen? I don't know if I'm even going to end up doing the thing. But knew that it was something maybe to. . . To lean into or to respond to because I asked my wife about it, Whereas I could have just said no. So maybe by asking her about it, I think I knew that I was going to receive pushback from her because she tends to be like a. . . Like she'll give me the other side, Which is really valuable, I think. She was like, Yeah, That makes sense. But also, I think you might just be dismissing it maybe prematurely when you could just offer to do it in the way that you want to do it. So I think by me asking, There was like some sort of internal awareness. Of like it is maybe the Tao. And who knows what the if you can never know for sure if it's the Tao or the ego. And I suppose ego is probably ultimately always still involved in some way. But yeah, Just as I hear you reflect that back, I wonder if there was a part of me that just kind of. . . I wouldn't have asked her for her perspective, If not for like wanting some pushback. Even that makes me ask, So is the ego not a part of human aliveness? You know, It's like, What is not alive? Yeah, I think I would say if the ego works in alignment with the Tao or the universe or flow, Whatever we want to call that, Then it's alive. But if there is a resistance or a battle between the ego and what the flow is, Then I feel it's not that alive. For example, Trying to flow upstream, Whereas the stream is taking you. Although flowing upstream can also be a joyous activity in some way. Make you feel alive. But more in the sense of. . . If you're aware that that's what you're doing, Maybe. Yeah. Or sometimes it needs to suck You do that. It sucks. You feel like crap. And that. . . Contributes to the journey. You know what I mean? It's like. . . It's a complicated or maybe really simple. Thing alive because you hear it a lot like i just want to feel alive And it's like, Are you saying I just want to be happy in stealth? Or are you like, Oh, No, I want the fullness of the human experience? Because it makes me think about, Like you said, Alive can be all those different emotions. See if I can articulate this, But there could be something there where there's the. . . I could feel sad. Or I could feel like frustrated or I'm in the thick of the work and I'm like, And I'm not liking it. But I can be fully accepting of that because I know it's part of it. And that's like that is alive. Like and I know it and I know this is part of the thing or I feel intense sadness and pain. But I'm not like resisting the reality of that because I know I just I know it's a part of being alive. Maybe there's something like a distinction of I feel those and I wish that they didn't exist or I wish that I didn't have to feel them. It makes me think of the cliche, Too, Of how the distinction between pain and suffering. The pain is an inevitability, The suffering is the optional thing where you're resisting the existence of these feelings. I don't know if that could be maybe some distinction of aliveness, The aliveness that, Of course, Like you said, Includes all the different emotions and experiences of being a human. But you embrace the reality of all those different. . . Parts of it or the part where it's like, Yeah, I don't want this and I don't want this. I only want this. It's like. . . A few moments in my life where I felt. Incredibly alive happened in You guys familiar with like core energetics or radical aliveness like therapy? It's a it's a. Kind of. . . Like extreme form of therapy where I think radical aliveness, Core energetics is a modality. Radical aliveness is a brand that's done in group. And you essentially energize the ego. Like the darkest marginalized parts of you in a, You need a master facilitator in a, You know, This group that holds it together too. And. You explore the shadow. It's very informed by Carl Jung and that school of therapy and psychology. And it's like. There's exercises where you have like a cube, For example. And you have a mallet. And you got gloves on and you just smash. And the facilitator, The therapist, Sometimes done in group, Have to. Clue into like, What is that thing you are not saying? It's sort of like a radical withhold. And they figure it out in a very simple language and they invite you to smash the cube and say the thing that you've been terrified to say your whole life. And it's like the ego gets super energized. And the point of this isn't to like just walk out in rage. But instead, If you go to the edge of whatever that emotion that you've been hiding. You discover God, You discover self and spirit. You know, And it really does feel alive. Um, And so it's like. . . There's something about that that feels connected to this conversation around like, Is it certain feelings we are picking or are we actually open to the full spectrum? I think the essence of what we're talking about is living with an open heart, An undefended heart. Because it's those wounds and protectors. That say, No, This is not welcomed, Let's shut that down. And it's going to shut down us. There's a common thing that the more heartbreak we can feel, The more joy we can feel because our hearts are actually fully open. And the reason we're not in fullness of life is all of those woundings, All of those shadow parts that are just protecting us in some way from not feeling the thing we're afraid to feel, But it's also protecting us in some ways from. . . Feeling so much more. So I really do think I agree, Darius, That it is feeling, Feeling period, All of it. And being able to transmute it, I think there's. . . It's like going to the gym. You have to work on it. You might not be able to lift the hardest thing the first day. You don't want to overextend because that could be dangerous to put more weight on the bar and try to lift it and hurt yourself. We're going deep, Guys. I like it. I think to your question, Charles, What do you do? I'll also share. I think it's in also relation to what we were discussing till now. The answer that came to me was, Simple, I, B. And like you said I and fill in the blanks, The only word that came was B. And. . . You have to expand on that. I would say that Lately, I feel that there are phases in my life when I feel like the. . . When I'm guided by something greater than me, You know, And I could maybe call it the DAO or anything like that or the universe. And there are times when I feel that. There's no guidance coming and it's always the ego deciding. And when I feel it's the ego deciding, Then. . . I know that I'm thinking a lot. I'm rationalizing a lot. Should I do this? Should I do that? Let's plan. Let's analyze. Whereas when the Tao speaks, It's just annoying. I just know. And so at times I don't feel that annoying. And so lately I made this intention that I have to really surrender and not let the ego take control so much. Although ego is in alignment with what the Tao is. When they work in alignment the the DAO and the ego and ego being a part of the DAO somehow But the more I surrender, Like trying to think from the mind and the more I be, The more life feels more aligned. And I know that this is the right thing for me to do. But whereas if I'm thinking that this is what I should do. It might be something great. I might end up doing some great things and a lot of money. Create some great work, But somehow it is not still aligned with who I am. And sometimes when I when I just be whatever work I do. Might not create that impact but still it feels like very good and very aligned so like that is just when i when i be i know that my life is like just flowing in the right direction um whereas When the ego takes control, It somehow doesn't. Which made me wonder, Too, If maybe that's what so many people are. . . Working for, Consciously or unconsciously, To be able to reach a point at which I can just be. Like that might be the reason why I'm doing so much so I can finally. Have the Ability to breathe or like relax, But not yet. And I like that idea of that's like my occupation is to to be. I was also just thinking of how it would be a pretty fun answer to give in response to someone asking you that question. Oh, And like, What do you do? I'd be and like to just see if they what they say or how they respond. But it did remind me to it. This has been a really cool thing for me on Insight Timer in my courses and like the comments sections have become these. It's a pretty cool part of my life because I go through and I respond to questions and comments in my courses every day. And it seems like that has fed the energy of people leaving more and more. I'm constantly learning from them And then someone will provide a new perspective or a new quote or a new like like no matter any time I go in there, I'm going to get something new. From people being willing to share. And something someone said the other day just reminded me of that. They were like, It's like we are. . . It's like we're looking for. . . A noun. But what we're actually looking for is a verb. And I just thought that was really cool. And that's what that made me think of. It's like, You know, You might have some implied assumption that you're on the search for a noun, Whatever that search might be. But really what you're looking for is a verb. You're going to miss it no matter what, Because there's the implied notion that, Like, It's a noun, It's a fixed thing. And that just immediately came to my mind, Like, You know, What am I? Because the mind has attached to some idea of a noun label. And then it's fun to break that rule and be like, To replace it with. . . A verb or something that doesn't fit into that familiar. Paradigm. Yeah, I love that. That also reminds me of like what Alan Watts said that, Like, You know, We usually call it a tree, But it is not actually a tree stream. Because every moment it's changing, But the mind has a tendency to fix it somehow. There's an article that the Center for Action and Contemplation. . . Rights like as part of their monthly offerings or something, But they call it one-ing. So instead of like we are all one, Actually, No, We're all one-ing. We're on the way towards, Like we're trying to one. Like in an ultimate sense, You might say we are one, But. . . It kind of gives, I don't know, Reminds me of the energy that we're talking about here. Such a cool distinction to talk about process and outcome in a different way. Also reminds me of my nine month old baby. He's just being, You know, He like wakes up and he's like, I'm up. What are we doing? Let's do the thing. You know? At that level of consciousness, He doesn't maybe understand. . . Human job work. And it's just being, Oh, There's a, We recently gave him a potato. And it's like, We have all these toys for him, But the potato. Oh my gosh, Just playing with the potato. And it's like, Oh, There's the next toy. I'm just going to be here with this next thing. So it's funny that we do all this work to sort of like come back to where we started. Yeah, Maybe that's the art form. Because the human mind is such like a miracle of, Our ability to use words and to learn skills and things like. But then so easily we lose access to that. Maybe the most essential thing, Which is his like state of mind right now, Which is so pure. But to find some way to combine those where you're still deeply rooted in. Being, But then you can use your words so you can use your skills and techniques and all this stuff as a way of expressing and playing with that. Energy um or like to be aware of me and inevitably there is some egoic element of me, But to not be beholden to that and mainly be like rooted in the. The me that is maybe the same awareness that he has. That all of us have always had and still have. It's just like the. . . Yeah, Being, Wonder, Amazing. Consciousness thing. I can answer your original question, Charles. I love your prompting. It's so good. It's so simple. And it's so. . . Good at like detecting the decoy answer and inviting something else. Um, Yeah, There's a couple of key moments from like, Oh, That's my answer. And then you kind of like, Oh, Try to step away from that script. So I'm going to, I don't think I've ever, No, I've never said this. So this is what came through only after your third or fourth prompting. And I believe this is true for everyone, But like it was. When you said I am, I'm like, This feels risky and I don't want to say it to you guys, Let alone whoever else is watching, But it's actually true. I really do believe I am. Just like you are God. I am God. Experiencing universe through soul. That has chosen a human experience. To explore. Experience and then express. You know, So as you were guiding us in that little practice, I just saw like the coming down to that level. And that last level is, For me, Is really important. Experience, Explore, Express. You know, God, Spirit, God, Universe, Spirit, Human. To express something in the human form. Which kind of ties back to the conversation earlier around like the full spectrum of the human form. Do you have a sense of what that. . . The thing to express. Is or like is that also god I think, Like, Imagine all the manifestations of God. So all of it. There's no one thing, No one way. There's no one like you won an Oscar. So your expression is more important than this person over here who. Made a garden or made an omelet or as long as it's like it's alive like we talked about right as long as it's um yeah everyone's version is different I think it depends how you do it. If it's done with love, With care. With your whole being. There's behind me, You see a poem by Khalil Gibran called On Work. And one of the last lines in the poem is like, It's. . . If you bake bread with indifference, You bake a bitter bread that feeds but half man's hunger. And then there's another one, And then he says, Like, If you sing but love not the singing, Your voice muffles the ears. Of people basically like so it's not even this thing that we think would be beautiful we might they might have a beautiful voice but if they're like i actually hate what i'm doing then you're actually not adding to the harmony of the world. You're not actually channeling what God's wanting to bring through you to use your experience. I really think it's. . . It's never about the doing. It's always about what you're putting into what you're doing, How you're doing it. And I'll just say, Like, I noticed. . . Just to speak it, Because it feels like a withhold, But when you said it, And I know it was risky for you to say, But I also, I noticed a little like, Clenching in it like it almost felt it felt scary for me to hear or to like think about that or I don't know there was some Why didn't this be scary for you to hear? What's the scary part? No, Maybe not scary, But I don't know. It feels scary for me to say. Totally. Because I usually start over here. Soul having human experience. But the actual truth is I believe soul is a manifestation of universe is a manifestation of God. So it's like God, You know, It feels risky to say I am God. Yeah, And I felt the risk you took, And I also had a. . . Questioning if I Do I believe that? And is it. . . There's a. . . There's a sense that if I'm trying to even name God, I'm missing it. If I'm trying to say that I am something that I can't quite name, Then there's something that I feel like. . . I'm missing. So there's almost a part of me being like, Yeah, Just noticing maybe. . . A doubt in in it at the same time i think i would have sometimes said the same thing too so i'm almost like reflecting my own experience of that answer and how I feel like it's changed to like claim that in a way. I love this conversation and it's like, It's a. . . I feel like everyone I've had this conversation with disagrees with me, Which is so interesting. Do you believe there's anything? Can you point to anything that is not God? I think there are things that are in service. There's good and bad. I think we've had this conversation before because I'm remembering this answer. Yeah, Maybe in a non-dual. . . Frame. We could say this, But I don't know. I've never experienced quite that state to know. But I do think there are things that are anti-life and that are opposing life, That are opposing benevolence. Do you believe after life, Before life is not God? No, I believe that is before and after where we are going. And. . . Are there levels to it? I don't know. Like there's. . . I don't know either. What the heck is Dante's Inferno and Purgatory? There might be levels to where we actually go. In the samskara, On the Buddhist term, We didn't get there. We didn't make it out. There's so many of these different things on what. . . I've just seen a lot of wacky stuff in the spiritual world to have an understanding and a humility that just because it's coming from spirit, That it may not always be of our best benefit. I think there's some wacky side streets that I've walked down the spiritual path to have some kind of. . . It's actually very controversial. Because all of the worst in. . . Humanity, I am basically saying is also God. Well, That I think that I have an easier time like believing that. I don't know why. It's like I have a I love the Joseph Campbell quote like the world's. A mess. It's always going to be a mess. Stop trying to change the world, Change yourself. I believe in that core philosophy, And can we trust that war is breaking out? That's the hardest thing. How can you say that everything's God when wars are breaking out? I think it's because we can't understand what needs to happen in a very cosmic way. So I do believe that in some sense, But I don't know. There's like some more nuance here that I've been just. . . Exploring in my own experience, Too. That is what you said about the question that you asked. I think it's a beautiful question. And that just reminds me of a Sufi proverb. And it says that wherever you turn, There is the face of God. Wherever you run, There is the face of God. And this is something I used to reflect on, Especially when I would listen that God is omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient. Then if God is omnipresent in everything, Then. . . How is this not God? How is Hitler, For example, Not a part of God or that? A lot of that, You know, In my, This is my personal opinion and, You know, This might, Some might not agree with this, That there's a lot of religious connotation of like ignoring darkness and like judging darkness and judging quote unquote, You know, What we call evil. And like only focusing on the light, Whereas like in my understanding, In my experience, God is both light and dark both. And that also like reminds me of Carl Jung's quote when he said that enlightenment cannot be achieved by just imagining figures of light, But making the darkness conscious. And so it's kind of like for me that God represents everything and not just like the light part. It's so interesting how much it elicits like just that word. I mean, It could just bring up a big discussion of what the word means as it's safer maybe to say, Like, I am the universe or I am. Spirit or something but if you know maybe just notice god maybe that's the one that feels the truest and just the feeling of just owning it and saying it. And the fear of how it's received. It's interesting with like, I just released the course, The God note. And like, I noticed that feeling too. I also like kind of enjoy it. I don't know if you relate to that Darius at all. Like there's a part of me that wants to. Just like invite that even because I know it's a misperception or it's like a misjudgment of like. What I'm attempting to say because I know what I'm saying. That's new for me. Yeah, I did not like it. Now I like it because I reframed it. We've talked about this before, Charles. It was the number one reason I get unfollows. And people will literally jump in the comments and say, I liked you so much until you said, God, I'm out of here, Unsubscribed. I'm like, You could just unsubscribe. You don't need to say that whole thing. Um, But the reframe for me became. . . I understand people have had really bad experiences with God. That's very legitimate and valid. People also have had really bad experiences with artists, With men, With money, With art. These are concepts. That I really believe in. And just because there's a few people that have done really bad things with them, I'm not going to abandon those concepts. How dare they try to steal those from us? You know, I'm going to be a stand for a good example of those things. And that reframe helped me like, Okay, I can own the truth. This is a place where I'm hiding myself by calling it universe. I respect people if they call it different things, But that's not actually the experience I'm having. And I would say, Like. . . What you said, Lou, I mean, I feel like it can't ultimately be described like whatever it is, But then. You can just use a word that feels like it's closest to the. To the truth of it, Given that you can't put it into words. And I've just noticed that. And I imagine it will keep changing. But for me, God feels like the least. Conceptually tethered relative to at least recently like to the dao or buddha or universe or it's like god feels the most just like kind of energetic To me, So that's the one that feels kind of true. Maybe there's even something kind of nice about it feeling like risky or scary relative to other ones feeling safe that like makes it. Truer? Or something. And I'll just share this too as it relates to the evil notion. Um, Can you tell me what you think about this? But to me, It's. Evil just makes perfect sense to me just because at least the way that I think about it, It's like. Ego. That has suffered the illusion of separateness. And so then it acts for itself. And it is still God. But it's like a cancer cluster in the body that doesn't realize that it's killing its host. But it's so deeply wired in it that it has to survive. So it's going to keep trying to feed on the host. But it's killing itself. It doesn't realize that. And then it so easily pulls in other people's energy. You get pulled into that separateness and hate. And it's like hurt people, Hurt people, That kind of thing. It's just going to keep feeding itself But to me, It just makes sense. I mean, That to me connects sort of to the Buddha's Four Noble Truths. And it's like all of our suffering is rooted in our sense of separateness and how we have a deeply embedded sense of separateness. Connected to the, You know, The notion of a name and a whole story of me and however deeply attached I am to that separateness is going to lead me to act in ways that are evil because I'm functioning based on the false perception of reality. And then that will just feed more evil to me, Maybe then. Like evil is such a loaded word because it could just be like unskillful action or. Incorrect action or something like that. That's where it lives to me. At least that for me is helpful because it removes my sense of like, Why is this happening? Because to me, It just makes a lot of sense that there would be so much hate and conflict because so much of the world is operating based on a misperception of reality that I am a separate entity and I need to protect those like me. There's so much of this. Uh rooted in the notion of separateness and then that leads to evil and evil wants more evil and it feeds on more evil but it's still all is god it's all the host body um if that makes sense. I know we're not really like, Oh, I guess I could share with you guys, But in my mind, It's like thinking of the audience here. I came. . . I came up to evil in a recent plant medicine journey, And it was horrifying to be with. It's just led me down a path of trying to understand my own inability to be with darkness. And it led me to a book that I read. Um, If anyone's interested in the topic of evil, It's such a weird thing to like promote, But, Uh, I don't know if you ever heard the book, The roadless traveled. It's like a classic personal growth book. Um, Not that book, But it's by the same author, Scott Peck. Um, And he wrote this book called people of the lie, Um, And explores some, Yeah, It's really fascinating to understand a bit more. So if that calls to you for whatever reason, It might call to you, Um, That would be a book to. To check out um and a lot of it's like a lot of it that i've taken from it is is a lot like lies lies are such a big part of evil like not being truthful with ourself not being truthful with others like that's a really malignant way that evil kind of is spreading um on a on a day-to-day basis and you know i i like once we tell the truth we we we shift that in some ways and i think like the opposite of evil being live is really interesting because like evil is like opposing life but once we rewrite it in our own experience or face our own evil right like the classic look at our judgments before other people. Once we rewrite that, We're back in living. We're living with life rather than opposing it. Guys, I did not expect us to go here. This was way cooler than I thought. Feels right for my session anyways, If this is like. Yeah, How do you guys feel that we went into some deeper evil and God? For me, That's the only place to go. It's the only interesting place. And it feels like we can keep going on and on and on like this hungry discussion for hours. Have you gotten pushback on the god note by using god as you i know you've i can imagine your odd like audience being you come from such like an eastern teaching like that people might be like charles we lost charles or something yeah maybe we got a couple emails nothing like in the course i imagine there's like maybe less people playing it um I did notice like what Darius said, It was like the biggest number of unsubscribes from my email list. When I sent out an email, The God now available, It was like the most unsubscribes I had gotten ever. And there is a part of me that like playfully likes that, Uh, Something like that. But yeah, I felt like a, And still kind of feels like a risk. But not so much explicitly. I think I did a good job of maybe explaining it without over-explaining, At least in the intro session. I explain what it is. It's like it's just I gave myself a rule to not use any quotes or references. And then this is what happened. But I don't really talk about like this is what God means or doesn't mean to me. But maybe people can get a sense of it from the beginning where they're not coming into it with a certain expectation, You know, That would be incorrect. Yeah, Well, I realize we're coming up on an hour. Maybe I could just share. My answer briefly and then see if kind of come to a close for this time. Yeah, I thought about whether or not to like change mine. But I still I feel like I am in a period of continuing to attempt to embody this particular answer. And it is a noun, But I think it's a verby noun. Really, Um, So the answer, What do I do? What do you do? And I've actually had a couple of chances to say this out loud. And, You know, Like it was pick up basketball at the gym. Someone asked me, You know, In small talk scenario, What do you do? And I could easily be pulled to be like therapist. You know, People can speak that language. Teacher i do some teaching Um, I guess it's nothing wrong with going that direction. It just depends on what kind, Maybe what kind of interaction I want to have. But in that situation, I wanted to just have an honest. And so my answer was, I'm an artist. And I can't remember if it went further than that. I think he just sort of accepted it. I'm an artist, And I could go further, But I am an artist. And I think I've shared before. I had an experience. Many years ago at this point where I was just, I was driving in my car and I was listening to The Beethoven. . . Song in particular and it was like feeling quite emotional, Just like in the crescendo of the song. If you ever let yourself just really get into a certain piece of music, It was like really moving. And uh, Just all of a sudden, I felt the welling up of this statement, Like I am an artist. Just like, Yeah, Like that feels true. Given that, Like the limitations of words. It isn't true in a way, But it's like that feels the truest. If I was to say I am anything or do anything like I am an artist. And so I think, But it has been interesting since then. I think I have. Embodied that more and like taken practical steps for that to be more. Externally true like taking art classes and things like that but also just seeing my work increasingly as art like This to me feels like an art form and quote unquote therapy feels like an art form and creating meditation certainly like and increasingly feels more like art. And increasingly, I view that stuff as like albums or single meditations or like single tracks, Singles and albums. And it's like this body of work or a single sort of thing that I want to. Transmit. But that just feels increasingly true and freeing for me because I think, Yeah, It's a noun, But it's like. To me, It means I am discovering who I am through my work. Increasingly and not to find a landing point, But just for the rest of my life to. Be uncovering who I am. Via this particular creation. It's nice to land on a creative project like the course that I just made. And it's like, OK, Now I have this thing and I can. Spend the rest of my time discovering what it wants to be, If I'm willing to be present with it and open with it and vulnerable with it. And then I'll inevitably will learn a little bit more about myself through the creation. Process and just trust that I'll be maybe taken care of financially. If if I keep doing that, I have some belief that if I do that and then that it's not easy to do that, I think it's actually quite difficult to really get yourself to work in that way. But I do have some faith that I will like. The rest of stuff that I might otherwise grab for will take care of itself if I am willing to commit to being an artist in this way. So yeah, It just feels nice to to say, And yeah, Any thoughts about that one? You know I've got questions about this. How long have you wanted to be an artist? Do you remember? Well, I don't think like consciously known it. Until that moment. I think it's always been like an unconscious or implied. You mean the moment on the basketball court? No, The moment where I was driving in the car and like had that internal. So that's probably like seven or eight years ago where that felt like a reality. So you, Okay. But I think that has been present my whole life, Like going back to being a child and like drawing. And I think I moved into sports, Which maybe quieted that. Side of me. Yeah. So it's been a couple of years, Seven, Eight years. And. . . Did something need to happen before you could own that statement? I am an artist. I think a part of me thought that, But I believe already by that point. I can align with the reality that I am an artist. Like if I just feel that that's true internally, Then there actually doesn't need to be any external proof for that. Like I don't. Have to have created a work of art or have anybody say that I've. . . Created art i remember feeling it and there was a part of me that's like no that like that's not true um because you need someone to say that that's true or you need to have like well i made this work of art and that's definitely a work of art Maybe my book, I feel like that was art. Maybe my first thing that I created that really felt like art. So I had already written that at that point. So maybe I did have some like. External proof of it. So like, Yes and no. I'm curious, Darius, Because I know, Charles, Your path has for sure shown the follow the art, The money will come. I'm curious, Darius, Your thoughts on that as being someone who works with artists and also very entrepreneurial on the business end, If you agree with that in a wholehearted way. Cliffhanger. Someone would just. . . Oh, Alright. We're going to be back with Lou in three. Two one I think I got the gist of his question. His question was around like, Oh, He's back. Whoa. Sorry, Guys. We'll figure that out in post. Yeah, If someone would just trust 100% fully or not letting the business part take care of itself. Yeah, From what I've seen. . . The most important thing you could do as an artist. Is to. . . Let go and make space. For creativity, Whatever you want to call it, To flow through you. And. Things that can take up space and become really dense. Our expectations. These expectations of like, I'm going to be a Grammy winner. I'm going to make this much money as an artist. And so it's like it's it's like seeming paradox of like it's good to have goals. But if those goals, Those outcomes are like bricks in your backpack, It makes it really hard for you to walk down your path. And the people I've seen succeed the most are the ones that are following their joy and are just like, I'm having so much fun. This is so much fun because joy is the answer to consistency. And if you can. Solve for consistency, That's more important than solving for talent, Solving for confidence. It's like the ones that could play the game the longest end up getting better and having more talent and more confidence. And so my thing is like, Yeah, Follow joy. Play. As full heartedly as you can. Don't ignore the realities of bills or else that's going to catch up to you. And you're going to like, Perceive this whole experience as a waste or like. . . Dangerous. Um, And situations are different, But the ones that I've seen do the thing not for business first, But like just because they're curious. Seem to end up much further along. Sometimes I see this, Like what you said, Darius, Having that balance and enjoying it, But also thinking about the bills as well. I feel like. . . For me, It's like risk taking that, You know, Maybe I'm not focusing on the bills too much, But this is something I really, Really want to create. I don't care how hard, You know, Will it make money or not. But I just enjoy creating it. Sometimes I would say that doesn't work out, You know, In terms of like monetization. But still it is like something I really admire and something I really like, You know, Even if it didn't work out, Even if people didn't understand it or people didn't resonate with it. But I've realized that. If I think too much about what people are thinking, Is it resonating with people? Is it making money? I start devaluing my own work, Whereas it can be a great piece of work that I've created. People might not resonate with it. It might not make money, But still. So I take it as it is sometimes that am I ready to take a risk right now to create something which people might not like or might not make money. And a lot of times, That risk is very enjoyable because it teaches you a lot of things. And Charles, I see your. . . Although, You know, I feel that this is a great course and it can do like great and it has a great, Great potential to also like resonate with a lot of people. But I feel, I think, Correct me if I'm wrong, That the guard note was something like that for you, Like just creating from not having those expectations. And like in a way that could be viewed as. Sabotage of but I don't think that's accurate, Like kind of throwing out the formula. Because I had a particular formula for the last two courses, Which is like to explore a particular ancient text over a very long period. And I don't want to throw that out. I still would envision using it, But it just felt most. . . I don't know if it's like I like using music as sort of an inspirational. . . Guide uh and like my favorite musicians and i don't know maybe it's like Doesn't work or doesn't connect but for some reason I like following that like model, And then just thinking of my favorite artists. Like if they're moved to do so, They will move away from a. A sound that people are familiar with and really like. And then people are like, Why did they like. This sucks, This direction that they went in. Why didn't they make this album? But it's because they. . . Like wanted there was something that felt more true or real to them and so they pursued that and then you might find like The real fans are like, Oh, Yeah, That's the best album. You know, But you got to really listen to it a few times and then you'll get it that it's the best one. So I don't know. Sometimes I think about that and I think that was present. For me, Because I immediately was about to move into sort of the familiar approach for the next one, Because this is a formula that's working. Just sort of struck me that Let's throw that out for now because I could always come back to it and then move into something that just feels more, I guess, Alive. Right now. I do have a belief though that my own hypothesis that even those ones that aren't quote unquote successful or maybe don't have a financial return, Like. There's still some energetic. . . Investment that's worthwhile there that's happening like my book for example i haven't made you know really any money from that but i do think it was a really important thing for me to unlock other things um that would not have existed if not for putting the energy into that creation and I think that continues to be the case. I feel like even my art stuff, There's no outcome related to that, But I feel like it has. Some sort of good investment. Of energy that extends like to other things in a way that I can't. Necessarily see. But it just feels true to me. If I invest in that energy, It's naturally like has a return, But maybe in a way that I couldn't predict or anticipate. You're nourishing your artist. You're nourishing your creative spirit. You know, You're. Experience, Explore, Express. You need the exploration and experiences to express in a deeper, More meaningful way. My opinion. And I don't feel like it's like. . . When you said like, Uh, Taking a risk. It was interesting. The 20-year-old Darius popped up, And he's like, Yeah, We took so many risks, And he did. But it's like I'm in my 40s, So I'm 43. It's like now I'm. . . Because life's different and more interested in calculated risk. Still risks you know like charles's thing didn't seem like A risk is felt like a calculated risk. You have two. . . You know courses that were crushing and they're continuing to crush, And then you explore it into a different territory. I think sometimes the mistake people make is. . . They put too much risk. And they're like, I'm going to go all in on this thing, Quit my job, Put everything into this thing. And it's like, That's too much pressure for your artist self, Especially if you haven't been like nourishing your artists for a while. And it's like, You're a 40 year old human, But your artist is actually like eight years old and you're like, Pay the mortgage. You have two months to pay the mortgage and you're like, Whoa, That's not an environment for like proper creative development. Well, I feel like it might be a good time to come to a close here. But I don't know, Maybe make a space for a closing withhold or anything. Or any thoughts about what this has been like or anything you'd just like to say? Before we come to an end. There's some, I didn't expect this to be like this at all. And there's something that's coming alive. That's like, It feels like Insight Timer could reject this for several reasons, Potentially, Because it's like, What is this? And there's a part of me like if we straddle that line. The creative strategic risk taker artist self is like that's a fun place to play because we're not doing this to be sensational we're not doing this because it's not true it's actually like real feelings and thoughts and who we are And it's like, Will Insight Timer and their new tool to connect with communities be into it? Maybe not. But I kind of like that edge. And as you said, Darius, We are nourishing our artists right now. And this might not be the thing, What we did today. And this might not even resonate with the audience much. But I think something has shifted in us. And I feel that we're feeling more and more comfortable gradually doing this. And maybe something beautiful will come out. Maybe not now in the future. But I think we are getting on something here. Well said. Yeah, It felt like for nothing else, It allowed for a different. . . Format of like discussion that we might not have otherwise. Had the chance to do sort of like if we were in a room together, Sort of BSing and then get into a topic for a while that we might not have the space for necessarily in our typical group meetings. So that felt. . . Like a nice added element for us specifically, Like just to maybe get to know each other in a slightly different way relative to the other meetings that we have. So I thought that was kind of cool. Thanks for leading, Charles. Yeah, Sounds good. So, Yeah, We'll see if this is on Insight Timer or not or in whatever format it might be. And then if it is, The next time we'll be led by. Someone else here and then our plan is just to keep doing different sessions led by different individuals and then they'll post it on their particular profiles. Yeah, So if you made it here, Thank you for exploring with us. And I hope you can feel some sincerity in not knowing what this was going to be or where we were. Going necessarily and that to me is kind of just the most interesting place. To be. So maybe if you want, We could just take a couple kind of closing deep breaths together. Notice if there's any accumulated tension in the body or anything that might just like to be released or let go of as you move into whatever happens. Like the idea of like metabolizing this energy and then. Releasing what doesn't need to continue, But just channeling what does into. . . The next part of your day. And if you happen to close your eyes, You can just wait until the moment is right for them to reopen. Thank you. And yeah, Thank you. Bye for now. Thank you Charles. Thanks guys. Thank you.

Reviews

I could listen to the 4 of you talk FOREVER! Thank you really, from the bottom of my 💜 for your vulnerability in letting us into your group

Really SO many nuggets, especially love the chat about the ego and God🫶🏻

I also struggle with the word God and prefer to say Goddess or Universe or Spirit only because the word God has been used in SO many bad ways and had many personal experiences with the human version of God… it just still gives me the icks… but definitely not unfollowing anyone for it lol🤣

Love you guys and I really really hope you do this again!!💜💜💜

I absolutely loved this. It felt like a privilege to listen to the way you think and to be part of your discussion. As an artist myself, I particularly loved that part of the discussion. I think it is a “verby noun” too! I hope you do more of these. Thank you for sharing.

wow, loved this.

I really loved being a fly on the wall for your session. Truly thought-provoking and inspiring! I hope you continue to let us join you

The best. Loved this in the moment , exploratory format. So much to think about and explore further. 5 stars is not enough. Can't wait for the next one.