Interview On Codependency And Anger With Michelle

This is an interview I did on healing codependency and anger. We do a deep dive into what is codependency and how to identify and embrace our anger and other difficult emotions. Codependent people tend to stuff difficult emotions especially anger but not all anger is unhealthy. Learn the value of anger and how it related to codependency recovery in this talk.

Transcript

Hi everyone! Welcome to the Healing Narcissistic Trauma Conference. I'm Susan Ball, Abuse Recovery Specialist and your host. Today I'm chatting with Michelle Ferris. Michelle is a licensed psychotherapist and anger management specialist practicing in San Jose, California. She specializes in codependency and relationship skills that focus on self-care, Healthy boundaries, And communication. Her tools are easy to implement quickly. She has been featured in several online publications and has written three e-books and created online courses to support private learning. Her guilty pleasure is watching Netflix and vending lattes from Starbucks. Hi Michelle! Welcome, Welcome, Welcome! Thank you so much for having me, Susan. This is going to be really fun. We're going to be talking today about the value of anger in codependency recovery and that's a huge topic. So what is codependency? As you know, There's probably so many different definitions on this, But for me it's about when we become overly focused on helping, Rescuing, Changing, Or controlling other people. And what that does is that makes us neglect ourselves. So we become outwardly focused for approval, Validation, Our decision making, Versus really being able to trust ourselves. So it really plays havoc with almost every aspect of your life. Self-care, How you feel about yourself, The quality of relationships you're going to be able to build, Who you attract. I've seen people who are really codependent at work and they end up doing too much and never setting a boundary and then wiping themselves out. So it really can show up in a lot of different areas. It can show up in your family and with your friends as well. Oh definitely, Definitely. I was very, Very codependent with all things, Including my job. I was always the one that was left at the office building, Never setting a boundary and never getting anywhere. You know, I think part of what we need to remember with symptoms like that is that when they're done in moderation, They're really a strength. Codependents are really hard workers and they're super committed. And that's something we want to preserve. It's just that when it goes against yourself, Then it becomes, Obviously you're going to pay the price because you're going to wipe yourself out. Exactly. So the anger, Expressing their anger. This is something, And I remember being a chronic codependent for so long. I never got angry or I didn't express it. I hid it somehow. I took it, I guess. Yes. I was the exact same way. If someone had told me when I first started my own codependency recovery, Look at your anger, I would have said, You're crazy. I'm not angry at all. But I could relate to being resentful. And I think that's a word that codependents tend to recognize because we tend to stuff how we really feel because we're people pleasers and we don't want to. . . We end up hurting ourselves because we're stuffing all that hurt and it has to leak out somewhere. I think in the beginning, Anger is that big bad wolf word that they don't relate to. But I think resentment, Frustration, And stress can be those easier terms in the beginning to identify. But eventually, We have to be able to look at our anger and really validate it because codependents do so much for other people. They can't help but have some form of anger. It just takes a while to get to it. Exactly. And I love that you brought up resentment because when people would question me and say, Ask me about being angry or upset, I would say, No, But I have resentment towards this person. Yes. But it didn't mean that I wouldn't go back and do it again or help them out or try to fix them. Exactly. That resentment didn't stop that behavior. No, Because think about it. I mean, When we are in our codependency, We get kudos for being the giver, The volunteer, The person who is super reliable. I mean, People love that about us. So I think that's where codependents don't want to get into recovery or don't want to change because they think, Well, How the heck am I going to be loved because this is what people know of me? And I always tell them, It doesn't mean you stop giving. It just means you stop giving to the point where it's at your own expense. So you find a way to still be generous in giving, But with boundaries. And we're both laughing, But I can remember when I was first introduced to boundaries and I was not a young woman when that happened. I really didn't know what that meant. Well, I think it's really hard because I think people tend to think it means getting somebody else to change versus like the codependent wants the alcoholic to stop drinking, But they can't control that, But they can control whether or not they hang out when the alcoholic is drinking. Yes. And I think when people get into their control, It's really about safety. They're just trying to keep themselves safe because I think we get really control is that judgmental word of, Oh, I don't want to be controlling, But really underneath that, They're just trying to stay safe and protect themselves. And they think by controlling the environment, They're going to stay safe. But of course that creates a lot of havoc in our relationships because nobody likes to be controlled. It's a survival response really. Yeah. Okay. So why is embracing our anger so critical? I know for me, The turning point was realizing that I was angry because in codependency, We get into this people pleasing stuff. Once we get in touch with our anger, We can acknowledge it and say, Okay, You know what, Instead of I can only acknowledge certain feelings, I'm going to acknowledge all of them. And when we can do that, It's so much healthier because anger really signals us that something isn't right. Whether it's internally, Maybe I'm thinking the worst, Or maybe I'm in a super bad mood and I'm holding onto a resentment, Or maybe something externally is happening where somebody just said something hurtful, Or my boss just yelled at me. So it's like that anger is a gift because that tells me I have to do something, Whether it's in the environment or within me. But if I don't pay attention to that, Then I'm not going to be taking care of myself. And that pile of hurt and resentment is just going to get bigger. One of the things that I learned as a young girl was that good girls don't get angry. And that fed my people pleasing and my codependency, Sadly. I was taught that an angry woman was an unloved woman was a bitch, Was all of these negative terms that went along with being an angry woman. Let's talk about that for a minute, Because I think there's a lot of listeners out there who are caught up in the good girl scenario. Well, Yeah, Because I think a lot of us, When we grew up with alcoholism and dysfunction, We see anger as rage. We want to be firm, But not scary. So I can be a little loud when I'm angry, But there's a line between being a little loud and yelling, Or sounding intimidating, Or sounding snarling. There's a difference. I think if we got the example that anger is not scary, It's part of life, It helps us actually resolve things, Because it, Again, Tells us that something isn't okay, Then we learn to embrace it and not be afraid of it. But you're right. I mean, When we grow up with rage, We think, That's the last thing I'm going to do. So we go the other way and people please, Because we think we're going to avoid harm by doing that, Versus, Well, That's not our only choice. Anger isn't necessarily rage or passive aggressive behavior, Because that's the other flip side of it. Yes. And I've met a lot of people who are passive aggressive. And I think to myself, You got a lot of anger in you. Yeah. And I think codependence are really, I think that typically is how we do anger. I know for me, It would leak out in really indirect comments, Because at some point I couldn't hold it in anymore. And that's what happens, Is we are nice, Nice, Nice, Nice. And then all of a sudden in a situation, We leak something out and the other person goes, Ooh, What did that mean? And then we may even deny it and say, Oh, No, No, Everything's fine, Because we don't even realize that it's leaking out. And again, That's the gift if we can own it and realize that, Wow, Indirect anger can be just as unhealthy as rage. Yes. And it does leak out. It does come out in other ways. It does. Yeah. Sarcasm, Guilt trips, Silent treatments. Ultimatums. Absolutely. Absolutely. I was given a few ultimatums and I have given a few in my time. Yeah. I think we all have. And I look back and then I say, Ooh, Ooh, I'm surprised you won that one. Yeah. Yeah. And I think when a codependent person is able to acknowledge their anger, They are well into their recovery, Because that's a huge step. And I don't think that's something people do in the beginning. So for those of you listening, If you're just starting the path, Don't expect, It's okay that you don't get in touch with your anger right away. It may take a few years. I mean, Some people it takes several years because we just can't relate to it at first. But if you can relate to resentment or stress or frustration, That may be an easier starting point. There's this space out there or this energy out there that's saying, Embrace your good emotions and not necessarily the bad ones, But we have to embrace all of them. Would you agree with that? I mean, We have to embrace- Definitely. And I think the hard part with that is that when we have denied our anger for a long time, It may come out as rage in the beginning. And that's where I remember hitting the pillows with a therapist a long time ago and getting it out physically. Because in the beginning, It may be more intense, But eventually when you can really get that out safely, Anger becomes just anger. It doesn't have to look like rage. But I do want to let people know that if you've denied it for a long time, It may be bigger in the beginning. When we go from denying to opening it up, Sometimes we swing to the other side. But that's also when you might need extra help because if you can't contain that rage, Then you're going to need more tools and more support to make sure it doesn't hurt yourself or your relationships. Exactly. I know when I first started dealing with my anger, Michelle, It came out as rage. Yeah, That's really common. Oh, Really big rage. And as I started to explore my childhood and my abandonment wounds and all of that, The rage would percolate. And that's what I looked at it as, A coffee pot that was boiling up. And I could feel it. I could feel it coming. And I would go and do my journaling or I would do something. Sometimes I would walk around the block at a very fast pace with my fists, Just letting it out, Steaming it. Oh, Physical exercise is so good for that. Yes. Or I'd listen to really hardcore rock and roll and dance it out or whatever it was. But don't be afraid of the rage. There's a point in time where it serves a purpose. Let's put it that way. It serves a purpose in your healing. Yeah, Absolutely. It does. And I think exercise and writing it in a journal, Because you can do that without censoring yourself, Can be really effective ways to get it out yourself and really give yourself a voice because it's really, Really important to be able to honor our anger so that we can move through it. Thank you for listening. And I wish you deep, Loving recovery, Peace, And happiness. Bye for now.