Into The Mystery Podcast Ep. 5: The Trap Of Spiritual Materialism

As we steadily dismantle the ego in the course of our practice, it will often seek to rebuild itself, cloaked in new disguises. Rishika and Adi Vajra discuss the pitfalls of indulging the ego’s spiritual displays, and why shadow work is among the essential tools for navigating this nearly universal developmental phase on the path to true freedom.

Transcript

You're listening to Into the Mystery.

In this episode Rishika and I will be discussing spiritual materialism,

Which is a concept that when understood properly can help free us from the many forms of self-deception that we encounter on the spiritual path.

Have a listen.

Enjoy.

So today we're going to talk a little bit about spiritual materialism.

And Adi,

I actually have a dark confession to make about a shameful time in my past.

And I hope you won't judge me,

But back in,

I think it was about 2005,

I actually participated in a yoga competition in the middle of a shopping mall in Reno,

Nevada.

There were about 15 or 20 of us and we got up on the stage and on a Saturday afternoon with crowds of people all around us,

We did our little sequences.

And I actually came in third,

Which I'm still kind of proud of.

But I look back at that now and have to laugh at how sort of out there that was.

And I remember that being sort of a semi-controversial thing among the people who were competing and we had to really justify doing that to ourselves because it's not really in the spirit of traditional yoga,

I think,

To compete in that way.

And so like I said,

I hope you're not judging me now,

But I'd love to hear what you have to say about that.

I absolve you of your sins.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Well,

You know,

Every one of us through these journeys we take through life and then when we get involved with spirituality,

We try out different forms.

I went through a period very early in my journey after having an essential awakening where I felt very connected to the mystical aspect of Christ and Jesus.

And so for a little while I played that out.

I actually dressed in a tunic and grew a long beard and had long hair.

And I tried playing the whole thing,

But it was really rotten because as much as that outward appearance was an imitation of something that had an inner purity.

It was also a gross distortion.

It was a gross misunderstanding.

And we all go through those gross misunderstandings on our way to true understanding.

Yeah.

Well,

I think there's a lot of cultural confusion over what constitutes a spiritual path or what the requirements are or what outward manifestations are appropriate.

And for people who haven't maybe spent a lot of time in the yoga community discussing these things they can be really controversial.

And people have some incredibly strong opinions about what's acceptable.

Is it okay to wear your mala beads around town or is that an ostentatious display of your spirituality?

So that's sort of one aspect of spiritual materialism or one of the considerations we can begin to think about is that consumeristic and almost the idea of making it a fashion statement or adopting that is your look,

Which some people do.

But you made the point to me earlier that you think that there are a lot of internal aspects to this question as well.

Yeah.

Well,

The term spiritual materialism was coined by Chogyam Trungpa back in the early 70s.

In fact,

I have a quote by him and maybe I'll just read it right now because it says a lot about how we can approach this subject.

He said,

".

.

.

Walking the spiritual path properly is a very subtle process.

It is not something to jump into naively.

There are numerous sidetracks which lead to a distorted ego-centered version of spirituality.

We can deceive ourselves into thinking we are developing spiritually when instead we are strengthening our egocentricity through spiritual teachings and techniques.

This fundamental distortion may be referred to as spiritual materialism.

" These words that he's saying point to something that is very prevalent in the West.

He came from the East.

He came from Tibet originally and he could see the display that people made of spirituality.

In these ancient cultures such as the Tibetan or the yogic or any of the ancient lineages that are out there,

There's a real reverence for the heart and core of the teachings.

In those traditions,

Making a display of one's spirituality is deeply discouraged.

In the West,

Because we live such deceitful lives,

It's inevitable that that creeps up in our spirituality as well.

Yeah.

Can you expand on that about living deceitful lives?

I think I know what you mean by that in terms of in the West we're so image oriented and we're always trying to create these personas.

Is that what you're talking about?

Largely,

Yes.

Not only do we attempt to create personas and images,

But we also do our best to make sure we look good.

It's understandable that we do that,

But there's a level of deceit where the hidden things that exist in us go disguised by a positive,

Glowy,

Shiny veneer.

That's very prevalent in our current Western spiritual marketplace.

It's no good.

It's no good.

Yeah.

As someone who grew up being trained in Roman Catholicism,

That was definitely a feature of that particular religion.

As I was taught,

There was—I don't know that anybody ever said this out loud,

Of course—but there was always this sort of emphasis on presenting a very unimpeachable front,

Whether it was when you showed up to worship at the church or just in your everyday life.

You never went out of the house looking anything less than your best.

If someone asked you how you were,

The story that you might put forth always had a positive spin to it.

In that sense,

There was always—I mean,

It was deceitful.

Looking back on it now,

I can say that,

Yeah,

That's definitely deceitful because we were so loathe to be human and to just express ourselves honestly.

It's a lot of work.

It's a lot of work keeping up that appearance of being superhuman in a way.

Absolutely.

You know,

Years ago I began—I worked for a certain yoga training company.

After being involved just a little while,

I could see how rich and deep—or how deep the materialism went.

I started using a term—my own term for it was customer service yoga.

I remember speaking with a yogi in India that we were leading a group with.

He had said that his most discouraging experiences working with people came with Americans because they were so entitled and they expected so much to be pleased and pampered and catered to.

I think that speaks of the materialism.

It speaks of this culture of narcissistic entitlement that gets wrapped up in these ancient traditions and often spoils them.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Yeah,

I'm not surprised that that's a particularly American quality from the viewpoint of other people because we—at least since I was a child,

I grew up thinking that we were the best at everything,

The best nation on earth.

Other people were lucky to be blessed with our presence.

I grew up believing that we were the shiniest,

Highest,

Most venerable nation on the planet.

Just think of the arrogance that's implicit in that sort of an attitude and our advertising companies reinforce it all the time.

Naturally,

If you're an American who's been saturated in that mindset your whole life and you do go seeking spirituality,

It's almost like you're looking for a trophy for your effort or something like that,

Which is totally in contrast to the way spirituality ought to be pursued if you want to do an effective job at it.

Well,

It's dangerous because what it does often is it takes the precious ingredients of the teaching and it dumbs them down to a level that perhaps we can understand,

But the essence is lost.

That's one of the problems we face in—I think it's especially prevalent in the US where the idea is that I can interpret the teachings however I want.

It's up to me.

Of course,

There's an element of truth in that,

But at the same time what happens is that when we refuse to grow to the level of the teachings,

We end up dumbing the teachings down to our current level of understanding.

That's a very materialistic approach to spirituality.

Yeah.

But we keep coming up against the idea too that if you're going to draw people to the spiritual path,

There has to be a certain allowance or a certain forgiveness for those kinds of mistakes because everybody comes from a different place.

Your introduction to spiritual seeking was vastly different from mine because you just kind of went straight to awakening.

You got the big experience up front,

Whereas for me it took a decade or two of yoga practice before it started to take hold.

So I was steeped in that consumeristic,

Self-conscious,

Narcissistic world for quite a while before the practices themselves,

I guess,

Were able to finally influence me and overcome that.

Sure.

Well,

It's all forgivable.

How much we do in our own ignorance and misunderstanding.

Of course,

It's all part of a journey and we all come to see our silliness and our mistakes at some point or other.

I think where the real danger occurs is when a person is involved enough within these authentic teachings to begin to manipulate and use them in ways that are clearly distorted.

That's a very different type of situation than a person who simply doesn't understand,

Simply doesn't get it yet.

Yeah.

There are a lot of – oh,

I hesitate to use the word immature,

But yeah,

I guess immature teachers,

Maybe that's not inaccurate.

People have had some glimpses into the truth but have not quite gotten over the egoic work that needs to be done on the way to a full realization and then try to package that too soon and sell it to people.

Not only some,

Almost all.

Yeah,

It is kind of a standard step,

Isn't it?

Yes.

Well,

It's so well accepted in our US and I know it exists more deeply.

I've been in other traditions.

I've been in Buddhism.

I've been in Sufism.

I've been with mystics.

I've been with shamans and it's very different in those circles than it is with yoga.

I don't know exactly what it is with yoga.

Perhaps it's that it got involved or it got all mixed up with the physical fitness genre,

But it's definitely there and I see that in a lot of yoga teachers is there is – it is that and we don't mean this judgmentally,

But it is an immaturity.

It is an immaturity.

It's a refusal to embody the path as it's designed to be.

It's a way of appropriating the path for one's own purposes.

Sure.

And I don't think Western culture a lot of the times even realizes that that's what is happening.

In India,

At least from what I understand,

If you grow up in that culture,

Then yoga is such an integral part of it that that seems to be a cultural understanding that's already kind of baked in and the fact that it had to be imported to America and kind of delivered to American sensibilities in a particular way,

Just in the last century really since Yogananda came over,

Means that we're still dealing with an adolescent yoga population so to speak in the US.

Definitely.

But the funny thing about that is that the foundation was laid by some very wise,

Very genuine yogis like Yogananda,

Like Vivekananda,

These beings who brought genuine spirituality,

But somewhere along the way there have been such obvious distortions made on what was delivered.

Mm-hmm.

So what do you suppose the solution to something like that is?

I mean,

Can we even talk about solutions to this problem of materialism?

Is it just a matter of consciousness raising on every level?

Well,

This is why in the ancient traditions you always had the guru-student relationship because the student didn't know enough and that's the current condition of our contemporary Western American yoga culture is we have a lot of students who don't have the guidance of gurus.

I'm not even advocating for the guru-student relationship,

But when we filter spirituality through our own reference points and filters,

What we get is basically the same thing that already exists within our egoic framework.

One big thing I think that would be very useful is if we could start to incorporate some of the important aspects of integrating our shadow parts,

Just looking around at the contemporary culture,

It's not hard to find shining,

Smiling faces and on one hand that's very beautiful,

But on the other hand it disguises elements of shadow and deceit.

And I think that we would do well as practitioners to take note of that in ourselves,

Our refusal to look into the shadow.

Yeah.

I hate to like stereotype or make a blanket assessment,

But it is relentlessly cheerful.

It is relentlessly promoted as this posture is great for this particular physical condition you might be suffering from,

This is going to calm you down and then you'll be happy and self-actualized and life will be this glorious,

Satisfying thing.

I notice especially on social media there are all these motivational messages and there will be things about getting all the toxic people out of your life through your spiritual awareness or your ability to discern this,

But they're very condescending and sneering towards these horrible people that you're ridding yourself of now because your vibration has gone up.

So there's this really kind of reverse toxicity thing going on.

Well,

That's exactly what's dangerous is because then you have a situation where these teachings can be used to further reinforce and reify your egoic reference points and rather than understanding them and liberating yourself from them,

They become even more deeply entrenched.

And let's be clear too that this is not just confined to the yoga world.

I mean this is something that happens in all kinds of spiritual traditions and I'm thinking specifically of a particularly American form of worship which is prosperity gospel.

Are you familiar with that?

I'm not.

Okay,

So prosperity gospel is something that is associated with the great big shiny megachurches and the idea behind it is that if you are wealthy and thriving in society according to all of these materialistic standards that we've set up for ourselves,

It's because God has blessed you and God has smiled on you and you are doing it right and so that you shouldn't feel guilty about amassing wealth and things that I think the spiritual masters of the East would find just abhorrent.

Well money is a very different,

Money is a very interesting subject within spirituality because you sort of have two camps,

The camp that is the,

What are they,

The abundance camp and you have the renunciate camp and even both of those approaches can become materialistic in their own way.

There's a beautiful story about a Sadhu who in the desire to release his attachment to worldly things,

He leaves his business,

He gives up all his money,

He leaves his family and he goes to live down at the river and he makes his spot under a little tree and finds himself a cozy little place to hold up and one day he's down at the river bathing and as he returns to his cozy spot under the banyan tree,

There's another yogi parked there and he's outraged.

He's upset and he's flailing and it's clear that these things that we renounce or give up can simply transform themselves into other forms of holding on,

Other forms of greed and such.

I don't think money is our sole enemy in this venture.

I think what we're really getting at is the tendency to use spirituality for the enhancement of one's drives for security,

Pleasure and power.

Yeah,

You're just shifting your attachments from one expression to a slightly different one that appears to have some kind of moral superiority to it.

And that's the materialism,

Is that apparent moral superiority that is not nearly as real as it can sometimes display itself and it hides something very sinister underneath it.

So doing our shadow work is the best way to either avoid getting trapped on that off-ramp too long or … because I think of all these things that draws away from the path or delay us on the path is kind of like that,

Like the idea of developing yogic powers or what we call cities.

That's something that you can go after,

Something you can pursue through a variety of esoteric practices but that's just a detour away from the true path.

It can be.

It can be.

Well,

I think there's two things in my mind.

There is,

Contrary to what a lot of people believe and teach,

I do believe there is a necessity for a guru,

That one should find oneself a master,

A teacher who has worked their way through the traps that exist on the spiritual path so that they can receive that wisdom and guidance for themselves and that coincides with doing shadow work.

And you know,

I honestly … the typical practitioner,

Unless a person is exceptionally capable,

They are not skilled and they do not have the correct apparatus to see their way through the pitfalls on their own.

And so,

A lot of people disagree with me on that idea but I firmly feel that it's true.

It was true for myself.

There is no way I could have seen my own materialistic nightmares without the help of someone who could see them for me.

Yeah,

I would agree with that because until you've enlarged your framework to the point where you can look back at those things in yourself with some objectivity,

Then you're still going to be ruled by them.

Yeah,

Yeah.

And there's a way in which we can't help but preserve and protect our ego.

And what a teaching situation will do is it will help to expose the defensiveness around our egoic strategies and that's part of the shadow work.

And when those defenses are addressed,

It helps us see how we are protecting and maintaining something that is false,

A false center,

A false self.

Yeah,

Yeah.

I know from doing my own shadow work that there were moments when I felt like I was saying goodbye to myself.

And you know,

And I went through the same phase,

I guess you could call it,

It's almost like growing pains where I thought that I had already arrived somewhere quote unquote and that there was not much else left to do.

And that's kind of the most dangerous time because that's when all of your stuff is like,

Okay,

Here,

It's almost like the divine will go,

Oh,

You think you're so smart,

Huh?

Or you think you're so advanced,

Here,

Deal with this.

And then,

You know,

Here's something from your childhood you haven't thought about in 20 years or,

You know,

Here's your relationship with so and so that is still bothering you.

Or here,

Let me send this new person in your life to trigger you and bring up that stuff.

And it's really remarkable and miraculous the way that works.

But there's a lot of terror in letting go of the narratives that have sustained you and the positive opinions you hold about yourself.

It's not so much the negative things that you think about yourself like,

Oh,

I'm just unworthy,

I'm not smart enough,

I'm not,

You know,

Don't have the right body or whatever it happens to be for an individual,

But the stuff that you thought was good.

To the extent that those things were in error or inflated,

Maybe is a better way to put that,

The moment that you finally see that and have to let that go is,

It's like falling off a cliff.

It's just this sort of stark terror of,

Ah,

But if I can't define myself with this or that or that other thing,

Then what's left?

Is there a me?

Well,

You can see exactly why there's such reluctance to engage in a path honestly and deeply because it does mean risking that loss,

It does mean risking that fall.

And Chogyam Trungpa also said something very wise,

He said that the ego is always trying to attain enlightenment.

If we understand what that means,

It means that this concept of what we are,

This model that we take ourselves to be,

It's always trying to achieve that point you spoke of,

That end point where now I've got it,

Now I've arrived.

Now,

Of course,

We are arriving all the time,

But there is in that gesture to try to solidify an arrival,

An end point of some kind,

Some kind of eternalism,

If you will,

There's this deep avoidance of emptiness,

There's this deep avoidance of space and the ego when it confronts that emptiness in that space,

It hesitates and it hesitates by solidifying itself.

And much of spiritual practice is simply that,

Much of people's spiritual practice is to try to reinforce the structure of the ego to help it hold up a little stronger and better and ultimately it's of no use.

Yeah.

I think of that kind of as the hologram in my head that I hold of myself,

The image that I have carried around forever and watching pieces of that just kind of evaporate one after another and coming to the stark realization that that was always a ghost,

That that person was never real,

That woman I thought I was was never real.

And you can use your spirituality to then refill in those blanks kind of frantically,

The ego can kind of put together this new image and now maybe it's wearing Lululemon jeans and carrying mala beads,

Et cetera,

To try to just replace that.

But I think once you've dissolved the old,

You can kind of try to rebuild something new,

But something in you has changed and something in you will eventually rise back up to say,

Nope,

That one's not right either.

And a teacher can definitely facilitate the total dissolution of all those ideas you held about yourself and all these holograms that were kind of waiting to fill in and just decide or realize that you can come to a place where you need no hologram.

All you need to do is be this awareness in this moment.

Exactly.

You said that really well.

We seek reinforcement for the hologram.

We seek to reinforce this image of ourselves and sometimes we're even vaguely successful at that.

But as you said,

What a true teacher or rather a true path will do is it will help liberate every hologram,

Every self-referencing image that we have so that we can truly live as that open,

Spacious presence of being that we are.

Yeah,

And this circles back to the fact that we've talked about this idea before that the brain needs an object to relate to and that includes your idea of what you are or who you are.

So when the brain can no longer relate to a quote unquote you,

What is the brain to do with that?

Exactly.

You know,

We speak of materialism and that can be a somewhat abstract word but when what is materialism but a philosophy of objects and the brain is occupied,

Its whole universe is composed of objects,

Things and the utility of those things and so we can't help,

No spiritual practitioner can help approaching the spiritual path as something to utilize and that's where the deep misunderstanding occurs is that we don't gain spiritual knowledge and understanding and experience to utilize for our egoic purposes.

That's not the aim.

The aim is to undo our egoic structures completely.

Yeah,

We spend a lot of time as a culture talking about freedom in the United States or all about freedom and we really don't want that,

I think most of us.

We learn to love it on the spiritual path at some point but in the beginning we want to know what our identity is,

We want to know what our job is,

What's our role and all of these little things kind of build up to support that hologram but they in fact entrap us.

They keep us from being able to move in any direction or flow freely and if we embark on a spiritual path to try to undo those things and instead layer more stuff on,

It's just different stuff.

It's not giving us the freedom which is the ultimate outcome of our process.

Well therein lies one of the core elements of spiritual materialism is this very deep confusion between personal freedom and inner freedom and how vastly different those two things are.

That exploration is a good one,

The difference between personal freedom and inner freedom because with personal freedom we tend to define that by being able to acquire what we want,

Do what we want,

Have what we want,

Think what we want and there is a certain kind of freedom in that but it's not the same as inner freedom where we are free of even those needs,

Those trappings and so personal freedom is always conditional.

It always depends on having certain conditions met and inner freedom isn't.

Inner freedom requires no external condition for its maintenance.

I was doing a little workshop with some students one time and we were talking about ego and I said whatever follows the phrase a person like me does or a person like me is,

Anything you fill into the blank after that is a limiting egoic expression.

Well yes,

I mean every definition because in the end all definitions will fall away and there's no definition that we can ultimately use to secure ourselves from death and from emptiness and when I say emptiness I don't mean emotional emptiness but the spaciousness of our being.

But we try,

We try very hard to protect ourselves from those sorts of understandings.

So the question becomes at a certain point how do we resolve these aspects of spiritual materialism within ourselves and earlier we mentioned working with the shadow elements of our being and you know once I heard something very wise,

I can't recall who said it but the statement went something like this that if you don't know how dangerous you are,

If you have not looked into your own capacity for hate and greed and evil and destruction then you live in a sort of denial of how dark you can actually be and the more in denial you are of these facets and capacities of yourself,

The more dangerous you are to others and to the world.

And so what happens in spiritual materialism is a sort of constructing oneself as good and that leads to a certain denial of these shadow elements of the self which are so necessary to integrate not only for our own experience of wholeness but also that we may understand the full scope of our humanness in a way to approach our life wisely and sanely.

Yeah,

Yeah,

I mean and let's be clear we all have these dark aspects of our psyches and if you don't address that with yourself,

If you're constantly projecting that on the other,

Whoever that is,

Another culture,

Another tribe,

Another person in your life then it's like having a tiger in your basement that's really,

Really hungry and you can ignore it for a while maybe but eventually something's going to come up and that tiger is going to demand to be out.

Well you're right,

Yeah.

The tiger is going to find a way to surface and if it doesn't surface through obvious means it's going to surface through subtler,

More hidden,

More deceptive means.

Yeah and probably in a dysfunctional way.

Well a good example of that,

I'm only recently clued into this term virtue signaling but it's a good example of spiritual materialism in the way that this gesture of showing one's moral superiority or virtue is actually a display that hides other elements of one's personality and presents an image that look at me,

I'm good.

And while that is,

We all want to be good,

We all want to be seen as good but we don't recognize how destructive it can be to signal ourselves in such a way where the tiger is kept in the basement.

Yeah,

I mean you may as well walk around with a t-shirt on that says I'm a good person.

It's kind of a passive aggressive way of getting that message out.

But yeah,

I mean the Bible cautions against praying openly in the marketplace.

Yes.

I forget how Jesus termed it.

I think didn't Jesus address that in the sermon?

He did.

Let it happen in secret where no one can see.

And similarly when He comes upon the scene where the woman was to be stoned,

I think it was a woman that was to be stoned and He says,

You know,

Those of you who have not sinned let you cast the first stones.

And of course there's nobody,

There's nobody who has lived a spotless life.

And when we carry ourselves as if we have,

There's a very deep deception that we do with ourselves and there's harm that is done to ourselves and to others.

Oh,

You bring up a really good point there too with your example of the stoning,

Which is that if we do not acknowledge and work with our own shadow selves intentionally in sort of a,

I don't want to say controlled setting,

But formally maybe is the way to think about it.

If we don't work on ourselves in that way,

We are going to work on it in a different way,

Which is projecting our darkness,

Our evil,

Anything we don't like about ourselves on someone else and then attacking it in them,

Which is,

I think we talked about this recently in A Course in Miracles and it was so obvious to me in this discussion that what's going on with the Black Lives Matter movement right now,

Specifically with the police brutality that they're protesting,

Is that I think the police are projecting their darkness onto whoever it is that they're brutalizing and actually attacking their own stuff.

And of course a cop is dressed up in his uniform,

His outfit of his costume of being a good guy and then attacking the bad somewhere else.

Yes,

Well as far as I'm concerned,

It doesn't matter which issue you're talking about or which side you're talking about,

So long as there is a notion that the other is wrong and until we can look into our own life and see where we are wrong,

Nothing good will come of it.

Because there are great horrors happening everywhere in all sorts of different ways and there are people who are being hurt who have not deserved that,

Definitely.

And the one element of the tiger in the basement that is certainly true is that it will find its way to prey on others and we should be very careful before we go pointing our finger at anybody else until we have acknowledged just how treacherous and tyrannical we ourselves can be.

Yeah.

I think we keep circling back to this same point,

Which is if the ego needs to think of itself as good,

If the ego needs to constantly compare itself favorably and elevate itself above another,

First of all you're reifying the ego and rebuilding that hologram that you hold of yourself that's available to judge and be judged.

And in order to avoid that trap door on the spiritual path,

We need to be looking down and not up.

Yeah,

I think so.

That's a bad analogy.

That's a bad metaphor.

Looking in but not out before we look out.

Yes,

And if we will simply do that,

If we will simply be willing to face the war,

Face the oppression,

Face the hatred in ourselves,

Then this materialistic approach of walking out into the world as if we're such angels and saints up against these forces of evil will undo that neurotic idea and with it will go a great many things like blame and identities of victimization where we can stand in true power and authority together.

And then from that space good will naturally arise.

It's not like you have to create it using the ego.

It's not like you have to point to it in yourself.

It will simply be effortlessly.

Exactly.

It's an effortless outpouring of our willingness to live truthfully.

So I brought a poem today that sort of speaks to spiritual materialism,

More from the consumerist angle I think.

But just a fair warning,

It is PG-13 and this is by the poet Mira.

The title is,

Is All This God Stuff Real?

Girls,

Think twice before inviting God near.

His charms will turn you into a slave.

Are you ready for such a wonderful bondage?

What if your human lover is just about ready to insert a pulsating mass into your forest and rain there?

What if just as he,

She enters,

You hear his flute calling?

Did you run outside in a second,

Naked and ready for the world to make fun of you?

For who can really see him?

Everyone may think you are worshipping a mirage.

And what if he asked you to give all your gold bangles and fine cloths to the next beggar you see?

Giving him our clay,

Our body to shape is one thing,

For this can excite us.

But when our jewelry and silk are at risk,

Surely it is time to seriously ask,

Is all this God stuff real?

Ah,

Lovely.

I love it.

Little cheeky.

Uh huh.

Yeah,

I love it.

I love it.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Into the Mystery.

We hope you gained something useful.

If you'd like to learn more about our work,

You can go to our websites.

Mine is at adivadra.

Org,

A-D-I-V-A-J-R-A dot org.

Or visit rishikas at interdimensionalyoga.

Com.

If you have questions or topics you'd like to hear about in future episodes,

Be sure to drop us a line.

We'd love to hear from you.

Thanks for listening.