A Koan At The End Of Days

Excerpted from Dharma Dialogues with Catherine Ingram. Recorded in Lennox Head, Australia in May 2018. From the opening talk: “It’s becoming increasingly obvious to me why many great teachers, such as Ramana Maharshi or Meher Baba, just became silent, or never even spoke much in the first place."

Transcript

Welcome to In the Deep.

I'm your host,

Katherine Ingram.

The following is excerpted from a session of Dharma Dialogues held in Lenox Head,

Australia in May of 2018.

It's called,

A Koan at the End of Days.

It's becoming increasingly obvious to me why many great teachers just became silent,

Or even never spoke much in the first place,

Such as Ramana Maharshi or Mayor Baba or any number of people,

Why Poonjaji,

My own teacher,

Spoke sometimes about how frustrated he sometimes felt that he himself could not express what he meant,

And how he'd been waiting his whole life to hear the words,

To describe this ineffable thing of the simplicity of being.

And I notice how easy it is for us to latch onto concepts,

And how the concepts then become these veils that obscure the actual experience.

And I see how hard everybody's trying in the world,

You know,

With just,

You know,

Massive amounts of programs and books and trainings and philosophies and discussions into the night.

And believe me,

I participated in all of that back in the day.

And how simple it turns out to be,

And how Poonjaji used to always say,

When you really see that,

You'll laugh.

You'll laugh at the absurdity of all that you were attempting to do or attain or figure out,

Or tilting at windmills forever with regard to trying to so-called be awake or be enlightened or be better or be improved,

When there was really nothing ever to do.

Right?

There was never any effort required.

But it seems hard to believe,

And that's why when you do finally see it,

You laugh.

You laugh at how just poignant the whole production was.

How many hours you might have spent,

How many hours I spent,

How many years I spent,

How many miles I traveled,

How many plans I made to have the right experience.

So sometimes I find myself just at a loss for words.

So suspicious am I about putting more words into the atmosphere,

More concepts,

Even really simple ones like just be.

People will make a project of it.

Even saying just be is inaccurate.

You're already being.

So then what is left with,

You know,

It's like in Zen sessions,

There's no teaching.

You go into the Zen master once a day or maybe once every other day possibly.

He says a koan,

A kind of riddle that makes no real sense.

And then next time you see him,

You answer something that's equally nonsensical.

And he either asks you the same koan before,

Which means you didn't pass,

Or you get a new koan.

And it's this little dance.

But meanwhile,

You're sitting in session and you're just being.

And it's only in the moments with the Zen master that you're required to somehow express something of being.

And in that moment,

You might have been actually quite awake during the time of the sitting part.

You might have been very relaxed and clear.

But if in the presence of the Zen master,

You suddenly go back into sort of conceptual structure and answer from that,

He's going to know.

So you're constantly tested in your surrender of beingness because when you give your answer,

It's either going to be coming from that or it's not.

It's an interesting little strategy they have.

But then everything comes down to,

Like they've all said,

We're just here hearing the birds,

Hearing my voice,

Breathing,

Seeing,

Smelling,

Sensing.

It just comes down to that.

Now,

Because we're such thinking creatures,

We think that the action is happening in the realm of thought or mind.

We think that it's about the mind activity that gives us this sense of being.

But what if that just simply is not true?

Mind activity goes on because of being a human being.

But a lot of other aliveness is happening that we sometimes overlook or make less important.

What if that's the real main meal of this life?

Just hearing the birds or smelling something or looking at the green.

What if there's no such thing as enlightenment?

There's no steady state you're going to come to.

There's no big bang of dissolution of all your problems or identifications.

But instead it's just this simple flow of attention in being.

That's it.

And because this is so subtle,

I can really see how some people just choose not to speak about it.

When you talk about the Zen master testing the student in that moment,

It feels like in my life,

If I'm just sitting or there's certain conditions where it's much easier to just melt into the sound of the wind.

But life,

Like the couple of last weeks,

Has been super busy and there's been lots of activity and lots of mind action.

And it's like,

Even as I speak this now,

It happens automatically.

There's like this thing that goes into my mind and it's almost like this stress response.

Almost like that melted feeling becomes tighter or something contracts.

And so when that's my daily life is,

You know,

Got to be here by this time and the next thing and the next thing.

It's like my attention,

It overpowers the subtlety.

Yes.

Yes.

And it perpetuates this kind of adrenal forward motion energy thing that then seems for me to perpetuate these other strategies and coping things that I do,

Which furthers it along.

Yeah.

And makes noise.

And so then it's like,

I find it really hard to wind down again or,

You know,

To quieten even.

It's like it gains its own momentum.

Yeah,

It does.

Yeah.

And so the only way I've found when I'm at that place of intensity is to like find something of equal intensity,

Say like going for a run,

Where then all I can do is focus on my breathing because.

.

.

I think a lot of people use movement for that purpose.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm just wondering,

Yeah,

I don't know if there's a question there,

But if you can speak to that kind of experience,

Especially when,

You know,

I can't necessarily avoid all the activity at the moment.

Right.

Yeah.

I have to be engaged.

Yes.

You're in a phase of life in which there's just a lot of busyness because you're a mom and you have a lot to do and a lot to handle and a lot of balls in the air.

So there's going to be a natural,

You know,

Forward momentum of mind activity.

And as you point out,

Once that's sort of triggered and there's a sort of constant swirl,

It is hard for it to reverse itself into just complete calm.

But of course,

I always say be gentle with yourself.

Take whatever time you can and quiet.

Go for a run if that's how it is.

You know,

Just to kind of give the mind a little break.

Time off,

Right,

Because of course,

Then it interrupts that pattern.

It interrupts that feedback loop.

And not to have an expectation of something that you imagine that should be really different.

Right.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Yeah,

Because there's like been this period of time where I've had a lot of spaciousness relatively.

And so,

Yeah,

There is this kind of reference point back to that and what that felt like to not have this,

You know,

All these tightness sensations and kind of,

Yeah.

Yeah,

Well,

The tightness sensations might be able to be released somehow even in the busy life.

That would be recommended if possible,

If there's some way that that can be adjusted.

But what I'm pointing to is that right now you're in a busy phase of life and that's just the what so.

So you can have this kind of presence.

See,

Again,

The frustration with using any kind of concepts is that people hear these words just being,

Just,

You know,

Presence and so on.

And they imagine,

You know,

This sort of peaceful calm,

Like,

You know,

Just gazing at the ocean.

Now,

Some people have the great luxury of life to have that be how they're spending their days a lot.

And in other circumstances that are similar.

But when you're in a kind of life or a phase of life that's just very busy inherently because you have responsibilities,

Then it's also possible to just be very simple and present in that and not have the expectation that it has to be this,

You know,

This deep,

Quiet,

Calm externally.

And then you just,

You know,

There are times when we're just busy and there can just be a kind of flow in it.

You just,

The attention is just flowing.

It's not sticking anywhere.

It's flowing on to the next,

On to the next,

On to the next.

Yeah,

Because I feel like I do this.

One of the things that happens to me is this just on time thing where I'll be,

It's like I almost create it for myself that I'm running late somewhere.

So I get the adrenaline kick to rush to actually get to be where I would do what I need to do to get out the door to.

And so it's like,

Yeah,

I imagine if I just could just flow through things without the resistance,

Then there wouldn't be that stop start point,

Like the craving for the nothing.

So I put off the doing until I,

You know.

Yeah,

Exactly.

Right.

Yeah.

You can be having more of the nothing as you're going along,

You know,

Even though you're busy.

Yeah.

And haven't we all known that?

I mean,

It's what people talk about when they say they're in flow.

Like in sports games,

You often hear about that flow concept whereby,

You know,

They're busy.

I mean,

They're running up and down basketball carts,

You know,

They're doing.

But sometimes they talk about how they weren't really doing it.

They were in flow.

And it was like the whole team was somehow in this,

You know,

Interesting synchronicity.

And haven't we all had times like that where you had a really busy day,

But somehow it all just kind of flowed along?

Well,

In this way of being,

That happens a lot more in life.

Not every minute,

You know,

You don't have to have it be every minute,

But it just happens a lot more in life.

You know,

It's just somehow you.

Even with,

Yes,

I'm realizing I have this belief that it can happen even with a schedule.

Yes,

Very much so.

Like with the timeframe.

Absolutely.

Yes,

Surely.

Even with a very busy schedule,

You know.

But then if possible,

It's nice to put in some rest time because we are each creatures of a certain amount of energy per day.

And then we have to shut the system down.

Right?

It has to go to sleep.

The system goes to sleep.

And if it doesn't get to do that,

It starts going haywire.

Doesn't take much even for it to start going haywire.

Doesn't take much missing of sleep,

Missing of rest.

So every single day there's just a portion of energy available.

The idea of infinite energy is a fantasy.

So we honor that.

Right?

And you do your very,

Very best to accommodate the need for rest,

Whether it's just at night sleeping or if there's little minutes through the day that you can plug in.

Just some,

You know,

One of my own little mini tricks is in the midst of busyness.

I might just have a moment of like,

You know,

I put in this phrase the well of nothingness.

I might just visit the well of nothingness.

Just like just go down to the bottom of my being for even a few seconds or a couple of minutes or just stop,

Literally stop and just look out,

Out the window.

And into just just there-ness.

And it's almost like this little refreshing hit of just being.

So my recommendation would be to just plug a few of those in.

Surely you have a little bit of time for those,

You know.

And then you're just back whatever it is you're doing.

You're cooking,

You're talking to the kids,

You're driving,

You go this or that place,

You're figuring things out,

You're writing down notes.

You know,

It can be,

You know,

A river of attention.

Not to torment yourself with some idea of a state that is better than the one you're experiencing.

We imagine all kinds of things about what states people are in and what their internal experience must be and,

You know,

We can't know.

We just imagine.

I was just reflecting that I think part of the frustration of a so-called spiritual search is this imagining of some other state of being that you're going to get to.

And it's only when you realize that this experience,

This taste of what you're experiencing is perfectly fine and this is it.

Right?

Then it really gives value and honors the life you're in.

You know,

You're not fighting in any way the hand you're dealt by fate,

By existence,

Whatever.

Took me a long time to learn that.

But what if I don't like it?

Like what if I don't like the tightness in my chest?

My point is the tightness in your chest might be connected to the story that you should be living some other kind of life,

This situation should be different.

I'm not doing it right or all of those things.

That's the extraneous part that I'm saying is the actual frustration.

That would produce the tightness in the chest.

If the understanding was this is my beautiful life,

This is how it is.

This is my.

.

.

Yes,

Somehow I have these kids that I seem to be taking care of.

This is my existence.

And this is my precious taste of this existence.

This is my precious taste of what it feels like to be alive.

Which,

By the way,

Has got no guarantees of longevity.

If there's that surrender to the moment,

To the suchness of this,

Then quite likely the tightness would disappear.

There would be an expansion,

There would be a feeling of openness,

There would be a feeling of gratitude.

It moves into gratitude a lot in that recognition.

So I say this from experience.

For so long I was living almost like a half-life waiting for my other real life to start,

Once things got better in my being.

And I was trying all these ways,

Kind of in a confusion really,

Of trying to do something with my mind to make this switch occur into this new realization of my more exalted self.

And it was a fool's errand that went on a long,

Long time.

And it was not until there was this recognition that,

Oh my God,

I don't have to do anything about my mind.

I don't have to change it one iota.

And I don't have to listen to it all the time either.

And I can just simply be as I am and was,

Warts and all,

You could say,

However it is.

Then that's when everything got better.

I mean,

Everything I had wanted in some other imagination of what my life would or should be was suddenly found in just this full acceptance.

You know,

In just this saying yes to dignifying the life that I was in and realizing how lucky.

I spoke about this in Melbourne recently.

The odds of you being here are phenomenally,

Staggeringly low.

But here you are.

But when you think about what had to happen for you to be sitting here through time,

Right?

Not just human,

Not just your human ancestors,

Right?

Every one of those human ancestors had to win the lottery of life over and over again.

All of those generations,

Nothing,

You know,

Any one little thread that changed.

One little accident.

One little baby dying.

Any of it all along the way,

Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of years of evolution.

All those different births,

Deaths,

Birth,

Deaths,

All of that procreation down the line,

Down the line.

It's not just your parents.

It goes so far back.

So for you to actually be sitting here is like this crazy,

Bizarre,

You know,

One-off of existence.

And then on top of that,

Add on to that,

That you were born in a time and in a place of incredible privilege.

You know,

We don't fight for food every day.

Most of us certainly don't have to do that in our lucky cultures.

And we have so much abundance and roots over our heads and freedom to move about.

And then we kind of torment ourselves with a bunch of,

You know,

If onlys.

When we've already won,

You know,

The lottery a million times over through all those other generations that had to thread this needle and survive.

And we forget all of that.

We never even think about it,

Mostly,

You know.

And yet when you're actually just confronted with just the privilege of being and let yourself have that,

These kinds of insights kind of flow in.

You know,

You look around and see,

Wow,

This existence and how precious and how fleeting and how,

You know.

And all the love that we each experience.

Here for a short time.

So then it comes down to these ideas of like some other life that would be better,

That you'd be experiencing becomes really an extraneous impulse.

And the one that you're in,

You go,

Wow.

You know,

Wow,

This is amazing.

OK,

So this is just kind of referencing where you've been speaking.

And I guess it's,

I don't want it to be totally conceptual,

But I'm still curious with how,

You know,

That is saying all of that.

And yet there's still this for your search,

You saw Poonjaji and that kind of took your path a particular way.

And so this thing of not searching and being with,

You know,

Like my mind kind of just goes to this small place of you just live,

People just live and they die and live and they die.

And yet here we are.

And there's something about the intention of a search or something that then takes you into dropping into not searching.

I don't know what it is.

So I guess it's just,

I don't know if I'm kind of pointing to it clearly,

But that's what I'd love to hear explored.

Well,

I love to think of these gatherings as a place where we're given permission to really just be and to not make effort.

Right.

That's my intention of having these kinds of sessions and it's the only,

When I do go somewhere to have an experience,

That would be the only reason to be doing that.

Like,

I don't have any interest in conceptual teachings.

No,

I guess what I'm,

I don't know exactly how to explain what I'm trying to say.

It's hard to find where it is.

Well,

Let me have a go at a possibility because one of my girlfriends said to me the other day how she felt so much regret that she hadn't met Pooonjaji.

And she said,

You know,

You and Gangaji and all these people got something when you went that you just got it.

You just got something.

And I said to her,

But we've all been saying what he said all this time.

And she loves that message and she actually does understand it.

But she had the idea that she needed to be in that room in order for her to give herself full permission,

Which just isn't the case.

You know,

Her readiness was long ago activated,

Long ago,

And it has radically changed her life.

She doesn't do any searching anymore either.

And I said,

What is it you think you missed?

So it's that,

It's an understanding that,

You know,

Obviously it's extraordinarily powerful when you're with someone who is so cooked in it and exudes incredible confidence so that you're just,

There's no doubt when you're in the presence of someone like that.

And it's very powerful.

But once you've had the glimmer of this,

As Nisargadatta said,

It's like a spark in a shipload of cotton.

It just is just burning along.

You don't have to worry about it.

It's on its way.

And then you make your own experiments with it,

You know.

But for myself,

Like,

I love all circumstances that just let me sit in this,

Whether it's in a room like this where we're specifically having conversation,

As fumbling as it may be,

But that's our intention.

We come together really just to have permission to just hang out in the deepest waters.

But I'm also happy if that takes place in a musical context or yesterday walking on the beach or,

You know,

Just simply listening to the,

I mean,

Anything,

Anything at all that is giving me permission to soak like that.

So it doesn't have to be in some kind of box of spirituality.

I think that's what I was,

I guess the image that comes to mind is,

I mean,

Sorry,

I hope this isn't offensive to anyone,

But for me,

It's like this Bogan family at the beach relaxing on holiday.

And they're just hanging out.

Yeah.

And what's wrong?

I mean,

Here's the thing.

There's not a lot of difference.

There's not.

Now,

We don't know what's going on in their minds.

We don't know if what's going on in their minds is crazy or that they're yelling at the kids or whatever.

But if it's just that they're quietly hanging out and being,

That's it.

It's not,

You see,

This is the whole thing.

And that's why I'm saying that the spiritual concepts and the goal oriented and the kind of stink of purity,

As they say in Zen,

You know,

All of that is not the point,

You know,

And not clear in my opinion.

That's why all the great teachers keep talking about how ordinary it is to understand this.

You land up in a lot of ordinariness,

Surprisingly.

Yeah.

So this is what I'm kind of,

It's kind of,

There's something for me,

There's some paradox in this idea of,

It's almost like if we never search,

If there was no impulse or no conditioning about having to find some spirituality.

I don't know.

Would we be there?

I don't know.

Well,

Let's look at it from this point of view.

The search is usually instigated due to some kind of suffering or discomfort,

Not every,

Not always,

But often it is.

So one goes on the search,

It's like the Zen,

You know,

The ox herding pictures I have in that front room.

Right.

You go on the search and you have all these adventures on the search and you kind of land back up more or less where you started,

But you have now gone on the search and you have seen a lot and you have metabolized a lot of letting go that has gone on along the way on the search.

So there is a great power in that kind of knowing.

Not entirely necessary to have gone on the search,

To have that kind of knowing.

And don't we all know people who never did any kind of spiritual thing and wouldn't really be able to have these kind of conversations in any kind of conceptual way,

But nevertheless you have a sense that they are just sort of hanging out being and they're pretty sweet.

Right.

Pretty good.

Pretty radiant.

And I know quite a few of those,

Not only that,

But I've had so many people walk into these kinds of rooms over the many years,

Who really had no background.

They hadn't gone through any big training.

And who,

You know,

It was like water into water hearing these words.

There was no resistance,

They just understood it.

Right.

So then when you come to a situation like this,

You're just here to enjoy.

You're not here to get anything or improve anything or attain some goal or have some big conceptual program you can now talk about.

All of those things fall away.

Although saying that,

I notice in myself when I speak with you,

Or even when I do the sit at the start,

That there is,

And maybe it's my patterning with my adrenaline,

But that there is a different feeling.

I'm not just sitting,

There's a different engagement somehow that's going on in myself.

And so I do notice that there's.

.

.

A heightened experience.

A heightened experience,

Yeah.

And that is the function of this kind of gathering.

It's a soaking or a heightening or how we're going to steeping.

And that serves the function of intensifying the habit.

So that you get a reference point for how that feels,

How easily you came to it.

You just somehow it was in the atmosphere.

Such that it becomes more your normal return spot when you're out and about in the day.

And even when you're very,

Very busy,

You find yourself again easily kind of coming to that more heightened awareness or heightened or easy simplicity.

However,

One wants to.

.

.

Of course,

The words are not going to be accurate.

But that is why we have.

.

.

And why these kinds of gatherings,

I'm told,

Satsang gatherings,

Have been going on for 5,

000 years.

Amazing.

5,

000 years.

I think for me there's up to heightened stillness.

And also alongside that,

There's a trying.

I still have a trying addiction thing where I kind of feel that I'm trying to step into it more or drop into it more or milk it in some way.

So I can really see that I still haven't dropped the search yet completely.

So I think I'm just speaking that out to share as well.

And that's very common,

Of course.

And no matter how many times somebody might say you don't have to try,

You don't have to make any effort,

If that little program is going to kick up,

It'll come up.

And what I can only tell you is that at some point and why you might laugh is that at some point it might just drop away.

Yeah.

In the meantime,

I'm working on including,

Just including it.

Yeah,

Exactly.

It's just a little program that kicks up now and again.

Yes,

I know.

Thank you.

I've said many times,

And it was very lucky to meet Poonjaji in this regard,

That since meeting him,

I have not ever had another moment of seeking.

It just hasn't arisen.

And what I mean by that,

Of course,

Is that I just have never had any more spiritual ambition whatsoever.

Like,

I just don't care how I am.

The only time I ever do anything with my attention that is a little intervention at all is if it's suffering.

And then I do a little quick look at what's the story,

What's the fixation,

Right?

And if there's some way to kind of reframe it or to move the attention,

I do that.

Or sometimes it's sort of stuck on its loop and I don't have any tools to get it off of there and I just wait it out.

But I don't really care that it's happening.

See,

That's the bit that sounds miraculous to me.

Does it?

A little bit.

I do have tasters where I don't care.

And the rest of the time I'm stuck in my story about the,

Like,

I care,

I so deeply care.

And it's very kind of touching how people want to be good,

They want to be better.

They don't want to have these awful thoughts or this or that,

You know,

And it's very touching.

But it's also very relieving when you're let off the hook with all of that and you don't care anymore how it is.

And then there's this freedom about it.

Like,

You just,

You know,

You just relax about how you are and who you are.

And don't we sense when we're with someone who's kind of authentically themselves and not trying to be anything else.

You know,

It's very relaxing.

I think I've usually got three themes that come through.

This is one of the themes that seems to consistently be here.

Because I feel like I more and more relax,

Essentially,

You know,

Which is lovely.

And in,

Like,

It's not interrupting.

It's like,

If I wanted to describe it in an analogy,

I feel like an ant on a piece of wood floating up to Niagara Falls.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And this whole thing about the environmental destruction.

Yes.

Yeah.

So like this,

There's part of me,

It's like,

I know I can't do anything about that anyway.

Right.

You know,

That wheel that's turning is so much bigger than me.

Yes.

Do you know what I mean?

And I can recycle my things and I can turn my light off and do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

I can do that.

I can not waste water.

I can do those little things and not,

Nothing is going to change.

That's right.

So it's like it tinges my relaxation.

Yeah.

Because I feel this coming catastrophe.

Yes.

That's unstoppable.

Yes.

And it's hard to just go,

Oh,

Well,

I'll just hang out and enjoy this day.

Because how many days do we have left?

That could be the reason why you enjoy this day.

Right.

I mean,

You've worked some with people who are approaching death.

Yes.

And so it's like being in hospice,

But still having a healthy body.

So,

Yes,

There is that possibility of recognition.

I saw on Bill Maher last night.

Bill Maher is a comedic social commentator in the US,

One of the absolute smartest guys,

I think,

In the US,

In terms of on the public platform.

And he had Ethan Hawke on as one of his guests.

And Ethan Hawke was talking about a movie that's just coming out.

I think it's called First Reformers,

I believe.

And apparently it's about a preacher who becomes an eco warrior.

And Ethan Hawke didn't speak long about the movie,

But I definitely want to see it,

Because one of the things he addresses is the depression that comes with the recognition of what's going on.

And the intensity of the passion that might arise in the face of it.

So,

Yeah,

We're living in a really crazy time.

It's really unlike any other of the bad times.

There was never a previous bad time of human history where extinction was on the table.

There were bad times and there were plagues and there were all kinds of things that would have been miserable to be in.

But in terms of full extinction in human history,

That hasn't been on the table.

And we're all plugged up with each other.

We're all plugged into the information so we can be keeping track of it.

And we kind of can't help but be keeping track of it.

So there's a natural in the face of seeing a lot of what is happening.

There's a natural sadness that anyone would experience.

At the same time,

For me what it has done in these years of studying climate chaos is it has made me feel so tender for life and for love and for gratitude for another day of relative calm and safety and beauty.

And I know that there's also a process of letting go that's going on in my being that has really been for years now underway.

But it is not without its moments of exactly what you're describing.

I'm less in those now.

I was in the first few years,

I had a lot of very big emotions that were rolling.

And I think I've told you,

And maybe some of you in the room before,

There was one phase where the sorrow of it all and the heaviness of it,

And the thoughts about all the people I love and especially the little people in my family,

That the stress of that actually caused me to get shingles.

And that was a real wake up,

You know,

Because that's like being burned from the inside.

And that was really an interesting,

Very,

Very quickening of my sort of a blaze of insight that had to occur as though one was facing real death imminently.

And since that point,

You know,

It's been this mostly just this intensification of gratitude for what is still here and what joys and what beauty and how one can be helpful in little ways,

Not necessarily trying to save the planet,

But just in being helpful in just the simplest of ways for people.

And there's a lot of freedom I've been experiencing through this that is basically saying,

OK,

However this plays out is playing out.

Right.

And what to do?

I mean,

Shake your fist at the sky.

What are you going to do?

It's like the moments when I'm in,

When I touch peacefulness,

It's like there's peacefulness and sadness and gratitude.

It's sort of like it's not the definition of peacefulness by any means.

Right.

Good.

Yes.

Same for me.

Yes.

Yes,

Yes,

Yes.

Yeah,

It's like I have moments when I think I could start crying and never stop,

Like with what I'm seeing,

You know,

And other moments when I just think I am fully surrendered to what is and to this situation that we are in.

Whereby we may be witnessing the last of this whole show.

Right.

It's possible.

And so,

You know,

And the profound surrender in that,

You know,

And having to let that one in is it just drives you into a kind of bigger sense of freedom where you have to say yes to it.

Not because you want it to be,

But because it is what is happening.

And that's the distinction that becomes the point of freedom where you basically have to say,

OK,

Yes,

This is happening.

You don't condone it.

You don't.

You never wished it,

But here it is.

Look,

And also for me,

Too,

Easy to get caught in an outrage,

You know,

Political outrage.

But the thing is,

Michael,

How far back does it go?

When did it start?

Yeah.

Some people say it started when the first person picked up a rock and threw it at some kind of food.

Right.

It's been a long time coming in this direction.

It's not just this current crop of madness.

It's something in the human species has done this.

And it was not just one.

It wasn't a billion.

It was more.

It was pretty much everybody through history.

It just kept rolling on.

And all of the so-called technological advances that went along the way at the time,

They seemed like a good idea.

At the time,

It was to try to make things better.

At the time,

It was trying to get us from one point to another.

At the time,

It was trying to move food around and have more of it to store and on and on and on.

And it has gone exponential.

You know,

As things can tend to do,

It's gone exponential.

And the destruction of the resources has gone exponential.

And now we're exponentially putting far more carbon into the atmosphere than the atmosphere can clean up.

And that isn't going to stop.

It's getting worse.

Plus the methane is being released,

Which is far worse.

So there's no happy spin on where that leads.

And we just have our days and drink our coffee and go for our walk on the beach.

And,

You know.

We're still living in this incredible privilege.

And it's very,

Very,

Very touching to see how.

.

.

I mean,

We've all probably taken it for granted most of our lives,

You know.

It's nice to just bring that into satsang.

It's nice to kind of feel it there somehow.

Because I think if it doesn't come in,

I separate away.

I'm with you.

I always want to out the truth of things.

No matter what the cost of seeing it,

I'd rather deal with it in the truth of it.

And let the awareness metabolize it.

And that's what's happened for me in this process.

Not an easy one.

And I don't typically bring it up because I don't sense that everyone is ready for it.

Most people just aren't.

But it's starting,

I'm noticing,

To be out in the world a lot more,

You know.

I'm starting to see that this conversation is ebbing out into mainstream a lot more.

And.

.

.

Yeah.

There'll be much more on this,

Do you know what I mean?

I think I'll come back on this and come back on this and come back on this.

I feel like it's a work in progress.

I'm a girl.

Because I too feel a catharsis when I feel that it's being met,

You know.

And I do feel.

.

.

Yeah,

There's no bigger news story on earth and yet it doesn't get the kind of attention that it really should.

But there is no other story that trumps it,

You know.

It's the elephant in every room.

I always say it's the elephant on fire in every room.

You know,

It's the elephant in every room.

And it's the background in awareness for a lot of people now.

And a lot of people are already experiencing the desperation of it.

That's why we have more refugees on the move than ever before.

And why,

You know,

Places like people in Cape Town are spending their days trying to figure out just how to get water.

You know,

And that's the beginning.

You know,

It's all of this,

It's like sitting in satsang,

Truth community.

It would be a similar feeling if we were all in hospice together,

Right?

We would talk about similar things.

About life,

About love,

About joy,

About gratitude,

About appreciation.

You know.

And how to use our attention.

So for myself,

Over this little journey of diving into the climate science,

I really,

A number of years ago,

I mean,

I always sensed that we were headed toward more and more trouble on Earth.

I think I have sensed that since I was a child.

Yeah.

I had a conversation with Katie Byron a few years ago.

I was having lunch with her at her house.

And I was telling her about this study of mine,

Climate science.

It was about four or five years ago.

And she lit up,

Like she was excited.

And she said,

You know,

I've always felt this.

I said,

Yeah,

I know I have to.

But I really dove into the actual science and I continue to.

And anyway,

The process for me has been the stages of grief,

Really,

You know.

A lot of bargaining and what if and anger,

As you say.

And I feel like I'm mostly in acceptance at this point.

But I bounce around on some of the other points now and again.

But mostly I'm in acceptance.

So it's possible to come to that.

I think I'm somewhere between denial and anger.

I think I've got,

You know.

Bargaining,

Depression still to go.

Right.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you for talking about that.

The way you put that,

Catherine,

Of how did you say it,

That we're witnessing,

Like with all the information available,

We're witnessing the oncoming extinction.

Yeah.

Tenderness seems to be the only sane response.

Yes.

Yes,

David.

You know,

Which to me feels like an embracing of sadness at the same time.

Yeah.

And I've been feeling connection to what everyone has shared in my own way and realising that,

You know,

The striving to want to,

Just the striving for whatever purpose,

You know.

I feel like even though I'm actively creating and I spoke here last week about how that's such a surrendered experience for me and how I'm learning to be a vessel and how joyful it is for me to create and how much I love it.

So it doesn't feel like I'm striving.

Right.

Something happened a few years ago.

I had a near-death experience.

And in that other realm,

I was able to see and it shocked me a lot because I had put everything,

All my time and energy into trying to contribute certain things,

You know,

Like maybe in a response to the environmental crisis because it's disconnect that creates this.

Right.

And what I have been doing is all about,

You know,

Emotional intelligence at the end of the day.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But in these other realms,

In the energetic realm,

I saw how all of that was quite inconsequential because,

Yeah,

I feel like I contacted a realm where,

You know,

When we're just souls and how it's like somehow through that I got released from the striving inside of what I'm doing,

Even though I'm still doing it,

But it's coming from another place.

Right.

Because there's an acceptance that,

Yeah,

I don't know how this is all going to go here.

And.

Yeah,

No,

I.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Totally hear you.

There's a freedom in this recognition.

Yeah.

A lot of the big productions of somebody and legacy and all of that is just gone.

There's no point.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That all of that and also the attempt to make a difference to people's lives so they make different decisions and support more connectivity and reverence for the planet and all of this.

You know,

That's been a massive driving force behind what I do.

But the striving to try and make that happen also fell away,

Even though that can still happen.

Yes.

Right.

Yes.

But having to be the one in charge of it is you don't have to do that part.

Yeah.

And then it comes down to,

You know,

In this simplicity again,

I know I said it a little while ago,

But just.

Just the sharing of love and being a bit helpful where you can is all that you really bother with.

Yes.

Yeah,

That's it.

And,

You know,

Because just like you and I the other night at that event,

We stayed after and helped her take everything down.

And,

You know,

Pack it all up.

Imagine if she was there alone doing that,

You know,

You know,

Just those simple acts of kindness anywhere we can.

You know,

That's enough.

Yes.

And just the being with and and how that impacts us at a deep level.

And when that focus shifted for me of,

You know,

What I could do in the world,

It was more.

Well,

How how can that touch people on a deep level so that not dismissing the importance of this beautiful planet,

You know,

But regardless of what happens,

Yes,

That it's like the accumulated soul memory that we all have and come from like.

I just sort of had this discovery that that's the only thing that actually has weight.

Yeah,

I mean,

I,

I have a similar concept or feeling that I would like my life to be kind of on the side of the good,

Even if this whole thing goes away.

Right.

And and there's someone I quote,

He's an old friend,

W.

S.

Merwin,

An American poet,

And he says,

On the last day of the world,

I would want to plant a tree.

And so it's it's kind of that,

You know,

Because the last day of the world,

You know,

It's what we see and experience here isn't all that there is.

You know,

I had an experience of seeing how it all keeps going.

And so how we can be with each other and have an impact on each other on that level kind of holds everything together.

You know,

Yeah.

Beautiful.

You know,

And I've I've lived on the earth without years ago,

Without a house,

Like really simply under a tree,

You know.

Like I deeply love the earth and this planet.

And at the same time,

It's like so vulnerable.

You don't know what's going to happen.

And I wanted to share as well that before you started sharing today and I was sitting here and just been feeling like I'm really enjoying all the things that are going on in my world.

But I come here and I have this beautiful reminder and,

You know,

Like it was shared about how miraculous it is that we're all here and being reminded of these things.

And,

You know,

Even though I like what's going on,

I sit here and just feel my breath in my body.

Like this is everything.

Oh good,

Oh good.

There you've said the words I was trying to say.

It's just nice to have it not be this tense contrast,

You know,

Because it's like,

Yes,

These things can go on and this is beautifully profound and simple.

Ever the more so,

Right?

As the awareness takes in what the context that we're actually in,

Ever the more so.

It's like every precious breath,

You know,

And every precious interaction and a little sweetness of the life and all of it.

Just,

You know,

It can break your heart with the tenderness of it,

You know.

And even I somehow even came out the other side of,

You know,

Because part of my,

The worst of my sorrow was not about my,

I can die any moment,

It's fine.

It's like,

Like I said,

I don't care about it.

I love life,

I love being,

Having a perfectly wonderful time and I've been around,

You know,

Like an old turtle for a long,

Long time,

You know.

So,

But it's the little ones in my,

You know,

That was where I got plugged in and Dina,

I can imagine you have this one.

Yeah,

The little ones in my family have all these little great nieces and nephews and that was where we get really triggered.

But what has happened is there's been some silent bow to,

They'll have the length of life,

Whatever life they have.

As many,

Many,

Many beings of history,

That's how it is and how it is for each of us.

And so some,

You know,

Very hard won surrender has come through for that as well.

This has been In the Deep.

You can find the entire list of In the Deep podcasts at katherineingram.

Com where you can also book a private session by phone or Skype and see my upcoming events such as our New Year's retreat at the ocean near Lenox Head,

Australia,

Or our residential retreat in New Zealand in May of 2019.

If you're a regular listener,

Please consider making either a one time or recurring tax deductible donation in any amount that's comfortable for you.

Or you could give us a review wherever you're getting your podcasts.

Till next time.

Reviews

What a wonderful talk 🙏 ❤ exactly what I needed right now!

I laughed. I cried. I felt some things let go. Thank you

Oh my, this talk offers such profound consolation. And inspiration. My eyes wide open to climate chaos and my heart desolate about it, you offer surrender on terms I can live with joyfully. Thank you so much. I’m devouring your talks as fast as I’m able.

Thank you 🙏🏻 I will recommend this conversation to many people. The messages are so important and you convey them with such clarity and simplicity that, I believe, they can inspire positive change in any person that is willing and ready to listen.

Life itself is a koan..... thanks!