Are You A Victim, Rescuer Or Persecutor? Breaking Free From A Drama Triangle

Learn about the Drama Triangle, a social interaction model. Even if you don’t spend much time yourself playing any of these three roles – you probably deal on a daily basis with people who do. Is it possible to completely break free from the triangle and victim consciousness? Do you know how to directly and effectively communicate your needs in relationships?

Transcript

I am Anna Siewold and this is Authentic Parenting,

A podcast about personal development in the context of parenting,

Where I explore how you can find more calm connection and join parenting through the process of self-discovery and inner growth with a trauma-informed lens.

Today we are talking about the Drama Triangle.

The Drama Triangle is a dynamic model of social interaction.

It was developed by Dr.

Cartman when he was a student of Eric Byrne,

Father of transactional analysis.

The Drama Triangle maps a type of destructive interaction that can occur between people in conflict.

There are three main players in the triangle,

The persecutor,

The victim and the rescuer.

We all unconsciously play those roles in social interactions and yes,

There is a way to break free from the Drama Triangle and get out of victim consciousness.

My special guest today is Dr.

Barry Weinhold.

He wrote the book How to Break Free of a Drama Triangle and Victim Consciousness.

Dr.

Weinhold is a professor emeritus from UCCS where he founded the Counseling and Human Services program in 1971 and retired after 30 years.

He currently co-directs the Colorado Institute for Conflict Resolution and Creative Leadership and the Colorado Professional Development Center and serves as core faculty at the Intercultural Open University Foundation's doctoral program in developmental trauma psychology.

He is the author and co-author of 60 plus books and many articles in developmental psychology,

Counseling and personal growth.

He has a very impressive and extensive resume.

I will post his full bio in the show notes for your review and links to his books and website.

He is a trainer and consultant in conflict resolution,

Healing developmental trauma and numerous other topics.

I am warning you,

Once you learn about the Drama Triangle,

You'll be able to spot the Drama Triangle everywhere.

Have fun.

Please enjoy this fascinating interview with Dr.

Barry Weinhold.

Dr.

Weinhold,

Welcome to the podcast.

I'm so honored to have you here today with us.

Thank you,

Anna.

Yes,

I am wildly interested in the Drama Triangle.

This is one of those concepts in psychology or in general,

When you learn about it,

It's hard to unlearn.

You see it everywhere somehow.

That's been my experience too with teaching it to other people and they finally understand it.

They see it everywhere.

Yes.

So how did you become interested in the Drama Triangle and what was your personal experience?

I know you speak about it in the book too.

I love your personal stories.

Yes.

Well,

It goes way back.

I used to be trained and was in training with a group of people that were studying transactional analysis back in the 70s.

That whole concept of the Drama Triangle grew out of the work of Eric Byrne and Stephen Karpman.

In fact,

It used to be called the Karpman Triangle.

So I've known it for a long time and then began to apply it in my own relationship with,

I've been married now 35 years to Janae and when we got married,

We realized that we brought with us unhealed trauma from our childhood.

And so we committed to working cooperatively in our relationship to heal all that.

We said,

If we can't heal it in our relationship,

We have no business trying to help other people heal it.

So that's where we started.

And we used our relationship sort of as a laboratory to discover ways to work through these issues,

Including the Drama Triangle and how it showed up in our relationship.

Wow,

That's fascinating.

I love that,

That you both come from similar background professionally and you were open and willing to do the work.

It's brave,

It's honorable,

I really like that.

And it's kind of scary,

Right?

It is.

And you know,

How it started was,

Obviously when you get together,

Not known to you at the moment,

That's very conscious,

Is that you have brought with you certain roles and role expectations.

And that's where it all started is that when we'd go for a drive somewhere,

Janae would always get in the passenger side.

And at one point,

It became a joke.

And then we began to share the ride and the driving.

But that was like an example of how we make assumptions about how we're supposed to behave in this relationship.

And that's where the Drama Triangle comes in,

Because usually people don't ask directly for what they want and need in the relationship.

And they sort of either expect the other person to know,

Or that they in some way either manipulate the other person into giving them what they want without ever having to ask for it.

That's the kind of the basis for the Triangle.

Yes,

Yes.

But why is it?

I always ask this question,

You know,

I struggle too,

Of course,

Communicating my needs authentically,

Openly.

I mean,

It's a vulnerable process.

It's not easy to come to your closest,

Most intimate partner and say,

I'm feeling scared.

I need you to hold me or I'm going through this.

Right.

It's risky.

It has risk involved.

And I think that's one of the reasons why people adopt this is they think there's less risk involved and they can stay in their comfort zone more often.

So it's a coping mechanism.

Yeah,

It is.

And I mean,

We haven't defined what the Triangle is.

I mean,

Maybe that'd be a place to start.

I think,

Yes,

That's my next question.

So I mean,

It's a social dynamic,

And it can involve one person,

Two people,

Three people,

Or many more.

And there's three roles that rotate.

There's a victim role,

There's a rescuer role,

And the persecutor role.

And so actually,

One person can play all three roles.

But generally,

It's,

You play these roles with others in your most intimate close relationships,

Or at work or church or wherever you find yourself,

This shows up.

And I'll talk some about that.

Actually,

Some of the things I'm going to say might even shock some people,

And have even upset them that they didn't even realize that the Drama Triangle was operating so close to them and wherever they were,

Including at church and including on at work.

Or even when you look at politics,

I see it just blatantly operating.

So I'll talk some about each of those.

Yeah,

So the Drama Triangle,

It does have a,

It's a triangle,

Visually,

If we describe it to the listener,

It's an upside down triangle.

Is that what it's called?

That is because the victim roles at the bottom of the triangle,

And then the rescuer at the right and the persecutor at the left as you look at it.

And a persecutor and victim interact,

Victim and rescuer interact.

However,

Persecutor and rescuer never interact.

Right.

That's what keeps it going.

Actually,

There's another,

Actually payoff that everybody seeks.

And that's what keeps the triangle going.

And that is that there is a competition for the victim role.

Everyone would like to be,

Get their needs met without ever having to ask for them.

And so it's the,

It allows you to stay in your comfort zone and get your needs met at the same time.

You don't have to take any risks.

And so there's a competitive focus in the triangle.

Everyone is trying,

If it's multiple people involved,

To get to that victim role.

Where you get a sort of a get out of jail free card,

You get your needs met without ever having to ask for them.

And that's the goal of what keeps the triangle going.

Can I ask you to speak about each role then a little bit?

Sure.

What it entails,

Like who is the persecutor?

What does he do?

Well,

The persecutor is somebody who has kind of anger about their life and about things aren't working the way they'd like them to.

And there's always a tendency then to try to find somebody to blame that on.

And so frequently in the persecutor role,

The persecutor is looking for somebody to blame for their life not working.

And they're angry about that.

They're in a kind of a blaming mode.

The rescuer on the other side is the one who is trying to show them,

The victim,

That they are so much better than them.

And they know how to handle all things that are troubling to the victim.

And so they do things that take away the power of the victim.

And they become sort of a one-up person who can then look at the victim and then look at themselves as having higher self-esteem and look at the other people as having lower self-esteem.

So it's a one-up position.

Both of them are one-up positions,

But they come from a different orientation.

And so the rescuer usually does things for people that they never asked for.

Or they take more responsibility for fixing things than they should and making less of a shared responsibility.

They take the client's share of the responsibility,

And the other person then starts to feel sort of helpless and powerless,

Which is what a victim is.

And so that's how a rescuer,

And then how the persecutor or the rescuer gets to the victim role is interesting too.

Now the persecutor is blaming people,

But after a while,

They begin to be seen as a bad guy.

And so they have to somehow justify the fact that their anger has a purpose and a reason.

And then they usually end up feeling like they're not appreciated for what they say,

And they feel put upon by other people,

Blamed again,

Blamed back,

So that people start persecuting them and they get to be victim.

Now on the rescue side is the rescuer tries to help people who are not asking for what they need or want to try to figure out what it is they do need and want and then give it to them.

But oftentimes they miss the mark.

And then the victim says,

Well,

Gee,

That isn't what I wanted.

How come you didn't do what I wanted you to do for me?

And then the game of the rescuer is,

Well,

I was only trying to help.

But they start to feel like a victim,

That the person that they're trying to help doesn't appreciate their help.

And they're now seen as unhelpful.

And that's the worst thing a rescuer can be seen as being unhelpful.

They go into victim.

Because they came with this helpfulness and not the type that we asked or wanted.

And I know so many people like this,

They smother you with their helpfulness.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

That's the rescuer,

Definitely.

Anyone who does things for you that you could do for yourself,

And you're supposed to then be appreciative of that,

Is a rescuer.

Or if they don't even ask you if you want help,

They just jump in and start taking over and helping you.

And they probably feel then empty,

Resentful.

I could see,

Right?

Right.

And then they feel like people don't appreciate my help.

And they end up being,

They end up being,

Feeling like a victim.

So do we have default,

So to speak,

Dominant patterns?

Let's say if I'm always the rescuer,

And sometimes I play the victim as well.

Of course.

But is my dominant style obvious,

So to speak?

Yeah,

I think there is a,

I mean,

Obviously,

Anyone who is in a helping profession is likely to fall into the rescue role at some point.

And when I trained therapists,

And I've trained over 1000 different therapists over my career as a professor.

And that was one of the things I really hammered on was,

Be sure that you're not doing for something,

Something for someone that they could do for themselves.

And ask permission if you want to give them help for anything,

And make a clear contract with a verbal or sometimes even in writing.

So if you don't rescue,

Because that's a formula for really eventually burning out.

And many helping professionals do burn out because they end up rescuing too much.

They do too much of the work for their clients.

Instead of making it more equal or giving more responsibility to the client to fix their own problem.

And then as they find themselves getting burdened by that,

They start to be resentful of their clients,

And they start to not enjoy their job,

And eventually they burn out.

So and then on the persecutor side,

These are people who probably grew up with a lot of unresolved issues that left them with anger.

And it's interesting because one of the things that we teach,

I teach people is the natural function of people's feelings.

And this should have been taught to everyone in kindergarten.

So let me just briefly go through it because I think it's important for your audience to understand this.

Anger,

The function,

The really natural function of anger is to give you a signal that tells you that there's something you want that you don't have.

That's what anger is about.

And then if you're smart,

You would say,

Oh,

Gee,

I'm angry about something.

Let me think about what it is I don't have right now that I want.

And then you use that anger,

The energy behind that to go get it.

That's the more direct and functional way to deal with it.

But usually people then go into,

Woe is me and I didn't get this,

And I'm such a terrible person.

Maybe some shame that there must be something wrong with me that I didn't get this thing that I need.

So they can go through these whole three roles internally.

And then that part of it.

And then the next feeling that is very common is fear.

Well,

This is a natural response to a possibility of losing something that you have,

Already have.

And then sadness,

Of course,

Is the natural response to have lost something that you want or have.

And then joy or excitement is anticipation of getting something you want.

And then happiness is finally getting it.

So there's the five basic feelings,

And all of them are based on our needs and how we look at our needs.

But if we have a distorted view of what our feelings are about,

We misuse them.

And that makes it difficult for us to use them in functional ways,

Which is what they were intended in the first place.

Does that make sense to you?

Yes,

Completely,

Completely.

And so the persecutors often have some kind of a twist in their thinking about that.

And we,

Of course,

Study childhood trauma.

And we think that either childhood abuse or childhood neglect is behind any kind of unfinished business that people bring into adulthood from their childhood,

Any unhealed traumas.

And then we work with the adults,

Mostly trying to help them figure out ways to get those traumas healed.

Now,

And we often start with the drama triangle.

We talk with people because it's something that is easily explained,

And people start to understand it.

And then they start to think about it.

And so we think about it as a way of getting that trauma to be healed.

And we talk with people because it's something that is easily explained,

And people start to understand it.

And then the light bulbs go off and they start to see how frequently this shows up in their life.

Yeah.

Can you speak a little bit how we learn these patterns in parent-child relationship?

And I could see how this overly helpfulness shows up in parenting,

Right?

Yes.

Overprotecting your child,

What is sometimes called a helicopter mom,

Hovering over your child and making sure that everything's safe because of your own inner feelings of not feeling safe.

You project that on your child and then you overprotect.

And that's one of the biggest causes,

I think,

Of the dysfunction is that overprotection doesn't give children a chance to build any resiliency,

To learn some things by their own mistakes.

And that's an important skill to learn as a child,

To know how to,

If you fall down and hurt yourself,

What to do.

And if somebody is always there hovering over you to take care of you,

Then it doesn't give you that opportunity.

So that's one of the things.

But we look more developmentally at how this all occurs.

We have developed,

Or we have created a theory of development that involves four stages.

And the first stage we call the codependent stage.

And we wrote a book called Breaking Free of the Codependency Trap,

Which we wrote a long time ago and is still in print now,

Available through Amazon.

And it describes what should happen in early childhood.

And we define,

We call it zero to seven months.

And zero is really conception,

Because we look at prenatal development as being important as well,

In shaping people's developmental processes that they need to follow and complete successfully in order to move to the next stage without having to drag some of what you didn't finish in the stage before,

Because development is continuous.

And it doesn't stop.

You can't stop the world and get off.

It continues.

So if you haven't learned anything at seven months,

You're going to be dragging some of that with you from the next,

Into the next stage,

Which we call a counterdependent stage.

It starts about seven or eight months when the child is starting to become mobile.

They can crawl or they can walk and be mobile.

And they want to then explore the world around them.

That becomes more important to them than sitting on mom or dad's lap and being comforted.

And so,

In any way,

It's a process that goes on till about age three in our developmental model.

And the successful completion of that is tricky because very,

Very few parents went through it themselves.

So they don't know how to guide their children through it.

And so we think that less than 5%,

Maybe even less than that,

But we'll give them 5%,

Have actually successfully completed the,

What we call the essential developmental processes of these first two stages of development.

And if they did,

By age three,

The child would have developed enough trust in their own internal resources that they could go on what I call internal power.

And they could begin to rely on their own feelings,

Their own thoughts,

Their own intuitions,

Whatever,

To guide much of their behavior.

And they could also then ask for help when they needed it.

But the source of all that would come from inside.

Now,

If that is not completed,

Then they become outer directed.

And the source of everything that is important to them resides in other people.

And they have to watch them very carefully to get the clues and the signals they need to function.

And we think that that's the biggest block in creating the kind of people that function well in a democracy,

For example,

Because we expect people in our democracy to make independent decisions based on their own beliefs,

Their own inner feelings and thoughts,

When in reality,

Most people aren't capable of doing that.

And they rely on what other people tell them.

And so that makes our democracy,

It's the weakest link in our democracy in my thoughts.

So the next two stages,

If you finish those successfully,

You have a foundation to live a very functional life.

The next stage is to learn how to live independently.

And this is where you become separate from your parents,

You can start to dress yourself,

Make your own breakfast,

Tie your own shoes,

Do your own toilet work,

Everything becomes something of a challenge for the three to six year old.

But when they successfully meet those challenges,

You can see how happy they are.

And the parent again,

Responsible parents,

Would say to a child who says,

Look,

Mommy,

Look,

I just made my own breakfast.

Instead of saying,

Yes,

Being a really good boy,

You say,

Boy,

You really feel good about that.

You really feel that you accomplish something in doing that,

Don't you?

So again,

The parent's job is to reinforce the inner feeling and not,

Oh,

That was being a good boy or a good girl.

Not the judgment.

An external kind of girl.

Yeah,

It's a judgment.

It is,

Yeah.

And in effect,

What happens is that children grow up in families with what I call conditional love.

In other words,

The message is,

If you do what I tell you to do,

Then I will love you.

But if you do things that I don't like,

And I don't tell you to do,

I might not love you.

So love is conditioned upon the approval of the adults,

Which again is an externalized kind of motivation.

I have to watch what other people will react to when I do certain things.

Do they like it?

Do they not like it?

And so we start to then hide away parts of ourselves that we have found that people didn't like.

And adopt,

Right?

Children are malleable.

And so we learn those patterns and we learn to love.

We learn those patterns how to navigate.

And then we also develop shame,

Which is different from guilt in that we begin to think there must be something wrong with us.

That we do things that feel natural to us,

But other people criticize or punish us for.

So that is the basis for a shame-based belief system that most people carry into adulthood.

That's one of the things I do with my clients is help them identify any shame-based beliefs they have.

And then I take them through a five-step process in clearing those beliefs.

And this,

I think,

Is a way of helping adults function more effectively and being more authentic.

Can you give an example of a shameful belief?

Yeah,

There's a couple of them that are very common.

One of them is,

I can't tell people what I really think or believe because if I do,

They'll reject me.

That's a big one.

So then you're always monitoring what you're saying and doing with other people so that they don't reject you.

The other one is,

And the most common one I find,

Is that I'm not enough.

I'm either I'm not smart enough,

I'm not pretty enough,

I'm not whatever enough.

And that's a shame-based belief.

That means there's something fundamentally wrong with me.

And so I help people identify those beliefs and then look at the effect it's having in their life and then take them through a process of changing that belief.

It could have,

Let's say,

A person who feels that they're not good enough,

They're float and fundamentally broken inside.

It can have two sort of manifestations.

Two people can have different manifestations.

One can have this loser lifestyle and choose to go down the drain.

The other person may seek power and control and try to seek those external validations.

Is that so?

They both relate to the drama triangle.

Either one of those is played out in the drama triangle dynamic.

Are they the victim usually?

Well,

Either the persecutor or the victim.

Some may enter from the rescuer role if they think that's going to help them build their self-esteem.

If they feel kind of bad about themselves and then they find that,

Gee,

I can do things for others and they compliment me for that,

Then I feel better about myself.

And so the motivation is then,

Gee,

It improves my self-esteem to help other people.

So then I overdo it,

Of course,

Because that's the only avenue that I might have to feel good about myself.

And we talk about in parents and families is very early on,

Children create what is called a reversal,

Or the parents actually create this and children buy into it.

The normal kind of dynamic should be that parents are there to be attentive to the needs of their children and meet those needs.

But at some point,

If they're not able to do that,

They're not able to if they're not able to do that very well,

The child then takes over that role and has a role reversal.

And the child's role then becomes trying to figure out what the needs are of their parents and meet those needs for them.

I mean,

It can be very subtle kinds of things.

I can remember when I was six years old,

My grandmother said to me directly,

She said,

Now,

Barry,

Be a good boy,

Because your parents have enough problems of their own.

You don't need to create any more for them.

So I mean,

What does a six year old do with that?

Yes,

What a burden.

What a burden.

Yeah,

It was.

I had to really work on that all through elementary and high school and on into college before I could freely feel free of it.

Because I always had this kind of notion as I should be doing things to take care of my parents.

Or not doing things like not getting in trouble and things like that.

Yes,

Yes,

Exactly.

That's the other extreme,

Right?

Staying away from trouble,

Not to give your parents trouble.

Yes,

Those are the quote unquote,

Good kids.

But what's underneath?

Right?

What's the child's experience?

I had this kind of a good boy childhood.

I mean,

I tried everything I could do to be a good boy.

Well,

I missed some things that I shouldn't have,

I should have had opportunity to at least take risks and try.

I never tried drugs or alcohol or anything like that.

Until later in adolescence and my early 20s.

But initially,

I could have had opportunities to do that,

But didn't take advantage of them because I was programmed to be a good boy and not cause my parents any problems.

And especially when children are more sensitive,

They see what's happening in the family,

Right?

If a child sees that parents are fighting,

Arguing,

I'm thinking of a specific friend where this is happening.

Husband and wife argue,

There are conflicts,

And the child is trying to be the peacemaker and be always.

.

.

The child becomes the rescuer.

The rescuer,

Right.

We learned those roles early on,

Don't we?

Oh,

I know.

Yeah.

In our book,

How to Break Free of the Drama Triangle and Victim Conscience,

There's a perfect example of that in a family dynamic of how.

.

.

Yes.

Can we do that?

Give an example how this can happen in a family situation?

Yeah.

An example of a family drama triangle.

There it is.

So in Act 1,

The dad comes home from work to find his children in the family room watching TV and eating snacks.

And mom is in the kitchen drinking a cup of coffee and reading the newspaper.

And this doesn't match his expectations when he's driving home.

He fantasized when he got home,

The house would be quiet,

The children would be in their room doing their homework,

And mom would have dinner ready,

Maybe even a cold drink waiting for him.

So when he opens the front door and sees that this isn't what he had imagined,

He begins to assume the persecutor role and he vents his penned up frustrations from work at the children saying something like,

Well,

You're supposed to be in your room doing your homework.

You know the rules.

Get up there and get your homework done.

Get away from the TV.

So then the children look up kind of surprised and stunned by dad's kind of anger at them.

They feel persecuted.

And they respond then as victims.

And they might even make an excuse like,

Well,

Mom said it was okay for us to watch TV and now you're picking on us.

So they go into the victim role.

And then mom then sees what dad's doing and she comes out and she assumes the rescuer role.

And she says to dad,

Oh,

These kids were just relaxing after being at school all day.

So that's the end of Act One in the drawing.

And then the second act opens at the point where the mom then moves into the rescuer role,

From the rescuer role to the persecutor role.

And she attacks dad.

Why do you have to come home every night and yell at the kids?

And then the father then uses that to go into the victim role.

And basically then he says,

Well,

I had such a hard day at work and yada yada.

You know,

He goes into what a victim.

Yeah.

And then the children then pick up the rescuer role.

They turn off the TV and they'll say,

Oh,

We're going to our rooms to do our homework.

No,

You don't have to fight over it.

So that's the end of Act Two.

Then Act Three,

The dad shifts to the persecutor role and attacks mom.

Why the heck did you let the kids watch TV?

Why don't you have dinner ready?

What are you doing?

What have you been doing since you got home from work?

You knew I'd be hungry.

So then mom then goes into victim.

And like she hears her daughter hearing her parents arguing in the kitchen.

And she,

The daughter hears this and then comes running to the rescue and says,

Oh,

I'll help get dinner ready,

Mom.

Don't fight over it.

I'll help.

And that's the end of Act Three.

And then Act Four,

Dad sensing that he looks like the bad guy in this situation,

Tries to rescue by saying,

Well,

Why don't we just order pizza or something and not worry about getting dinner ready.

And mom who hasn't been a victim yet,

She needs to get to that role.

So she overrides dad's victim effort by claiming the supervision victim on the martyr role.

She says,

I'm perfectly capable of getting dinner besides it's too late for pizza.

I've already defrosted the meat for dinner and we can't afford to let it go to waste.

So she then feels like she's being attacked for not being a good mom.

And she then switches again back to the persecutor role and dad to the victim role.

And she says to him,

All you can think about is something that is going to cost us more money.

You don't ever pitch in and help get dinner ready.

You just complain when it's not ready.

And then that's her attempt to get dad to be a persecutor and get rid of her anger and then dad can be the victim.

So in act seven,

Dad then shifts,

Can either shift to be another victim or super persecutor.

So he decides to rage and explodes into the persecutor role so he can vent even more of his angry feelings about his frustrating day.

And he says something like,

I'm tired of always being the bad guy.

I'm going to go and watch TV.

I don't even want any of your dinner.

Oh God.

So he becomes the angry victim in this drama.

And that's how we danced at this.

Oh God.

At least this round of it,

I imagine maybe some other rounds happen afterwards,

But that's sort of the basis for it.

But how could have we avoided this,

Right?

Yeah.

Well,

I mean,

Lots of things could have happened.

I mean,

Dad could have come home and he saw the kids not doing exactly what he thought they would be doing.

And he would say,

Gee,

Well,

Let me find out why they're not doing their homework and watching TV instead.

So he asked some questions.

How was your day?

Oh,

Dad,

We had an awful day at school and that's why we're watching TV.

Oh,

Well,

I had an awful day too at work and we have that in common.

So again,

There can be building some kind of relationship and some kind of connection and understanding of why people are behaving the way they do.

Then that can lead to people asking for what they want and need directly.

So dad can say,

Well,

Gee,

What do you need from me to feel better about what happened today at school?

Well,

The kids could then think about that and decide,

Well,

Maybe they would just like to talk to dad a little bit,

Or maybe they just like to watch TV for a little longer.

And then they make an agreement about that.

So they ask for what they want.

They maybe had to negotiate a little bit with dad about how long they could stay watching TV and they find an agreement they can both live with.

Question.

So if the wife in this situation knew about the drama triangle and was very well versed and all that,

And knew how to communicate her needs,

Could she have changed the dynamic from the beginning?

If one person,

Can one person change the dynamic?

Absolutely.

Any one person on the triangle can stop the triangle.

And the best way to get off the triangle is to first maybe ask some questions to get some more information,

But then to ask for what you want or need directly from a person and ask them if they're willing to do that for you or give you that to you.

So when the dad,

Yeah,

I'm so excited about this.

This is such a juicy topic.

So when the dad comes acting as the prosecutor and raises his voice at the kids and complains and all that,

The mother could have asked,

Honey,

What is it that you need?

Exactly,

Yeah.

What asks a couple of questions.

What is it that you look like you had a bad day?

What did you need for me to help you feel calm down and relaxed?

Yes,

I'm in this situation.

Any step in those nine or seven different acts in the drama,

Somebody could have,

Instead of doing what they did,

Done what you just suggested,

Is asking for what do people need.

But see,

It's so common,

This kind of dynamics are so common in households.

We hardly stop at saying that there is nothing wrong with that.

I mean,

It happens in every household,

Right?

Yeah.

And we get so used to these kind of situations.

I know.

I mean,

The skids are greased and people just jump right into them,

Into the roles with that because they're well practiced.

I mean,

That's the thing about them is that to break free of them,

You have to then practice the opposite of it.

And that's always the case.

The opposite.

And that's always takes a while.

So it is possible to completely break free from the drama triangle.

Right.

And the most common way to break free is to commit to yourself,

Not to other people,

But to yourself that you're going to be willing to ask for what you want and need from other people directly 100% of the time.

And you,

Of course,

Wrote about this and you mentioned that you guys changed this dynamic in your relationship and you saw results.

Can you tell me how it felt when you first started communicating from your needs?

It felt a little awkward.

Yeah.

And it was kind of out of the normal kind of way we communicated.

And so at first it was a little awkward,

But that didn't take too long to pass by.

And we began to see how more effective it was.

And we had fewer arguments and fewer conflicts.

And it just turned out that we learned after trying it for a while that it works so much better than the other way we're doing it.

And is there a specific language or vocabulary that you suggest that we use when we speak about our needs?

Well,

I think it's useful sometimes if a person isn't asking,

And that's kind of common,

Then say to a person,

It looks like you need something from me.

Would you tell me what that is?

And so invite them to be direct with you.

But what if the person says,

What if it's the woman who says it looks like you need something from me and the man is the macho,

Has to play the strong man and says,

What are you trying to do?

You're assuming that there's something wrong with me or some kind of answer like that.

Yeah,

People can jump on that and use it as an opportunity to maintain the triangle.

I mean,

I think you can say to somebody in a way that you're trying to be cooperative with them,

Like,

I see you look angry,

I see you look sad.

Is there anything that you might need from me that could help you with that?

And then they have to think about that.

Do you think it is wise for a couple like this to speak about this process that they're going to apply ahead of time and discuss?

Oh,

Yeah,

I think it's very useful to make it conscious and to make those agreements conscious.

I'm not going to assume that you'll know what I want or need.

I'm not going to need.

I'm going to be willing to ask you directly if I need something from you.

And another question is,

If all my life I have suppressed and repressed whatever I wanted or needed,

And I'm confused,

I don't know what I need.

And it's hard,

Right,

For us to communicate.

Let's say I'm needing more connection from you.

But the way I ask actually pushes you away in reality.

Well,

You can say,

I mean,

I'm confused,

And I don't know what I need right now.

And you can say,

The other person can say,

Well,

It looks like you could use a hug.

Would that help?

Yeah,

Yeah.

Or something that you could make a suggestion,

Or it looks like you could use some positive feedback from me that would help you feel better about yourself.

And then you ask,

Is that something that would be helpful?

You don't just do it,

You just ask.

Never do anything first asking.

Yes,

Don't be a rescuer.

Right.

I did this the other day.

Funny enough,

My husband was having a hard day.

He was working very hard.

He had a deadline.

He stayed up all night.

And I saw that he was struggling.

And of course,

I want to ameliorate his pain.

And I came close and I said,

It looks like you're having a hard day.

He said yes.

I said,

Do you want me to give you a hug or something?

He said,

No,

Not right now.

And I didn't take it as an offense or anything.

Oh yeah,

Great.

I said,

Yeah,

Leave him alone right now.

He's in charge of knowing what he needs and wants.

And you're putting it right back on him just to tell you that.

Yes,

I offered,

Right.

And I can do that with my child or like parents who are listening.

Yeah,

The whole triangle goes,

The drama triangle goes much further than just families.

We've studied it as how it shows up at work,

How it shows up in state legislatures in Washington,

D.

C.

,

How it shows up in our religions,

And how it shows up in our current political parties.

Oh,

Speak about this.

So I talk a little about each of those.

Yes.

At work,

There's something I call the need to obligate system is operating.

And it's something like the good old boy,

Good old girl network that you see sometimes operating at work.

But the idea is you figure out what somebody else needs and then you give it to them without them asking.

And then they are obligated to do something for you.

Yes.

So and then depending on how successful they are at figuring out what it is you want from,

That you want from them or they want from you,

Then you either are successful in matching what their perception is of what they gave to you.

Or if you fall short of that,

Then you become sort of a chintzy person and not really responding to the things that are important to me.

And you didn't follow the rules,

The unwritten rules,

Of course,

That when I give you something that you need,

I expect something back that I need and you have to figure out what that is.

So that's the need obligate system.

And it's rampant at work.

And also the reversal system operates at work.

The employees are trying always to please the boss,

The one above them.

And then the boss is trying to please whoever's on the board of directors and on up the line.

And I worked in the university and it was rampant in the university.

The only people who didn't have anybody to pay attention to their needs were the students.

This is why I love being self employed,

Having my own private practice.

You can avoid that.

And then as far as how it applies in Washington,

I've looked at that and what is very,

Another thing at work is the gossip mill.

Another way that drama tries to run.

Did you hear about so and so and what so and so did?

And that's a way of kind of maintaining the triangle at work.

And there are ways to break that,

Of course,

If you just hear somebody spreading gossip saying,

You know,

That shouldn't be something you're telling me.

And if you're not going to be telling the person involved,

Then I will.

Then you break the triangle,

You break this,

Or you connect the triangle actually,

And keep Trump from having to just be the person who's recipient of gossip.

And in Washington,

The need obligate system operates with the lobbyists.

Actually rules and laws have been passed to make it impossible for our lobbyists to ask directly for what they want from a legislator and vice versa.

And in fact,

You can't even as a lobbyist invite a legislator to lunch.

That's illegal,

Unless you declare that it's a fundraiser.

Interesting.

And so the whole,

And then even as members of Congress try to get bills passed,

They have to then do this game with finding what some of their colleagues might need in exchange for their vote.

And so any kind of so-called bipartisan effort is often behind the scenes negotiated about using the need obligate system.

And again,

It's not always direct.

They don't say,

You know,

If you vote for my bill,

I'll vote for yours.

But that's implied.

I will support whatever it is that you are needing support for.

And so that's how our whole government works.

And then the political parties spinning off of that is right now,

The Republican Party is kind of the persecutor party.

And the Democratic Party is the rescuer party.

And the victims are the citizens and voters.

Oh boy.

And so it's locked in.

And again,

Competition for who's going to be the biggest victim is what drives the day.

And you can see that in the news.

I mean,

Everybody,

If the Democrats do something,

Then the Republicans say,

Oh,

They're just making us look bad.

And we're victims of their shenanigans and their manipulations.

That was true with the impeachment thing.

That's how the whole impeachment thing devolved to.

And then the Democrats can say the same thing.

Republicans are trying to keep people from being able to vote.

And they're trying to,

You know,

Block our bills from being passed that would help the people.

And we're being victimized by the Republicans.

And so the whole political system runs 100% on the drama triangle.

Well,

Actually,

Almost all of Christianity,

With a few exceptions,

Except the doctrine of the original,

Of original sin.

And that really,

In essence,

If you break it down into the drama triangle,

Means that we were all born as victims.

Yeah,

That's true.

Yeah.

And so the only way that we can be freed of our victimhood,

And usually then the persecutors are the church leaders,

Ministers and other people who are trying to remind you and convince you of your sinfulness.

Your sinful nature.

And then the only escape from that is to do enough good deeds or be given some kind of redemption from your sins by Jesus or by the church leaders.

And then you are saved,

And you go to heaven.

And if you don't do the right thing,

Then the opposite is that you burn in hell for eternity.

So this doctrine of original sin sets up the whole drama triangle and maintains it as a way of keeping people under the control of this dynamic.

Because you're never free from being a victim,

From being not sinful anymore.

You're always a sinner and always will be.

And then the only way out is to be rescued.

And so it,

To me,

Is a.

.

.

And actually,

The whole concept of the original sin was not in early Christianity.

It didn't show up until about the 11th century in the Catholic Church,

And then later was adopted after the Reformation into the Protestant Church.

And so it doesn't show up at all in Judaism or Islam or any other of the major monotheistic religions.

It just is unique to Christianity.

And there are just a few denominations within Christianity that don't believe in the original sin,

But the vast majority do.

Then the other thing that is interesting too,

That is a setup for the drama triangle,

Is the golden rule.

If you look at that,

Which is the do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Well,

That's not the original golden rule.

The original golden rule was created by a Jewish rabbi named Hillel.

And he said the golden rule is don't do unto others the things that would be considered hateful to you.

Now,

Here's the important difference between those two.

The Hillel one,

The original one,

You're not doing anything to anyone.

You're really monitoring your behavior to prevent you from doing anything that might harm other people because you wouldn't want them to harm you.

But if you take the golden rule as it exists now in Christianity,

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you,

I mean,

You can take to that sort of a ridiculous conclusion like,

If I want a new car,

I have to somehow give somebody else a new car,

And then expect that they will give me a new car back.

I mean,

That's what.

.

.

Or favor or something.

Yeah,

Right.

Right.

That's not necessarily a car.

Yeah.

I have a friend like,

You know,

Acquaintance like that.

Not a close friend.

I can't remember what I did for this person.

She's like,

Oh,

I owe you something.

I'm like,

No.

That's right.

I mean,

That's always.

.

.

Yeah,

You don't.

You don't owe.

I did it out of the goodness of my heart.

I don't expect anything.

But people think that.

.

.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If you're doing it,

Therefore,

There is an expectation,

Right?

Yeah.

And so that kind of expectation then is built into the.

.

.

And is what I call the need obligate system that keeps the triangle running.

So I have a very burning question,

Kind of.

I mean,

We have talked about needs on the podcast many times.

But I find that it's very hard for people to learn and identify their needs.

I think that's the first step,

Right?

To learn.

Yeah,

It is.

What is it that you need?

And then the second level is how to communicate those needs effectively so that your needs will be met.

Right?

Yes.

You got it.

Do you have a suggestion or a personal tactic or something that will help the listener to get in touch with their needs?

Yeah.

When I work with my clients and they come up with that kind of.

.

.

Conundrum.

.

.

.

They don't know what they need.

I have a handout I give them that lists,

It's two pages of various needs that people have,

Typical needs of individuals.

And it sometimes kind of stimulates their thinking about,

Oh,

Yeah,

I need that.

Oh,

I need that too.

Oh,

I didn't think about that.

So there's a ways around that when you just help people develop more of a vocabulary then.

I mean,

It's often that they do have the need,

But they don't know how to express that need.

And so then the second step then is to teach them how to express that need directly and ask for what you need from other people directly.

And if that person is not the one to meet your need,

Don't be resentful and angry because we can get our needs met through other means.

I often say to my clients,

And they give me that example,

I say,

Well,

You don't go to an empty grocery store to get what you need there,

Do you?

So you find a grocery store,

It has what you need in it.

So you then find people who have what you need from them and are delighted to help and give it to you if you ask for it.

But again,

There's a powerlessness and a helplessness that we are encountering here.

And that's what is behind the fact that people don't have any clue about their needs is that they never had to define them.

And they felt like at the mercy of other people.

And so that's where the justification for why I have to manipulate people to get them to meet my needs comes from is that they don't take responsibility for their own needs.

And they never had to because they've always kind of watched what other people have done.

They've always kind of watched what other people did and figured out ways to get them to give them what they needed without ever having to ask.

Yes,

Because our needs were not met,

They were denied,

They were minimized,

Rejected.

Like you said,

Be a good boy,

You know,

The burden was put upon us and so many variations,

Right?

I think that,

I mean,

It seems like it would be easy to just ask for what you want and need,

If you knew what it was that you needed.

Well,

Because of our experiences of probably asking many times as a child and being denied,

The memory of that sticks with us.

And as we grow older,

Then the risk involved with asking and someone saying no,

Becomes even greater in our mind.

And that's what keeps us stuck in the triangle.

Yes,

And as children,

We have many more wants that we communicate to our parents than needs,

Right?

The needs are sort of unspoken.

Our parents have to take care of our needs,

Our emotional needs and our physical needs.

You know,

I find that physical needs parents are very adapted,

You know,

They know what to do,

But the emotional needs are the hardest and children usually confuse the need with the want.

And when children,

You know,

Constantly want,

Want,

Want,

Want,

Want things,

Parents learn to shut down,

Right?

And children learn to not ask anymore.

And that turns into a pattern that they don't communicate their needs.

There's another way that I help my clients identify this issue.

I call it the Poodles writing exercise.

And I have them write this for each of their parents or the people who were their parenting,

Major parenting persons in their growing up stage.

And the first list is the things that as an adult now,

As you look back on your childhood,

What would you have liked to have gotten from your parents,

From either parent,

That you think now as an adult,

If you'd have gotten that,

Maybe your life would have been a little easier.

So you list all those things.

And then the second list is,

You know,

As you think back in your childhood,

Think about the things that you got that really didn't do you much good.

In fact,

Might have been harmful in some way to your functioning as an adult.

And then you make a list of those.

And then the two ways of getting through those,

The first list,

Of course,

Are the things that you didn't get.

And you can still ask for those.

You can still find people who will now give those to you that you didn't get.

And I mean,

An example for me on that list was growing up in a German Lutheran family.

Nobody ever spoke of love.

Nobody said I love you.

It was just assumed that they put a roof over my head and they flew on the table and clothes for my body,

That they loved me.

And I was supposed to assume that.

But it sure would have been nice to have heard it.

And so I eventually,

When I was an adult,

Figured out that that was something that I could have used that would have done me some good.

And so I could have sat around and waited for my parents to eventually do something around that.

But instead,

I took the bull by the horns.

And so when I was in graduate school in Minnesota,

And they were living in Pennsylvania,

And my phone calls,

I would say,

Well,

I just want you to know I love you.

And at first,

There was this dead silence.

And eventually,

There was this murder and I was like,

What are you doing?

I felt it was very uncomfortable for them.

But it broke the ice on that.

And then eventually,

They began to take initiative.

And every time after that,

When we greeted either on the phone or in person,

Or when we were leaving each other saying goodbye,

It was always accompanied with I love you.

Oh,

My gosh,

It's so interesting you say that.

I had another guest,

A German guest.

And he said the same thing that when he came to America,

He heard I love you.

I love ice cream.

I love this.

I love that.

This I love you so much.

And he said it was very foreign to him.

I know.

I find that in certain,

I speak five languages,

Six.

And it's hard to say I love you in certain languages.

Of course,

Culture is reflected through the language.

But I think in America,

It's so easy.

I love you.

I love this.

But in certain cultures,

Like in my culture,

I'm a native Armenian speaker.

It's hard to say I love you.

I speak to my dad frequently.

I don't know.

I don't say it often.

I'm not sure even if I ever say it in those words.

I love you,

Dad.

Well,

I remember after breaking through all this with my parents,

I was doing a workshop near where they lived and invited them to come and be part of it.

And so in the beginning,

We went around and introduced ourselves.

Dad was kind of a shy person.

He never talked a lot about in groups.

But at this meeting,

He stood up.

Now everybody was sharing.

They were sitting down in a circle.

He stood up.

And he said,

You know,

I just want everyone in this room to know how important it is to tell your children that you love them.

Oh,

Wow.

I could have.

My lower jaw was on the floor.

And he was so sincere.

And he got it.

And the other thing was around hugging.

I mean,

In the earlier tradition,

I was shaking our hands.

Men don't hug,

You know,

That was part of the culture.

So we just shake our hands when we either greet each other or leave.

So I just began to reach out and give my dad a hug.

First,

It was like hugging a board.

But eventually,

He loosened up and was able to give me hugs,

Even before I offered them.

And so we never after that,

Either greeted or parted without hugging each other and saying that we loved each other.

So that was a major accomplishment in my family.

And I mean,

I never thought of it as sort of initially as a problem.

But when I got older,

And I thought about it,

Gee,

You know,

It would have been nice to have heard that more often.

And I feel more confident about myself if I heard that more often.

So I decided to take the bull by horns and make it happen.

Wow.

Fantastic.

Fantastic.

I love this.

It's such a heartwarming story.

Is there anything else you would like to say about the drama triangle?

I didn't finish the second list.

I said the first list of things you didn't get that you wish you'd have gotten.

Yes,

Yes,

Yes.

And the way you deal with that list is you then figure out people in your life right now that you can ask for to get that from.

And the second is the things that you got that you wish you hadn't.

The main thing you do about that is you forgive.

And the term forgive,

If you look at it as a word that has two parts,

For and give,

It means to give back.

Give for.

And so what you do is you take a look at those things on the list.

And you say,

Well,

Where did I get that from?

Well,

Did I get that from my father?

Okay,

I'm going to give it back to him.

So you either write it on a piece of paper and burn it or you send him a note if he's still alive or whatever you want to do with it.

But it's no longer yours.

You have to take some action to give it back.

So it no longer is something that's part of you anymore.

And that's the way you deal with that second list.

Wow,

This is a great exercise.

I would encourage the listener to do it.

Yeah,

Yeah.

I'm gonna I'm gonna do it myself.

I always encourage my kids to do that with me.

That was really,

That was really revealing.

Oh boy,

I bet.

What did it reveal?

Well,

My daughter said,

You know,

She reminded me something in fourth grade when she applied to her daughter's class.

She applied to,

Or was actually in this county science fair.

And she had a science fair project.

And I must have somehow made fun of it,

Or something didn't didn't give her the full credit or support for it.

And she remembered that.

Wow.

And so we had a very nice conversation about that.

And I apologize for it.

I said,

You know,

What was going on probably is that I was teaching some of your teachers.

And I had more ego involved in you doing a project that was,

You know,

Spectacular.

And,

And yet,

The one you were doing was good.

Actually,

It turned out that she won the county science fair on her project.

Oh,

She in a way showed me up.

But but it's still stuck in her craw.

In fact,

Even then after that,

She was reluctant to have me come when she was performing or doing something.

I mean,

She,

She was in 4-H,

And she went and did a talent contest.

And she deliberately told me that she was at the end of the program.

And so I came late.

And she was first.

She didn't want me there.

So we cleared all that up with using this list.

Wow.

It's phenomenal.

Yeah,

I love that.

Well,

I can talk to you for hours.

You have a wealth of knowledge and rich experience about,

You know,

About life,

Teaching and everything.

But I want to be mindful of your time.

I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for this fantastic interview.

And please tell the listener where they can find you online.

And of course,

I'll have links to everything you offer in the show notes.

But where can they find you online?

Well,

The URL for our website,

We have four of them.

But this is the main one.

And it's the plural of my last name,

Our last name.

It's W-E-I-N-H-O-L-D-S dot O-R-G.

Okay.

All of our books are listed up there.

And all of them are available through Amazon.

I just published my 68th book two weeks ago.

What's the title?

It's called The Open Hearted Lover.

The subtitle is Love is All You Need.

And it's all about how to give and receive unconditional love.

I have to check that out.

Well,

Again,

Dr.

Weinhold,

Thank you so much for today.

It's been truly an honor and pleasure.

Well,

Thank you,

Anna.

I enjoyed talking with you about a topic that's of great interest to me.