Walk Your Own Path: Radiance Sutras Verse 160

During this session, we discuss Verse 160 of the Insight Verses from the 'Radiance Sutras', a translation of the Vijanana Bhairava Tantra by Lorin Loche. A meditation follows our discussion.

These sessions are recorded every week, and all are welcome.

Transcript

So we are reading from the Radiant Sutras. This is probably my favorite tantric book written by Lauren Roche. It is an interpretation of the Vijnana Bhairava Tantra, A beautiful tantric text generally connected with Kashmir Shaivism, That lineage of tantra. And the goal of the Radiant Sutras, Or the goal of Kashmir Shaivism or tantra, Is to live in this perpetual union of the joy of our divinity and the joy of our individual self. So my individual self is named Katrina Boss. I am 56 years old. I am a woman who lives in Goddridge, Ontario, Canada. I have two children. This individual persona who is in the world living a unique experience. And every single person here has their character that they are playing here on earth. And in no way does tantra say, Let that go. Tantra, It's one of the things that really separates it from classical yoga, Where the goal is transcending the body to experience nirvana. The body is to be left behind in classical yoga. And in many, Many teachings that you get, You don't pay attention to the body and your relationships and all these things. You transcend those things so that you can have full immersion in God. And tantra, One of the things that really sets it aside, Is that tantra says, Do both. Be fully transcendent. Remember who you really are. And love your friends. Love chocolate. Love horseback riding. Be fully in this miracle of an incarnation. But remember who you are as well. But dive into both. So the Radiant Sutras has three parts. The first part they call the banter verses. And this is a conversation between Devi and Bhairava. Devi would be, You could consider her the goddess, And Bhairava the God. Or Devi being the human, And Bhairava being the divine. But to always remember that in tantra, This isn't a leveling thing like God above goddess, Or the divine above the human. It's like the humanness and God having a conversation. But the human self is the physical incarnation of God. They are the same. They talk about their being Shiva-Shakti as oneness. And Shiva-Shakti is all things, All the time. And then in order for us to have our individuality, In order for us to experience maya, Duality, Shiva-Shakti separates. But they are the same. They are the same essence. But it's almost like one simply manifests as physical, And one manifests as, Or one remains energy. The physical also manifests in a seemingly limited form. I am not all of you people. We are all individual people. So the physical self has to have some built-in limitation. But in its essence, It is everything. And so the conversation is really between this limited version of the divine with the divine. But the divine isn't above the limited version of the divine. They're the same thing. It's just a slightly different version. And every single one of us is a slightly different version of that limited example or sample of the divine. And so this conversation is between the human form and the divine form, Kind of trying to understand. And so Devi asks these questions like, What is this world all about? I don't understand. I don't understand how to worship. I don't understand how I'm supposed to be here. Am I supposed to have attachment or non-attachment, Or how is this meant to work? Dogs and animals too, And plants? No, No, No. In tantra, Every single thing that we can see is the divine. But one of the teachings of the radiant sutras is that the same elements that make me up, Make up the tree, And make up a dog, And make up the mountain, And make up the ocean. So in a deep fundamental level, We are all the same. And one of the meditations in this sutra, Actually there's probably about four meditations in this book, Talk about that. Like walking down the street and recognizing that every single thing that you can see and feel and touch and taste and hear is all the same manifestation of self. You are surrounded by the divine in a million forms. So in that way, Everything is to the divine incarnate. This dance of consciousness between the human and the divine feels very human to me. I'm not sure that elephants have the same journey that the human takes, But I don't actually know anything about the inner consciousness of an elephant. So maybe all we can do is look at the human because it's the only experience we can have. So I don't know. That's a great question. So the first part of the book is called the Banter Verses. And this is the beginning discussion that kind of lays the groundwork for the rest of the teachings. And then they have the Yukti Verses, Which is 112 meditations, Contemplations, Practices that you can do to help transform you. To actually, It isn't just knowledge, It's things that you can do that change you. So even as we just said, Imagine your meditation that you really feel resonant with is to walk down the street and consciously recognize that every single thing you see is made up of divine stuff. Earth, Air, Wind, Fire, Water, And that includes cars, Buildings, Trees, Other people, The sky, The grass, The snow, Everything. And to take time and really let that sink in. And of course, This experience doesn't sink into your mind. It sinks into your being. It changes your cells. Your cells start to feel one with the trees. Your cells start to feel one with the squirrel and the building because everything is made of the same divine stuff. This changes us. So then all of a sudden, When something difficult happens in our life, Our cells know that every single person or issue that we are struggling with right now is made of divine stuff. But this is a cellular knowledge. This isn't in our brains. This is something that is inside and that's why the practice is so important. So let's say for example, You went out and you did that contemplation once. And you went for a walk and you were like, Oh yeah, I get it, You know, Whatever. But let's say you did it every day for a month. Every day, I'm going to take a new path. I'm going to deeply feel the earth inside of me and the earth in that tree, The water inside of me and the water of the ocean, The fire inside of me and the fire in the sun. And you know what I mean? Like you're actually going to do this every day for a month. Can you imagine how different we would be? Like imagine how that would transform how we experience life, How much more we would enjoy the simple things of hugging someone you love, You know, Or eating food or making love or spending time with family and friends or learning something new or whatever. It changes us. So that's what the 112 teachings are, The 112 Yukti verses. And then after that, There are a series of sutras that are called the Insight Verses and that's where we are now. In fact, Today we are working on 160 and there are only two more left, Which we will do next week together. And so at this point, It's almost assumed that you've already gone through the whole book. But of course, It's okay if you haven't. If you're new today or today is the first time you're listening to this talk, It's okay because these Insight Verses apply to all spiritual paths. You know, They certainly apply to this particular tantric path, But they, You know, If you're here today, Then you are already on some kind of spiritual journey. And so these teachings apply to you too. All right, You guys ready? Let's close our eyes. Let's just breathe deeply. And I'd like you to become aware of your physical self, Your persona, Your body, Your personality, The things you own, The things you surround yourself with. And then go within and find the place inside of you that never changes, That was the same when you were six years old, As it is today, As it will be decades from now. Your eternal self, The self that is constant, Even as your body changes and your circumstance change. Just tap into that quiet stillness inside. Friends, Relatives, Neighbors, People who abide in your village, City, And country, Be not concerned with their attitudes towards these teachings. Everyone is discovering the intimate universe in their own way. This nectar is here within every breath, Every desire, Every transition from waking to sleeping and sleeping to waking. Once you have set out on the path of intimacy with the immortal essence of life, Never turn your back on it, My shining one. Never turn away. Though every moment be surprising, Revelatory, Unrecognizable, And full of wonder, Continue to cherish each breath. Live in gratitude for the ambrosia we imbibe in each turning out-breath to in-breath into out-breath. What comes to you when you hear that? What emotions rise? What thoughts come into your mind? What phrases sort of play in your mind? Beautiful smile arises. Gratitude for the miracle of life. Joy, Comforting. Kind of like being drunk on the exquisite elixir of life. Acceptance, Allowing. Living in gratitude one breath at a time. Joy of being. I feel whole, Like a full circle return. It's awesome. The journey is within us. Life, Releasing judgment for love. Ambrosia, Food of the gods. We are loved and are love. Honest for this beautiful essence of life. First time here, Just arrived. What's the source of the reading? Can you write it in the chat? Sure. I'll show you it too. The Radiant Sutras. Honor our unique experience. Yes. So we're also going to read a literal translation of the Sanskrit. Now, Lauren has done some, The author of this book, Has done some really interesting interpretation of these sutras. Which I appreciate so much. Because the original Sanskrit is different. And so I would like to read that to you. And we're going to discuss the original Sanskrit. And I sense that you may join me in understanding why Lauren phrased this the way he did. So the context of this teaching is actually, They're trying to talk about, They're talking about who you should share the teachings with. And I'm going to read the literal translation of the context of this. So the last few sutras before this, This is what they were. And this is the literal translation. Oh, Goddess, I have explained to you this teaching which leads to the highest immortal state. This should never be revealed to any and everyone, Particularly those pupils who belong to another tradition, Who are mischievous, Cruel, And wanting in devotion to their spiritual teachers. So this is a sutra that we studied a couple weeks ago, And we went into deep, We did a deep dive into those. So you can go back to number 157 and 158. Those are the sutras that we, And we dove into those in a lot of depth. The next one, Which we also did last week, Is verse 159. And this is what it says. Literally, On the contrary, This teaching should be imparted without the least hesitation to those whose minds are free from oscillating opinions, To magnanimous ones, And to those who are devoted to the line of spiritual teachers. So that's important, That's important for this sutra, Because the sutras, These sutras are kind of all part of one, But they're also worth diving into individually. So this particular sutra, 160, Is this one. Oh, Gazellied one, Renouncing all of these, One's village, Kingdom, City, And country, Son, Daughter, And family should lay hold of this teaching. What is the good of the above effervescent things? This is the lasting treasure. So what he's saying is you have to let go of these things. I'm going to read you one other literal translation that's just a little bit easier to understand. Those devotees of the guru who are without slightest doubt or hesitation, Oh gazellied one, Having renounced son, Wife, Relatives, Home, Village, Kingdom, And country, Should be accepted for initiation. The worldly accoutrements are all temporary, Oh goddess, But this supreme wealth is everlasting. Oh, That's very different than what Lauren wrote. And yet, It's not. So there's two big parts of this that are really important that I want to really look at. One, That we always want to share what we know with anyone who's asking. Anyone who is absolutely clear and asking for whatever we know, Of course, We would share it with them. But then they talk about releasing our attachment to government, State, Race, Success, All the temporary things in life. We'll get to the family in a second. Because that's always a touchy one. So when we talked about earlier, You know, How this is my individual self, I am Katrina, I am 56, I am Canadian, I was raised Christian, But at this point, I consider myself spiritual and not religious. We have this, This is who I am. And it's right. It's a good thing. It's a good thing to know who I am. This is a healthy third chakra, Ego understanding of self. But if I want to experience transcendence, Here in this body, In this life, Can I release that persona? Do I have that ability? I don't have to release it forever and not be Katrina anymore. But do I have the ability to release it? Or do I have attachments to that? Can you imagine saying, We might say that, I am Canadian, I am American, I am German, I am Indian, I am Chinese, I am whatever. What if you're not? What if I'm not Canadian? Does it even matter? Does it matter to me that I'm Canadian? And this is the question. This is part of the spiritual journey. What do I have attached to my nationality? Would it matter? Could I just delete that from my persona? Internally, It doesn't matter how it's seen by the world. Internally, Do I have something attached to that? Do I have something attached to the race that I am, That I am Caucasian? Am I attached to that? Is that part of my persona? If I was to let that go, Would I be okay? This is the journey. This is the journey of spirituality, Is to slowly release the attachments. It doesn't change the fact that I was born in Canada. It doesn't change the fact that I was born into a Caucasian body. It doesn't change the fact that I am a woman. It doesn't change the fact that I was born in 1969. But do I care? Does it define me? Or can I let that go? Even more challenging, Let's say that I was Christian, Or Muslim, Or Hindu, Or Buddhist, Or Atheist. Am I attached to that? Am I attached to that? Or can I let that go? Because if I can't let it go, That's the box I live in. That's the limitation of my experience here on Earth. It's inside. And what they talk about, Of course, This is within our culture, Or within a belief system, Where reincarnation is part of it. And whether you believe in reincarnation, It doesn't really matter. But to understand this teaching, Reincarnation is part of it. And so to them, They say, Well, So what? You amass all this wealth. So what? You're born into a white body. So what? You're born into a Christian family. You will die. And then you will be reborn. And you'll just have to redo the whole thing again. And maybe you're reborn into an Oriental body. And maybe I'll be a man. And maybe I will then have to amass the wealth again. All of that just comes and goes, And I'll have a new partner, Or I'll have new children, Or I'll have new friends, And I'll do whatever. And then that will end. And then I will redo it again. And I will be in a different body, And in a different religion, And in a different country. This stuff is completely transient. And again, It doesn't mean don't enjoy it in the incarnation you're in. But can we release it so that we can access the part of us that is eternal and constant? Because this is part of this spiritual journey. If I make $10, 000, That $10, 000 might go here, Or I may spend that money, Or blah, Blah, Blah, Blah. But it doesn't exist in my next life. And it didn't exist in my last life. It's just something I'm playing around with in this particular incarnation. And it will pass, Just like winter will turn into spring and turn into summer. Everything will just keep on turning. But when we do a spiritual practice, Every time we meditate, Every time we have a realization, That turns the dial inside. That turns the dial on our eternal self. That benefit or that growth, We do take into the next life. And this is the understanding within this teaching. And this is where having a spiritual practice, Where we truly do, We are able to see our karmic patterns, We're able to see the things that we get stuck in. This is where it really makes a difference. That meditation, Yoga, Tantra, These are not just physical practices that, Oh, I just have to get my meditation in today. It's not that shallow. It can be that shallow. If it's sort of just, Oh, Well, You know, I'm going to put my timer on, Get my meditation in for the day. Or we sit down and we close our eyes and we release our persona. We release all the things that make us different from everyone else. And we connect in with our eternal self. And we meditate there. We do our yoga kriya from there. Imagine how different that is. And we learn and we grow inside. That's the reason they're saying, You have to let that go. If you want the tantric initiation, That's what this is about. If you truly want to explore the oneness within this life, We have to be able to let that go. And it's not some weird thing you have to do after you've climbed the Himalayas. You can do it right here in your living room. Just close your eyes and imagine yourself released of all of these personas we've attached to ourselves. When I was young, I was a girl guide. And I remember when I was a girl guide, I was part of the Lily of the Valley troop, Because we were all separated into groups based on a flower. Some people were the posies or some people were the roses or whatever. But I was part of Lily of the Valley. And so I had a little crest on my uniform for Lily of the Valley. And I'm still talking about it 50 years later. But can you imagine if later on in life, After I was no longer a girl guide, I was like, Yeah, But you need to understand, I'm part of the Lily of the Valley clan. Like, This is really important. Like for all intents and purposes, That's all our labels are. That at some point I identified as being part of the Lily of the Valley group and girl guides. And this may seem that I'm being light about it. But really, Deep down, None of it matters. Imagine if all of us here right now, We're in the same room. All from different walks of life, Countries from all over the world. And we sat together. And we enjoyed each other's company, Soul family. What's the first thing we would drop? All of that stuff. None of it would separate us. It's so much easier than we think. So let's move on to another part of things that they say we must let go of, Which is annoying. Okay, Ready? Oh, Gazelle-eyed one, Having renounced son, Wife, Relatives, Home, Village, Kingdom and country should be accepted for initiation. So to understand, This was all based on talking to male initiates. So that's why we only, There's no husband here or daughter. But that's okay. We can transpose to a more modern consciousness. What do they mean by renouncing our partners, Children, Family, And neighbors? In no way do they mean not to love them, Or not to be a part of their lives, Or not to take care of them or enjoy them. What they're saying is, Renounce any attachment to them following the same path you're on. Let them have their path. Let them walk the journey they will walk. Because how often do we do this, No matter what our spiritual path is? You know, We've discovered yoga. Everybody should do yoga. I've discovered Buddhism. I've discovered, I don't know, Some great diet that's changed my life. I've discovered Qigong. Everybody should do this. And it's the last thing we should do. Because this is attachment. And this is assuming that we know anything about our loved one's journey. How could we possibly know what's right for them on their path? We have no idea any more than we know what's next on our path. Because when we are truly on a spiritual path, And we truly are making changes inside, We know how hard that is. You could look at me and say, Oh, Well, You do all these crazy things, And you study Tantra, And you talk about this, And you do this, And you do that. But a lot of the things I do are well within my comfort zone. They're well within my giftings. The real challenges are not those things. They are other aspects of my life, Other addictions I may have, Other challenges I may have. But when I truly sit in meditation with those things, Those are harder to change. And when I really go inside, And I truly pray for guidance, Or meditate, Or do Kriyas that help unpack those things, That's a challenge. That's a land of discomfort. The true spiritual path is getting out of our own comfort zone, And being a little bit uncomfortable until we break through. It's such an internal process. We can't live that for our kids, Our partners, Our family. They have to do it in their way, And who knows, Maybe they're better at it than we are. It's a curious arrogance that we can adopt when we've had a realization. And so now imagine for a moment that everyone you love, You don't impose anything that you believe on them, And you 100% love them with the humility of a child. Because you know that you're on your path, And you are forever exploring your path, And tomorrow you may have a realization that might have negated what you said to them yesterday, Because you are forever changing and growing. Can you feel the freedom of that? Of releasing all the attachment to fixing the people around us, Fixing our parents, Our friends, Our kids, Our partners. So now we've been able to release the attachment to all of those things, Release the attachment everything else, And now you can almost feel the room for your soul to expand. Because now you don't have to just love the people you love, You get to love all of humanity. You don't have to just identify with people who were raised in the same culture you were raised in, You can identify with all of humanity. Think how expansive that is, Or feel how expansive it is. And then the final thing that I want to talk about in this sutra is that in the tantric traditions they often talk about an initiation, And how you need to receive an initiation. But what's interesting about that is we very often receive initiations all the time from people around us, From teachers, And all it takes is to be open. All it takes is to just be fully listening with your whole heart, And whatever that teacher is saying, It's almost like listening and being open allows this channel, And the words are not the point. It's almost like you join hearts, And whatever the teacher knows, Or whatever this other person knows, Is transferred energetically into your being. This is what they call like a transmission, But this happens all the time. It doesn't just happen from famous gurus, It happens all the time. When we sit in full communion with another person, And we open our heart, And our mind isn't flitting from one thing to the other, Or full of doubt, Or wondering this, But you're fully present, Your hearts connect. I always laugh that lots of you guys know that back in 1999 I was sick, And I wrote a whole book about my journey where I met my first teacher named Jim. He was the first person I ever truly opened my heart like that to. I was willing to release all that I knew to experience whatever he knew, And I couldn't, I wouldn't have put words to this at the time. In hindsight, I know that's what happened, And what's interesting is sometimes I'm quite sure that even when I'm teaching, I'm pretty sure it's Jim talking, Or all kinds of teachers I've had, I'm not quite sure that it's even me talking, Because that happens when we really deeply connect with someone. And so now, Coming back to this connection to our family and friends even, Because I love loving people. I love spending time with my friends, And my children, And my family, And my partner, And I love that. But what's really interesting is people often ask me if my kids are into yoga, Or my partner, Or my family, And the answer is no. None of them. None of them are into any of the stuff I'm into. But what is interesting is when I wrote my book Tantric Intimacy back in 2017. So Tantric Intimacy, It's about living in Tantric Intimacy with the world and with each other. And my daughter was 17 or 18 at the time, And I had asked her if she would proofread it. I said, I really need some fresh eyes on it, You know. And she looked at me, She says, Mom, I can't give you fresh eyes on this. This is all I've ever known. This is my entire upbringing. But it isn't because I taught Tantra at the dinner table. It's how we live around people. It's how we act around people. It's how we treat people. And when we treat each other, And this is for all of us, When our spiritual practice brings us to a more loving state, When it brings us to a more compassionate state, We treat each other with more compassion. And when we treat each other with more love and compassion and understanding, Our hearts open to each other. And it's like our souls share the gems that we've picked up along the way. It isn't conscious. It isn't in our brain. I can't tell you the individual pieces I have picked up over the years from friends, Partners, Children, Parents, Books I've read, Teachers I've learned from. But when I've been completely open to that person, So much more came in. So again, It's a really interesting thing to allow ourselves our journey. And just to know that you will affect others in ways that you have no idea, Just by your presence. You know, It's easy to talk, It's easy to share stuff you read or stuff we think we think we know. But it's when we really deeply apply it and shift and change, That's how we actually affect the ones we love. So we're going to do a little meditation, And then I'm going to read the original sutra. So let's just close our eyes for a moment. Let's just breathe deeply. Let's just release all thoughts. And just come into our breath, Feeling the in-breath, Turn into the out-breath, Turn into the in-breath, And just really feel your heart center right in the middle of this miraculous movement of spirit or divinity within you. Sarvam etad perityarja grahyam etan murkshkhani kim ebhar asthirir devisthiram param idam danam prana api pradatvya nadeyam paramantram Friends, Relatives, Neighbors, People who abide in your village, City, Country, Be not concerned with their attitudes towards these teachings. Everyone is discovering the intimate universe in their own way. This nectar is here within every breath, Every desire, Every transition, From waking to sleeping and sleeping to waking. Once you have set out on the path of intimacy with the immortal essence of life, Never turn your back on it, My shining one. Never turn away. Though every moment be surprising, Revelatory, Unrecognizable, And full of wonder, Continue to cherish each breath. Live in gratitude for the ambrosia we imbibe in each turning out-breath to in-breath into out-breath. Where does that bring you? Katrina, Do you feel like as you are teaching you are learning and growing also? One hundred percent, Especially the Radiant Sutras. You have no idea the gratitude I have for all of you guys here so that I get to dive so deeply into this. This is probably my core path is exploring this, Remembering this. So every week that we do this is such a great journey for me. The thought that when we are tuning into the self within we are able to enjoy all around us even more. Isn't that wild? We can release the attachment to other people, But what about when they don't have the capacity to release their attachment to us? You know, It's so interesting like that we really can't do anything about it. When I was growing up, I was raised, My grandfather was an Anglican minister, My uncle's a Episcopalian minister, And I have always been a deeply spiritual person. Even as a child, You know, I have journals from when I was a teenager philosophizing about life and God and death. But the Christian church was the only church or the only religion I believed I could understand. You know, It was the only pathway to God, Right? And I studied it endlessly. I studied the Bible, I studied concordant Bibles, I studied the Apocrypha, I studied because I believed this was the only way. And I got very angry. I got very angry at the hypocrisy that I saw in the church, How my grandfather was treated by the political nonsense in the high church. And I got a lot of fury rose in me. And then I married a man who was Christian Reformed, Very fire and brimstone proselytizing church. And I tried to go to the church because his family was very, Very religious. And every week we would go, I would get angrier and angrier because I so disagreed with everything he was saying. And yet I felt compelled that I had to be a part of this or else the marriage would fall apart or something. And I was young, I was only 23, 24. So I had a lot of anger inside of me. And so I had a friend of mine, Who was very, Very, She was a real born again Christian. She really, And we were very good friends. And we still are to this day. And she, If you've ever read my book, What If You Could Skip the Cancer, She's my Christian friend that called me. I got so mad at her. But we would argue endlessly about religion. She was a great debate partner. And she was truly afraid for my soul. And oh, We would battle, Like truly battle to the point that her husband would ban me from the house because she was impossible to live with after I'd been there because she was so upset. And then when I was 29, I got sick. And my journey with Jim took me inside. And he said, He goes, You have to learn how to pray, Which of course pissed me off. And he says, No, You have to learn to ask, You have to learn to listen, Then you have to learn to act. And he says, There's nothing to do with the church. This is you and your connection with the divine. And for you, You will never be happy until you have this direct experience. And that was my real journey with Jim. That was my real journey of my healing, And the crisis and the miracle and the whole thing. And what happened is, And it's very pragmatic. I started asking, Which is hard. And I started listening, Which was hard, Because I swore there were 40 people in my head talking all at the same time. And then I would take action, Which was hard, Because I couldn't explain it to anyone else. And real miracles started happening in my life. Things started changing that I could never have imagined. Everything changed. How I saw the world. I realized that my brain couldn't get me where I wanted to go, That I had to listen to my heart. And when I listened there, Magical things would happen. And my experience of whatever we understand God to be, The divine, Whatever name we give this ethereal energy, Power, Wisdom, It became very real to me, Because I could communicate and listen and be guided. So it wasn't a theory anymore. It was how I lived my life. And so if someone came to me after and tried to sell a religious perspective on me, To me, I would kind of just look at them with this blank look, Because I couldn't fathom what they were trying to sell me. It just didn't even make any sense. It's not even that I didn't have attachment to them. I didn't have any attachment to whatever it was they believed either. And the idea that they would try to convince me of a different way, It just made no sense. And I think it just sort of went across the board that if anybody would look at me and say, Well, You shouldn't think this way, Or you should act this way, I just look at them and be like, I can't even fathom where you're coming from. Like, How would you possibly know that what was right for me? I'm spending a lifetime trying to get to the core root of my soul and divine path. And I have a hard time getting underneath all the personas and teachings and fears and everything. How could you possibly know better? And so, You know, I have zero attachment to what other people might imagine my path should be. Do I care what other people think? Yes. If someone says something to me, I listen. Because you never know when someone has guidance for me, Even if it's something I don't want to hear. Maybe this is the divine channeling through them for me. The weirdest things have come out of people's mouths that I'm pretty sure they don't even remember saying it, Because I'm pretty sure it was just for me. So I'm always listening. I deeply care. If my partner says something and he says, I'm really uncomfortable, Because I had this idea that I found this thing on Facebook. I'm like, Oh, I'm going to do this thing. And the more I talked about it, The more he said, This doesn't feel right to me. I take that seriously. Because I know he really loves me and he doesn't interfere. I may still do it one day. But I'm listening. I'm paying attention. But I'm not attached to it. I don't think he knows more than I do. But there's also sort of a humility that says, I'm not always so clear myself about my path. If I'm actually learning and growing, And I have a new idea, Well, I'll bounce it around, Ask what other people think, Have a conversation about it. Sure, I will. It helps me figure out whether this lands for me or not. So there's really something about really deeply living your path and really taking that journey. It's like training for a marathon. And let's say you're not really a runner. But you decided that, You know what, I'm going to run a marathon. So you do all the work. You eat all the right foods, You study how to train, You get good trainers, You figure it out. And you train for a couple years, Because you're not a natural runner. So you really need to do this gently and easily and safely. And one day, You run that marathon. And you sit down after and you're like, Wow, What a journey. And if you've ever done anything like that, You know that that journey to completing that like couch to marathon journey, There are thousands of dials that turn thousands of moments of effort and realization and learning and inspiration. And you're sitting there in the glow of your marathon. And someone who's not a runner comes up to you and tries to give you advice. And you just sort of look at them like, Like you don't even you don't even know where to start. Just like what? And you don't have to be a jerk about it or get angry about it or anything. It's kind of the same on a spiritual path. You know, When you've really done it, Or you've tried it, You kind of go, I appreciate that that's how you see things. Awesome. It's a great question. Thanks, Guys. We'll see you later.