The Adult Chair Podcast: Conscious Uncoupling

Unfortunately no one teaches us how to end relationships well. Michelle Chalfant and Katherine Woodward Thomas aim to offer a fresh perspective on breaking up and ending well. On this podcast, they discuss the process called Conscious Uncoupling (which Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin made famous), as well as sharing 5 key practices that if followed, lead to a happy and fulfilling life.

Transcript

Hello, Everybody, And welcome to the adult chair. I am Michelle Schelfont, And today everybody, I have a fabulous guest. Her name is Katherine Woodward Thomas. She's the author of Conscious Uncoupling, Fabulous book. I'm thrilled to have her on and we're going to have a phenomenal conversation. We have a lot to talk about in one minute. But first, You can find out more about the show at theadultchair. Com. You can join the conversation on Facebook or Instagram and make sure to request to join the adult chair private close group on Facebook to learn more about the adult chair and how you can also learn how to live from your healthiest, Best self. It's a fabulous group. And the last bit of news I have for you guys is don't forget, I will be in San Diego October 12th through 14th doing the adult chair workshop. You all have asked for it. So I'm coming out West. So if you want more information on that, It is at theadultchair. Com forward slash workshops. Katherine Woodward Thomas, She is the author of the New York Times bestseller Conscious Uncoupling five steps to living happily even after and the national bestseller calling in the one seven weeks to track the love of your life. She's also a licensed marriage and family therapist and teacher to thousands from all corners of the world in her virtual and in person learning communities. Welcome to the adult chair. I am absolutely thrilled to have you on. And I was just saying to you what this whole book is basically how to uncouple from what I would call the adult chair. So I can't wait to hear what you have to say. Welcome. Thank you, Michelle. It's such a delight to be with you. I love your work. I love what you're doing. And it's so important for us to be able to navigate life and make choices and take actions that are consistent with the highest and the best of who we are. So thank you for opening up this conversation. Thank you. Thank you. So where would you like to start? There's so much that we can talk about. Let's start at how much pain people are in around breakups. That's a perfect place. We have to start where people are. And even, You know, Who are maybe months out of a relationship, Years out of a relationship, We still might be suffering with unresolved grief, Mistakes that we made or feelings of resentment and humiliation for how poorly you were treated by someone. And we're still kind of left with the residue of the self-sense that that generates. I always like to say that, You know, Breakups are a trauma on two levels. I mean, First, There's the attachment trauma. You acted with someone and having a relational home that's now no longer your home. But then there's the other trauma if you were rejected by somebody and somebody did the kind of primitive defenses against the relationship, Meaning that they put you down or you devalued or diminished your relationship or diminished you, Made you wrong, And even are still holding resentment or have a story about you. Like that's actually what I call an insult to identity. And that's really where the residue stays with us for a very long time. So you know, We all know that grief has a natural progression. And we're always going to feel sad when we lose someone. We're going to go through all of the feelings that are around that, The depression about that or the anger about that, The failed expectations, The loss of a perceived future is a big loss. Yeah. Along with the other losses, Which might be your home or your teens or your community. Breakups are kind of not just one loss, They're multiple losses. So true. That's the amount of pain that we're in with a breakup. And when a breakup is happening, The studies show that our brains on a breakup look exactly the same as someone who's undergoing the death of a loved one. Wow. It is. It's such a deep grief when we're parting ways with someone. So I would suspect that that's really accurate. It is so much pain. Well, We have to find for it. Like nature kind of hardwired us to bond. And if you think about the history of humanity, For most of our history, We've kind of lived in one little community for our whole lives with just a few other hundred people. And then you died before you were 40. So people didn't really break up a lot. That's so true. So true. So do you talk with people about how do we move past this pain and how do we move beyond the grief? I know people that sometimes carry this grief for years and years and years post breakup and they cannot let it go. Your whole life can be diminished in the after a bad breakup. That's why I was motivated to write the book because I'm also the author of Calling You The One. And I saw that one of the biggest obstacles to being able to create happiness and love is a very bad breakup in the past that is still unresolved. And so there's ways that either we live from that sense of self that is cultivated in that breakup of I'm not good enough or see I'm always going to be alone or whatever that story is that we kind of revert back to because it just got validated. Or we just don't trust love moving forward. And I you know, The thing about not trusting love or not trusting men, You know, Or women, It really has to do with not trusting yourself. Yeah. You don't trust yourself to keep yourself safe. So that's that's missing development. The second half of the title of the book, Conscious Uncoupling, Is Five Steps to Living Happily Even After. And it's about really recovering not just not just bouncing back, But bouncing forward and using the pain of the breakup to actually kind of crack you open and catapult you beyond where your patterns have been, Where you've gotten where you've been limited in relationships in the past so that you feel actually more equipped to love and be loved in the aftermath of this heartache. And it really is a process that you have to midwife. It's not normally an organic process. It's just like if you broke your leg, You wouldn't just let your leg kind of heal of its own accord. You wouldn't go to the hospital and the doctor would say, Well, You know, It's a time to heal your broken leg, Because the doctor would know that your leg would heal crooked. And it would never be quite right after that. So our hearts just like you know, When we break our heart, Just like when we break our leg, We have to set it properly, We have to give it guidance, We have to, You know, Midwife and shepherd that healing process along. Because if you can do that, What happens when bones break, Just like when hearts break, Is if they grow back together again properly, They grow stronger where it once was broken. So conscious uncoupling is that process that will bring people safely to the other side. And it seems like to consciously uncouple, We have to go deeper within ourselves, Which I absolutely love. I heard you say that. I don't know if I read that in the book, Or I heard you on another show, But I really agree with that. It seems like when people are breaking up, Or they're in so much pain, We look outside of ourselves to numb that pain or to put a bandaid on that pain. But I love when you talk about really going inside and tapping into what's going on inside versus stepping outside and trying to fix it. Well, I think also the other way we externalize is that we blame our partner. Yeah. Right, We have our focus on what he did that he shouldn't have done. He cheated, He lied, He took my child bearing yours from me, Or whatever that rageful conversation is. He's a narcissist. That's what I love about him now. But where the juice is, As I like to say, Even if it was 97% the other person's fault, You really want to be interested in your 3%. Because until you understand your 3%, Which very often tends to be subtle, Like you skipped over your knowing, Or you just ignored the red flags, Or you thought you could love enough for the two of you, Or whatever that 3% was, If you didn't speak up for yourself, If you need to know them clearly, You can negotiate the boundaries of the relationship. That 3% is pretty lethal. And until you see it and you make amends to yourself, Like, I will never do that again, You actually can't trust yourself moving forward. And this is where our chances for love dim down. That's actually the second step of conscious uncoupling is reclaim your power in your life, Because that's always going to be about taking personal responsibility for your part. Yeah. And then it typically happens that then we will attract the same person in over and over again until we're looking at even that little 3%. Right? It's so simple. You know, The biggest changes that we make in our lives are these very subtle moments of choice, Very subtle moments of choice. And there's always a choice point. And I try and track back with people what that choice point is. So they're coming in and they're, You know, Seven years of being with someone who's incredibly abusive, Self-absorbed, Never takes personal responsibility, And you're getting smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller in your relationship. And they want to know like the big questions like how does this happen? And was it my mother? And was it my father? And you know, Those are great conversations to have, But they don't tend to liberate us. Right. What liberates us is to go back to the first date when you notice this person was all about themselves, And you just made a decision that that was okay. Right. And you know, It's that you talked about them for three hours. And you never, They never asked you about you, Nor did they ask you about you on the second, Third, Fourth, Or fifth date. But you know, These are times when you're assessing someone's character. Right. Like pretty important on that first date. Yes. What choice point that opens up. Okay, If somebody talks about themselves the whole night and never asked me about me, And I make the effort to presence myself because that's co-created too, Because I might be a good deflector. Yeah. I might be a really good mirror, Which is I'm not really sharing about me. I'm a person all night long, So they think I'm the perfect woman now, Is to take the risk to be vulnerable, To share about myself and talk about what matters to me. And then if the other person doesn't seem to have an interest or that conversation falls flat, That's a lot of information. And even though I think this is the sexiest person I've met in a decade, I'm not going to sit out on a second date. Right, Right. So true. But I think that we sweep it under the carpet. You know, We just, We don't want to see what's right in front of us. We get stuck in blinds. Yeah. We get to know this person's narcissist, Why all the men narcissists? So I say, I'm never dating another person again, Or another CEO again, They're all narcissists. Or, You know, We just go off into the races. Whoever were victimized, We can't ever come to a conclusion that's going to liberate us from a victimized place. So you have to get out of victimization as the starting point for trans. That is so powerful what you just said. That's like my whole work. I love that. It is. We got to step out of that victim. We have to. And it's hard because we break up into a victimized conversation. So true. So true. Wow. So I mean, You asked me before how it happens. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. So the first step is to meet us where we are, Which tends to be kind of out of our minds in a tremendous amount of pain. Pain that's even, If you have a broken heart, You feel pain like it's a physical pain in your body. You can have sensations in your body, Like your skin is on fire. Like all these little things like I was burned in love, It comes from what's actually happening in our bodies. So, And sometimes, You know, I've conscious uncoupling for people who have been the rejecter too, Have been living kind of a duplicitous experience, Trying, You know, Feeling obligated to stay guilty about leaving. But there's a lot of big emotions that are associated with a breakup. And the first thing we have to do is to hold them from a loving space within ourselves. And this is your work. Yeah. Right. You locate the part of yourself that is strong and wise and capable. And you literally hold yourself and you talk to yourself and you say things like, Honey, What are you feeling right now? And you help yourself to label the emotions because studies show that when we're able to label our emotions, They deescalate in intensity. Basically, What we want to do in step one, Which is find emotional freedom, Is to get to a place where we can sponsor the healthy impulse that's underneath every difficult emotion. So, For example, The healthy impulse of rage is you are ready to reclaim your rights. Like I will never again be treated like a doormat. That will just never happen in my life again. Right? I deserve to be respected. So when you say that, Then you set an intention that from this moment forward in all of my relationships, I will cultivate mutual respect. I will feel honored. I will feel heard. We transform a negative emotion into the fuel for positive change. And I always say that there's so much power that comes from being angry. I'm not saying rage, But if we can get under the rage and find that true anger, All of those statements that you just said seem to come out. It's like, Yes, I deserve this. I deserve a healthy relationship. But I think people, Again, Like you were just saying, We were saying about that being a victim, We get stuck there. I just want to back up a second. You were talking about finding that inner part, That inner strength. I think you said something like that. So many people I find when we're breaking up or we're, You know, We fall into that, I don't have that inner strength. It's not in there. And I love what you said about talking to that inner part, That inner child part and finding it. And it makes it bigger the more we talk to that part. We've all got it. We have to remember that. We may not feel strong, But it's inside of us. And we can make it through. But there's that collapsing sensation that people go through at the end of a relationship. It's like, I don't have it in me. Yes, You do. We just have to find it. Well, And anger is the energy of change. Yeah. So that's either going to come out in a very destructive way or in a constructive way. So we want to point it in that right direction. Yes. Yes. And in terms of, You know, It's interesting. I don't know that the part of us that's having really overwhelming feelings is always a child part. And the child part is the part of us that's making false meaning of whatever we're feeling. But the feelings are natural. But to be able to hold and bear the unbearable and some of the feelings I know are unbearable, It really are unbearable. And what I do, One of the things in the book that I offer is a Buddhist practice of tongue Glenn that helps us to bear the unbearable. And basically, The way we're doing that is we're expanding our awareness of all of the people in the world who are experiencing this very same difficult emotion, Humiliation, Terror, Rage, Whatever the big emotion is, All of the people in this very moment who are also experiencing this. And I pray a blessing for myself and for them. And you do this with breath work. So it's very effective. And basically, What we want to do is get us back into the rational same part of the mind. Because when we have emotions that are more than we can contain, Which is the very definition of trauma, That's where we get reactive, When we can't hold our own inner experience. So that's the first step in conscious uncoupling is getting us back into some sense of cohesion within ourselves so that we can actually behave in a way that's aligned with our ethics and our spirituality, As opposed to just our overwhelming emotions. Love it. Yeah. And then we go into step two. So we kind of did that little reach backwards, But it's really taking inventory of our part and all in service really to making amends to ourselves moving forward to restore our own trust to ourselves. To learn the lesson, Life lessons are very costly. I've had life lessons that have cost me several hundred thousands of dollars. So for my life, I'm sure others have too. Yeah. We make mistakes and mistakes. But you know what wisdom is priceless. And the way that pain can grow compassion, Can really grow us up is quite beautiful. And I think we just want to value that in and of itself and forgive ourselves. And we move into step three, Which is breaking the pattern, Healing your heart. And what breaking the pattern is, Is to start to recognize that the dynamics that kind of crashed and burned, This is not new. The ways you made mistakes, The ways you were taken advantage of, You know, This pattern didn't start with this person and you can trace it all the way back to childhood and we call that your source fracture wound. It's a long break in your heart and that's where we go in and we look for the meaning that you made that I was talking about up front. When we realign that meaning, We challenge that meaning. It's not true that I will always be alone. Yes, My lover just left me, But it doesn't mean that I will forever be doomed to being alone. As a matter of fact, I came here to love and be loved. And really, Actually, It's inside of that because he wasn't loving me very well. So my soul broke it wide open. I have a destiny to be loved. You have to really talk yourself or think yourself with your adult self out of that younger conversation because those younger conversations that get stuck in us are very unsophisticated. You know, We really need these stories and we were like four. So they lack much thought or sophistication. They don't hold much complexity and they look like an energetic in our bodies. And that's where they're hard to deconstruct because we get overly identified with our feelings. So we have to be able to step back and challenge the automatic assumptions and the meaning that we're making. And they're so unconscious, All of those thoughts and stories. Like in a breath. Yeah. I mean, They just go through the brain. It's just on and on and on and on and on. It's like, Hold on. That's why I love this whole book. Conscious. We have to step into our consciousness and say, Hold on. This story is not true anymore for me. I'm not going to buy into it. Yeah. I love it. Step four, Become a love alchemist. Tell us about that. Oh, It's my favorite. I'm a little love bunny and I love spreading love. So because I think all of us are. We're loving people and we have a sense of purpose. What the world needs now is love, Sweet love. So let it happen for me. And why not through the hardest person to love in this moment? So it's not about actually going out and loving somebody who's being abusive to you. Obviously, You're going to have to reset your boundaries. But sometimes we have people who are cooperating and sometimes we have children between us. So you can't just cut somebody off. And even if you do have a relationship with somebody who you don't have any reason to stay connected to them, You want to have a blessing in your heart for them. You don't want to cut them off with hatred because Merritt Malloy, I have a lot of quotes in the book and Merritt Malloy said relationships that do not end peacefully do not end at all. I think we all know that one. I think we've had people I've been in relationship with 10 years after having never seen them. So we really have to be at peace and that can happen within us. Some people were never going to go back and we knew a friendship with because they weren't they didn't show up like a friend and they're not showing up now like friends. So you just wish them well. But in your heart, You want to hold them maybe like a dark guru or a teacher or somebody who came to show you certain things that you needed to up level in your own life. But if you want children, You're going to transition from being lovers to co parents. This is the thing about what we do with children. We think that children are more resilient than they are. Yes, I hear that all the time. Well, The kids are resilient. I'm like, No, They're actually not. And by the way, Why are you letting your children do your work for you? Yeah. I like how you said that. That's beautiful. Yeah, That's great. If you made a baby with that person, You got to see that one through. That's just karma. You got to see that one through. So I don't care. Yes, That character problems. Yes, She's a narcissist. Or yes, She does terrible things. But we're going to but you don't want to ever put children into the middle. Now a lot of people think if they go into kind of a cold war and just create their own separate families and your family when you're with your kids three days a week, And then the kid goes off to the other family, Kids will go live with grief when you do that because they always have to leave one of their families. Right. They're going to the other family. So the ideal that we're all aspiring to here and none of us do this perfectly. But the ideal is that you form one family that is a happy post divorce family. And I'm a great poster child for that. I have been living for the last few years in the same apartment building as my former husband. And our daughter is free to go between her two apartments. I am welcome into their apartment. My former husband is welcome into my not into our private spaces, But into the living room. So it's very boundary does what I'm hearing is very boundary, Very boundary, But very open also. I don't go into his kitchen and take his orange juice out of the fridge. Yeah, I think that that's important for people to hear. You know, You're opening up your space, But your your common areas in the home. Yeah, And I like that. So you're not going in and like, I'm going to go get a snack. Not unless I leave a note, Would you like me to replace this? Yeah, I was I mean, So we're guests in each other's homes. What is it? You feel like a guest. So you have to get a bit more formal in which you can do. I mean, It takes a while to transition. A lot of conscious uncoupling is looking to the future that you're committed to creating. And then one moment at a time, Finding your way to that future, Taking the high road, Being a big person, Making an amends, Taking responsibility for your part. You know, There's just you're going to chip away at that. And then suddenly you find it's Christmas Eve and you're all decided to have dinner together with family and friends. And you're all laughing hysterically, Like having fun together. That's just what happens when you do your work. It just is organic. So, You know, My former husband, I mean, I just took I took him and my daughter and my mom, Who still calls my former husband her son-in-law and brother and we took my former husband out for lunch yesterday because it was his birthday. So we just live like this. And then on the holidays, His other former wife and their daughter will come to my home and stay with me. And you know, And it's just, You have an incredible you are the poster. Child for sure, Because I've heard your whole entire story and it's truly like, Wow. In fact, I remember hearing something about your husband's. Is it his first wife or excuse me, Your daughter wanted your husband's first wife to be her godmother. Is that right or something? Yes, It was so so that was incredible. I thought, Oh, My God, So beautiful. My daughter really likes his other former wife, Who was his wife before me. And they come every holiday and spend it and she and their daughter and they spend Christmas in my home usually. And one year when my daughter was, I don't know, She was pretty little, But she kind of cozied up to me and she said, Mommy, Can I ask and to be my godmother because I want the same mother as my sister has. Wow. I just. Unbelievable. I know. And I said, Of course, Sweetheart, That's a wonderful idea. So we've made something quite unique and lovely out of kind of the what could have been very fragmented and very. But, You know, I can hear a lot of these listeners are going to be in the closed group or emailing me saying to me, What if I'm with somebody that's, You know, A total asshole and there's no way that they would want to come for Christmas. So what do you do if one of the people in the relationship really wants to do conscious uncoupling and the other person is truly like not interested, Throwing you under the bus, Saying terrible things about you behind your back to the kids? How do you how do you be strong in that? Or how do you what would you say to these people? Well, I think that's a very common and I think it's probably more common than my situation. And I like to tell people that, You know, One of the it was great when Glen has popped conscious uncoupling into the lexicon and been teaching people for years already how to do that. And but one of the downsides of that is because she modeled it so beautifully, People assume that it's just when two people want to consciously uncouple together. And it's not really how it is. Mostly the people who are conscious are in a lot of pain because they've been with someone who is really hell bent on being unconscious and doing things. So true. Yeah. So step four also talks about becoming a love alchemist, How to kind of dance with those darts, The way that's going to de-escalate the other person's hostility and make the playing field more comfortable for your children and just de-escalate and begin to build a different kind of connection with that person. So for an example, One woman that I worked with had a very angry former husband who by the way was already living with another woman. And they had a little, I think five, I think their son was five at the time. And they, The husband and the new woman were quite nasty to her and they would bad mouth her in front of their son. So of course, You know, This is horrible for her to experience. And so what I suggested that she did, She had an opportunity one day where he was sick. So what I had her do was to call his girlfriend and offer his girlfriend, And she only knew it because the son told her that she, To offer his girlfriend his favorite recipe for chicken soup. So the girlfriend could make it for him. And they were so stunned that she did that, That it kind of was a, What was a pattern interrupt. Yeah. And that would startle them because they're in a war zone, But she didn't have to go into a war zone. And actually she could do something generous. So I talk about these generous gestures as a way to deescalate. And step four comes after one, Two, And three. You've done your work. So you're capable of doing this. I think a lot of us can't do this with any genuine care in our hearts for our child. She did this not for him. She did this for her son because he was really messing her son up to pull on her son to be disloyal to her. But that, He was five. That was a bad, Bad, Bad situation. So she did a very wise thing. She did a Solomon move. Yeah. Very wise thing. And she kept that up until they became much more civil with each other and they really stopped pulling on that child. Now it never became what I have with my former husband, But it really doesn't have to, It just needs to get the kids out of the danger zone. And you cannot reason with that person to be a better person. Exactly. You could do it in your marriage and you're probably not going to do it with your children. Nope. You're not going to change it. It's not about the other person. You're not. So it's actually the power that we have to have influence on how this is going to go. So you're actually becoming the stronger influence. And it's the intention. You know, The intention is again for the child or for the kids and not for changing the other person or for become or for even having what you have is just the intention is to help the kids not be in the middle of this war zone. And in step four, You actually are invited to set an intention and I'm a big fan of big bold intentions. I like living from the backwards because you declare a future that's not predictable from where you are now. And then you ask yourself who would I need to be being to find my way to that future? Yeah. So you know, You have a big crash and burn in your marriage. Maybe you've had the other person's gone to a nasty attorney, Which is so unfortunate because the legal system is so thrives off of stillity. And coming out of that. And then you take an intention, You set an intention to have a happy post divorce family. Well, How are you going to get there from where you are? There's been so much damage done. Well, It begins, You know, It's like the journey of a thousand miles begins with one step. What can you do today to generate cohesion, To generate forgiveness, To generate togetherness and teamwork. And you're going to be shocked at how much progress you can make and what you can have the power to change. The fifth step of a conscious uncoupling is creating your happily even afterlife. And that has to do with two things really. One is to become conscious of the new agreements that you have moving forward. And the agreements are going to be like, You know, A kindness contract that you craft together. You know, You might just say in our family, We have a family that is respectful of each other. I will always honor my former husband as the father of my children. I won't have a bad mouth him in front of our children. So you have these new agreements, But he's not your lover anymore. And you're not the most important person to him in the planet anymore. And he doesn't have to be there for you in the middle of the night when you have a panic attack. There are certain things that we need to let go of in terms of what that relationship has been to us in the past. And we have to get clear about what it will be, What it is now and what it will be moving forward. And then create and design structures around that. And that has to do with the legal team that you have around you. A lot of professionals now in the legal profession who are advocates of conscious divorce to make sure you have that kind of a legal team, Whether that's a collaborative divorce team or you have a mediator. I have some conscious uncoupling coaches who are actually attorneys and they're also trained conscious uncoupling coaches. So they're standing inside of the ethics of conscious uncoupling. And those family separations tend to go very, Very well. Or let's even call them family reconfigurations. I love that. I think everyone going through a breakup needs to read this book. And every attorney, Every divorce attorney needs to hand this to both couples. Both parties need to read this book. And hopefully they can reap a few, I mean, There's so many jewels or there are nuggets in this book that are fabulous and can turn your whole life around when it comes to ending a relationship. So it's fabulous. Fabulous, Fabulous. I wish we had more time. This was so, So good. It was great actually. Thank you, Catherine. Back another time. I'm really grateful you invited me. Please. Yeah. So can you tell us where, And people didn't hear you say that, Catherine is the originator of the conscious uncoupling process made famous by Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin. So can you tell us, I know you have a lot to offer. So could you tell us where people can find you and what you're currently offering for people? Well, I just finished a starter kit, Which I'd wanted to do for a long time. So it's a free conscious uncoupling starter kit. If you go to conscious uncoupling. Com, You can download it. It has all of the five steps laid out. There's audios of me leading people through each of the steps. I believe there's another podcast talk on it and a talk that I gave live. There's a whole bunch of resources. There's also the conscious uncoupling creed. So I'm a bit of an over giver, Truth. I know how that is. Take this, Take this, Take this. We like, We love helping people, Right? So that's just what we do. I always spend too much money at Christmas and like the stockings are overflowing. So anyway, It's just whatever you want to take. It's just, It's free. You just put your email in, But it's at conscious uncoupling. Com and it's a starter kit. Awesome. Thank you. Well, This has been a delight. Catherine, Thanks so much for joining us today. It's been amazing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Right back at you. All right, Everybody, Do not forget to go and check out the San Diego class, The evening of Friday, October 12th through Sunday, October 14th. You can go to theadultchair. Com. For workshops for more information. And that's all I've got for you today. So I am Michelle Schelfant. I will see you sitting right here next week in the adult chair. Have a great week, Everybody. Today's podcast is sponsored by audible and you can get a free audio book download and a 30 day free trial at www. Audibletrial. Com forward slash the adult chair. And of course, Today's recommended book is conscious uncoupling. It is the five steps to living happily even after of course, By Catherine Woodward Thomas fabulous book. I have it sitting right in front of me right here. And for listeners of the adult chair, Audible is offering a free audio book download of this book or any book that you'd like, But I think this is the book for you guys. So make sure you get this book. And again, Just like we said, Catherine, It's free. Another free offering. If you want to go to audible trial. Com forward slash the adult chair.

Reviews

Amazing!!! Awesome advice we have a son and he’s my world but staying isn’t an option

Excellent discussion, thank you ladies! I'm currently working through the book, it is so helpful! Thanks again, much love to you both 💜x

Brilliant, very helpful! Definitely getting the book. Thank you! 🙏

Absolutely love this! I am struggling with this very issue! 😞😞😞😞 Thank you! ❤️❤️❤️