Rumination And Depression

There is a growing understanding in spiritual and psychological circles of a link between rumination and depression. In this conversation we explored the tendencies to rumination and the ways one can interrupt the habit. Through an interactive discussion that took place on February 15, 2026 in Victoria, Australia, we considered the propensities for rumination, especially the "me" story, and the ways to redirect attention.
Participants in this session were informed that we were recording the conversation for use in a podcast shared on multiple platforms.

Transcript

We're storytelling creatures. For much of human history, Let's assume, That was how we learned, Told stories. For a long time there wasn't a written language. Knowledge and information was passed on through stories because it makes things easier to remember. And I think our brains have an inclination to process information best in that way. So it's a tried and true method, Storytelling. In modern times, Who knows how long we would need to go back, But a lot of storytelling has started to revolve around the story of me. The story of me. People are running a story in their heads. I call it like a long-running soap opera, Starring me. And the rest of the universe serves as a supporting character in the story of me. This becomes, Of course, Tedious to the storyteller and to anyone who has to listen to the story of me, Because often they're having to interrupt their own story of me. And one of the things that's very interesting in recent conversations in psychological circles and in spiritual circles is a link between depression and rumination. Rumination, Which is another way of saying the story of me. And often the story of me as subsidiary stories has a list called the problems, My problems. So that gets a lot of attention too in the various stories. It's very interesting to consider that depression, And I think we can all take a quick look at our own experience, That when you're just ruminating about the problem and what's wrong and what happened and what might happen based on what used to happen, It's depressing. So, We in our circles of our age, Of our time, We've been very indoctrinated, Propagandized, I would say, Into thinking we have to unpick all these stories and all these problems and go into the past and dig around in it, Find out some secret code that you missed that's going to make everything okay now. My teacher once, This goes 30 years ago, He talked about the rummaging in the past of your problems. He compared it to rummaging in a garbage pile, In a garbage heap. And you keep picking things out and go, Put that one aside, Get another one. He did this imitation several times over to deliver the point. And it's true, You can just drive yourself crazy and definitely depress yourself with depressing stories, Rumination. So inclining the mind, Inclining the awareness to very simple present, Well, Let's say a simple presence, It serves several fabulous functions. One is it eliminates the rumination. You're off of the rumination, You're getting a break. Also you're feeling your aliveness, You're feeling the beauty of being alive in presence. You have your full ram of attention to meet someone else. You're in presence meeting them, Even if they're not, You're in presence. And that's very attractive to people. That is a great thing for your relationships. Don't we love it when we're with a friend and we sense they're really there, Their attention is not somewhere else? Whether ruminating on their problems or just thinking about somebody else or some other place other than where you are. So the emphasis here in our coming together is to just sit in an immersion, I say it often, Of presence. It's not something you have to train in. You don't need to know anything else, Better not to, In fact, Don't think you have to have any other information because the invitation is to experience something that is your fundamental experience, Is to just drop into what is already the case. You're already here being, These are your precious moments. It doesn't need anything added. And no matter how long you've been practicing the story of me and the rumination, That habit can dissipate surprisingly quickly. That habit can become tedious to you and you'll understand that it is as part of the releasing of it is to see this is not how I want to spend my precious attention while I'm here. Why miss the grand show invested in some nightmare? When you get used to a kind of refreshing taste, Your attention will want to go back there more frequently. And by the way, It doesn't have to ever become constant. You might have times of craziness and times of rumination and times of anger and so on. And okay, That's okay. But just more and more the mind inclines to its home base, To its sanctuary, To its mountain seat of freedom, I like to say. More and more. Sometimes the darkness of mind can be the very thing to remind you to choose freedom. My experience over time has required, Well, A certain amount of ruminating. I would say some of it unavoidable and some of it probably sadly by choice. So where's the balance of positive and otherwise rumination? How would you describe that? Well, Very simply, You can start to direct your own attention. You don't have to be at the effect of a wild galloping horse of conditioning, Right? We all have a lot of conditioning. We come in with a lot of conditioning just as a human creature, Even as a brand new born baby, Right? We have a lot of conditioning already preloaded. And then as you grow, You're in a culture, You're in a type of language. Language conditions how you even think. You're in a peer group. You've got a tremendous conditioning from your parents, But even also from your siblings, If you have siblings. But then at some point, Maybe you're going to school. You've got that conditioning. You've got your culture's conditioning. You've got the time in which you came in. So much conditioning is running. Background programs that are running. Sorry to use computerese, But we all understand it, So might as well. Okay, You've got all this conditioning, But you happen to have a secret power, A superpower actually, And that is you can move your attention. Not every single moment of your life, Sometimes something happens and your attention is grabbed by your reptilian brain or your survival energy or whatever that supplants every other type of attention. But for the most part in everyday life, You can actually move your attention around. Try it out right now, Yeah? You can say, I'll think of an elephant, Right? Think of an elephant. You can move your attention, And that's why I'm making this very, Very simple. Choosing presence, Choosing freedom, Choosing gratitude also works for a kind of dipping into present awareness. Pick something right on hand. Gratitude, Eyesight, Wow, Nice, Great. I wouldn't want to miss that one. But if I had to, Okay, Then I'll be grateful for other things. You can use tricks to get yourself into present awareness and at least get out of ruminating. And then that becomes habitual. How would you define, Well, Ruminating in that context? In this context, It's basically ruminating, I don't know if I'll have the exact perfect definition, But it's kind of like going over and over and over in thought, Thinking over how I'm using it in this context, Is ruminating about the me story. Even when it's not even that something bad has happened, A lot of parts of the me story have to do with the aggrandizement of me. And that's also actually painful if you look closely. Like, I have to get this next thing, Then I'll feel important, I'll feel recognized. I'll have made it. And that carrot sits out in front of you. So that's another type of rumination. Some people are ruminating in desire, In gimme gimme to the world. Some people are ruminating in what went wrong or what might go wrong. There's any number of things that you could ruminate on that are troubling. It's a word that's coming up a lot in conversations, Psychological conversations with regard specifically to depression. Depression and rumination are being linked. Now it's not to say that there's no value in unpacking certain belief systems that are driving you, The undercurrent driving you. And if you can unpack those and see them clearly, And have some agency with alleviating yourself from being the slave to those drives, Then well and good. How would you suggest the ruminator might be able to define where the line is between healthy, Sufficient, Let's say, Ruminating, And otherwise? How would the ruminator come to that? Well, The barometer is suffering. If you're spending your life in rumination, And you're just feeling kind of exhausted by it, Engulfed by life, Especially if you're waiting to get rescued, You're waiting for something else to happen that will brighten it up, And you're ruminating perhaps about how can I make that happen, Then if you start to just pay close attention, You'll see that you're living a half-life. And how long you want to live that is up to you, Because you can move your attention. You know, Another thing that I think is a misconception in spiritual circles, There's way too much talk about happiness and bliss and all that stuff. Peace is good enough, Right? Peacefulness is great, And peacefulness does come with a susceptibility to moments of joy. If you're generally peaceful, You might have many little small moments of joy, But peace is a great enough form of happiness. My Buddhist teachers used to tell us that long ago, Back in the 70s, I would have first heard this, That the Buddha said peace was the highest form of happiness. Now, Hearing that in my 20s, I used to think, Maybe not, Maybe there are others. As you do, And as perhaps it was true at the time, But at this late date, I do agree that peace is the highest form of happiness. It's the most steady, Consistent possibility of a way of life, Of a habituation, Rather than trying to hit the highs, You know. When do you know, From what I can gather, Maybe at some stage it changes from processing something to ruminating on it, And maybe processing is more in the body and ruminating is more in the mind, But where's the line? Like when do you know you step into ruminating? Yeah, Yeah. That's a very interesting distinction, Of course. Sometimes we are having to think over a situation that has to be addressed and requires your list of pros and cons, Let's say, Or implications. That's all fine, But there comes a point with any of those kinds of decisions that the data has been input. In other words, You have looked at them all, You've gone over it multiple times, Perhaps, And then it's time for quiet. It's time then for waiting for the revelation, Like the data has been input, And now you're just waiting for the clarity. That can be an uncomfortable phase, And there'll be a tendency then to ruminate some more. But the problem with that is that the ruminating can go on and on and on and on. And the quiet actually has tremendous information in it, Like when you sit with that amount of data about anything, Whether to change your job or whether to move some other place, Whether to buy a horse, Whatever it is. I don't know why I said the by horse part. Maybe someone in here is thinking about a horse. Okay, There you go. It was you. It's so funny. There comes a point when you have considered it, And now, If you can, Just let it be. Just let it be. Let the answer come to you. Yeah, You get pretty good at waiting for the pull rather than doing the push. And as I said, Sometimes the answer doesn't come on your timeline. It comes on its own timeline. The other part about just being comfortable and being peaceful in your own presence is in a way it doesn't much matter. From that vantage point, It doesn't matter if you get the horse or not. It could be fun, Sure. And whatever else happened in the meantime could have been fun as well. Redirecting your attention to something more pleasant, I think, Can be easier said than done. Certainly for me. The sort of technique or tool that comes to mind is meditation, That sort of helps with that. Are there any others that you've come across, Sort of tools and techniques to help? Well, I alluded to it. Gratitude practice. I don't even call it gratitude practice. I call it just gratitude. But it's a great interrupter of depressing thoughts and of sadness. Just anything at hand. You don't have to be saying, I'm so grateful for the love of my life, And that's a great thing to be grateful for. But I'm saying just here in the now, Like sitting here, You could quickly think of 50 things right now, Isn't it? Yeah. My brother, I often speak about him because he's such a good case in point in terms of, He's living with a terminal illness. But there's no one I ever talk to who's just constantly talking about wonderful things about his life, And it's just this stream of gratitude. He's not even calling it that, Or he's not really practicing gratitude. He's just noticing, In this kind of clarity of mind, How many beautiful things he experiences each day. Has he always been like that, Having known him for a very long time? Yes, I have since he was born. He's always been a happy guy, But he's especially so now. It's more pronounced. Inevitably, I'll ask him it, Because I often talk to him at the end of his day, And I'll ask him how his day is. He always says, Oh, Wonderful, I had a great day. He doesn't try to vary the description. It's just, I had a great day, And I'll say, What did you do, And he'll tell me how much fun this or that was. A lot of the basic things and nothing, You know. He's hilariously funny about a lot of things. He's going blind. He's got to get cataract surgery soon, But he's just finding ways to be pretty upbeat while not being able to see. I mean, He already has this terminal illness. It's been very inspiring, I have to say, And so if he can do it in that condition, Then it is obviously possible to find the brightness in all circumstances. That's not to say we're not allowed to be sad or down a bit at times, Or things get us down, Of course. And losses of loved ones are an ache in the heart. Sometimes I'd say even certain types of aches just remain, But one has to be bigger around the ache. Bigger space happens, And that does happen with heartbreak. One of my friends, Long, Long ago, Great poet, Long dead, He wrote a two-line poem, My heart is broken, Next line, Open. My heart is broken, Open. And that's true. When you let the heart break, You don't resist it. You feel it. You don't have to tell a story about woulda, Coulda, Shoulda. You just feel it. And it's one of the most beautiful things about us. It drives us straight into empathy. You're at one with all of those who have lost, Who have lost our loved ones, Which is the inevitable situation here. So one doesn't shy away from that, And we allow times of suffering, Times of grief. I'm not suggesting that in those times, You've got to go thinking to yourself, I've got to be grateful, I've got to be grateful. I'm just saying as a general everyday life, Just a workaday, Everyday, Regular life, You can have this habit of presence, Of gratitude. It brings with it clear seeing. It brings with it an incredible way of connecting with people you're with. You start to feel, In fact, This beautiful, Like almost a universal sense. When you look into another pair of eyes, You're experiencing beingness together. And it develops a kind of entrainment in the way that you look at people. Because what happens is often they're experiencing this impersonal universality of being. And it's almost like you feel like you're seeing the hurt that they've experienced, The joys, The loves, The story of the life of like here it is again in this form with these eyes. And here are these eyes looking at them and those eyes are looking back. So it's this incredible way of having this moment together. And that actually can become a habit as well. I often experience it weirdly, I'll often experience it if I'm at a restaurant and I look up into the eyes of the waiter or the waitress, I'll have this moment of that and just this affection, This strange affection for this creature who happens to be here in the time that I'm alive, Who I'll maybe or probably never see again. Like that. So I guess my question is like a little bit of the inverse almost of what's been just spoken about. I crave a peaceful life and one where I have consistency and calm, But I'm partially addicted to the peaks and valleys and the chaos. And it's interesting because when I was listening to you talk about how finding these things in the hard times, Like different tools, For me it's like when I'm in heartache or grief, That's when I actually perform best in my life. It's like if I have pressure or I have a need or other people are struggling then I can just find this energy, But I'd love some advice on it. Once I can see there's spaciousness or see there's peace, I tend to be like, Okay, Now I need to look around and see, Does anyone else need me to take on another, Something to fuel someone else's creativity or whatever that looks like, Because I do love those things. I guess I just keep making very crazy plans of, I'm going to do this at this time and this at this time and this at that time, So that I can allocate this three hours for rest, Because if I don't put it in my schedule I just will find something else to create or be a part of. It's just like how do I shift my story that tells me that once there's this space I instantly need to fill it and do the most in order to feel satisfied. I can't speak for you in this rhythm, But I am aware that people have different rhythms, Different life seasons of creativity and rest, And sometimes within the creativity also creativity and rest. So you're in the very highly creative phase and also due to your young age, You've got a lot of energy, Which is normal. One wouldn't want to suppress that in any way and artificially choose too much rest when you've got plenty of energy to be in the creative part. Where it becomes an issue, I suppose, Is only you would know, Is if you're just feeling ragged and a bit strung out and like you're not able to do each thing well, And then that's a sign that more rest is needed just for the balance. I'm good at pushing until, Like last week as an example, We were all working so hard getting everything ready for the workshops and stuff, And so it was all of us collectively pushing, Which I love being a part of a collective driving towards something as well. And then Wednesday night came and I slept for like 11 hours, And then the next night, Same, Like 11, 12 hours because I was just like, Oh my gosh, My body is very tired now. And I know that I can do it like that and I can just push and then recover, But I don't want to let myself get to those exhausted points as often. I struggle to recognise, I guess, The cues in myself even of like, All right, Now I probably should say no to something, Just have a rest day instead of putting in a new herb garden or whatever. Well, There might be subtle signs before there's a collapse. Yeah. And those are the signs to notice and start making adjustments into more ease rather than kind of coming to a full stop. And it's a matter of, Again, Paying attention and knowing the consequences of just slamming it down to the wire. And at times in our lives, That's how it has to be, That's what's on offer. You just know when you've got to take care of yourself for the greater good, For the ongoing next day or whenever you're going to be up and about again. And what you're describing is, I mean, Some people's lives, Due to their circumstances and due to living at a certain level, An economic level, They have to push like that. They have to. And that's always very sad for me to see, Sad for me to see. I used to notice like in India, For instance, Old women with a wrap on their head near a construction site, A wrap on their head and carrying piles of bricks on their head, Walking from one point of the construction site to another, Dumping those bricks off, Going back, And getting another pile of bricks on their head in the hot sun. How long could you or I do that? Not long. Unless we had to to eat, We'd find some way, Or we'd die. I mean, I'm aware of those kinds of situations in life that people don't have all the options we have for resting as needed. But since we do, And another thing that I feel strongly about is, Because of our privilege, It is actually incumbent upon us to get our own selves right, To get clear, To live a righteous, Good life and be awake and be helpful and be kind and meet people in presence, You know, Because of our privilege. Yeah, Definitely. And I think that that's part of why I struggle to slow down in itself as well because in my family, Like me and my brother, We're the first ones to grow up out of poverty. And so sometimes I do put a lot of pressure on myself because I know how privileged I am in comparison to what my family have had and how hard they've worked for me to live the way I do. And I think that's part of why I'm always like, Okay, I need to keep giving and doing because I feel so deeply grateful for the fact that I can do all these things and can live in the way I do. And yeah, I guess it's like part of the responsibility of holding the privileges is maintaining that. So then you can, Yeah. I often say your own well cannot spill over unless it's full. That's when it spills over. When you're rested, When you're clear, When you're juiced up with presence, Then your offerings are very lovely and very, I would say, Efficient. This kind of knowing when to rest, Knowing when to move, When to speak, When not to speak, Right? Your movements, Your decisions are more elegant, Have already in the consideration the greater good. You having the conditioning you have, You already have that. Actually, You don't have to kind of ask yourself that question. You're already embedded with it because of your family history. It's just now a matter of you taking care of yourself as a vehicle for offerings, As a vehicle of creativity so that what you're offering has that fragrance. Like what is it about a shower? It's almost like it's time out of time. It's like the mind has been taken off of its ruminating task and now it's in this water task. You sit down and suddenly there's a big field that opens up of information, Right? So the inclination into more and more using the attention in presence, It's kind of like the shower information field as well, Similar. You're opening up into the whispers of inside and of your own genius.