24. Religion Vs. Spirituality: How To Become Better People

In this episode of Spiritually Hungry, Monica and Michael examine the difference between religion and spirituality and how both are meant to help us, as individuals and as a collective, change and grow. Listen as they explain the true purpose of religious writings as a framework for connecting to the vital energy of the universe and how we attract more of this energy by our actions and consciousness.

Transcript

Everything that has become religion,

Certainly in the Judeo-Christian tradition,

Was always meant as a way for the individual to grow and to change.

Some people are religious because they want to connect to the godly aspect within themselves,

Right?

And then I think people are spiritual because they also are looking for purpose and meaning.

If you want something great to come into your life,

You need to be acting in a great way like that energy.

To sit and say,

Okay,

I'm going to create my own spirituality,

It's just about me and feeling good in my body.

Well,

What about being part of something where people will push back and say,

You know,

Rethink what you just did,

Or can you do something better,

Or how are you changing and growing?

I think that needs to be an aspect of any spiritual connection or process.

Absolutely.

A spiritual practice,

A spiritually based religious practice,

For example,

Must be showing its benefits here and now.

If you're doing it right,

You're seeing it right here.

Welcome to the Spiritually Hungry Podcast,

Episode 24.

So while we were thinking about what the title of our podcast would be,

I don't know,

We had a bunch of different ones and I kind of considered this one,

Although I don't think you did,

But one of the working titles was,

You might want to wait till I say it before you take a sip.

Oh,

It's going to be funny.

Well,

Was The Rabbi and the Writer.

A little funny.

But you and I both don't like labels,

That was too limiting.

But- Also,

The religious connotation of it.

Exactly,

Which is why I'm bringing it up today,

Because we are going to speak about something that I think we might take the roles of rabbi and writer.

But I am interested in hearing your perspective and in case all the listeners haven't figured it out,

We are going to be speaking about religion today and perhaps you can even say religion versus spirituality,

Because I think that's a conversation that many,

Especially many young people of today are having more and more- I think people in general,

But not just young people.

Yeah,

But statistically more and more people,

Especially young Americans,

Are saying that they're spiritual and that they're not religious and that they want to come to find their own spirituality or their own connection and not just according to what their parents have done.

Right,

And I also think it's very admirable,

I heard a conversation recently,

Now is sort of the end of December when people are celebrating mostly Christmas throughout the world and some people are celebrating Hanukkah and of course there's the Adam Sandler songs that usually come out around this time.

Sing it for us,

Michael.

Sure,

Sure,

Sure.

Not everybody knows what you're talking about.

How does it go?

I don't know,

Most of the people know,

If you don't I'm sure you can find it on YouTube.

Oh,

Hanukkah,

Let's- Something like that.

Oh,

Come on,

You've so- Let me see if I remember any parts of it.

Yeah,

That's the way it goes.

That's the best I can do right now,

But go onto YouTube or Apple Music,

I'm sure you can find it.

Actually,

A fun fact,

When I was in grade school and we would have to sing,

It was a public school,

We would sing both Christmas songs and Hanukkah songs and my friends who stood behind me on the bleachers would sing,

Oh Monica,

Oh Monica,

Come light the menorah.

And nobody else could hear that,

But I'd had that in my ear the whole time.

I think so.

So it's a time when I guess the topic of religion at least is certainly brought up and is- Or considered,

I guess,

More.

Yes.

And then actually with the conversation I was listening to was that question of,

This was a couple who were Christian and Jews who were married,

Should they put up a Christmas tree,

Should they light the Hanukkah lights,

And so on and so forth.

And of course there's other religions that celebrate during this time and throughout the year really.

I remember when I first learned,

And again this is probably not news to many of our listeners,

But that in Russia the Orthodox Christmas goes on until the beginning of January.

And so on and so forth.

And our meaning Christmas is on the New Year,

I think actually,

January 1st.

I hope I got that one right,

I'm going to get some letters.

And the question of course is,

What does it mean to me?

When I say me,

I mean any one of our listeners.

And I think- Religion.

Well,

That's the question,

Right?

What does religion mean?

I think this is the purpose of this conversation,

But I do- I think when people think about that,

Right,

They think about what they don't like in terms of religion.

I don't think they're really thinking about religion,

Which I- But I'm not sure that's true.

I mean you have- Well,

A lot of it- People who- Yes,

But a lot of the people today who will consider themselves to be- Spiritual,

But not religious.

Spiritual,

But not religious.

SBNR.

Have an ethnic connotation.

I think they would consider spirituality,

Which I think this is not our view really,

But it would be more about self-help,

Maybe it even includes yoga or poetry or art or being at one with the self.

And religion would be viewed as more something that your parents enforce on you,

A lot of rules somehow tied to politics perhaps even.

It's something organized.

And so again,

That's usually when you're comparing the two.

In fact,

On dating sites,

When they ask you what your religion is,

The one that's checked off most is SBNR.

Oh really,

That's interesting.

I didn't know that.

It's been a while since I've been on a dating site.

Were you ever on a dating site?

You lucked out,

Honey.

You met me early on.

It's like every conversation the other day where like,

I'm so happy.

I never had to go on dating.

I mean,

Can you imagine where we'd go if somebody- I would have been so judgy.

I would have been horrible.

Especially in the world today.

My guess,

My assumption is even from the anecdotal stories I hear that it's much more difficult to date.

I think really there's three topics that we're going to touch upon.

Religion,

Spirituality,

And of course,

God.

Because I don't think you can really pull apart one of those three from the other.

But I do think it's the right time of year to be talking about it.

And I do hope that our listeners get something inspiring from our conversation around it.

Did you want to share something to start?

No,

Rabbi.

Is that a fake laugh?

No,

No.

Try not to fake laugh with me.

I think foundationally,

This is certainly our view.

And when I say our view,

Certainly the way you and I live our lives.

Most importantly,

I strongly believe this is based on thousands of years of wisdom.

And it's a thought that for some of our listeners will sound right.

To some of our listeners it might even sound blasphemous.

And that is this,

That religion as it has come to be understood and seen and often practiced was never meant to be a rote following of laws.

Which would mean that when Moses is interacting with God and writes down this book of the law,

Which is called the Torah,

There are many people throughout history who view that as God says this,

Do these 10 things or don't do some of them,

Do this 613 things,

Whatever that list is,

And I'll be happy with you.

It might not make sense.

It doesn't matter.

You have to listen to the word of God and then everything's fine.

Of course,

There's other beliefs such as you have to accept certain things and then you're okay with God.

But the separation between the individual's development,

Growth,

Transformation and change,

And their adherence to a godly decree has become separate.

Would we believe,

And again,

Like I said,

This isn't just our personal belief,

But based on thousands of years of wisdom,

That that was never the case.

That everything that has become religion,

Certainly in the Judeo-Christian tradition,

Was always meant as a way for the individual to grow and to change.

So there's a few very famous stories that are mentioned in the Talmud,

The ancient text based on the Torah.

The story is that there was a person who came to a great sage,

His name was Hillel,

And he said to him,

I want you to teach me all of the Torah.

Again,

To some people that might be translated as religion.

But he said,

Teach me all the wisdom of God in one sentence.

He literally said,

Well,

I'm standing on one foot.

And Hillel said to him,

He said,

What is negative or onerous to you,

Do not do to somebody else.

Which means treat others that you yourself would want to be treated.

Another related story,

A great sage,

Urbe Akiva,

Who said,

There was one verse in the Old Testament in the Torah,

Love your neighbor as yourself.

That and he said,

That is everything.

Everything else is a commentary.

Right.

So that just says it's less about rules and following and more about actions of transformation.

Kindness and transformation.

I would go further as to say that it's not at all about following rules or decrees of God,

But that it is singularly focused on the individual's development,

Growth,

And change.

Right.

But I think the confusion even stems or begins with God gives Moses the 10 commandments,

Okay,

Or the 600.

Right,

That's the biblical story.

Right.

There's no conversation or question.

Well,

What do those 10 commandments really mean?

Right.

Or it seems like these are rules that you must follow.

And if you do,

Then you're a good person.

We hear a lot.

You're a good Christian.

You're a good this.

And if you follow that,

Then you'll go to heaven.

If not,

You're going to go to hell.

When did it get so disconnected?

That's a very good question.

I do want to,

Before I answer that question,

I do want to really underscore this because this is foundational.

This is you either accept this or you don't.

Then again,

You know,

Of course our listeners are,

Are,

Are open to either,

You know,

Either the way we,

You know,

One of the things that we strongly believe is that there is no coercion or really forcing of one opinion over the other.

But certainly the way we view what some would call religion,

Certainly what we view as spirituality is that from the beginning,

Not that this is,

This is,

Again,

There are some thinkers,

Philosophers and,

And,

And,

And professors who say that the spiritual layering around what others viewed as religion came later in time.

Not true.

At the beginning,

At the seed of what came to be known as religion was only one purpose.

Only one purpose.

How do I as an individual,

How do we,

Humanity as a collective transform and become better,

Better people all the time?

You're saying this was understood in all.

This was,

This was the only purpose.

There was never a purpose to,

To the Bible.

There was never a purpose to,

To Moses,

To Jesus,

To any one of,

Of the founders of what became known as religions.

And again,

This is a very long,

Most of my life studying this and I,

You know,

I can literally go on for hours and enjoy it.

But,

But for our listeners that the only reason Moses did what he did,

The only reason Jesus did what he did,

The only reason God,

If you want to use that word,

Did what he did in,

In creating the foundation of what became religion was one,

Was one attempt.

How do I get people to,

To become better?

How do I get people to change and become better?

Now you asked the question,

So where did it all go wrong?

Yeah.

Right?

And there's so many different religions now and how did it get miscommunicated and,

And why was it already understood that did we come into this world flawed?

I mean,

Why is that the.

.

.

I know,

But if you're going to open the can,

Let's open the can.

Well,

Okay.

Let's talk a little bit about where did it go wrong or,

Or where did the misunderstanding happen?

And there's a beautiful teaching from Rav Aschlag,

The founder of the Kabbalah Center.

He says really something that is,

Again,

To some people might be blasphemous.

I think it's revolutionary and beautiful.

Most of my knowledge base is in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

And of course we know there are many other religions out there,

But,

But I believe that the foundations of what we're talking about will apply to all.

Moses leads a group of about 3 million people out of slavery in Egypt.

There comes a time spoken in the Bible about as the revelation at Sinai,

Where a book is brought down,

A book which many people interpret as a book of laws.

We're saying,

And not baselessly,

But based on thousands of years of wisdom,

That the only purpose,

The only purpose for Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt,

The only purpose of what's called the revelation at Sinai,

The only purpose of the Bible was to give each one of us individually and the world collectively a way to become better,

To grow,

To change,

To become more kind and more sharing and ultimately transform our world.

But Rav Aschlag says the following.

And it's really an amazing,

I think,

Revelation,

Revolution.

Moses slash and God realized that the people weren't ready yet.

You know,

If you go to somebody and you say,

I want you to stand up for an hour every day,

Stand straight,

That's easy for people can follow rules sometimes.

You don't like following rules.

I know.

I definitely,

But it's,

But it's clear,

Right?

If I tell you there's point A to point B.

Exactly.

And there's a list I can give you all this.

I need you to do 10 things today.

That's easy for people to understand even forget about accepting,

Understand.

But if I go to you or you go to me and you say,

I need you to become a kinder person,

I need to transform.

That is at least two problems with that.

One- You might already think you're kind.

I might think I'm kind.

I can't,

It's hard for me to assess.

And number two,

I might not want to.

I might not want to change.

I might,

You know,

My ego might tell me you're good enough as a person as you are.

You don't have to be any more kind.

You don't have to grow,

Diminish you,

You go any way and so on and so forth.

So what happened historically is that Moses said in God,

With God's agreement,

We're going to create a shell,

A shell that is not the truth.

Again,

I know some people for some reason- Yeah,

You're- But,

You know,

I have to,

I have to share what,

What,

What again,

Thousands of years of wisdom have said and what I strongly believe,

But a framework,

A shell that will give this to the people.

Why?

Because there will come a time,

It might be 500 years from now,

It might be a thousand years from now,

It might be 5,

000 years from now,

When people will be more developed and more able to understand the true spiritual underpinnings of this shell.

And that's what happened in Sinai and in the desert is that Moses gave the Israelites,

And this was God's plan,

You can call it,

A shell.

Without the deeper understanding of it,

Or one would say the secret understanding of it,

The spiritual understanding of it,

It's almost pointless.

As a matter of fact,

It might even be negative.

Yeah,

I mean,

It seems like these rules don't actually create transformation.

Religion maybe just stops people from doing something terrible like do not kill someone or respect your mother and father.

And by the way,

We have seen throughout human history that the Bible,

Religion actually was used as a tool to harm people,

To kill,

Again,

You know,

My father would often say there's probably nothing else in the world that has caused as much bloodshed as religion.

So it's not only that viewing religion without its spiritual underpinnings is not positive.

It's dangerous.

It's really very dangerous.

And this is,

You know,

Really what we dedicate our lives to.

But as we share this with our listeners,

This is very important.

This is fundamental.

Again,

There are people who are interested in religion and that's fine.

Some people are not interested in spiritual,

That's fine too.

But for those of us who are either struggling or desiring to understand at least the history,

If not what it has to do,

Nor what it has to tell me today,

This is a very important thing because your question was how did it get there?

Well,

This is how we do it.

Well,

I also think that it's for people who are interested in understanding purpose of soul because some people are religious because they want to connect to the godly aspect within themselves,

Right?

And then I think people are spiritual because they also are looking for purpose and meaning,

Right?

Right.

So it's now we're getting into loss and translation all over again in this modern time.

Well,

The only except that there are,

And again,

Maybe none of our listeners,

But there are many people in the world who have a view that following religious practice,

Divorced from spiritual development is a good way to live.

Well,

You'll be saved.

I don't even know because a lot of times that's not enough at some point,

Right?

I know a lot of people who suffer and who are very religious,

But they're suffering,

Right?

And again,

And I often say this when I talk to people about this topic is that I strongly believe that if Moses,

Jesus,

Any one of the foundational figures in any one of our religions would view our religious practice today,

They would be very surprised and disappointed because that was never the original intent.

And certainly God would be disappointed.

There are countless verses in the Old Testament that speak about God's upset with religious people.

There's literally a verse where the prophet says the word of God is,

I am disgusted by your religious observance.

And I think this is a very important notion for all of us to hear,

Especially those of us who are in one way or another interacting with our religions is that the original intent,

And this has to be the focus therefore.

If those of us who choose to follow religious rituals or practice,

What I would strongly,

Only urge is make sure that it is attached to spiritual growth and transformation.

Well your father,

Darav said something that I think is appropriate in his book,

Wills with Soul.

He said,

We've been told that our suffering is a test that has been given to us by God with heaven or hell,

The reward or punishment that awaits us.

Many people give credence to this explanation,

Not because they have proof of its validity,

But because it's been handed down to them by their parents who have picked it up from their parents and rabbis and religious teachers who have in turn described it to be the authority of the Bible.

Yes.

And again,

And we strongly disagree with that notion of life.

I know we're going to talk about Kabbalah at some point,

But I do think it's important to,

Because this is where your upbringing,

It's been rooted right in decoding what we read in the Bible,

Right?

Because how do you know?

How do you know what the truth is?

So how do you know what one verse means about I'm disgusted with your religiosity?

Or anything else,

Right?

So how do you really know what is meant by that?

That's a very good question.

I'm actually going to write this.

I don't want to forget,

But I do think it's helpful first.

Oh,

So you're going to write down my question for later?

Yeah,

I'll write down your question.

You said you have a question for later.

Do you have a question for later?

I always have questions for later.

But I do think it's helpful at this point to talk about God,

Right?

Because I think unless you are basing your religious,

Spiritual practice,

Belief or understanding on what I would say,

I don't want to say the right view of God,

Because that's one of the things I think it's important in both in this discussion and always is to understand the level of humility.

Even if you've been studying wisdom as I have for close to 40 years now,

Over 40 years,

That the more you know,

The more you realize you don't know.

Anything we know and even anything we share is an aspect of understanding.

I often say none of us can say we know the truth.

We can hopefully have elements of the truth.

In terms of relationships with God,

I was speaking to somebody just yesterday who's having some relationship issues.

But really through the conversation,

We came to the realization that the biggest obstacle is the relationship he has with himself.

He said that the day before we met,

He was on the train and he was actually talking out – he's very normal – but talking out loud to himself in the train,

Really yelling himself and actually yelling at God.

I was of course really curious and of course I knew we were going to talk about this idea on our podcast.

So I said,

Well,

What were some of the things you said to God?

Because I haven't had that voice.

I haven't heard that conversation.

Maybe I had a time in my life where I was like that I think we all are,

But I was like,

Oh yeah,

I remember that.

He said that he was thinking that God was a punishing God.

What do you want me to do?

Why are you making me suffer?

Why aren't you showing me the way out?

I'm doing everything right.

I'm trying so hard to be perfect and still it's not going my way.

And making deals with God.

And that one really resonated because I remember I did that when Josh was born.

For those of you who know us intimately or even just listen to us,

He was born with Down syndrome and I remember I wanted the doctors to take the test again.

And they said,

Well,

We're 99% sure the test is not going to lie.

And at that point they said,

No,

He has Down syndrome.

I said,

What does it matter if you just take another test?

They eventually agreed to do it the next day.

And those 24 hours,

Oh,

I made deals with God.

Please if you just,

I don't think we were that close in the way we are now then.

I mean,

These are the kinds of things that my not kind self narrative,

Right?

And please just make him not have this.

I'll do anything.

And then a few months after he was born and I got to the other side of this and I realized how lacking I was,

You can call it faith,

But I want to call it certainty in my connection with the creator and also with myself and it opened so many other things.

But I find it laughable that that's where I was really making deals with God and it just doesn't work like that.

So I just,

Now we can talk about God,

But I just,

I think that that's where a lot of people live.

You know,

They'll have this,

Even people who believe they'll have a certain amount of faith until it's tested and then this becomes a conversation.

And so this punishing God I want to talk about versus the reality of what God really is.

But actually before that you're just reminding me of a joke that I don't think it's very,

Very funny,

But I know a lot of people do.

So tell me if,

I don't know if I,

If I shared this with one of you,

This mother is with her young child at the beach,

Young son,

And the child goes into the ocean and a big wave comes and he's really pulled out deep into the ocean.

And so the mother starts making deals with God,

God,

If you save him,

I promise you I'll do everything or whatever.

She begs God and so on and so forth.

And as she's begging God and making these deals,

A big wave comes and pulls him back into the shore and he's saved.

And the mother looks at the child and says,

He had a hat.

Not so bad.

Maybe some of our listeners have chuckled.

That's more on human nature,

Right?

Yeah.

So again,

Foundationally,

We'll say our view of God,

Again,

Based on thousands of years of wisdom.

You laughed a few episodes ago when I,

You know,

Said,

You know,

There's not a guy in the sky.

The guy in the sky.

You said the big guy in the sky.

The big guy in the sky.

So what's the understanding?

And again,

With all humility,

This is a piece of the truth.

We never had the whole truth.

The Kabbalists refer to what we call the light or the light of the creator.

Often in modern terms,

Certainly my father,

When he would explain this,

He would talk about energy.

Energy is a concept that,

At least,

You know,

In the past hundred years or so,

Everybody's familiar with.

You know,

It's interesting.

It's only really been a hundred years since that reality.

And when it was first discussed,

A lot of people were like,

What is this energy thing?

Right.

Right.

Because you can't necessarily see it.

But if you view what others refer to as God,

What we often refer to as the creative force or energy behind the creation of our world and each one of us.

It's a force.

It's a force that is neither angry nor happy,

But it's simply a force.

For example,

We know electricity that runs through our house.

If you want to turn on a lamp,

You put the lamp into the socket,

You can turn on the light.

Now you have light.

So energy,

Electrical energy in this case,

Gave you light.

You can also take a fork and stick it into the socket and you get an electric shock.

So now the energy did neither wanted to give you light nor wanted to give you a shock.

It's just energy.

How you interact with that energy will decide whether you get light or you get darkness.

So that's the foundational understanding.

There is no guy who says you follow this list and then I'm happy with you.

You don't follow this list and I'm angry with you.

It neither makes sense nor again is it true.

Okay,

One second.

So if somebody wants a miracle and they're praying to God to create the miracle,

Then what do you say to that?

And if the miracle doesn't happen,

Then it goes back to that narrative.

Right.

Okay,

So very good question.

If we understand that there is a force that brought this world into creation and that same force is an energy that used in the proper way,

In the right way,

Draws light.

Again,

Just as the electrical energy creates light in the room when I put the lamp into the socket.

The purpose of,

And this really brings us back to where we started,

The purpose of religion originally,

The purpose of spirituality is to learn how does this energy work?

What are the characteristics of this?

How do I connect?

How do I draw that energy into my life?

Because this is the understanding.

The more of that energy that can be called God,

Can be called the creator,

Can be called the light of the creator,

Can be called the light of God or it can just be called the energy,

The big guy in the sky.

Or that's how you want to,

Because it's non-gender specific in reality,

It's just an energy.

The real purpose of religion,

The real purpose of spirituality is learning about that energy and then learning how can I draw some more of that energy into my life because the next understanding is this.

And how to mirror it.

Well,

Why?

Because the understanding is that the more of that energy that I have within me,

Within my life,

The more blessings I have,

The more joy that I have,

The more fulfillment that I have.

And therefore the singular purpose,

If you can call it,

You can call it religion,

I would call it spirituality,

Is to both learn about that energy and learn how can I both become in contact with it more.

Because the more contact I have with that energy,

The more that energy is revealed in my life,

The more goodness and blessings and miracles that I will have in my life.

So would you say that this is the reason that we have rules and tools?

Like why do we have?

Because you can look at religion,

You can even look at Kabbalah.

Why do we have holidays and certain rules and rituals?

Exactly.

So to make it very simplistic,

And this is not obviously,

You know,

But one of the rules,

Let me take a step back because I think this is very important.

The one thing we know about this energy is that it is good and it desires to manifest goodness for every single person.

But that the only way that you can partake,

Receive of that goodness,

That will then manifest in your life as blessings,

As relationships,

As money and so on and so forth.

Health.

Health,

Happiness is by being like,

And I want to take a few,

Maybe a minute to explain that because again,

This is foundational.

The Kabbalists teach in the spiritual matters,

Things are close or far away,

Not by being physically close or far away,

But by being alike.

Like similarity of form.

Similar,

It's referred to as similarity of form.

When I am behaving like that energy,

It comes close to me.

When I behave opposite from that energy,

It goes away for me.

So for example,

We spoke about rules.

If you slap somebody.

You love that analogy,

Boy.

If you slap somebody,

Then that,

And for no reason,

Of course,

That action is an action that is opposite from the energy of what you can call it God,

Call it the creator,

The light of God.

That means that now I am further away from that.

So if I know that one of the rules of connection or drawing in that light of the creator of God of energy is that I have to be kind,

And when I behave unkind,

I am actually separating myself from that.

It's a very simple understanding.

Now,

There are many other rules,

Rituals,

And so on that of course need and deserve much further understanding and explanation,

But this is the foundation.

Everything that you find in the Bible,

Everything you find in religion was really meant as a way to guide us towards connecting more to that energy and bringing it more into my life.

Now,

To the question you asked,

You said,

What does this mean to somebody who needs a miracle?

If you're saying that what others might think of- What are we praying to?

Exactly as an energy.

So it's an energy that has characteristics,

Really only one,

Kindness,

Goodness.

And the more you can behave and be similar in form to that energy,

The more of that energy you can have.

So if you need a miracle,

What does that mean?

You need a lot,

A huge injection of that energy.

If you,

For instance,

If you want to generate a huge plant,

You need a lot more electricity than we have here coming out of our sockets.

So if you need something big to happen,

You can call it a miracle.

What you actually need is a huge injection of that energy,

What we can call the light to the creator or the creator or the creative energy of this world.

The energy of which we came from and the energy that exists within all of us.

Exactly.

And so therefore- Let some diminish.

Exactly.

And therefore,

The Kabbalists would often say,

For instance,

We spoke about it,

I think a little bit,

We touched upon it last week when we spoke about the energy of sharing.

There's actually a phrase from the Kabbalists that says charity,

When you give great charity,

You can be saved from death.

You can bring a miracle,

Even if a person's in a dangerous situation,

That doesn't mean it's not a guarantee.

But the understanding is this,

If you want something great to come into your life,

You need to be acting in a great way like that energy.

So what that would mean is that if I need a miracle,

And we all at different times need miracles,

I need to do an action that is sometimes often against my nature,

Against my ego,

An action of sharing,

For example,

An action of diminishing my ego.

A great action on my part makes me more capable to receive a great infusion of energy from the creative force,

From the creative energy.

And that's how we ask for miracles.

That's how we ask for blessings and so on and so forth.

It's all within the framework of understanding that this creative force,

Often referred to as God,

Simply has a quality of goodness and sharing.

And in order to draw that more or less of that energy into my life,

I need to have a similarity of form with that energy.

So this energy,

Right?

How did it become a God?

God?

And what is it made of?

So while you're asking all the deep ones,

Each one of these questions you've asked really deserves its own podcast.

It's its own podcast.

But the more you are speaking,

The more there's another layer to unfold.

So one of my favorite words,

One of my favorite words,

And it's foundational to the spiritual understanding and certainly in Kabbalah,

This is the word that is used,

But it's really used I know in many other spiritual and religious traditions.

It's called the endless,

Which means this.

And as we've said a few times throughout this podcast,

To think that I can fathom sitting here right now,

What that energy actually is and understand in all of its facets,

It's ridiculous.

You know,

Our mind is very,

Very limited.

We can come to understand fragments of the truth,

But we know that it's not possible for me to know the totality of it.

But the view is this,

That there is an energy,

It's called endless or the endless in Hebrew,

Ein Sof.

We do not know what really even comes before that.

We just know that the force that we call the creative energy of our world,

Which often is referred to as God,

Is endless.

And that's always been in existence because,

Again,

This might delve jumping into deeper orders,

Because in spiritual matters,

There is no time or space.

But the root of everything that we can at least begin to understand is the fact that everything that we speak about,

When we talk about God,

When we talk about this energy of creation,

It begins because there's really no time,

But it is the endless light or the endless energy as you can refer to it.

I do want to say one more thing,

And I know we're sort of going deeper and deeper,

But that one of the beautiful aspects of true spiritual understanding,

And certainly the way I understand the spiritual wisdom of thousands of years referred to as Kabbalah,

Is that it is very much in line with what science has discovered certainly over the past few hundred years and certainly as it continues to discover.

And when I think about,

Again,

What others would call religion,

What I would call spirituality,

And you understand it in the context of what we said,

That there's an energy,

A creative force or an energy,

You realize that that makes a lot more sense.

If you asked somebody what electricity was,

You tried to explain 150 years ago that there's this unseen current that is flowing,

Not then,

But in our homes.

You think you're crazy,

That's probably even crazier to believe or to accept than religion.

So the point is that one of the reasons,

And the Kabbalists do speak about it,

That our world is much more capable of understanding the forces is because science is developing in such ways and really dovetailing into what previously we would call spirituality.

One of my favorite things in my studies and also as I share this with students and others is that you begin to see that almost all of the spiritual rules,

We'll call them,

Are being both discovered and explained by science.

What I mean,

So for example,

And again,

Like I said,

I think our listeners can see this,

I both enjoy talking about this and I've talked about this for very long.

I believe without a doubt,

And this is already there,

But the right to pretend science has discovered proven that doing actions of sharing and kindness physiologically cause happiness,

Goodness within the individual.

Improve health,

Yeah.

And science is already beginning to see this,

That this energy that we're talking about that would have been previously referred to as God or the guy in the sky,

Science is beginning to touch upon that.

We will see,

Certainly we're beginning to see and we will see that this foundational understanding of the creative energy of our world,

Its characteristics as well are going to be more and more clarified through science.

So that maybe even today,

But certainly in a few years from now,

When you say to somebody,

In order to have goodness in your life,

You have to be kind and sharing and growing and changing.

It won't be that foreign.

It won't be spiritual teaching.

It will be proven by science.

It will be proven by science because we see the underpinning energy of our universe and the universes that exist.

You did say something in your book,

Becoming Like God,

Which I really liked.

You said the journey to becoming.

.

.

That was the one thing you liked.

Yeah,

That was the only part that was good.

Just kidding.

The journey to becoming like God must become more than an intriguing idea.

It must become a realization that enters our cells with the force of destiny,

A realization that seamless union with God,

Where God's thoughts become our thoughts,

God's actions our actions,

God's intentions our intentions,

Is a natural process,

Not a religious conversion.

It's a transformation taking place in an invisible place in our souls,

As natural as a seed becoming an oak tree.

It has nothing to do with faith,

Morality,

Or earning heaven on the basis of good behavior.

It's a transformation born of the most ancient science of truth of all.

Kabbalah,

And Kabbalah is not a religion,

But rather technology,

Technology that predates religion.

Right,

Right.

And that really encapsulates a lot of what we've spoken about until now.

Yes,

I know.

I made it really nice and tight there by quoting you in your book.

Because I.

.

.

Yeah,

Go ahead.

I wanted to address,

Actually,

If I wrote it down,

The question that you asked some time ago,

Which was,

How do you decode the rituals?

I want to point out something which.

.

.

It is important because Kabbalah has been called a religion and I think that- Well,

Judaism is called a religion,

Christianity is called a religion,

Right?

What we're actually saying is that that's a little bit of a misnomer depending on how you understand religion.

Right.

That that was never the original intent,

That the original intent was always as a way to.

.

.

You know,

It's interesting,

People always,

At least certainly in the past,

I don't know,

50 years or so,

Or even more than that,

60 years,

People accept that the Eastern religions have been very much centered on the individual's growth and change.

Whereas Judeo-Christian tradition has often been viewed as a dogmatic rule.

Rule,

Exactly.

And what we're saying- Why do you think?

Well,

We spoke a little bit about the history,

But I think that there's always this tension within anything that's important.

And that's why,

Again,

There have been,

In every generation there are- And necessary,

By the way.

I mean- Between keeping,

And this is internal to each one of us,

Even after hearing this podcast or even if accepting this into our lives,

The battle to keep something true,

Right,

As opposed to the ego desiring to say,

Oh,

It's okay,

You're doing these things,

You're fine,

Right?

That tension between what I would call truth and falsehood or between the ego and the soul,

Between saying,

If you want to call it religion,

I am doing these things.

But for the singular purpose,

And this needs to be my test,

It might be coming a better person all the time.

But I also just want to add to that,

I think people hold onto this and are unwilling to see any other perspective because they need to feel like they're going to be safe,

Like they're okay.

This need that we have for certainty,

Not as we understand it coupleistically,

But certainty like I'm all right and I'm going to be okay,

Heaven,

Hell,

Afterlife,

Or- And our message is you're not going to be okay.

Oh,

Honey,

Don't do that.

You're going to scare everybody.

That was obviously a joke,

But what's the stage?

No,

It wasn't obvious to everybody else.

What we're saying is that unless you are growing and changing,

And that is your number one test of your quality of religion or spirituality,

Then you're doing it wrong.

You're doing Christianity wrong,

You're doing Judaism wrong,

You're doing Islam wrong,

Whatever,

Or you're doing Buddhism wrong.

But I think you can even do spirituality wrong.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I think it's important just to go over really quickly.

They characterize,

This is from Philip Kennegan.

He's an associate dean at the School of Bible and Ministry.

Anyway,

They came up with five different ways that you have distinct categories for SBNRs.

And one- It's big to be biased.

Spiritual but not religious,

Which is- Mostly with the way people- Today,

Especially young Americans under 30.

To centers are people turned off by religious affiliation because they had an adverse personal experience.

Right?

So now,

That's not about anything we've talked about so far.

There's nothing really to do with God,

Energy,

The creator.

The second is casuals.

They believe that spirituality is on an as-need basis,

Like bettering your health,

Relieving stress,

Emotional support.

It's more therapeutic.

The third is explorers.

Those are spiritual tourists taking comfort in a destination-less journey.

No intention to ultimately join anything.

The fourth are seekers.

They're open to finding a new religion and an alternative spiritual group,

So they're constantly looking.

And the last is immigrants.

So they'll try on radically new spiritual environment,

But they never feel settled.

Interesting.

Interesting.

And so,

When you think about spirituality and that framework,

That opens a whole nother can of worms because you're not here or there.

I mean,

To sit and say,

Okay,

I'm going to create my own spirituality.

It's just about me and feeling good in my body.

Well,

What about being part of something where people will push back and say,

You know,

Rethink what you just did?

Or can you do something better?

Or how are you changing and growing?

I think that needs to be an aspect of any spiritual connection or process.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I want to add one more idea to this,

Which again,

Each one of these deserves its own podcast and more.

Religious practice,

People often refer to as rituals,

You know,

Putting up the Christmas tree,

Lighting the Chanukah lights and so on and so forth.

There is a purpose,

Right?

That we just said,

Everything we said,

It means that there is a purpose behind it.

And more importantly,

That there's a power to it.

It's not coincidental that certain things have been done for thousands of years.

At certain times of the year also.

At certain times of the year and so on and so forth.

Ravashlak,

For instance,

Speaks at length about the fact that if you come from a certain tradition and you've been doing certain things,

It's actually very dangerous to let that go because there's something in there.

Now,

Not the rote ritual,

But when once it is understood in its proper context of spiritual growth and transformation.

I'll give our example.

So basically what you're going to say is that you can be both religious and spiritual.

I would go further and say that it's actually important to do some of,

If not many of these actions within the proper context of spiritual growth.

For example,

In the next few weeks,

We're going to be lighting the Chanukah candles in our home.

We'll be doing it,

Our children will be doing it.

We'll be singing certain songs and so on and so forth.

Why am I going to do it?

Why are you going to do it?

Because,

Again,

We've spent years understanding the spiritual purpose of those actions.

I am not doing it to be okay with God.

I'm not doing it because this is what my parents did.

I'm doing it because I understand the spiritual.

Or because it's expected of you.

I understand the spiritual significance of it and my expectation of myself and these actions is that I will grow from them,

That I will change from them.

If I go,

For instance,

To the eight days of Chanukah and I am the same person,

I haven't changed even in the slightest bit,

I haven't gained a deeper understanding of myself and so on and so forth,

I've done it wrong.

Now it's not so bad.

You know,

I lit candles for eight days,

Our kids got some gifts.

Nice.

But what I'm saying is almost paradoxical.

Without the spiritual understanding,

Which I strongly urge all of our listeners to gain more of and literally this takes years and years of study to understand each one,

But what I would say is this.

The rituals,

The actions,

What some call the precepts,

They're actually very powerful.

Think about it.

It's not a coincidence that for a thousand years people have been doing this or that.

There must be something there.

On the other hand,

Doing it without an understanding,

Doing it without a spiritual context that I better be growing and changing from it is worse than not doing it at all.

So you have this paradox.

Worse you would say?

Yes,

Yes,

Yes.

Because for many reasons,

But you might just say,

I'm a good person.

I'm okay with God.

Oh,

Because it might fool you into.

.

.

Yeah,

I can be selfish and not grow and not change from lighting the candles,

For instance,

Or putting up the Christmas tree,

But.

.

.

It can be an excuse to act badly because I did X,

Y,

And Z.

I went to church,

You know,

On Christmas,

So God's okay with me.

No,

No.

By the way,

He's not.

Whatever he or she,

It is the energy we spoke about.

So the paradox here is what we're saying is that there is a power to what some call religion or rituals or practice or precepts,

But only within the spiritual context.

If you understand it,

How these actions are meant to be helping me grow and change and calling it back to what we said before,

Being more in line and in tune with that energy of creation,

Of the creator that will then bring more blessings into my life,

Then you're on the path to doing it right.

If you're just doing it to be okay with God.

.

.

But then also your life starts to work for you.

I think that's why a lot of people are like,

You know,

The whole list of,

You know,

I did this God,

I did that,

Why isn't it happening?

Well,

What does the rest of your life look like besides the desperation or the desperate calls to God?

You know,

Because basically it's an expectation that's put outwardly.

You should provide for me.

You should make my life better.

You should make me happy.

And the you is,

Do they even believe in God?

Right.

Right.

And what I would say is,

And this is something that my father would often say,

You know,

Everybody knows Missouri is the show me state.

He would say,

When it comes to your spiritual practice and or religious practice,

You need to become from Missouri,

Which means you need to see if you're religious,

If you're spiritual in any way,

Shape or form,

And your life is not improving today from five months ago,

A year ago,

Five years ago,

Something's wrong.

Because a spiritual practice,

A spiritually based religious practice,

For example,

Must be showing its benefits here and now.

Yes,

There might be other,

And then we can have another podcast talks about what happens when our soul leaves this world.

But if you're doing it right,

You're seeing it right here.

I think that says everything really.

Yeah.

There's so much more to say,

And we've gone over the time we wanted.

And I also wanted to share one of the stories,

Which we won't have time for this week,

But.

Really?

Why did you just list all the things that we're not going to do now?

That's not fair.

No,

Because I know many of our listeners,

They'll really enjoy the stories that you tell afterwards.

And the questions,

I literally have a list of things that we haven't gotten to,

But I do hope,

Because this is such a fundamentally important,

There's one of our listeners.

I'm going to ask,

I don't like rules,

So I'm going to break them.

Do you feel that there is a time in your life where you were more religious or only religious and not so much spiritual?

The answer is absolutely yes.

And I think- Tell us a story.

Oh,

I don't know if I can think of a story.

I think- No,

Answer it the way you want to.

Oh,

Thank you.

I get to answer the question.

I was just trying to edit you and make it more interesting.

I wanted to hear a good religious story,

But okay.

Well,

I think this is a story that I've shared,

But for example,

Many,

Many years ago,

I was praying with the time it was a small community in our home in Queens.

And I was in the middle of my prayers and I take them,

I took them very seriously.

And there were people around me who would finish their prayers and we're just talking,

Joking around.

Were you getting a little upset in your prayers?

I was getting very,

Very upset.

And at that time,

I have a different thought about it now,

But at the time when I said to myself,

Because I knew getting angry is obviously not going to connect me to that creative force that we can call God.

I said,

Imagine you were a homeless person out in the streets and these group of people allowed you into their home to pray with them.

How much appreciation do you have right now?

Can you possibly be angry at them?

It's their house,

It's their place.

They let you in so you'd be appreciative,

No reason to be angry.

The layer that I.

.

.

That's that story.

The layer I would add to that today is that if your spiritual practice or religious practice is getting you to a place of anger,

Wow,

Something's really off.

And what I was going to say is that that doesn't stop,

That didn't stop 30 years ago,

40 years ago.

This doesn't stop today.

There is the tension.

You can call it a battle for each one of us,

Whether you're religious or whether you're spiritual.

You have to ask yourself the question because nature,

Our ego is going to take anything that we do to the wrong place,

Which is checking off boxes,

Doing it by rote,

Not growing,

Not changing.

And one of the rules that I have for myself is that in my life,

And I do obviously take my spiritual work very seriously,

My spiritual practice very seriously,

If I don't have an oh my God moment,

Which means every once in a while I don't say,

Wow,

I really thought I was okay in this area or that area or my ego and so on.

And I'm like,

Oh my God,

It was so wrong.

I thought you loved seeing,

Those are the real gifts.

Those are the gems.

Yes.

And that's why I hope amongst the many lessons that our listeners received from this podcast is that the only purpose of religion,

The only purpose of spirituality,

Of any practice that you have,

By the way,

It's like a joke sometimes.

And again,

I won't use names,

But I know many people become very much into meditation or yoga and they become worse people.

They become self-centered.

They're you know,

They got to go on a yoga retreat every week and they leave their families behind and so on and so forth.

Like ask yourself,

There's a very simple question.

I have to ask myself,

You have to ask yourself,

Every one of our listeners has to ask,

You're religious,

You're spiritual,

You're into meditation,

You're into yoga,

You're into Judaism,

Into Christianity,

Whatever it is.

Are you treating people better today than you did yesterday?

Are you behaving more like that force?

Are you more of a giving person,

Of a sharing person,

A kind of person?

And the answer is no.

Put the brakes on all of that because that was never the original intent and that is not certainly any reason why you should or can be,

Should be practicing any of it today.

So with the policy- Now we're really over time.

Yes,

With the policies,

All these we're not going to get to,

But as I said,

I really hope because this is such an important topic and certainly in our world and for each one of us personally and hopefully for our listeners,

I hope that our listeners receive some inspiration,

Wisdom from what we shared today.

And although we won't have time to get to any questions or stories today,

I do want to mention that I am overwhelmed every week.

Hundreds of thousands of people are having access to this podcast and it really,

We never imagined that in such a short period of time,

So many people would have access to this podcast.

So we really want to thank all of our listeners,

All of you who are sharing it,

Whether you're watching it on YouTube,

Whether you're watching on Facebook,

Whether you're hearing it on Apple Podcasts and so on,

But we do ask that you continue to share it,

That you continue going to Apple Podcasts or YouTube or Facebook,

Wherever you're consuming this podcast and share it,

Write a review,

Do what you can to also share this wisdom with others.

And keep sending your stories,

Your questions to monicaandmichaelatcabala.

Com.

It continues to inspire us and I will next week get to the one that I didn't get to today and more,

But know that even if we don't get to your questions,

Your stories,

They continue to inspire us and makes us very excited every week to be able to come again and share this with you.

And as you always say,

I hope you enjoyed listening to this podcast as much as we enjoyed recording it.

Thanks for joining us.

Bye bye.