30 Days Of Epic Wallowing With Tracey Lewis Stoeckel

Tracey Lewis-Stoeckel's life was upended when her husband surprised her with divorce. She and her kids were forced out of their home one week before Christmas, and Tracey was shortly faced with leaving a job that she loved to take care of them. We're talking about the habits, mantras, and music that help us rebuild.

Transcript

So welcome to the show coming back.

I'm so excited to have you here.

As usual,

I'm just going to have you jump in with your lost story.

I never thought in a million years that anything could ever affect my marriage.

We were together for 15 years.

We shared two beautiful children.

And most importantly,

He was my best friend.

He was the one person I could go to with anything.

We had been friends in high school,

We dated all through college,

And we got married when he was in the military and spent four years living on the East Coast.

We had the perfect marriage in my opinion,

And then suddenly everything changed.

He said it was me.

He said that I was a bad mother,

That I was a worse wife,

And that I had control issues and that I was lazy.

He said he never really loved me because how could he possibly?

I was such a despicable person,

And that he wanted out of our marriage.

And then he forced me out of our home a week before Christmas without so much as a penny to my name.

But what he didn't bargain for is that I was never going to leave without my children,

Or that the first weekend that they spent with him,

After we split,

That they would come home and tell me how they had spent the night at daycare,

And that they thought the daycare lady was going to be their new stepmommy.

So the cat was out of the bag.

But what changed wasn't really me after all.

Although that realization strangely made me feel better,

The worst was yet to come.

We would go on to spend two and a half years fighting for custody of those two kids,

Including a custody evaluation and five days in court,

Which would include Valentine's Day.

I just love that irony.

And I can't tell you how soul-crushing it is to sit and listen to the man you love lie about you in a room full of strangers.

How completely heart-wrenching it is to hold your babies when they cry every Sunday night because they've come home from being told that mommy is crazy all weekend,

And that they just wish that mom and dad still loved each other.

I would spend those two and a half years fielding harassing text messages in the middle of the night from both him and his girlfriend,

And I would wonder how in the world I could have spent 18 years of my life with a man and never know him at all.

And I'd wonder if I could ever trust again,

Or ever let anyone else close to me or my kids.

And that's kind of my story.

That is absolutely incredible.

And it sounds like you've been weaving the story for a while.

How does it feel now to have this kind of set beginning,

Middle,

And maybe end to it?

Does it make the picture harder or easier for you,

Or is what it is?

So much easier.

Yeah,

I mean,

All of that took place.

That was eight and a half years ago since he put us out of the house and we set out on our own.

And those first couple of years were so difficult.

And I wish I could say that it's better.

It's still not better.

Eight and a half years later,

He and I don't speak.

We still,

Of course,

Share these two kids who are now teenagers.

But for me,

At least,

There is an end to the story.

There is an end to that whole grieving process and wondering if there's something wrong with me,

And what I could have done differently or better to keep him in my life and keep him happy.

That's all gone.

It's wonderful to have those stages.

And it's funny,

The more I talk about it,

The easier it gets,

The better it's gotten over the years.

Absolutely.

And tell me what sparked the change in your husband,

If anything?

You know,

I wish I knew.

At the time,

I was convinced that he was using drugs.

And I know now that that probably wasn't the case,

But it was such an incredible change.

We had been together for 18 years and he had never raised his voice to me in 18 years.

Never yelled at me,

Never even really scolded me or argued with me in 18 years,

Which I know now is not normal.

But all of a sudden,

Any time that I would even speak to him,

He'd be screaming at me.

And it took a while to figure out that he hadn't just gone crazy and that it wasn't actually something that I had done,

Like he made it sound.

There was an influence from the outside that I hadn't seen coming in.

And the hardest thing about that was she was a very good friend of mine.

She was our children's childcare provider.

She took care of them during the day.

So although they would deny it over and over and over again that there was actually something going on between them,

In the end,

That turned out that was the catalyst that that started all of the craziness.

When you found out that their relationship was the catalyst for your marriage ending,

I think I asked this on another interview as well,

But where was your heart?

Where were you in all of that?

You know,

For me,

It was easier.

It took so much of the pressure and the blame off of me because all the way up until that moment,

It was me.

I was a bad mother.

I was a terrible wife.

He blamed me for the fact that he was overweight and that we didn't have any money.

Everything that was wrong in his life was my fault.

And then all of a sudden,

It was,

Oh wait,

No,

Maybe it's not me after all.

Maybe he just likes her.

And I've talked to other women who have been in the same situation and they're like,

Yeah,

That doesn't make me feel any better.

But for me,

It did.

It's a somewhat normal thing for marriages to fail.

I wasn't surprised that my marriage failed.

I was surprised that he turned on me,

That despite everything that we had together and the fact that he was my best friend,

That he would suddenly start hating me.

And to have a reason for that and some sort of justification for that,

Even if it was just in my mind,

Made me feel so much better.

Sounds like you were comforted by answers.

Absolutely.

Yep.

And that's exactly it.

That's an interesting statement that you weren't surprised that your marriage failed,

But you were surprised that your husband would ever turn on you.

I've never heard that before because most people,

When they get married,

They're like,

It's going to last forever and what have you.

And then the divorce rate is steadily climbing in this country for multiple reasons.

Not because people don't get along or the people are having more sex or what have you.

I think there's a lot of factors as to why it's climbing,

But 50% or more of marriages now don't go to forever.

And that's interesting that you kind of acknowledge that reality in your life.

And yet the thing that surprised you was the fact that he turned on you so drastically and so quickly.

And I'm curious to know in this halfway period and between him changing and you actually finding your answers,

Did you believe any of the stories that he was telling you about yourself?

I'm sure I did.

I'm sure there was a part of me that was trying to maybe even sympathize with him and trying to find some common ground to adopt some of what those attitudes were in order to bring us closer together.

But the one thing that I had going for me was that I had people to talk to who immediately,

It was the first moment when I said,

Yeah,

He said he wants a divorce.

They're like,

He's cheating.

And I was like,

No,

He's not cheating.

Oh yeah,

He's cheating.

So having those people around me to bolster me and to support me helped me to kind of think outside of that box that he was trying to put me in.

But yeah,

I'm sure.

I mean,

I subscribe to a lot of that and I think I did for a long time.

I don't think it was until we were actually sitting in a courtroom and I was listening to some of the things come out of his mouth and hearing how crazy some of his allegations were that I realized that it was just all crazy.

That there wasn't really any truth to any of it.

It was just the ramblings of a desperate person and not really anything that I had done wrong.

I'm not saying that I have never done anything wrong in my marriage because certainly we're all human,

But he had some crazy,

Crazy accusations and none of it was true.

And I love that you mentioned having a support system in all of this.

So where,

Logistically,

What happened after he kicked you guys out of the house?

Like,

Where did you go?

What did you do?

Who did you stay with?

Who or what kind of held you up during that time?

We live in Minnesota.

My family's in Wisconsin.

And the first thing that I suggested when he said it was going to be over was,

Okay,

I'm going to take the kids and we're going to Wisconsin.

And of course that was not going to be an option for him at all.

And we were going to be,

You know,

Divorcing in Minnesota.

So that wasn't going to work out at all.

So I immediately started looking for a place to live.

But it was,

You know,

Christmas time.

And I,

As soon as I knew my marriage was ending,

I quit the job that I had because it was really long hours and a lot of hours a week.

And an attorney had warned me that I wouldn't be able to keep my children if that was the job that I had.

And my parents,

Who are amazing human beings if not for them,

I really believe that I would have been living in a box back then.

And they stepped forward and said that they would do whatever it takes that we were going to fight,

That I was not going to lose my kids.

And they put up the security deposit for this really terrible little rental house that we lived in for the first six months.

My kids called it the Poopy Brown House because it was brown.

How old?

I'm sorry to interrupt you,

But how old were they at the time?

They were,

What were they,

Five and seven then.

The Poopy Brown House.

Yeah,

It was this a terrible,

Terrible brown color and it was just not very nice.

So it was poopy.

And yep,

We lived in the Poopy Brown House for six months after that.

I moved as far as I could get away from him while still being in the same school district.

That was my like little bit of justice.

Like,

I'll get as far away from you as I can,

Which,

You know,

Brought us like 15 miles away.

It wasn't very far.

Well,

In the grand scheme of things,

Distance can mean all the space in the world that goes from being in the same house to being in the same town.

But still,

It's really important.

I think what I'm hearing from you too is that it was really important,

Not just because he kicked you out,

But for your well being to carve out a space that was exclusively yours and exclusively your kids without his energy kind of interfering in there.

Absolutely.

Yeah,

He did suggest that we could all live in the same house as friends.

And that wasn't going to happen.

So the Poopy Brown House became a reality.

I want to use the phrase mothering instincts.

What kind of protective natures or proactive measures did you take on behalf of your kids during all this?

I think I probably went into full mama bear mode.

You know,

The biggest thing was that I've always,

Even when they were little like that,

I've always been completely honest with my kids.

That,

You know,

I don't believe in,

You know,

You don't tell them that the shots won't hurt.

You tell them that they will hurt,

But only for a minute.

You know,

You give them as much of the real story as is age appropriate for them.

And Gary at that time,

Which is not his real name by the way,

Did not support me telling the children anything.

He didn't want me talking to my family or his family or any of our friends about any of that.

But I sat down with them as soon as I knew that it was,

You know,

A definite thing that we were definitely going to be moving and explain to them.

And really did my due diligence.

And,

You know,

I tell my friends too that we're going through this.

You tell your children one million times that this is not their fault.

That,

You know,

Sometimes mommies and daddies just stop loving each other and they decide not to live together.

And that doesn't mean that they don't love you.

And really,

Really worked so hard to ingrain that in them.

And I think even to this day,

You know,

It's been eight and a half years,

They still know in their hearts that we both love them.

And they still at times,

You know,

My daughter still says she wants us together,

Which,

You know,

Obviously now is never ever going to happen.

But that was my biggest priorities to try to keep them whole.

Like this was going to be the worst thing that ever happened to them,

You know,

At least to date.

And their mental health and their,

You know,

Emotional well-being was my first priority.

And even to the point where I really,

Those first six months,

Put on a show for them.

Made sure that everything was perfect during their waking hours.

And then,

You know,

I could put them to bed and go,

You know,

Cry in the shower if I needed to.

But I didn't do it in front of them.

And I made sure that their lives were as normal as I could.

There's a grief myth that I talk about on,

I believe it's episode five of the podcast.

Well,

There's a couple of them.

One is be strong for others.

And the other one is don't cry or don't feel bad.

And it sounds like in a way,

You were using some of those to cope.

But then conversely,

You were not keeping the situation a secret from your kids.

So I think,

I feel like there had to be some kind of balance there.

But was there ever a day or a week or a time period when all of you just got together and just cried about the fact that this was awful and it was happening to all of you?

I think we did that on a regular basis,

Really.

They had a really hard time with leaving me every other weekend to go and spend time with him.

And he really immediately moved in with her,

Despite the fact that she was also married at the time.

So they were just immersed in this relationship right from the very,

Very beginning,

Literally from a week after the time we moved out.

And they did not speak well of me.

And to this day,

They don't say nice things about me to my children.

And to the contrary,

They say some pretty horrendous things about me and my kids.

And in those early days,

They would come home on Sundays after a weekend away and we would sit on the couch in this big lump of mom and two kids.

And all of us just cry for an hour or two or three until we had it out of our systems.

And then we'd make macaroni and cheese and try to get on with the evening.

But that was really our ritual.

We called it detox time.

Every two weeks,

They'd come home.

They'd barely get in the door and start crying about something they heard or something they were told.

And we'd just sit and cry it out.

And my daughter actually coined the phrase,

Calling me an empathetic badass,

Because I can't not cry if she cries.

So they would walk in the door and start to cry.

And of course,

Naturally,

I'd be crying.

And they'd be saying,

Why are you crying?

And I go,

I don't know,

Why are you crying?

And we'd all just think a little puddle of Kleenex and tears.

Oh,

That's that's a really beautiful picture,

Actually.

And I feel like we should all be sharing more,

More emotions and more struggles with our kids.

Because if they never see us cry,

They they think that it's not okay that they're crying or there's something wrong with them.

They can't suck it up and,

And move on.

So I think that's so beautiful.

And you guys even came up with a name for it.

I want to know what this time period kind of in between was like with things like living in the Poopy Brown house and going to court and kind of re- I'm having this image of like fumbling in the dark.

What was that like for you energetically and emotionally and mentally?

Like what was the story that you were telling yourself about your life?

Well,

The biggest story that I told myself was that if I could be so wrong about him,

You know,

If we'd known each other for 20 plus years,

We'd been dating for 18 years,

Married for 15.

If I could be so wrong,

Then obviously what I thought I had never existed.

And there's not really any point being upset about losing something that you never had in the first place.

And that was kind of my,

My mantra that,

You know,

Like I clearly had fabricated a lot of what I thought there was in my head.

And there was,

You know,

Like no use crying over spilled milk,

My mom would say,

But that's really the feeling that I had.

So I basically set forth from the minute we moved out December 30th.

By January 2nd,

I was starting to get my head back on straight a little bit.

And I decided that he had not wanted me to go back to school for years.

We'd kind of thought about it.

I had been accepted to law school at one point and was told I couldn't go.

And I just decided that I was going back to school.

And that was what I totally dumped myself into.

So January 2nd,

I called the school.

I was sitting in class January 6th.

And,

You know,

A year later was starting a new career in the medical field,

Something I had not even thought of before that time.

But having that to fill all the time when the kids,

You know,

Were with their dad or were at school so that I wasn't constantly thinking was,

You know,

One of the saving graces for me.

Did you grieve for the life that you had,

For the truth that you did have for the person that you were?

Yeah,

I definitely grieved.

And,

You know,

I think it's funny that people would always,

Or people will always tell you,

You know,

They'll put limits on,

You know,

How long it should take you to get over something.

And,

You know,

Some of my friends were saying,

You know,

Oh,

Come on,

Get back on the horse.

You need to go on a date and whatever.

And others were like,

No,

Take your time,

You know,

Give yourself six months.

And I really was bothered by the fact that other people had opinions about how long it should take me,

You know,

This is my thing.

But I basically gave myself 30 days.

And I said,

Okay,

You can have 30 days to wallow and wallow your little heart out.

And I did.

I did some epic wallowing.

It was quite amazing.

I love that phrase.

I could stay,

I would stay in my pajamas all day,

Eat cereal in my bed,

Watch,

You know,

Soap operas all day.

And then a half an hour before the kids were going to get home and get off the bus,

I would take a shower and put on makeup and have my hair done and be ready at the door when they got there so that they didn't know that I was wallowing.

And weekends when they were gone,

I,

You know,

Would stay in my pajamas all weekend,

Maybe not shower,

You know,

Eat pizza rolls or,

You know,

Like whatever it was I wanted to do.

And I just let myself enjoy,

For lack of a better word,

Every moment of that.

Just cry when I want to and read a sad book,

Whatever,

And just wallow in it.

On the 30th day,

I was done wallowing.

So on the 30th day,

I went on a date.

Wow.

Yeah.

And it was terrible.

That's incredible.

It was the worst idea I've ever had.

But it was.

.

.

Why is that?

It's just the one thing.

Why was it terrible?

Because I was totally mentally prepared for that.

But it was the thing that I feared the most.

I was 36 years old and I didn't want to be single and I didn't want to date and certainly didn't want to try online dating,

Which was how I met this person that I went out with.

And he was very sweet.

We had a really good time.

And I got that behind me.

And once I had that,

You know,

Okay,

My 30 days is over.

There's no more wallowing.

First date's behind me.

Now it's time to go forward.

And that was my condition.

Who taught you how to do that in terms of setting time to really acknowledge your feelings and then setting timeframes to have these goals for yourself?

Because this is not the first time I'm hearing this as a trend in interviews,

But this is the.

.

.

That's a new idea for me.

You know,

I don't know.

My family is not good about feeling things or talk about their feelings.

So I really don't know.

The only thing that I can say is that I'm a planner.

And for me,

In order to feel like I have some control over my life,

There has to be a plan.

So I can't look at the next 40 years of my life as this vast open time when I'm going to feel bad about this thing that happened to me.

I've got to put a deadline on it.

You know,

Okay,

So the deadline for feeling bad is 30 days from now after that you're feeling better.

And,

You know,

I guess I don't remember now if I did feel lots better or not,

But that was the time I allowed myself.

I just think that's such a cool tip.

And I just love that that's the gift that you chose to give yourself in this time period.

I'm curious if there was an event or a book or a person or like an idea that really called you to step back into your life again to take those classes or to get a new space for you and your kids.

Like how,

What was your coming back process like?

For me,

It was a song.

I had just had this massive confrontation with my husband because he had actually confessed that to the affair.

And I had decided to call her husband and let him know that I had had this confession.

Everything imploded.

Her husband called her,

She called him,

Then he was super mad at me because she was really mad at him.

And it was my lowest low point.

Like I really had thought that her husband would be like an ally to me.

Maybe we'd even like break them up and get them back.

Like that was probably my mindset at that point.

And it was the first time that I ever thought that maybe he was right about me and maybe everybody would be better off if I went away or whatever that was.

And I had gone to Target to buy some things for the Poopy Brown House to try to make it a little homier.

And Jewel had just put out a new CD.

And I couldn't afford it.

I didn't have two nickels to rub together.

But for whatever reason,

I grabbed that CD and threw it in the cart.

And even at checkout,

I almost put it back.

And you know,

Like I can't afford to spend,

You know,

Nine dollars on a,

In music for myself.

But I bought it.

And I got in the car and tore the CD open and I put it in and I was driving home to the Poopy Brown House just still sobbing because of the confrontation that I had on the phone.

And this song comes on.

And it's perfectly clear,

Which is the title of the album.

But she says,

Five years worth of kisses are packed in your bags.

This tiny moment fits all the big things we ever had.

And I can't quite pinpoint when it left or what for.

But love always steps slightly away from the door.

And she goes on to say,

Please don't open your mouth,

My dear.

I can read all the signs.

I can take this from here.

There's no need to explain.

It's perfectly clear.

So try not to think too much.

It only just makes me mad.

I spent half my life loving you.

Think of all the love that I could have had.

And it was in that moment that I realized that I was not alone in this nightmare.

There are songs about this.

And that means thousands of women have gone through this and I'm not alone.

And I didn't know then that I would eventually be moved to share this story and try to make sure that other women don't feel alone in what they're going through.

But that was really the thing that started everything.

And started me talking about it and started me reaching out to other women that I knew were going through similar things and saying,

Hey,

If you just need someone to hold your hand,

I'm here because I've been there and I know how this feels.

And I still listen to it.

And it still connects with me at the same level that it did,

You know,

Eight and a half years ago.

You're not the only person I know who has had Jewel as a very significant influence in their story.

I just love it so much.

And I got chills when you're reading the lyrics.

Because I personally have not heard that specific Jewel song before.

And that's just incredible.

And it does music can take us to this whole other level of I am not alone.

It's exactly like you said,

Talk to me about how your life looks different today versus where you were eight and a half years ago.

The day you heard the news.

Well,

Everything's different.

And it's funny because probably three,

Four months after we separated,

He had come to pick up the kids.

And I was getting ready for a date and was going on an actual date with an actual person that I actually liked that time.

And he gave me the look,

You know,

Like the up-down,

Like gave me,

Looked me over.

And didn't say anything but gave me this look.

And I made some comment to him.

And back then we still actually did talk sometimes.

We don't at all now.

And I said something about when are you ever going to apologize to me?

And he says,

Apologize to you?

You should be thanking me.

And there was a minute where I felt like he had slapped me.

But then I realized I should be thanking him.

And he goes,

I've never seen you so happy.

And there's just this total realization that I,

You know,

Like they say you live up to or down to the level of the person that you're with.

And he was a very unhappy person.

And I thought that we were happy.

But I was happy to his level of happy.

And now I get to be happy to my own level,

If that makes any sense.

And it's a much higher level than what he lives at.

So,

Yeah,

I mean,

I went and started a new career in healthcare where I get to help people.

You know,

I've had some really meaningful relationships that didn't work out but that I learned things from that I walked away from feeling like I was better for the experience.

My kids are now 17 and 14 and they're awesome human beings.

And in February,

We actually bought the house that he put us out of eight and a half years ago.

Wow,

What's that like for you?

It's amazing.

And,

You know,

People,

When I tell people the story,

I get,

You know,

Completely different reactions.

But we just were – we had purchased a house a few years ago when it just didn't feel right to us.

And all three of us just kind of felt that it just wasn't really what we wanted.

And we started looking for something else.

And this house was on the market.

And I,

You know,

I didn't know if I could afford it.

I didn't know if we wanted it.

But I decided to bring the kids here and just take a walk through,

And we did.

And it's just amazing just to be – you know,

We've come full circle.

We've lived through the worst of all of,

You know,

All of that experience.

And to be right back here kind of where we started but only with the good this time is – it's just amazing.

I pinch myself almost every day.

And,

You know,

I'm like,

I can't believe I live here,

That this is mine.

And it's never – no one's ever going to be able to take it away from us this time.

It's ours.

And I think that was one of the biggest injustices for all three of us is that not only did we lose this family that we thought,

You know,

Was forever for all of us,

But we had our home ripped away from us too.

And,

You know,

If we'd had one thing to hold on to,

That might have made it easier.

But instead we had,

You know,

A poopy brown house with spiders in the ceiling and a crazy landlord.

And now we're back here,

And it's like none of that ever happened.

It just – it's awesome.

I love it.

Wow.

The same but different.

And it's very different.

The people that lived here in the meantime,

They painted everything.

The floors are different.

But it still has the same feeling.

It still feels like home,

And it feels safe,

And it's,

You know,

It's perfect.

That's awesome for you guys.

And that makes me so happy.

And I've heard the dog in the background,

And I just love how homey even that feels coming from you now.

I want to know,

There are a lot of people who would not classify divorce as a loss because no one is actually dying,

Quote unquote.

Tell me what you would say to argue against that.

We were court ordered to attend a Parents Forever class as part of our divorce process.

And in one of the first classes,

They asked us to describe our,

You know,

Soon-to-be ex-spouse.

And,

You know,

People would say,

You know,

Oh,

He's a terrible person.

He's a narcissist.

You know,

She's crazy,

Whatever.

And when they got to me,

And I didn't even know I was thinking the words,

And I said,

My husband died.

And everybody gasped and looks at me,

And I'm like,

No,

He's actually still alive.

But the person that I thought he was died.

And I just,

You know,

And I felt like that.

You know,

I've read studies where they talk about how people would rather their spouse die than go through a divorce.

That it's not,

You know,

They say that it's not as,

You know,

Long-term,

Not as difficult a grieving process,

Which I'm not sure that I believe.

But that was exactly how I felt.

My life died.

Everything that I thought I had,

And,

You know,

My home and my future,

And I lost a whole group of family members.

His family,

You know,

Had to rally behind him because there was going to be a world war.

And I still am in touch with a couple of them,

But he had three younger brothers that were my little brothers.

They were seven,

His youngest,

Two youngest brothers were seven and eight when we started dating.

So they didn't remember a time that I wasn't in their life,

And now they're suddenly not in my life.

And,

I mean,

The friends that feel like they have to choose between you,

So they decide not to,

And they just disappear.

It's very loss-ridden for a term.

You know,

There's,

I lost everything in that time other than my two kids,

And,

You know,

I had my family.

That was all I had.

I had to give up a job that I enjoyed,

And a home that I loved,

And neighbors that I adored,

And eventually,

Now I'm friends again with some of those same people that we were friends with.

But there was a long time where not only were they afraid to get caught in the middle,

But the fact that we were really happy and suddenly not together scared the crap out of them.

They felt like if,

You know,

If my marriage could fail,

Then they were in trouble too.

And so they,

You know,

It's out of sight,

Out of mind.

So yeah,

I mean,

It's definitely a loss.

You know,

And I would say now that,

You know,

I've gained more than I've lost,

But for four years,

Five years,

That was not the case.

What would you tell yourself in the midst of those four or five years?

How would you go about holding your own hand if you could write a letter back to that person?

Mmm,

God,

That's a great question.

I think I would just tell her that she's going to be okay.

You know,

I have a friend that a year ago,

Her husband called her up on the phone since she was a terrible person.

He didn't want to be with her anymore.

They're getting divorced.

And his reason for telling her that he was through with her was that she was a breast cancer survivor and that she was different after having breast cancer.

Wow.

And which just,

You know,

I feel the rage every time I even think about it.

And the first thing I said to her was,

You know,

You're going to be okay and you'll be happier eventually.

Like,

Just trust me that you're going to come through this and you're going to be,

You know,

You're going to be happier in the end.

And she now,

Her divorce is final and she's just starting to see,

You know,

Get a little taste and saying,

Okay,

Yep,

I'm starting to see what you said.

I'm starting to realize that it's going to be okay.

But yeah,

I mean,

If somebody would have told me,

You know,

Eight years ago that I was going to survive,

I would have been grateful because I didn't even know that I was going to be able to keep breathing in and out every day.

I know you've got a podcast of your own where you talk about being divorced and it's got a couple seasons coming.

So I'd love to be enlightened about the work that you're doing now and how it reflects where you are in your life right now.

So we just launched in May and season one of the podcast,

Uh,

Finding Your Best Self is about my story and my divorce and about cheating and about,

Um,

You know,

How to be supportive to your kids during that time and all of the things.

And then what I'm hoping for season two is that I will get some good stories from others and some good questions and things that we can bring experts in to address because I am no expert.

I say it in my disclaimer,

I'm not a doctor nor do I play one on TV.

But to really just dig into the kinds of things that people are afraid to talk about.

That there's,

You know,

Just like you,

Grief is something that needs to be talked through and everybody has a thing,

Whether it's being sexually assaulted or,

Um,

You know,

Losing a big important corporate job or whatever that might be.

It's something that we need to learn to cope with.

And I feel like through talking about it and through hearing others talk about their things,

And that's kind of my goal for the ongoing seasons of the podcast.

Well,

Thank you so much for coming on coming back today.

And I'm so excited to have connected with another podcaster out there who is bringing light to the subject of grief and to the subject of loss and,

And just walking other people through it in a similar way.

So thank you for being here,

Tracy.

Thank you for having me.

I really enjoyed it.