Talk: No Agenda

An excerpt from Dharma Dialogues with Catherine Ingram, recorded in Los Angeles in 2016.

Transcript

Welcome to In the Deep.

I'm your host,

Catherine Ingram.

The following is excerpted from a session of Dharma Dialogues called No Agenda.

It was recorded in Los Angeles in 2016.

When we're quiet inside,

There's a quality of listening that is very different than when we are noisy inside or when we have any kind of agenda with someone.

So for instance,

When you're in conversation and you have something you want either from the conversation or from the person,

There's a way in which you're always thinking about what you're going to say,

What you're going to get across.

And frankly,

In corporate culture,

That's very much a training,

Right?

Getting your point across,

Getting your talking points out.

You're looking for the opportunity.

It's all based in acquisition of some sort.

But when you're quiet inside and you really don't have an agenda with someone,

Then you can actually hear what they're saying.

Moreover,

You can hear the place they're saying it from.

You can sort of sense the vibe.

Sometimes they're saying something,

But you know that there's another message coming through that they can't say,

Or maybe they don't have words for,

Or they're too shy to say,

Or they're too sad to say.

You can hear it loud and clear.

When you're quiet inside,

You listen in a different way.

You listen to the frequency.

And we all know the difference on both sides,

Don't we?

We know the difference when we're with someone,

And we have the sense that they're just not hearing us,

Because there's such an impulse for them to tell you either about themselves,

Or that maybe you sense they're after something.

They want something from you.

It's not the most relaxed kind of communication.

And often it's not even communication.

The communication isn't even really happening.

Someone I know,

She leads workshops.

It happens in her workshops,

And actually it has happened in my sessions over the many,

Many years.

Someone will raise their hand and say,

Well,

When you said such and such and such,

Right?

When in fact you said no such thing,

Even in the same evening,

Right?

They're quoting you,

Having said something you never said.

Or they're quoting it absolutely incorrectly,

Backward,

Opposite.

Now this person that I know,

What she does in those instances,

Is she makes this very harsh point to the person.

She plays back the tape.

She plays back the thing that they're approximating or not even getting close to.

She plays it back.

I would never do that,

Because it would seem like a kind of shaming thing.

But I do take the point,

And I've had the experience many,

Many times.

So you have to ask yourself,

What is it they're hearing?

Where were they when they were hearing some portion of what you said?

What was going on in this simple way of being,

In this relaxed presence?

The fidelity of what information is coming in,

Whether it's from someone speaking,

Or a dog passing on the street,

Or a feeling on the promenade,

Or anywhere you are,

There's a clear fidelity,

Because your senses are open and clear,

And they're taking in the information accurately.

It's a kind of wakeful intelligence.

It's not based in IQ,

But it's nevertheless a very strong kind of intelligence.

And isn't it wonderful?

It's quite delightful,

Actually.

When you're speaking with someone,

And they really hear you,

And perhaps they even feed back to you,

Perhaps sometimes even verbatim,

Or almost what you just said.

It's very nice to have that.

We human animals are able to speak to each other.

It's a great advantage we have.

In fact,

Some people propose that language was the primordial cause for the rapid evolution of humans.

Why we have become such great toolmakers in all that we do.

Not sure it's going to really work out that well for us,

But nevertheless it certainly worked out for a very long time.

We've had a great agency over our natural world,

And that's because some speculate that not only might you be a good toolmaker,

But you have the ability,

And your friend has the ability,

To compare notes and say,

Well,

Let's try it this way,

Or I'm doing it this way.

Why don't you try it that way?

And so on.

Language is an incredible gift that we happen to have.

But now we're talking about a very nuanced kind of communication with each other.

A communication of the heart,

Whereby you're sitting quite still inside.

It's not that thoughts don't go through,

But that you're really not moving from an agenda with someone.

And that is a great sweetness with anyone you're with.

And sometimes you can feel,

As an agenda arises,

And you can feel the nervousness that comes with it,

And the strain of it.

I would say,

Okay,

That happens to us,

But just notice it,

And don't buy it.

Let it pass through.

You can even say to yourself,

No agenda.

I have had experiences of not having an agenda,

And really listening,

And it's really actually quite nice,

Because often I do have an agenda.

But I'm wondering when I'm hearing something that to me is stressful,

Or this person is telling me something that's going on that possibly is a parenting style or behavior that they're doing that's really a concern to me.

For me to have no agenda,

It kind of rises up in me that I want to say something.

And at the same time,

That person needs to be heard and acknowledged and things like that.

So I'm kind of wondering what to do with that.

To say something,

To not say something,

To just let that be,

To wait for them to ask me.

Well,

I'd say it's sort of case by case,

In that,

Of course,

In communication,

You can be sitting with no real agenda,

And yet in the course of conversations,

Speak your mind or offer advice if you have a sense that that's what they're asking for.

But you can actually be sitting without any particular agenda for things to go a certain way,

Right,

To go your way,

Or that you're trying to get the situation to bend to your will.

So sure,

Of course,

It's always very delicate giving advice if in fact they didn't ask for it.

And so sometimes that does take a certain type of listening.

Sometimes someone is telling you something and you I would say if they're not really asking for your advice,

But that you may sense they're open to hearing it,

Then maybe speak it.

It gets very tricky though if you're offering advice that they really didn't ask for and don't particularly want.

When you were speaking,

You said something about,

You know,

Being quiet and actually listening to what they were saying,

But that there also might be another current of,

Yes.

Of,

You know,

What they're trying to get across.

Yes.

Can you talk a little bit more about that maybe?

Yeah,

You know,

I interviewed a couple of people,

I interviewed Thich Nhat Hanh a few times over the many years and the first time I interviewed him was in,

I think 1982 maybe.

And in that interview,

He said something that I was so struck by.

He said,

He was friends with Martin Luther King Jr.

Did you know that?

They were friends.

And in fact,

Thich Nhat Hanh had been probably the primary person who had made Martin Luther King Jr.

Aware of what was going on in Vietnam.

And it was through his friendship with Thich Nhat Hanh that he began to speak out against the war,

Which was very dangerous for him.

Anyway,

What Thich Nhat Hanh said about his friendship with Martin Luther King was,

He said,

He said,

You could tell him just a few things,

And he understood the things you did not say.

I always loved that.

You could tell him just a few things,

And he understood the things you did not say.

So often there's another level of communication going on.

Whether it's high-level,

You know,

Dharmic kind of communication,

Or it's poetic,

Or it's that of suffering,

You know.

Sometimes you're with someone and you can sense,

Let's say,

An unhappiness,

Right?

Even though they're talking about,

You know,

Not having a sense of happiness,

Even though they're talking about,

You know,

Regular things,

But you can sense,

You know.

So you might tailor your responses to be very,

Very gentle,

Right?

To be very gentle,

To be understanding,

To be compassionate,

Right?

Sometimes you might sense that someone is extremely distracted when you're speaking with them,

That their mind is jumping all over the place.

You can sense an anxiety,

A restlessness,

Right?

Again,

You might,

Because of this sensitivity of your own,

Of quiet of your own,

You might just be a loving presence,

You know,

In that space.

Not with an agenda,

Not trying to fix them,

But simply just to kind of offer a sweet space,

Right?

And if they don't change,

It's okay.

You just hang out,

Right?

So like that,

This kind of listening,

It's a different kind of listening.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah,

It's a listening with the heart.

This has been In the Deep.

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Com.

Till next time.

Reviews

I keep listening to these talks twice; in some cases three times. They are so rich and rewarding and I’m grateful to have stumbled Into them this morning!

I especially appreciated hearing the advice on how to be with another person who you sense is distracted.

Great points as to how to listen to what your sweet heart space desires so then you can connect to another. This is everything I needed, thank you!

Helpful. Thank you!

Fantastic. Thank you very much 🙏🏼 ❤️

Practical commonsense

Very interesting. Have you heard of Hedy & Yumi and their couples workshop on crossing the bridge? It utilizes these principles. It's an excellent tool to really listen to your partner. It's a tool my therapist uses with me & my husband so we can dialogue any subject that may arise. It's artful & powerful, but very hard to do, particularly when it's someone you are intimately involved with; to park yourself and really listen takes skill & effort; but I feel once learned, it's effortless effort. Im hoping to get there. Thank you!

I enjoyed that talk very much. Thank you.

Very nice. Thank you 😊🙏🏽

Appreciated the reminder. I have needed to be conscious of how much of my life I had agendas..... To the extent of overriding others agendas.
In my growing awareness and becoming a more conscious listener I have found greater peace and growing appreciation of all the many expressions of God. It becomes clear if to say anything.
Thank you for this🙏

Wonderful talk. Many great points. Will come back to this again. Thank you.

Hi Catherine! Thank you

Thank you, it's an inspiring interview.

Thank you. I need to do more of this amid the hustle and bustle.

To hear while you listen is a wonderful gift to bring to the conversation .

Listening with the heart, Thankyou 🙏

Lovely, intelligent, grounded. Catherine is one of my favorite dharma teachers.