Jim Newman | Radical Non-Dualism And The End Of Seeking

Jim Newman talks about a radical and completely valueless message. From his website - "ALL THERE IS, IS INFINITY, APPEARING AS EVERYTHING." It's almost too simple. In the conversation we danced with the difficult topic of non-duality. Language tripped me up numerous times as I tried to use the mind to conceptualise what Jim was saying. We discussed the paradoxical nature of reality prior to concepts, the illusion of the self, and the end of 'seekingness'.

Transcript

In this podcast episode I spoke to Jim Newman.

Jim could be considered a radical non-dualist.

That's sort of a concept that I can hold in my mind in order to label the message that Jim puts across.

Very difficult to hold a conversation when everything is completely negated to the sense of all philosophy,

All religious tradition,

Spiritual tradition,

All that type of thing just gets completely sliced away.

And whatever's left would be what Jim is speaking of,

The message,

What he speaks around and through and about.

So please take a listen to the podcast,

Let me know what you think about it.

Check out my website alexhitman.

Co.

Uk.

Enjoy the conversation.

Jim Newman,

Thank you for joining me.

It's a privilege.

Thanks for having me.

Jim,

I first come across this message or your message after listening to,

Well,

YouTube.

I was just watching YouTube and as a seeker does,

Falls down a lot of different paths.

Looked at Advaita and certain Buddhist lineages,

Zen and things like that.

And what you were saying just completely sort of shattered everything and completely tore it all apart.

Which is actually,

I think,

What I was actually looking for.

Yeah.

Could you,

For my listeners,

Because you're probably the most well known in this field that I've spoken to for this podcast,

What is the,

Well,

What is the message?

The core message is there's no one and what is,

Is everything.

And what is,

Is at the same time,

Nothing.

So,

And this is the problem with this type of conversation,

Because you could sort of,

You could sort of end the conversation now and it's done,

Right?

It's so radically simple.

Yeah.

That a lot of people can't conceptualize,

But even that attempt of conceptualization is wholeness happening.

So there isn't anything wrong with trying to conceptualize.

No,

No,

No,

No.

There's not anything right or wrong with anything.

So seekingness,

The energy of seekingness,

Jim,

Is that the,

People shouldn't stop seeking,

But the seeking is the problem,

Although it's not a problem.

Well,

Seeking arises out of the experience of separation and separation is an illusion,

But there's no possibility of the experience of separation with the individual not to seek.

That separate experience seeks.

It feels somehow as though something needs to happen,

As though this isn't what's really longed for,

But it's something that needs to happen for it to become that.

There's no choice about that.

So the mind,

Would you say that it's the mind that is doing that seeking,

The illusion of the identity of the person?

No,

It's the experience is the owner.

It owns thoughts.

It owns feelings.

And so it feels like because those belong to it,

That it's going to be able to use those through knowing,

Experience,

Figuring this out,

That it will make whatever it is it feels needs to happen,

Happen,

To bring about the,

Actually in the end,

What's longed for is the end of seeking.

Which is wholeness already,

Which is already there.

Well,

Seeking is wholeness seeking.

That's the real dilemma for the experience of separation,

Is it has the experience that something needs to happen for this to be free.

But when I tend to find Jim with people who sort of suggest this,

Tony Parsons as well,

For example,

They were on like a so-called spiritual path for a prolonged period of time,

Seemingly,

And then something happened or didn't happen and unraveled.

So is it a process or is it just a happening?

Neither.

It's a process as long as there's an individual because the individual loves the person.

It's a process as long as there's an individual because the individual lives in a real time reality,

In things becoming better or worse,

In the need for something to happen.

But of course,

The end of that process,

The end of the individual is the revelation that all there is is what is.

And that's not a process.

It is already what is.

This is already free.

So there's no process to this.

The experience of the idea that there's a process to this exists only in that experience of separation.

When that experience of separation ends,

This is the end of the process.

There is no process to this.

So the idea of Jim Newman,

I'm unsure on the Jim Newman story,

But let's suppose that he sat at the feet of these so-called gurus and listened to them and asked questions of them.

Did Jim Newman do that?

Oh yeah,

He did.

Of course he did.

Okay.

Supposing Jim Newman didn't do that,

I get trapped in language,

But would the unraveling have taken place?

So we'll go back to what we said at the beginning.

What is is everything.

This is what is.

What is is everything.

It's not the result of anything.

This is not the result of anything.

It's only in the dream of separation that freedom or the end of seeking would be the result of something.

But the end of seeking,

The end of the dream is actually just the revelation that there never was a dream.

There was no dream.

All there is is what is.

So of course what is is not the result of a process.

So the seeking energy that I have,

Or I am or whatever that's labeled as,

That is the wholeness.

Yeah.

But I am yearning for the end of that seekingness.

Yeah,

No you're not.

Well,

I mean on some level there might be a resonance with what's,

You know,

With with what,

You know,

The message.

But the individual doesn't,

Can't possibly want the end of its own.

The deepest longing is the is absence,

The absence of the individual,

The emptiness of everything as it is,

Or the fact that it has no,

That it's completely free already.

But that's impossible to want because one thing suggests separation.

So you mentioned in,

Go through your essays on your website,

And you mentioned the end of suffering.

Do I?

Yeah,

Yeah.

Do I say the end of suffering?

Yeah,

I think you use it as a conceptual framework.

And you've put like,

So my question to that would be,

Isn't that an illusion by the nature of the message?

Like suffering,

Suffering itself as an individual,

As a separate,

Or the idea,

The illusion of separation,

Isn't therefore suffering an illusion?

Well,

Suffering is what's happening.

Emotions are what is.

Thoughts are what is.

The only illusion is that they're owned by somebody,

Which in turn is also the experience that what's happening is real,

Or happening to me.

But I could,

I could,

We could define suffering as seeking.

And of course,

Then that sort of suffering would end.

But emotions still continue,

And thoughts continue,

Even when there's no one there owning them.

So in terms of what is known as therapy,

And psychology,

And psychiatry,

And all these things,

This message completely,

In my mind,

Supersedes all of that,

And to sort of say they're completely pointless?

No,

No,

Not in any way.

No.

There's just no relationship to them.

That's the difficulty,

I think,

For the separate experiences,

It always feels like it's in relationship to everything.

And this message,

Or non-duality,

Is pointing out that relationship itself is an illusion.

But as long as that separate experience is happening,

Therapy is a very practical exercise,

As well as meditation,

And all the other things.

The thing is that the separate experience imbues these activities with the idea that they're going to bring around freedom,

Or wholeness,

Or completeness,

Or the end of seeking.

It's impossible for anything to bring it about.

Because as we said before,

The end of seeking is what is.

It can't be brought about.

A quote from your website,

Jim,

It says,

When this message is listened to,

The seeking energy may react in many different ways.

One is to reject it offhand,

As it does not reflect its experience of itself,

Nor meet any of its expectations of logic,

Or need to find something else,

Something better or more.

It may misunderstand what is being suggested and attack its misunderstanding.

The concepts can be quite foreign to the expectation of the seeker,

Or it may believe the concepts making about itself,

And therefore inevitably,

Although falsely,

Believe that non-dualism points to a reality separate from what is.

Yeah.

My mind can't,

Which I'll get you the point,

But my mind can't grasp onto that.

No.

And that's why,

To me,

It's completely valueless.

Yeah,

Oh,

Totally.

And it's,

My mind likes to label it as sort of nihilistic.

Oh,

Right,

Yeah.

Completely pointless,

Purposeless,

What's the point in even being here?

Well,

For the individual,

Trying to have this as part of it,

You know,

To apply it to itself,

Is nihilism,

Is pointless,

Because the individual is nihilistic.

Is nihilism,

Is pointless,

Because the experience of the individual is that meaning and purpose are absolutely necessary.

But the end of meaning and purpose,

When there's no one there,

Is obviously freedom.

And that's absolute freedom.

It's not relative.

Absolutely.

In a way,

You have to say it's unrecognizable freedom.

So it's not for anyone to become.

It's hidden by the experience that something needs to happen for this to be free.

And the end of that need to happen reveals that all there is is freedom.

Already,

This is freedom.

So the emotions that very often consume the individual,

That is freedom.

Oh,

Completely.

Yep.

So there's nothing that isn't already absolute freedom.

Yeah,

That's the difficulty or the problem for the individual seeking freedom,

Is there is only freedom.

So if we look at a practical example today in the world,

And without biases or anything,

What's going on in Ukraine and Russia,

Those people are going to be saying it's disastrous,

What's going on and everything.

Oh,

It is disastrous.

Yeah.

But nothing can be changed,

Because that is freedom happening.

Oh,

Well,

Things do change.

They're actually starting to have talks.

They might actually work them.

They might come to some sort of agreement.

That's apparent change.

But the whole thing is all the time free.

What it's not is the individual hears that it's already free and then thinks,

Oh,

Well,

Then how can you say that it's good?

But freedom isn't necessarily good or bad.

So freedom can appear horribly.

So it's completely neutral and equal.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

It's not dependent on the appearance.

Because it is all of the appearance.

Yeah.

And it's only the,

I don't know how to use the word ego very much,

Because I don't really know how to define it myself,

To be honest.

But the idea of separate,

The mind that seems to be the mechanism of separation.

No.

No?

Could you?

Separation,

It begins with a tension,

A contraction in the body.

And the first thing that sort of comes out of that is the experience or knowing.

And the first thing that seems to be known is here.

That's the beginning of the whole experience of separation,

Hereness.

And then there's the I am,

I am aware,

I am conscious,

That arises out of that.

And that experience makes the appearance seem solid,

Real,

Separate,

Seems to give it meaning and purpose.

That's where separation arises.

That's okay.

So you talk the I am there.

That's very often,

Particularly in the spiritual communities,

That I amness is like the foundation of where everything arises from.

That idea,

Are you suggesting there that that is.

.

.

Illusory.

Illusory,

Yeah.

Yeah,

It is.

And it works for spiritual practice,

Because it seems to be the only independent thing I can know,

I am.

So that seems to be without relationship,

I know I am.

So it seems to be the one truth I can find.

And it's almost blasphemous,

Especially in spiritual circles,

To say that that is actually illusory and impossible to imagine.

I mean,

In a way,

You could say it's ridiculous until it falls away.

Yeah,

It's like there's no center point.

No.

Well,

There isn't,

Not really.

The center point is a dream.

So I can only mentally try and comprehend that.

Yeah.

This constricted field of energy is constricted,

Or believes illusory constricted.

Yeah.

Well,

Any idea it has about the end of itself always has itself in it.

Yeah.

They can't imagine what it's like without it.

You see,

I've had,

You've probably heard this countless times,

Jim,

But I've experimented with things like ayahuasca and other psychedelic type stuff before.

And the sense of I-ness completely just went,

That didn't exist anymore.

And that did,

There was still an experiencer,

Seemingly experiencing nothingness.

Oh,

Right.

Okay.

Sounds dramatic.

Maybe.

It's good fun.

Not at the time,

But after when you come out,

It was good fun.

Yeah.

So I don't know.

I suppose the question I was asking was,

Do you think maybe psychedelics are a good tool for people to try and get an experiential,

But then I sort of get the paradox there that the experiencer.

We're really talking about the end,

That what is,

Isn't really an experience.

That as long as it's an experience,

It's separation.

And it's experience always is looking for more experience.

And what is without an experiencer is just indescribable because it's no one to know it.

It's just unknowing.

But we're talking about this conversation.

We're talking about everything that seems to be happening,

But that's already unknowing seeming to happen.

It's freedom happening.

So can we know anything?

Well,

How to bake a cake,

How to drive a car,

Where Paris is on a map.

I mean,

All sorts of those things.

The only thing isn't,

It isn't about,

You know,

Knowing as far as information.

It's about the experience that there's someone that has that in its possession,

That there's an owner to that information.

That's the dream,

The owner.

So where would nature and being,

I suppose,

Just an idea,

A product of nature,

Is that all this is playing itself out?

Well,

That's an explanation.

That's a description.

But really,

You can't describe this.

This is just simply beyond description because there's no way,

There isn't any separation to get an idea.

It's just immediacy.

It's just the only immediacy.

And that immediacy,

You could describe it as nature playing out.

It just seems like a complete negation of everything.

Well,

It's a complete negation of the individual's need to know,

But it's actually the freedom of everything.

It's the limitlessness of this without the restriction that it has to be known or make sense to someone.

So yeah,

To the individual,

Of course,

It's a,

It's a,

It's a,

It's a,

Yeah,

Undesirable.

And this seems to align more with what is known as Eastern philosophy,

Probably more than Western philosophy in the worldly terms.

Well,

Firstly,

Would you agree with that?

I don't know.

Wittgenstein seemed to sort of say similar things.

I think he ended his book with what you can't,

What you can't,

What you say,

What you can't talk about,

You shouldn't talk about,

And now I've forgotten.

He said something quite clever at the end of one of his books.

Right.

Okay.

I think similarly about this,

I don't think he was on the same radical clarity,

But still,

I don't know.

I think there are people all over the place that have seen this.

It's ordinary.

I think it's been around quite a while.

It's just so impossible,

As we're talking,

This conversation really points it out.

It's just undesirable for that separate experience.

It calls it nihilistic.

It says it negates everything.

It says,

You know,

That that sounds cold.

Somebody said,

Somebody said yesterday,

It's very dry.

And because it had just been given anything to that separate experience,

Not because it's holding back,

But because there's nothing for that separate experience.

That separate experience only finds in its own little story,

Something for itself.

So no,

I wouldn't restrict it to Asian philosophy,

But I know what you mean.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And Master Eckhart as well.

I think he was,

I think he was a very good person.

He was talking around it as well,

To be fair.

So where does God fit into all this?

God as a concept,

Of course,

Not at all,

But God as a sort of,

I mean,

You could call this God.

It just is laden with a lot of sort of,

You know,

Baggage,

Like love is laden with a lot of baggage.

You have,

I have heard you say unconditional love and use that term.

What do you mean by that?

And I think Tony Parsons calls it the beloved.

I think you're probably talking about similar things.

What do you mean when you say that?

Unconditional love,

That there's no restriction,

That there's no limits.

To the energy.

Everything is already whole without any need to become.

So there's nothing more on top of that,

As you say,

It's got a lot of dogma,

The term love has.

There's nothing more on top of that,

Other than just complete limitlessness.

Yeah.

And this,

This.

Well,

Not just limitless,

But also whole or complete or fulfilled.

And the difficulty is that's what this is.

And the individual will then say,

But I don't feel that,

Or I don't know that.

And that of course is exactly where the fact that this is unconditional love hides with the need to know that it's unconditional love.

Or in this little circle that,

You know,

Around radical non-duality,

The need to know that I am not.

Because it isn't,

It isn't that someone knows that this isn't,

Or someone knows that this is unconditional love.

It's the end of that need to know what this is.

Which serves absolutely no benefit to anybody whatsoever,

Really.

No.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you know what I've heard,

I hear this and I've heard it numerous times and,

And there's still the seekingness and I've even tried to stop seeking,

But with the realisation that that is still seeking by trying to stop.

So completely for the end,

Separate experience,

This message points out the absolute hopelessness of trying to find what is already.

Now this isn't,

And I think sometimes it's misunderstood as the individual going,

Oh,

My life is hopeless.

This isn't for that individual.

There's in some way,

You'd have to say that this has no relationship to the individual at all.

It's actually pointing out there isn't one.

And what it's pointing to is that all the demands of the individual are part of a separate dream.

So would you consider the happenings,

The apparent happenings,

A dream?

No.

Well,

I mean,

Now we're getting into pedantic,

But not in the way I describe it normally.

The dream is the experience of separation and everything else seems to be.

So it isn't,

It isn't real and it's not unreal.

It just seems to be.

Whereas the experience of separation is just simply unreal.

It's very hard to argue though,

As an individual,

That there is,

Uh,

Not something being experienced just by no one.

Absolutely.

Because the idea that there is nothing implies that there cannot be an experience.

Totally.

Well,

It's not that there is nothing,

It's that this,

What's happening is nothing.

So the computer screen is nothing,

Computering,

Computer screening,

The words are nothing,

Wording,

Hearing is nothing,

Hearing.

It's not separate.

It's just what is.

It points out,

It points to the fact that no one,

There's no one to know it or to really realize it.

It just simply is as it is freely.

And this is,

I think we said a few times,

Just not acceptable for the individual.

It doesn't,

It doesn't reflect any of its experiences or expectations,

But sometimes it's heard.

Yeah.

So the teachers and the gurus,

Because this,

To me,

This isn't a teaching.

It's in fact,

It's possibly the complete opposite.

The teachers and the gurus who like,

They sit on the stage and everything.

I'm not here to suggest that it's wrong,

But are they not,

If they've had this unraveling or whatever it is,

By trying to tell people what to do,

Are they not leading people more into a spiral of seekingness?

Well,

I don't know about,

I mean,

It's,

And I know it seems very real as the experiencer that I am very real.

And so it's quite,

You know,

Has a huge depth to it and it must be really difficult to get rid of,

But really it's thin.

It's incredibly thin and fragile,

The experience of separation.

So it's not like they're leading them down this enormous rabbit hole,

But it does confirm the experience of separation.

Teaching does.

If the idea is that there's a real individual,

Separation is real and freedom is somewhere that could be found.

That just confirms the absolute experience of the individual.

That's what the individual feels is freedom can be found.

I need,

I could find freedom.

And that just,

That,

Like I said,

That confirms their experience.

Whereas what we're talking about here,

It doesn't confirm,

Points out it is already.

So if we call this a teaching,

Which is a bit of a paradox in itself,

Wouldn't it be that you don't need a teacher?

What would be needed if this is already free?

If freedom is what's sought,

Were longed for,

And all there is is freedom,

What's needed?

Nothing.

But that,

I mentally get that.

And I look at the world and I go,

Fuck,

The world's in a right mess.

And then I also go,

No,

The world's perfectly free,

Limitless.

It is.

And beautiful and love.

And so beautiful.

But it's absolutely free and limitless,

Unconditional love appearing as whatever.

It's the unconditional bit that the individual doesn't get its head around.

Cause it always has conditions on love.

And it doesn't mean that things have to be horrible or that things have to be good,

Or they can't move from one to the other,

Or there can't be bodies taking action to do something about that.

It just means that whatever's happening is already this freedom.

But the biases that we'd have as that point of separation are what we then label as right,

Wrong,

Good,

Bad,

Moral,

Immoral.

Yeah.

The labels are the individual having to be free.

The individual has a story about what this is and in a sense,

What it feels needs to happen for it to become whole or free,

Whether that be gaining a lot of money,

Becoming very spiritual,

Whatever.

I mean,

Every separate experience is doing that,

Being a good parent,

Being a partner.

And it's out of that experience that there's a story behind this,

Which was leading to what I'm longing for,

Where good and bad come from,

Personal judgment.

And everybody that agrees with me,

They're good people and everybody that doesn't are bad people.

Everybody that's doing things that I think are the right way to find whatever it is I've decided I feel needs to happen,

Those are good people and everybody doing things that doesn't agree with that.

Well,

Those are bad people who are wrong.

And that whole construct falls.

Jim,

Talk to me about consciousness and the idea of consciousness,

Because obviously,

Again,

You go back down the spirituality route,

Then you get levels of consciousness and maps of consciousness and different degrees and everything.

What's your take on that?

Higher consciousness.

That's it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well,

For the experience of separation for the individual,

Consciousness seems to be my power or my tool.

I am conscious of things,

Awareness.

I can be aware of this or I can be aware of that.

And it's sort of the core of my free will,

My ability to be aware,

To make decisions,

To my ownership.

In a sense,

You could say consciousness is my ownership of the appearance of what's happening.

And there's very little to say about it from the standpoint of what we're talking about now,

Because it's just part of the illusion.

There isn't any.

And I know that's very confrontational because it seems undeniable that consciousness would have to be a part of this.

And it's just not.

It's just part of the dream.

It's actually separation itself,

Knowing I know I'm here,

I know I'm conscious.

And that that it's possible for that just to fall away.

But consciousness is just not for anyone.

No,

No,

No,

No,

No,

No.

It's actually a sense of knowing consciousness,

Being aware of it.

Well,

Or what would it be if nobody knew what it was?

I mean,

It just doesn't make any sense.

It has to do with me knowing or I know I am conscious or I am aware.

And that is beyond,

This message is beyond I am-ness.

Well,

It's just,

It's not beyond.

I mean,

It's not beyond anything,

Because everything is included.

There isn't a limit.

And it's also quite simple what we're talking about,

In a way undeniable,

That there's just what is.

But what is obvious also when it falls away is that it's just part of the dream of separation consciousness.

There's just no need.

It's just too simple,

Jim.

Yeah,

It is.

And in that way,

Very unsatisfying,

Unfulfilling for the individual,

Unsatisfying.

I know.

So we could just go around in circles,

To be honest.

That's all there is.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

You know,

Time.

Yeah.

Once again,

You go to the spiritual types,

And it's like the power of now,

They can't tell you,

Everything is now.

Yeah,

Yeah.

But doesn't now imply that there is a then?

Totally.

Well,

A real then.

That there's an individual with free will that has the choice to be in a particular time as opposed to another time.

And that those two times are real.

Absolutely.

That's the dream of it.

This is actually beginningless,

Endlessness.

This.

It's just simply that.

It's just simply beginningless and endless.

This is.

And any sort of experience that there's partials,

You know,

The ability to take one part out of the other,

Is just part of the dream of separation.

So I think even science probably suggests that time is an illusion,

A state of.

Yeah,

I suppose that's all there is to be said,

Really.

Time is the illusion.

But it does allow us to sort of time and space and trying to demystify that.

And so,

Yeah,

I think that's the demystify that.

That does enable us to live a more so-called comfortable existence,

Doesn't it?

But that is just.

What does that mean?

That is just life happening again,

Isn't it?

It's just.

Yeah,

It's just like happening.

But what does that mean?

Time and space allow us to live a more comfortable.

Trying to demystify and make sense of what this is.

Yeah.

Like that provides a sense of comfort for the individual.

Yeah,

I guess it could,

Yeah.

There's a big thing now called sense-making.

Oh,

Right,

Yeah.

Oh,

That sounds good for the individual,

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well,

It just seems that they're very clever people who come up with these words and everything.

But I seem to see one end of the spectrum,

Like this message,

And it resonates with me much more.

It's like everything's so radically simple.

And the other end of the spectrum is everything so radically complex.

And it's like,

I tend to go,

Just because I think it might be a manly thing that just wants simplicity.

That's sort of where I get pulled to.

I've made that up,

Of course.

But yeah,

I suppose I'm just sort of unloading stuff here.

Yeah,

Great.

I love it.

Yeah.

That simplicity is,

This,

I think I've already said it,

Is too simple for the average person to say,

Yeah,

I can run with this.

Yeah.

Well,

I don't know about average,

But it's too simple for anyone to get.

Like we said a few times,

It's just unsatisfying to the need for something,

Because there's just simply nothing given.

And that's not because there's something to give in.

And that's not because there's something to give that's just being held back.

It's because this is what's truly longed for already.

So there is nothing to add to it.

That experience that something needs to be added is just part of an illusory experience that there's a real individual in the middle of it having the experience.

And as far as time goes,

Time isn't an illusion.

It's just an appearance.

It's neither real nor unreal.

It is and it isn't,

At the same time,

Just like the computer screen or these words or these hands,

It just is and isn't.

So,

You know,

When you run your retreats and things,

Do you not just sit in silence?

What is there to be given there?

Well,

We're not sitting in silence.

No,

But I'm intensely seeking.

Yeah,

But that's,

A lot of people that come to the meetings are intensely seeking.

So,

I mean,

It's just,

It's the same as this.

It's just a conversation about nothing.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I'm not sure what else to say,

To be honest.

No,

No,

There isn't a lot to talk about.

No,

Your day-to-day existence or non-existence as it may be.

Let's suppose,

I don't know,

Someone's running a business and they're a busy,

Busy person in the world.

And they have this,

Whatever it is.

Is that functioning,

Continual?

Well,

The functioning actually becomes more efficient because there isn't the needing to compromise with what we talked about before,

The right and wrong and good and bad,

The need to become.

That no longer interferes with just the simple functioning.

But how a certain body or character would respond when it's no longer being constricted by the need to become or the separate experience,

Who knows?

I've heard all sorts of stories from people no longer getting off the couch to people becoming more active than ever before.

I mean,

Just back and forth everywhere.

So it can appear as anything.

So once maybe if we could say the fog has been cleared.

Yeah,

Totally.

Then once again,

I'm using a bit of dogma here,

But the light completely unfolds itself and there's nothing in the way of it anymore.

Yeah,

Absolutely.

Yeah,

Exactly.

It's just what happens or what seems to be happening.

Okay.

I don't know.

I can't really hold any more conversation.

I don't know what else to say to you.

Thank you very much.

Would you suggest to people,

And again,

I understand it's from a seeker's perspective to other than yourself or the type of people who are talking a similar message,

Who would you suggest?

It doesn't matter.

People are drawn and resonate with here or there,

This or that,

And it doesn't make any real difference in the end.

It's not like anyone has any free will.

So if there's a resonance,

If something's heard somewhere,

Then there'll just be the natural listening to that or reading of that or being a part of that.

That's just what happens.

And so free will,

Now you've brought that up again.

I was going to speak to it before we had the internet cut out.

Free will is a complete idea of an individual giving them a sense of I-ness.

Yeah.

No,

No.

No,

No.

It comes out of the sense of I-ness.

It doesn't give a sense of I-ness.

Okay.

Okay.

I am is the beginning of the story,

And out of that or with that comes the sense that everything's real and meaningful and purposeful and that it's through my free will that I'm going to make certain things happen and become whatever it is I feel I need to become.

The opposite of what usual,

The free will determinism debate.

Determinism is also an illusion,

No?

Truly.

Because there's something really happening.

Yes.

So the question,

The free will determinism idea just collapses in on itself.

Just gone.

Yeah.

Well,

I mean,

It's just quite simple.

We're talking about what is.

I mean,

Where is free will and determinism in what is?

Yeah.

It's just difficult,

Again,

For the mind to go,

I can't do anything about anything.

Everything is just,

Would you say,

Chaotic or- It's not that you can't do anything.

There's no one to do it.

But all sorts of things are happening all the time,

Apparently.

So it has nothing to do with happening.

It's that there's no one to do it.

And the need to bring around freedom is an illusion because this is already free.

The need to overcome separation,

Which of course no individual wants to.

It's the end of it.

It's not wanted.

It's just part of the illusion that there's separation that's real.

It's not.

What is is already unspeakably whatever it is.

Unknowably whatever it is.

So I've written the word,

I want to say the word,

But then I know that it's a bit of a stupid thing to ask,

Right?

So I've written down the word death,

As in,

I think there's some religious stuff like die before you die sort of ideology.

Would you suggest that this is what that is?

Well,

Not that somebody really dies,

Though,

Because the end of that experience of separation is really just the revelation that there never is separation,

That that's the dream.

And it's only separation in separation,

Which isn't,

That the individual could die.

And because there is no separation,

There is no individual.

So no individual ever dies.

But bodies die.

Apparently.

Apparently.

So there's more of a,

It's more of a,

Without the dogma,

A revelation,

Or rather than,

Yeah.

Okay.

And it's not a finding of something.

It's the losing of something that never happened.

So no one finds freedom.

What's lost is the experience that something needs to happen for this to be free.

Nobody finds perfection.

It's the loss of the experience that perfection is,

Is conditional.

Yeah.

I don't know what else to say,

Jim.

I'm lost.

I'm done now.

The mind has been completely battered around and,

And yeah.

There's just nowhere to go.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So thank you,

Jim,

For speaking to me on the Dancing Paradox podcast.

I really do appreciate it.

Have you got anything coming up,

Particularly in the UK?

Just look at my website.

Okay.

Okay.

That's,

What is it?

What's your website called?

Simply this dot com.

And there's a hyphen in there somewhere.

Simply hyphen this dot com.

Yep.

That's it.

Okay.

Jim,

Thank you for joining me.

Thank you,

Man.

Take care.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Reviews

This is by far the most uncompromising message of NonDuality I have EVER heard. It is not for everyone but it truly resonates here. Thank you both💜