Episode Five: The Interview-Rev. Selena

Rev. Selena found herself in a mental hospital with no way out. In this longer interview, hear her tell of how she arrived there, how she struggled with the reality of it and how eventually, she found comfort in her miracle-words that suddenly appeared on a window. Her story reminds that we are not alone, ever, in this universe.

Please note: This track may include some explicit language.

Transcript

So what happened is I'm lying in bed and I'm staring at the ceiling and I was so mad.

I remember feeling so abandoned and I just yelled at God.

I said,

You know what?

Have I not been a good and faithful servant?

Like,

Where the fuck are you right now,

God?

Because I really thought I had done everything you asked.

Like,

Where the fuck are you right now?

I would describe myself as an introvert,

Extrovert Ravenclaw.

So I thrive.

And if you're not a Harry Potter fan,

That means nothing.

And if you are,

It means that I thrive on education and learning.

So I always want to know more things.

I always I mean,

I ask probably more questions than is appropriate sometimes.

So I'll just be like,

Oh,

Tell me more about that.

What is that?

And they're like,

Well,

I didn't expect to talk about myself.

Just tell me,

Tell me,

Tell me,

Tell me.

What do you got?

And it's I actually physically get depressed when I'm not learning.

I have to be learning or I literally get sullen.

Occupationally,

I am an interfaith minister,

And that means I pray well with others.

I work for the University of Denver in the Judaic Studies Department.

And so we also happen to be connected with the interfaith committee for the university.

My boss is fantastic.

My coworkers are fantastic.

The university as a staff member gives me free classes,

Which is fantastic.

I get tuition waivers,

Which Ravenclaws love.

So right.

Yeah.

So I just go right through there and love me some classes.

I actually I turned in my final paper for my summer class two nights ago and I got an A plus.

Yay.

So that's basically me.

I love karaoke.

It's good for the soul.

I love singing in general.

I'm very sad that the the pandemic had killed three shows that I was meant to be in.

They all died horrible,

Painful deaths.

One of them was killed two weeks before we opened,

And that was a cast of about 180.

And we were all heartbroken.

So it's this is this has messed with me a lot.

I'm enough introvert that I enjoy recharging by myself,

But not this much by myself.

So the poor grocery folks just get a lot of words out of me because I haven't seen people.

And I'm like,

Hi.

Well,

That's a great shirt.

Your mask is beautiful.

How you doing today?

That's we're fine,

Ma'am.

Here's your receipt.

Oh,

Thanks.

It's nice to have my receipt.

My father's family was Greek Orthodox and my mother's was Lutheran.

For some strange reason,

Which I never really figured out,

Most of my friends,

My best friends growing up,

We either dabbled in Wicca or they were all Jewish.

And so it was always an eclectic experience for me growing up.

So I remember in it has to have been sixth grade,

Seventh grade,

Somewhere in there,

Two things happened.

One was that I had a teacher and I remember very little else from that whole class because that we're talking seventh grade.

And this was just history.

And I remember her saying,

Well,

If you go to this part of the world and we're talking about the Middle East,

She says you may even go into a shoe shop and somebody will come up.

And every time they bring you a new pair of shoes,

They might say to you,

There is only one God and Muhammad is his prophet.

And she kept telling us about this.

And then finally she said,

The best thing you could possibly say is thank you.

Thank you for caring so much about my soul to tell me this.

And for whatever reason,

Although I wasn't really religious at one point,

Religion just went to me in a place that just it was really dark for me.

I'm like,

I got nothing to do with religion because and I do not remember what set me off against religion,

Though it was somewhere early in my life.

And I went,

Oh,

But I held on to that piece and the other piece I held on to.

And I wish I could tell you how I knew this,

But I didn't.

We used to joke at each other.

And one of my friends said to me,

Oh,

My God.

And I said,

Well,

My God,

Too,

Let's share.

And my sister went,

You can't say that to him.

He's Jewish.

I said,

Stephanie,

We have the same God.

We just don't believe in,

You know,

One of us believes in Jesus and the other doesn't.

Well,

How do you know?

Are you sure about that?

That can't be right.

And I'm sure it was seventh grade,

Too.

And I just knew I knew I'm like,

Well,

I was never trained in Judaism,

Though I knew that I had the same God as a Lutheran than my Jewish friend.

And so what's interesting about those two stories is that they happened back then.

I still remember them at the age of 42.

And my specialization in religion and in everything I do with my ministry is Abrahamic faith traditions and interreligious dialogue.

And that was my internship at IALF while I was getting my master's was the Abrahamic Initiative where Jews,

Christians and Muslims got together and talked about things.

And it's interesting to me because I didn't put these pieces together until just a few years ago when I went,

Oh,

That's right.

I still held on to that.

How do I remember my history teacher saying me that?

How do I remember such a silly,

Stupid conversation?

And I think there's a notion of the divine in there that says,

Celine,

You've always known your path.

You've always known where you're going and you held on to the pieces you would need as an adult.

And that's always kind of blown my mind.

I went to church when I got to Denver and I jumped around and it took me a while.

Though the church that felt like home to me finally turned out to be a Presbyterian church,

Which was not anything I'd ever really done before.

And so I've but at this point now,

I skip around.

I've done services at several Presbyterians,

Several Lutherans,

Several some non-denominational,

I guess is the word I want.

Just as a pulpit supply,

When my friends who are ministers with their own church want a Sunday off.

For about five,

Six months,

I was the minister in an Uber driving around and somehow the people who need religious guidance just hop into the Uber or they find me at the airport.

Like people just run into my arms and why?

Why do they think I'm a terrorist?

It's got to say minister across my forehead somewhere that people can read because I don't know where they come.

But I've had the one trip I took,

I had three people in a line that just rushed to me.

It must say Chaplet or something somewhere.

And they're just like,

I don't look like a terrorist.

Why do they always have to search me?

Oh,

My God,

He hurt my back when he searched me at the TSA.

And I'm like,

It's OK,

Baby,

It's going to be OK.

Who are you?

But it's OK because everybody is my everybody is my congregation,

I guess so.

There was a point it was somewhere later in high school,

I want to say junior,

Senior year,

Where my only religion was gospel,

If you will,

In the Bible is Matthew.

And it's in my verses,

18,

Three,

Truly,

I say to you,

Unless you turn and become like children,

You will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

I don't personally believe in hell.

I don't see a divine father,

Mother,

However you want to see it,

As punishing their children for eternity.

However,

I think part of the truth of the universe is that the only way to find it is to admit to yourself you do not know anything or at least you do not know everything.

And be willing to open your eyes and open your mind and experience the world as a child does,

Because children are always willing to learn.

And so that verse has always been important to me,

Though we went to church sometimes and I know my grandmother would have preferred we went to church more,

But I never really picked a real religion.

Everything was interesting to me.

And that's part of my Ravenclaw-ness.

Like I wanted to learn everything.

In college,

I'd invite the Latter-day Saints sisters in.

Oh,

Come in,

Have a cup of tea with me.

Tell me all about your faith.

And I haven't written to her for a while,

Though.

I've got a Jehovah's Witness that lives down the street from me that's been sending me pen pal letters for a few years.

And every now and then I write back and I ask her questions about her faith.

And I visited the Christian Science.

I visited the temples where I can.

I worked for the Dead Sea Scroll exhibit when it came through in Denver.

And I was one of the actors,

The archaeologist at the beginning.

We give you a little spiel and then we walk you through if you want to,

You know,

You want to learn things.

And the wonderful variation of people that came through that.

And of course,

I love School of Theology where I got the masters.

We have atheists.

Some atheists will come for the social justice degree.

And if you're in a class with atheists,

It's a really good discussion.

Like those were some of the best discussions of my career because I don't ever want to fight with somebody and go,

Well,

You're wrong.

Your religion is stupid.

What are you kidding me?

Or your lack of religion?

Because that isn't me.

What's me is really tell me about that.

How does that experience change your world?

What is that about in your world?

I think one of the things that's most important and very interesting about what you're saying is what's key to all of this is humility.

And being able to step back and say,

I don't know everything.

And in fact,

I'm excited to learn more.

Why don't we have a talk about it?

And I think that's what's missing in a lot of our society today is humility.

Yes,

That I would agree with that.

We've all of the leadership of the world,

Most of the leadership,

I won't say everybody,

Has gone very unilateral.

In layman's terms is it's all about me.

And some of them will even pretend it's all about my country,

But they're really just saying it's all about me.

And if humility was more of a,

Oh,

You know,

I know what I need for my country,

Though,

Why don't you tell me what you need for yours?

And we were working together and we don't even work well in the US on a state versus federal level.

And a lot of that is ego.

And I think if there was a bigger pull towards humility,

We would get a lot more done.

You know,

As far as can we please feed and how some of our folks around our own country,

Let alone helping folks around other countries,

Because if we can all drop the ego and realize that it's not all about us,

We really would be taking care of a lot more business.

You mentioned earlier,

You said it sounds like God has been saying,

Hey,

Here I am.

And this is not a story I've told before.

There's parts of it that are a little embarrassing,

So I won't get into all of it.

However,

There was a moment,

I've always had a little small level of depression.

And this happens and it happens for a lot of us,

Especially when we've,

Well,

It just happens for a lot of us.

And I think that's what I've been thinking about.

There was a moment,

I've always had a little small level of depression and this happens and it happens for a lot of us,

Especially when we've,

Well,

It just happens to a lot of us,

Period.

Though I had lost my father and things just were rough.

And at one point,

My doctor said,

Let's try this pill.

Now,

This pill,

Which I've blocked from my memory,

So I don't even remember the name,

Apparently had bad effects on almost everybody who took it.

At least everybody who took it from my doctor had a bad effect with it.

She told me nobody had as bad of effect as I had,

But she is no longer offering that pill for depression.

So,

And it's more anxiety for me and it blurs into the inability to sleep.

So she's always looking for something new for a little insomniac named Selena who just can't manage to get to sleep.

Anyway,

That was intro to tell you what happened is my body did not adjust to the drug.

And at one point I went to see a therapist and I was with a therapist and they refused to take me off the drug until I had been to at least three sessions.

And they had to be group sessions at least.

And the one day I showed up and they had canceled the group session because nobody showed up but me.

And you could tell this woman wanted to be somewhere else.

She's like,

Well,

There's only one person here,

So why should I stay?

And I said,

Look,

I'm really upset.

I just came here from a funeral and I'm having a rough day and I really need this and I need to get off this drug because it's horrible for me.

And instead she committed me to an insane asylum for the weekend and that got rid of me.

And I beg,

Turn out to I was not in a full time job at that point.

I did not have health insurance.

This was I've been still paying for this after this financially.

However,

I ended up for a weekend in an insane asylum and nobody could find me because they wouldn't tell anybody where I was.

There's a lot to this and I can tell you just from this small experience of one weekend that the United States health mental health system is a hot mess.

Like there it needs to be completely over something ruled over.

You know,

It needs to be taken down and put back up because nobody is being cared for properly.

And a friend finally finally she finally got hold of somebody and they told her where I was so that she could bring me some clothes and things.

But they took me off all of the medicine cold turkey to come off a very powerful antidepressant like that was rough.

But it also took me off some birth control pills I was taking to regulate my cycle.

That's a horrible thing when you suddenly go off that cold turkey.

The ladies will understand men may not,

But trust us,

It's awful.

And I didn't have fresh clothes.

I couldn't find anything to handle that special lady week,

Especially in a really heavy one after that.

So I had been lying in bed in the same set of dirty clothes for two days and I was a wreck.

And I had already been in seminary for about a year or so when that happened,

Maybe two.

And I finally I'm lying in bed and I wouldn't take food for two days because I kept trying to call the patient support line and they would not answer the phone.

They finally called me back two weeks after I was out of the hospital.

They said,

Well,

We don't know how we can help you now.

I said,

You can't help me now.

You're supposed to support me when I was in there.

They're taking off all my pills cold turkey and leaving me in filthy clothes for two or three days in a row.

Oh,

Well,

We're sorry.

So we're going to talk about health care later.

But eventually this health care business,

Especially mental health,

Is not is not well.

So what happened is I'm lying in bed and I'm staring at the ceiling and I was so mad.

I remember feeling so abandoned and I just yelled at God.

And I said,

You know what?

I can I swear?

Yes,

I can swear I was lying in bed going,

Have I not been a good and faithful servant?

Like,

Where the fuck are you right now,

God?

Because I really thought I had done everything you asked,

Like,

Where the fuck are you right now?

And I just happened to turn my head and I was my eyes were full of tears.

And there's a moment where if you like maybe blow on some glass and rub your finger through,

You'll see words.

And somebody who knows when,

Who knows where had just written the phrase,

I am here.

And those are the words I saw after I yelled,

Where are you?

And I'd never seen those words written on the glass before.

I couldn't find them later.

I could if I bent my head correctly in the light,

I could almost see the eye.

But I just screamed at him.

I screamed at God and I turned and looked and there it was.

I'm here.

And I'm like,

OK.

OK,

That's a thing.

And that was finally I mean,

My friend who had finally come to me,

She says,

Selena,

I understand how angry you are.

And if I were you,

I would be even more angry.

But you need to calm down because you're acting crazy and that is not going to help you in this situation.

And that even that didn't help call me.

But once I saw the words,

They just said,

I'm here.

Here I am.

And I could calm down.

It that has stayed with me for a very long time.

And I haven't seen I've seen some miracle moments.

There have been some severe miracle moments in my life.

And my friend Bonita says everybody may still be looking at this through the same stained glass window.

But pieces when the sun shines through hits different portions.

So for some people,

When they look at the divine,

The sun shines through the piece that says Islam.

And for some,

It shines through the Buddha and for some,

It shines through Judaism.

And for me,

It does it shines through all of it because I see the divine in all pieces.

I'm in a mailing list where a friend of mine does just random mailings.

She mails in the mail and she mails in the email and the title of one of hers,

She wrote a poem.

And the title was I am here.

And I'm like,

Janet,

You just blew my mind today.

Like whenever I see the phrase I am here,

Then I know it's God going,

Hey,

Pay attention.

I got a little something for you here.

So well,

Then it's really weird that I said that earlier on the conversation.

That's when I still hadn't decided in my mind which story I was going to tell you,

Because that one is there's levels of that.

That's really hard for me because I didn't belong in that in that hospital.

And yet and there's another piece of that,

Because weeks before I was going to me,

I just need I need everybody to just leave me alone.

I need a weekend where I'm just by myself like.

No demands on me,

Nothing happening.

Well,

You've got to be careful what you ask for,

Because that's exactly what happened.

And I walking down the hall at one point screaming,

You can't keep me here.

I'm an American citizen.

And it was I was really acting crazy.

And if that had not happened,

I think that that moment of needing to let go and trust would not have ever happened to me.

If it had,

It might have been a much harder lesson.

And let me tell you,

That was a hard lesson,

Though it was one I needed.

And it is one that has stuck.

So you can hear the same lesson over and over and over.

And it's going to sound different to everybody.

And finally,

One of us is going to hear it.

You're either going to hear it through a book or somebody is going to say something or God will write on glass in a window through somebody who was writing,

Probably just telling themselves where they were five years ago,

Five days ago,

Whatever.

And yet there it was.

There's some patient that had left that spot some day before that wrote,

I'm here and would never have known and never will know that I needed it at that moment.

I am sure that God or the divine or however any,

But the universe,

However anybody chooses to see it,

I believe that that message would have made it to me somehow.

And I also believe the longer I resist the message,

The harder it hits me later and the harder the situation is.

There's been times when I know I've needed to rest and I fell down and broke my leg at one point.

And I know that it was God saying,

Look,

You're doing too much.

You need to sit down before you have a heart attack.

And I'm still with no,

No,

I can do this.

I can do this.

And God's like,

Fine,

You get the stomach flu.

Have fun.

And a broken leg with a stomach flu is not a good time.

And that's where I finally quit the class that was rough on me that I was just taking just because I could and quit some of the hundreds of committees I was on and said,

Look,

I need to sit and rest because clearly I wasn't getting it before.

And my limits,

I can understand the limits of broken leg plus stomach flu.

And somehow I couldn't understand 500 committees plus class plus work.

And so the messages get there.

It's just how much am I willing to go,

Ah,

I believe I will take this message as opposed to wait for the rougher one.

And unfortunately,

Sometimes you understand how you could have avoided that suffering if you would listen to the nod you heard before and went,

No,

That doesn't apply to me.

Like earlier when my friend had said,

You know,

She looked at me,

She says,

Remember how you were complaining?

You just needed one damn weekend off.

Well,

You could have chose to just close your calendar,

Selena.

You didn't need to end up in the hospital.

Like,

Oh,

You're right.

I mean,

At least you can manifest things if you want them.

Yes,

I have been proven to manifest.

Sometimes it's cool,

Like manifesting walk in reservation with no reservation into the Blue Bayou in Disneyland.

My friend and I managed to get to Disneyland two days before it closed.

That's the restaurant that the Pirates of the Caribbean ride goes past.

And it's really cool.

And it's Cajuns.

Marvelous.

And we didn't think we'd get them like,

No,

We're getting in.

We're going.

And my friend couldn't believe it.

She's like,

How the hell did you do that?

I said,

It's manifestation,

Baby.

You just got to be careful about what you ask for.

Like,

Do not,

This is free advice.

Do not ever pray for patience because the divine doesn't just teach you here's what patience is.

It teaches you here's a bunch of shit that you need to learn and practice patience on.

So,

Yeah,

That's free advice.

I started Seminary because it was my thirty third birthday.

I said this year I'm going to do something big.

And I thought that meant a party.

And instead what it meant was as I applied for Seminary and I still couldn't tell you exactly how that happened.

And several almost actually,

No,

It was pretty close to immediately.

Some stuff turned up with my church and I understood completely that it was not my calling to become a Presbyterian minister of Word and Sacrament.

That was not what God had planned.

And I kept going,

OK,

Maybe I switch to the Master of Theology.

And I don't know how it happened,

But God was very clear every time I felt like little things.

He's like,

I put you where I want you.

This is your path.

This is your degree.

And who knows why?

It may have been because the MDiv got me the right internship or it took the right classes to meet the people I needed.

Who knows why?

Though my path was made very clear to me and said,

No,

Master of Divinity,

I told you what you're doing.

Get going,

Girl.

And I kept saying,

But I know I'm not a Presbyterian minister of Word and Sacrament because I realized I wasn't Presbyterian.

And God was just clear,

This is where I want you.

Stop complaining.

Move along,

Girl.

And that kind of thing happens a lot.

And I finally am learning to go,

But I don't.

OK,

Fine.

Let go,

Let go,

Let go.

Just do it.

And it turns out correct.

And I don't know where my path is going right now.

I'm headed for a doctorate.

I'm going to start a doctorate.

Hopefully,

I've got to apply to it.

And maybe that's the right path in international relations.

And maybe I'm meant to be a Dr.

Weir.

And who knows where,

Though I know I have faith in the path,

If that makes sense.

Even when the path changes,

I'm like,

Oh,

OK,

We just turned.

Cool.

I can keep going down this path.

That's cool.

I always said I never knew anybody who liked to go for a drive.

That was Uncle Bernie's thing because it was the journey for him.

He trusted.

He had faith.

He passed a week in March into the biggest part of this pandemic.

Death has gotten,

I almost find funerals easier to do than weddings.

I've done every piece of a wedding except actually get married.

So I've sung.

I've arranged flowers.

I've done all of that.

I have never gotten married.

But funerals for me are easy.

And I think it's because of my hospice training and my Stephen Minster training where I just understand grief.

I've had many,

Many,

Many losses in my life.

And the faith is so strong that I will see people again.

And I honestly don't know who's right.

I don't know whose version of heaven is right.

And it's not important for me to know.

I don't feel like I have to know.

I have to be right.

I don't believe in hell.

And I believe we'll all be reunited.

And frankly,

The science part of me goes,

You can't just destroy energy.

So I know those people are there somehow in some form.

And so grief is easier for me because I can walk it in faith.

But weddings are pretty.

They're fun.

Because of the way I'm an interfaith chaplain,

The last wedding I did was a Christian and a Jew.

And that was fun.

I'm like,

Yeah,

I can do that.

Other people can't.

That's another part that's so cool about interfaith.

It's so much fun.

Because I married one of my early weddings was a pair of Catholics who were on their second wedding.

And the Catholic church will not marry a second wedding.

You can't have your second wedding there.

So I do themed weddings too.

Those are fun.

I think the Catholic church has kind of lost track of the fact that how you should be in the world is all about love.

I agree.

Yeah.

And that's actually true for a lot of the faith traditions,

A lot of them.

And I think what happens is men get tangled in the politics.

And one thing I love about the current pope,

He finally went,

Look,

Churches.

If you guys are Catholic churches and you aren't working with the poor and working with nonprofits,

Then you're not a tax-free organization.

Get rid of your exempt status because you better be doing service or you're like,

The church is not a means for you to make money.

End of discussion.

I'm like,

Get it,

Frances?

That's it exactly.

This has been episode five of Bite-Sized Blessings,

The podcast all about the magic and spirit that surrounds us if only we open our eyes to it.

And whether you choose to listen to our Bite-sized offerings for that five minutes of freedom in your day or the longer interviews,

We're grateful you're here.

I need to thank the Reverend Celina Namoff for sharing her story today,

As well as the creators of the music used,

Plossa Pell,

Alexander Nakarada,

Raphael Crux,

Lilo Sound,

And Sasha End.

For complete attribution,

Please see the Bite-Sized Blessings website at bite-sized-blessings.

Com.

And remember,

That's bite spelled B-Y-T-E.

On the website,

You can find links to other episodes,

As well as the books and music I think will lift and inspire you.

Thank you for listening,

And here's my one request.

Be like Celina and pray well with others.

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