World Wide Wise Speech 2: Gender | Mindful Q&A #12

In the last Meditation Q & A, Wendy Nash and I talked about wise speech in various modes and contexts but didn’t get around to mentioning much about our always-on-worldwide internet society. In this twelfth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion, we return to wise speech this time in light of today’s instantaneously interconnected and increasingly globalist world.

We also address frivolous and abusive speech as well as wise speech when it comes to women, men, men and women together, and other gender-related stuff including pronouns, confusion, and addressing beings from the heart. And how do we practice and work with this in a meditative context?

Transcript

And today joined once again by Wendy Nash.

Wendy,

How's it going today?

Yeah,

Good.

Greetings from Gubbi Gubbi country in Queensland.

So yeah,

Actually,

We have a big referendum coming up in about two months time called the voice to Parliament.

So very typical.

It's I won't go there because I mean,

We probably don't generally do it.

But what it is,

It's a it's very interesting process because it's about looking at Aboriginal people being advisors to federal parliament about issues that are problematic for them.

So there's a bit about 3% of the population.

And,

And it's just been interesting to see both sides of the campaign.

And it's just interesting because it's called the voice because they feel there is no voice.

So yeah,

That I just think that's quite interesting.

You know what it is and and lies,

A lot of lies that have been shared by the no campaign and miscons in,

You know,

Misrepresentation and and things.

So it's,

It's kind of interesting that that's,

Yeah,

That that's such a big thing.

So that's today.

And that's it.

That's how but I'm good.

Well,

Very cool.

And it's just it's heartening for me that the folks I talked to in Australia,

There seems to be a big push towards giving Yeah,

More.

I don't know,

Involvement,

Voice,

Whatever we want to call it recognition to the native people there.

And in the states,

It seems like it takes some kind of crisis like this pipeline crisis that was I don't even remember when it was to really bring the the native folks of America to the forefront of the public attention.

And it stinks that it takes some kind of crisis for that to happen.

So today we're doing we're picking up a part two of this,

We're calling it worldwide wise speech.

And we talked the you'll have to check part one out if you're interested,

The things that a few housekeeping ends here forgot to mention.

We're talking about the Buddha's kind of guidelines for wise speech.

I think the one I forgot last time was idle chatter.

Here,

I thought,

You know,

Maybe I might mention that I've been picking some,

You know,

Berries around here and foraging.

And then I thought,

Well,

That's kind of idle chatter.

So maybe we can pick back up on that.

But we have to well,

I might as well just address it now.

This is important when we were trying to put people at ease and connect to people with kind of small talk,

And I had to learn kind of small talk.

Now I can get out of hand where that's all people ever talk about,

And they feel nervous,

And they can't feel okay,

Unless they're completely,

You know,

Talking about whatever insignificant,

Pointless thing.

So yeah.

And then the other part is this global part.

Before we get into the gender part of this,

Which was kind of what we titled it,

We'll get into that.

But this global part,

The worldwide wise speech,

And now it's something we almost take for granted,

Being online here,

That this gets blasted out,

Potentially all over the world,

You know.

All it takes is internet connection,

And there really is no separation for communication these days.

And what is the impact that this is having?

You know,

How has it radically changed our lives in 20 years to now where we just kind of take it for granted.

We don't even think about the global interconnectivity.

Here I am in Denmark,

Wendy's in Australia.

And yeah,

So I think I'll throw it over to you to address that,

Wendy.

Yeah,

It's interesting,

Isn't it?

So I was actually just speaking with a client before this,

And he's a marketing specialist.

And we were just,

There's so much hype.

How do you cut through the noise in a noisy society,

Where it's like,

You know,

I've mentioned before,

I'm part of Toastmasters,

And I'm the vice president membership.

What is that?

I'm the membership person.

There isn't sort of a president of membership,

There isn't a subordinate,

It's all about leadership skills,

But you don't have leadership unless you have followers,

You don't have followers unless you influence,

You don't have influence unless you welcome.

So you can be bossy all you like,

But that's not leadership,

That's just being bossy.

So yeah,

But I think in American culture,

Which is very culturally dominant globally,

On the internet as well,

There's this real hype and it's pretty overwhelming.

And how to be sincere,

I mean,

That's that level of hype,

It's just not going to cut it here where I live.

People just be like,

Yeah,

No,

It's ridiculous.

So,

So there is,

So I think there is something about,

And you know,

I'm on LinkedIn,

And so much,

Hey,

I'm really amazing.

And,

And I guess that's idle chatter,

Actually.

And is there,

I can't remember if,

Is there one was,

There's one about being truthful.

Now,

Where do you draw the line with that one?

But I draw the line at,

I can make you your millions.

I draw the line,

Because I think that is BS.

So.

Really good questions here.

Yeah,

This,

This influencer culture,

It's huge now.

You know,

And it won't fly here in Denmark,

Either,

From what I understand,

People are fairly reserved.

And there's this thing called the,

But then there's the other part where it's,

There's something called the tall poppy syndrome,

Where,

You know,

People are afraid to stick out here almost,

Or I don't know about afraid,

But it's very frowned upon to,

To,

To try to shine your light brighter than anyone else.

Now,

I think we,

We know from the heart,

If someone is just naturally shining their light,

And not giving this inauthentic effort to try to,

You know,

Claw their way to the top and do whatever kind of fake things they can to be seen and heard.

But then there's some people that just have this natural light that just comes forth,

And it's almost effortless.

So,

Yeah,

It's,

Again,

It's a balance.

It depends where it's imbalanced in the culture and the times,

I think,

And what's the appropriate remedy?

Yeah.

And then how do we call people out on such ridiculousness?

I mean,

Do we give it any attention?

Do we,

You know,

Do we say anything?

And how can we be kind with that?

And the truth part you're saying about,

It's really interesting,

Right?

What if somebody actually does have,

You know,

Potentially ethical skills to make a decent amount of money?

You know,

But then then people completely blow it off.

But then,

You know,

Then you have all the charlatans that,

You know,

Just flood and trash the whole potentiality of someone that might actually have some legitimacy.

Yeah.

So I guess it's what we're describing here is sincerity.

How sincere are we?

And and I had a friend and he he was from Colorado,

And then he moved to New York,

And he did his undergraduate degree in psychology.

And one of the students,

I don't know whether it was in Colorado,

Or whether it was in New York,

But one of the other students in the class,

You know,

There was a video that that everyone watched.

And this person was just,

Yeah,

Talking about whatever from the South,

And was just talking about,

You know,

This and that.

And,

And she just,

She was from the South.

And she just said,

Oh,

That's just how people talk back home.

And everyone laughed at her.

Because there was this,

I think,

From the North,

From,

You know,

That Texans are kind of country bumpkins or something.

And so,

Yeah,

That that it's a bit like in the olden days,

You know,

People used to,

Oh,

My goodness gracious me,

You know,

This kind of completely appalling racism that I grew up with,

You know,

This is just absolutely standard in my life.

So there is there,

There is a lot of nuance about that.

Where do you go,

In fact,

With all that stuff?

Yeah,

It is.

And,

You know,

Even within that,

You have certain races that are,

I don't know,

Like reclaiming the stereotypes,

Right?

And within their,

Within the demographic,

They'll use these kind of racial slurs,

Like ingest amongst themselves,

You know,

But it's not appropriate for other ones outside to do that,

Although they will allow some outsiders to do the same as well.

So that makes things even more complicated,

Right?

And,

You know,

It's really a challenge.

I like to take this stuff kind of on a case by case basis.

But what you hit the nail on here is the sincerity,

I feel the authenticity,

You know,

How much is it coming from the heart?

Or how much are we behaving like ourselves usually most all the time?

And,

You know,

Yeah,

And then what do we tell people that have just been taught to be fake their entire lives,

To the point where they might not even know how to be authentic or sincere,

You know,

They get rewarded for being fake.

And a lot of people I know,

I've mentioned this before,

Say one thing mean another,

And can act in an entirely different way.

So it really is,

It's a long slog.

I don't know if there's anything else to pick up on this.

And then I don't know of a decent transition to go into,

Well,

Maybe it is,

You know,

This,

We're talking about racial demographics here,

Potentially.

But what about this gender demographic?

I mean,

I've shied away from this for so long,

Because it seems to be continually pushed really hard,

And not only popular media,

Especially in academia,

To the point where I think it might be a little much.

I mean,

Even it's in Buddhist communities,

Too.

And now there's a lot of good things around it.

And there's,

I think,

A lot of things that have room for improvement,

Especially when we get to the part in kind of Buddhist teachings,

Where,

You know,

The less identity,

It's seemingly the better,

Or the less clinging to an identity,

The less identity construction,

As far as I'm getting,

You know,

Because what we tend to identify with,

That kind of becomes who we are,

This being and becoming,

And then this attachment and clinging to these ideas and notions we have about ourselves.

And for me,

I just,

I wonder if there's being put an overemphasis on gender issues right now,

You know,

I just,

It's great that people can explore these things.

And I just think we are so much more than gender labels,

Basically,

You know,

Or,

You know,

I don't know,

I love to hear Wendy's take on this,

Because the last thing I'll say for now is this notion of gender confusion.

I like this notion,

This term gender confusion,

Because there's a lot of things going on where people are confused around this topic.

There is that,

Which is,

I think,

As long as it's inclusive and kind,

It doesn't matter.

And it's sincere,

I think.

And it's not always easy to know.

And I think,

You know,

The dharma,

That's really,

I don't even know myself,

Sometimes when I'm being sincere.

When I'm being blunt,

That's my tendency is to be blunt.

So when am I aggressive?

So it's complicated.

But I wanted to raise a bit of a sticky thing,

Actually.

I was at a dinner party a few years ago.

And my friend invited somebody else over.

So there were three couples,

Essentially.

And she said something like,

Oh,

Yeah,

You know,

Well,

When he said that,

I just smashed,

You know,

I punched him.

So it was domestic violence.

And my partner of the time said,

Yeah,

It's not just men who are domestically violent,

Quick as a flash.

So and I think there is some extra lenience about women expressing themselves in ways which could be considered abusive.

Now that was domestic violence,

You know.

But in the same way,

You know,

If a woman slaps a man across the face,

I had a colleague and she said,

Oh,

Yeah,

You know,

Slap him across the face.

I'm going,

Hey,

That's domestic violence,

You can't do that.

And she's going,

Oh,

No,

It's not domestic violence.

I'm going,

Yeah,

It is domestic violence.

And it's different because I'm a woman.

So and I just thought it was really,

It was really difficult these kind of sort of explorations about what do you do when somebody is behaving in a verbally abusive way,

And pick them up on it.

So a few years ago,

Sort of maybe five years ago,

But yeah,

Probably about five years ago,

I was at my brother's house.

And he,

He's got quite a strong energy.

And I said,

I,

You know,

You're quite an angry person.

And he said,

Well,

I get anger,

Angry.

I'm not angry.

I'm not angry.

And I couldn't convey this.

And he spends a lot of time screaming at his kids.

And well,

Particularly his his son,

His daughter,

Not so much.

And I,

I wanted to raise with him.

And you know,

Like,

You can't speak to a child like that.

You can't speak to anybody like that.

And he Yeah,

And then the next day,

I did say,

I think I think you just saw your son,

He was going on about his son.

And I said,

I think he just wants wants you to stop screaming at him.

And,

But it's difficult,

How do you raise this kind of nuanced situation with somebody who is close to you,

Actually,

You know,

It's,

It's quite complicated.

And I,

I,

You know,

I have friends,

And they're in domestically violent relationships.

And I just go,

Your friend,

You are in a domestically violent relationship,

You know,

Because it's quite on there at the moment.

And two friends of mine that and I,

I sort of point out that this is domestic violence.

And they skirt the issue because who wants to know that or they don't want to,

They don't want to engage with that or their,

Their husbands aren't willing to come come to counseling about it.

So I think that that is a very,

I don't think I have an answer on that.

But I think it's another complexity about why speech,

Whether you speak to somebody who you speak to,

How you speak to them,

Do you have a right to speak to them should you stand up?

And yeah,

It's it and and I think and I was thinking about when I was a young woman,

I just copied what my family said.

And I think I was verbally abusive.

I remember getting to this point when I'd been doing following the Dharma for a while and I went,

Oh,

Actually,

When I'm really anxious,

I'm verbally abusive.

And I told that to somebody else in the Dharma community.

And she said,

Oh,

No,

That's just saying things.

Because that's how you need to say it.

I'm going No,

I think it was anxious.

So I wanted to to sort of put this complexity in about why speech because it's easy to say idle chatter.

That's an easy one.

But what do you do when it's when it's it's a complicated,

Charged area,

And you don't feel comfortable about the dynamics in a relationship?

Let's this is great.

Let's explore this because this is complex terrain.

You know,

I'm the same way when I have this notion that I'm in a hurry,

And I'm behind time.

That's when I can really slip up on how I speak to other people.

Because then I am at the end of my resources a lot of times unless I catch myself.

And so then I will tend to behave in ways that I wouldn't normally behave if I'm pressed for time.

And I want to keep a commitment,

Right?

Sometimes things will slip out the way I'd rather not the energy behind the words is too.

So we talked about this kind of reversal on abuse,

You know,

It's a complex thing.

So if a female is hitting a male in a relationship,

You know,

I think one of the tendencies,

And this is just a thought that the male is hesitant to say anything about it or do anything,

Is because then they will be seen as weak.

You know,

This old kind of maybe misogynistic culture is you can't control your woman.

She's hitting you.

What's wrong with you?

Why can't you?

Why is she doing that to you?

You're allowing that.

And of course,

I just want to say that it's even weaker if a man would hit the woman back and return.

Okay.

Abuse is never okay.

And that goes for females hitting men too,

You know,

What's even worse.

And my feeling is if the man would then return that physical violence,

Even if it's just a slap,

You know,

It's never okay to abuse anyone.

And so,

But then it's like,

Like we're saying,

It's tricky,

You know,

A guy's kind of self-esteem and maybe worth and value and honor,

Respect.

If that gets out,

They just look like they're being a doormat or walked all over,

You know,

What do you do?

I don't have any good answers for this.

You know,

Other men might say,

Well,

Just,

You know,

Just man up and take it.

If she's going to do that,

You know,

I really do not have any solutions for this,

But it points out right now,

It points out good terms too.

It's not just physical abuse.

Okay.

We can probably all agree on that.

If someone's intent to harm,

Well,

Even if you just,

If you inflict physical aggression upon another,

Without them asking for it or wanting it or consenting to it,

And especially when there's ill will or intent to harm,

That's clear and obvious abuse and abusive relationships are never okay.

Do whatever you can to get out of abusive relationship.

If it means,

You know,

Sleeping on friends' couches for a while or what,

I know it's easy for me to say that.

And I know it's not an easy situation,

But there is help out there.

At least pick up and talk to a friend that you can really confide in.

If you can't do that,

Perhaps a counselor,

You know,

This isn't professional advice here that I'm giving.

They're just,

Just some ideas I'm sharing.

Okay.

So then we have,

That's the obvious one.

Verbal abuse is really,

It can be,

You know,

Gray areas.

And I see the danger of this too,

Getting too extreme where people are labeling everything as verbal abuse.

And then some people are hesitant then to even say anything because they might have this fear about offending another.

And so their voice doesn't get heard.

They don't get,

They don't have,

They don't get expressed or they're constantly thinking what I say might be taken the wrong way or be too controversial.

And so when they can actually speak up and add some benefit or just an expression that needs to be seen and heard and met,

Then that gets stifled and suppressed due to this potential culture of,

I don't want to offend anybody,

You know?

So I think that's a really important point when it goes to the other extreme.

I mean,

We've had such horrible speech practices for the longest time about people just,

You know,

Blabbing out racial slurs and,

You know,

Just really horrible,

Harmful things for really no reason.

And now sometimes it's got almost to the other extreme where people are afraid to say anything,

You know,

Express anything.

Now there's emotional abuse too,

You know,

How people will blame other people for the emotions they're having.

And this is another huge gray area,

You know,

How responsible am I for my own emotions and how responsible someone else for my emotions?

There's not,

You know,

I think it's kind of half and half,

You know,

Because we don't live in a vacuum.

But then again,

If someone says something to me,

Even though they want me to take it in a certain way,

They can't control how I take it.

So the responsibility is shared there somewhat from how I receive someone,

What they say.

And then there's even,

You know,

I would say maybe psychic abuse,

You know,

There's,

I don't want to go down the long laundry list,

But there's things like gaslighting,

You know,

All these sophisticated abusive techniques,

Psychological abuse.

It's a huge one too.

So I think we'll leave it at that.

You know,

The father,

I would just,

Other than to say too,

It's important for me to,

Yes,

Don't yell at your kids if you can,

Please don't.

At the same time,

I'm sure it's,

Well,

It can also be a habit,

But it's also,

He's probably at his wit's end.

He probably doesn't have the resource.

It doesn't make it okay,

But I wonder what he's going through.

And I wonder if the approach might be to offer some compassion for him.

And how do we do that?

How do we recognize the pain that he's in at the same time,

You know,

Not being like,

Or not letting him talk to and abuse another like that,

But in another way,

Not step on his parenting journey too.

So there's really no good reason.

I mean,

There's really no good answer or reasons why any of this stuff is going on,

But it happens.

So invite anyone else with any wisdom here to speak up.

And again,

I think it's on a case by case basis.

And it's interesting how other people from the outside come to this and have wildly,

Wildly different views on what's happening and potential responses and advice and suggestions on how to go about this.

Yeah.

And it's interesting how in one environment,

It can be abusive,

But then you,

You go into the parliament.

Now,

I don't know how it is in Denmark.

And I believe the U S is very different.

You have your five minutes of allocation time or something,

And you read some,

You know,

Script or whatever it is that you've prepared,

But it ain't like that in UK or Australian or New Zealand parliament,

You know,

It's rough as guts.

It's called the bear pit in New South Wales.

You know,

It's,

It's pretty horrible.

And,

And a couple of years ago,

People were going,

So how do I tell my five-year-old to not scream at each other when I turn on the television and this is the great illustrious leaders of our land,

You know?

So it's,

It,

It is context dependent and that's the culture in that space.

And it's changing as there are more women in that space.

But yeah,

I think it's,

It's,

It's,

It is complicated.

So yeah,

I,

I think it's,

When do you speak up and say something and when do you not,

And what are the dynamics?

It's so unclear,

Sad,

But true.

So let's talk also about gender.

And I,

I,

I think also that part of my thing about the gender,

Speaking about,

You know,

What gender they,

The pronoun thing.

And I,

I think,

I just don't know anybody.

And so I can't,

I can't connect with that because I grew up with,

Well,

You've got men and women.

And the other day,

There was an art exhibition or a workshop or something that someone had,

And it just talked about they.

Interestingly,

I was reading a book by Stephanie Selassie,

I don't know if you know her.

She's,

She's a really,

Really excellent meditation teacher insight.

Sounds familiar.

The name sounds familiar.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And she wrote a book called You Belong,

Or I Belong,

Or We All Belong,

You Belong.

And,

And she just in that book now,

It might be a few years ago,

And she's changed her perspective,

But she put in there a line,

Which was,

Because of this hyper masculine world we live in,

Where you've got this very,

Very,

What,

You know,

People call toxic masculinity,

Which,

You know,

People don't.

I now call it macho masculinity,

Because I find that the word toxic is not a helpful way.

And the,

And her take on it was that this pronoun change,

The sexuality,

Fluidity,

Was somehow a reaction to this hyper masculinity,

This super macho masculinity.

So since you are a man,

I think it would be really interesting for you to,

To hear about your ideas about masculinity,

As somebody who's not a macho man.

Yeah.

But nonetheless,

Is is straight is a,

You know,

And,

And,

Yeah,

I just want to hear about how do you and and one of those things,

Just going back to speech,

Guys have this thing called don't be that guy.

And women don't have an equivalent,

Which is don't be that gal.

And I think it would be fantastic to have don't be that gal,

Because women say so many horrible things and do so many horrible things.

So yeah,

I'd love to hear what your take on masculinity as it pertains to wise speech.

That's right.

And since the last one we did was Wendy went in depth about kind of the rooms for improvement that some of the feminine have amongst each other.

And yeah,

I want to address the pronoun thing here in a little bit.

But to jump right into this,

You know,

My fiance is a little bit of a feminist.

So I'm challenged from time to time with these,

And it's a lot of good ideas.

And I do feel a lot of this stuff,

It comes out of this,

Maybe hyper masculine,

I like the word macho masculinity,

Because there's toxic feminine and femininity too,

You know,

And I just don't want these,

I want to explore these issues and not use them as reason to divide the genders further than they already are.

You know,

They talk about,

Yeah,

Because men and women are pretty,

They can be pretty divided too.

So I don't want to get into this.

But it's interesting to explore these,

Especially in these current times we have,

And Wendy and I are a little bit maybe old school,

And we still see the value and benefit and just the obviousness of men and women.

I mean,

It's just as plain as day to me.

So we can address the newer ways to look at it,

But we can look at it like this too.

Now,

There was a short time when I was more of a masculine,

Or I would say macho,

I was doing this,

This exercise thing called CrossFit.

And it was an extreme workout.

I mean,

It was I was sore all the time,

There wasn't much rest.

It has a real,

And I was more,

I mean,

Not too bulky,

But I mean,

Just stiff all the time and really kind of puffed up with more muscle mass and whatnot.

And there's nothing wrong in and of itself.

This thing has a tendency called rhabdo.

That's short for some medical term where I guess the muscles can seize up and then never have functionality of them again.

I mean,

It's an extreme workout that like Marines usually do.

So it was a little bit much.

And I did a 180 turned into just yoga and meditation.

So,

But this is the thing.

I look at this stuff now in retrospect,

And I'm sorry,

These,

This bro culture too,

I just I think it's hilarious.

I have to laugh at it because it's a lot of it's so ridiculous.

I mean,

We talk to me,

It's kind of a false empowerment or overcompensating,

Just like somebody talked about this before drives a huge truck,

You know,

Or has a ton of guns,

You know,

Gets puffed up acts certain ways,

You know,

They kind of seem like,

You know,

I get it in the sense that this is this what you feel to you might have felt like you're not being seen or respected or honored.

And so this is making up for it,

Right?

You have to do these things to feel powerful and respected.

That's where I think it's coming from.

But it's almost like a cartoonish version to me to do that,

Because that's not where your true power comes from.

You know,

The true power for me a lot of times comes from how much can I help and contribute,

You know,

How much am I going to stand in my honor and integrity,

Even if it's hardly any,

You know,

Even it's just that intent to do better,

Be a better man.

Now,

The question again,

Wendy,

Remind me on the question that you had here with around this.

Mine was how,

You know,

Okay,

So you made that shift from this very hyper macho space into the yoga thing.

So what was it?

What was it like to be this big guy?

How did you speak?

What how were your relationships with other men with women?

And then when you what made you shift to want to give that up or change things and then move over to this yoga,

You know,

Person?

And then what was that like?

And how did that shift in the way that you spoke to your to yourself,

Others,

Your friends,

Your male friends,

Your family?

What?

Yes.

I'd love to hear that.

Well,

I don't want to I don't think I'm going to say too much.

But because it was an extreme time in my life,

Like,

I had,

I was at my wits end then.

And I think this was a last ditch effort of kind of a protection and empowerment.

So once that all broke down and fell away,

There was kind of a dark transition period.

And then as I started to come out of that,

Then I turned towards more inward and got into meditation.

And then the yoga was just to support that as well.

So it was it was a time of being lost in my life,

Basically.

And,

You know,

Not really having much direction at all.

And kind of a dark night of the soul to after I came out of that,

But it was all for the better.

You know,

I had that experience.

And then I was able to Yeah,

Yeah,

See that kind of for what it was for me anyway.

Now I want to go back to Sorry,

I want to cut you off.

I want to cut you off.

Because I was asking kind of,

We're talking about wise speech.

And I was wondering how when you embodied this very macho space?

What were your conversational?

So at that level,

I was really interested in how did that change when you became more yoga?

Oh,

Sure.

Yeah.

So it was I was not happy with myself in retrospect.

You know,

For one thing,

I was doing this exercise at a gym,

Where it was not,

There was no one else doing it.

So just on the very face of it there,

I was stuck out with a sore thumb.

People were looking at me,

Why are you doing this?

I was running from one room to another in order to like,

I would have to do sprints on the treadmill,

Then I would have to go run back in the other room and like do pull ups.

And so in a certain amount of time,

As many as I could do,

So you're not supposed to run across the gym,

You're not supposed to do this extreme things,

People are in there,

You know,

Just going at their own pace and things like this.

This was full out as much as you could as fast as you could.

And they have special gyms for this apparently.

And that's where I should have been doing that.

So my was a basic disregard for everyone in there and was horrible.

You know,

And I really,

Even though I knew that,

Then I didn't care.

And I pushed through with it anyway.

So that's the kind of headspace that I was in.

It was really pretty reprehensible,

And not considered to anyone.

So I don't think that I could.

Now I don't I don't want it.

That was,

I think,

An anomaly.

I don't want to say that the macho culture acts like that really,

Anyway,

Maybe a little bit of that,

You know,

But that was my taste of that,

You know,

At least in this,

The mantra culture,

They have like a support and a kind of a culture be is how ridiculous it is.

There's some,

You know,

Maybe decent things to,

To,

To,

To,

You know,

Some redeemable qualities,

Perhaps,

You know,

So I was kind of an outlier in this.

And I don't know,

It applied,

And it didn't apply at the same time.

And,

And how did you find that?

So you,

You would be walking down the street,

And you would be have cashiers talk to you,

And you would have just,

You know,

You go to the doctor,

Or just you would have strangers,

You probably had colleagues at the time.

In that way,

Did your physicality kind of change the way that people undersaw you,

And then spoke to you?

I think so,

Because there was this intensity about it,

Right?

I mean,

I have a fairly,

I've been known to have a fairly intensive personality to begin with.

And so when the physicality backs it up,

People can get really intimidated,

Just in one's presence,

You know,

Like that.

And I was fairly,

You talk about the belonging thing.

And that's a really important now.

And I feel,

And I didn't feel like I belonged,

You know,

I look at these pictures as the best man at my brother's wedding,

And I just kind of stuck out like a sore thumb,

You know,

And I really couldn't connect.

And there was not much of a sense of belonging to,

You know,

Before that,

I was in a company culture,

And there was a sense of belonging there.

And once I was out of that,

Then I was just kind of like a lone wolf for a while until I kind of really felt where I could,

You know,

I was so disconnected from myself.

That's the other thing,

Not the external.

I think a lot of this has to do with becoming disconnected from who we really are.

And I think once that's reestablished,

Then we can connect with just about anyone on any situation,

You know,

Even if it's just for 10 minutes with someone.

I think that was the hugest turning point is when I really kind of stripped away all the extraneous,

Extemporaneous,

All the stuff that wasn't necessary,

That was clouding closer to the true nature of who I am,

Who we are.

And once that's reconnected and established with,

Then we can see commonalities or a way to connect with just about anyone,

You know,

Even if it's just from a deep sense of compassion of how I don't know how to interact with someone or how much pain they're in.

And this sense of belonging I feel is really important.

And it's been stressed a lot recently,

And I still think it's very,

Very well to be stressed.

And I really think that it's an internal,

It's an inside job for the most part.

Maybe that part doesn't get as much attention because where do we belong in our own heart?

You know,

That's big.

Now,

We need to say something.

And then I think this pronoun thing definitely deserves some mic time because please.

Yeah,

I thought it was very interesting what you had to say that actually it was when you felt really just somehow the building up of the body,

Chicken and egg helped you feel disconnected from yourself.

And then you felt disconnected from yourself,

And presumably that's what made you build up your body.

I don't know.

Well,

You know,

I don't know.

I don't know how that was,

But I can see where it can be the opposite too.

I see a lot of men could actually get in touch with their body through building.

I just did it in an extreme way that that intent wasn't behind it.

Now,

I think there can be a lot of types of physical exercise that can help men and women become more embodied,

Right?

Bring more awareness to the body.

I was not doing it for that purpose.

I didn't know what I was doing.

It was just more like an extreme state,

And I was acting out extremely,

You know,

Physically.

Now,

So let's jump into the pronouns.

This has got to the point where there's even a preference in Zoom now about your pronoun.

When we go to fill out forms now,

There's a male,

Female,

And sometimes another,

Or sometimes there's a long list of things,

Right?

Now,

This is unheard of,

And I think where this came from is actually came from a decent place from people that were sincere about this,

Meaning that,

You know,

To be more inclusive.

I think that's the good part of this where it came from.

However,

I feel it's also possibly been either hijacked or there's been other intent behind this besides just the wholesome,

Skillful intent of inclusiveness,

Right?

So,

For one thing,

So we kind of agree on that,

But I will just go into maybe some questions here about this practice,

And it's almost like at one point,

I don't think it's as much as this now,

But you were kind of expected to give your personal pronoun preference and expected to really find out about someone else's pronoun and not use the traditional method,

And this is in some groups,

Of saying just he and she,

Right?

You couldn't do,

You had to find out,

You weren't,

Almost it was,

In some circles,

It was not culturally acceptable until you found out their personal pronoun preference to address them any other way other than their name,

I think,

You know,

And I don't know the protocol around this.

To me,

It seems,

I have to laugh a little bit because to me,

What this gets at is this is kind of a self,

Trying to control language,

Trying to control what other people say.

Now,

I get it if someone is,

It has malicious intent to harm someone by their language and to make fun of them using language,

You know,

And deliberately use something that they know they shouldn't use in language to offend someone,

To harm someone,

That's different,

That's not what I'm talking about.

What I'm talking about here is this,

Like a self-censorship,

And certain groups who came up with this trying to control the language,

Trying to tell people what they can and cannot say,

Cannot,

Can and cannot refer to someone as,

And then these requirements of having to fill out,

You know,

To go through all this and to voice these theories,

You know,

In the academic space that,

I get it if it's an elective or someone wants to study it,

Great,

Explore it all we want,

But when it becomes imposed or required on another,

And then people get reprimanded for not following this kind of contrived guideline,

Then I don't know the helpfulness of this,

You know.

What I think it really comes down to,

If I'm one-on-one with someone,

And I'm being disrespectful,

Dishonoring,

And I don't care about what someone,

You know,

Feels or thinks or anything,

And make a total disregard,

That's when it's an issue,

And that's where I think these things can be helpful.

But if someone is really sincere,

Open,

Caring,

And loving,

And respectful,

Then we'll know that,

We'll feel that in our heart,

Hopefully,

Unless we've become so disconnected that we can't tell whether someone is,

You know,

And then we've got the other people who,

You know,

Will have this fake niceness about them,

Where it's actually kind of a harmful intent,

You know,

Just at this,

You know,

I want to,

Yeah,

And then they kind of just use this as a,

What is it,

Like sarcasm almost,

You know,

This false niceness that's actually,

They mean the exact opposite,

You know,

That their intent is just to be really shitty to someone by being fakely nice,

And I don't find that helpful at all.

However,

It's totally okay to be genuinely nice,

There's just genuinely nice people that are kind underneath,

The kind is the rule,

And niceness is just icing on the cake.

It's great,

It feels good,

But when you get this,

You know what it's like,

This fake niceness,

It's crap.

I'm reminded of listening to the radio,

And I could just hear this radio announcer,

He was completely appalling,

And he just said,

Oh and so when does he come out of jail?

And it was just,

Had this malicious,

I'm absolutely laughing at you,

You don't realise that,

And I'm gonna take you for a ride,

Let's just go with this conversation.

So yeah,

I was,

As you were speaking,

I was thinking about race,

You know,

Because when I lived in England,

I have,

I have two passports,

I have a UK passport,

And an,

Or a British passport,

And an Australian passport,

And it happened to be the census that year,

And I had to,

It said,

Are you white,

White British,

White Irish,

White European,

White other,

And I honestly couldn't answer the question,

Because I was going,

Well do you want,

Is it the right hand,

The left hand,

And yeah,

I've just seen,

We have a message,

Do you remember last time,

Ali Saleh Hickey,

He was with us,

So all right,

Here's our little message from Ali,

So thank you very much Ali,

It's lovely to have you.

Is the issue that you don't understand individuals that don't use typical pronouns,

Or that you don't understand when people impose rules onto other people?

So let's answer Ali's question.

Well that,

That's a really good point,

I don't know if I,

I don't know if I don't understand it,

I understand it in the way that I,

They understand it,

So is he,

Ali's getting at the fact,

Now,

So what do you make of that Wendy,

And then by the way,

The other gal who joined us last time was one of my fiancées,

Yeah,

Knew my fiancée,

So okay,

I thought she heard the name sound familiar,

But yeah,

Okay,

So M Reid it was,

Yeah,

Yes,

That's who it was,

So is the issue that you don't understand individuals that you don't use typical pronouns,

Or that you don't understand when people impose rules onto,

So the way that I read that,

Hi M Reid,

No questions yet,

Nice to have you back,

Yes,

Welcome,

Nice to have it here,

I read that is the issue that I don't understand individual,

Understand individuals that don't use typical pronouns,

So am I vaguely offended by the fact that they can't go sticking to one of the two,

Or that I don't understand when people impose rules onto that,

So,

Or that they,

Somebody says a they,

And put that,

Require me to say,

To use that pronoun,

And I'm going to,

Yeah,

So I'm going to say,

I think that I don't understand individuals that don't use typical pronouns,

I'm going to put it out there that I,

I'm a little bit confronted,

You know,

I'm,

I'm born in 1960s,

So it's a long time ago,

And,

And I,

I,

I don't understand,

Because I don't know anyone with that,

And,

And I do feel a bit,

Well,

How come,

Why are you imposing your values of gender fluidity,

Or whatever it is,

And I don't mean to be that offensive,

But,

But,

But I can't remember which,

What the term is,

Whether it's gender fluid,

But,

Or non-binary,

Or something,

And I,

I,

I do find it slightly,

Can't you just be like everybody else,

And play by the same rules,

And then I know where I am,

And I,

I think that I,

Yeah,

So Ali,

So Ali says,

I can help,

So what would you like to say with Ali,

That you,

That will help?

Yes,

And in the meantime,

While they're typing,

I,

I totally get it,

Wendy,

I'm the same way,

The,

The,

And see,

This is where it's almost like an incitement to divide people again,

Right?

Okay,

Well,

They don't respect,

And won't use the way,

Then I don't want to have anything to do with them,

And those,

That's that type of person,

And I don't want to be that type of person.

I want to talk to,

I want to,

On an individual level,

What I'm saying is that actually one thing for me,

It can help me be more mindful in speech.

How many times am I just on autopilot going to say he or she,

So then I can catch myself and say,

Oh,

You know,

And notice that.

However,

What I really feel,

If I'm talking to this individual that really wants to be referred to as they,

And I happen to not say that,

And I say a he or a she,

That if they're sensing in to if I'm being malicious or not,

That I'm being disregarding of their sensitivities,

And or I'm not being respectful to who they are,

Right?

They're not being seen by me,

Okay?

If they pick all that up,

It's different,

But if I'm just using a convention of language,

And they have to do it because it's,

Oh,

You have to hard fast rule by the letter,

Then I see that as a potential challenge in communication,

Because they're not tuning in to the way I'm addressing them,

Right?

It's only by the rulebook,

And,

You know,

It has to be this way or nothing else,

And to me,

That's a dictatorship.

That's an authoritarian viewpoint,

That there's no,

You have to do it this way or else,

That's it.

There's no other option.

To me,

That's a dictator,

And that's an authoritarian type.

I think,

You know,

The only,

I think the only dictator should be is the one that where I am the dictator,

So I by royal decree say that.

So here's Ali has said,

If not man,

Then woman,

If not woman,

Then man.

What about when you are neither?

Well,

I mean,

You have intersex,

I guess I always conflate gender with sex or something,

And okay,

So what if not man,

Then woman,

If not woman,

Then man.

What about when you're neither,

And at times both,

And with others one and another person another?

How would you label this person?

Yeah.

Well,

I don't know.

How would you be a gender?

How would your gender change according to whether you were who you were talking to,

I guess?

Well,

Keep going,

Yeah.

No,

I think I'm just,

I don't,

I think,

I don't think I understand a being.

So M Reid has said a being.

Yeah.

So yeah.

These are really good points,

You know,

It's a case by case basis,

And now we're talking really about a theoretical thing,

Because these are really,

These are fairly rare instances,

Even today.

I know the transgender population,

From what I understand,

Is a very,

Very,

Very small percentage,

You know,

And the amount of media attention it gets compared to how many actual transgender folks there are is way over balanced,

And I'm not saying it shouldn't be that way.

I'm just saying that it is blown way out of proportion in the media compared to what it actually is.

So we're talking about really rare instances,

I feel,

You know,

Even though it's becoming more common,

And in those situations,

I would look at their intent,

You know,

And this is why I said that the word gender confusion is really helpful for me,

Because it is confusing,

You know.

A lot of times the folks,

If,

Now I'm not wanting to speak for them,

But what I,

What I pick up is that,

You know,

It's,

They are exploring their gender and sexuality,

They don't know either.

And so from one day,

They might be one gender,

Another day,

They might be another.

And so this is confusing,

Not only for them,

But for other people.

And I use a little bit of an exaggeration,

Maybe it's not quite that extreme,

Obviously,

Right?

But a lot of times they don't know,

We don't know.

They might present to be one way,

But then want them to do another.

There's this comedy that's called Ghost Super Ego,

Where the folks there,

They do these sketch comedies,

And they have these characters,

And it's a man pretending to be a woman that's getting mistaken for a man.

And it's,

It's pretty funny.

I'm a woman,

You know,

So it's just,

It's,

It's,

You know,

It's,

It's,

It's really tough because I think it's on a case by case basis too.

It all depends how someone presents themselves as well,

Right?

If an individual is wanting to be,

Is presenting themselves as a certain gender,

And then we have the other one that's just obvious,

You know,

There's a physical sex organ.

Okay.

And yeah,

There are really rare instances where people have both physical sex organs.

And then I would say that one's easy.

Whoever,

Whichever trade is most dominant,

However they present themselves as well.

So there's also in,

In kind of more metaphysical circles,

There's something called a law of gender.

I don't want to go into that now because I don't have that.

And even in Abhidhamma teachings,

There's a gender with some,

Is it some of the Chittasikas?

I don't know all the things,

But there's,

There's,

There's a,

Yeah,

There's these,

These type of things.

So,

But when this comes to speech,

Yeah,

We're talking about this in speech.

And then also if,

Before we wrap up here too,

How might we practice with wise speech in formal meditation practice in silence?

You know,

I think one of the things is,

Is how we speak to ourselves internally,

Our internal dialogue,

Our internal speech,

Right?

So Ali has said,

Well,

We,

So I presume that is Ali,

Would,

So,

Well,

We would say that it depends on the inner and not about what is being presented.

Well,

Then again,

That has to be expressed,

Right?

Because I don't know the rich depth complexity of someone's inner world.

They have to communicate it somehow for me to be able to pick up because I'm not fully telepathic yet.

But yes,

I agree that a lot of times people's inner world is being overlooked in their intent.

Yeah.

And,

And so he continues.

And second,

As younger,

Us younger people can kind of sense these things.

So it isn't as complex.

So maybe it's one of those things that because I have all these decades of history of seeing the world in one way.

Sure.

I come with the common consequences of that baggage that somebody who is younger doesn't have so much baggage.

And so doesn't,

It actually is more beginner's mind about it.

I totally agree.

And again,

This comes down to the intent and kindness,

Kindness overrides this all.

So if I go to a situation like this with kindness and openness,

And then we can,

We work out the communication style.

And you know,

There's,

There's not a disrespect,

There's a willingness to be open like Wendy and I are in a seek to understand and be that way.

And at the same time,

Not holding back on our authenticity of this is just how I come to it.

This is how I come to it.

This is my preference.

You know,

I don't need to cling to a preference.

However,

That's just the way it is.

You know,

We all have preferences.

It's just how much we're clinging to them and what's helpful to,

You know,

How,

How helpful is it to cling on to identities when we don't need to?

I think it's very helpful to pick them up,

To look at them and use them in certain situations where there might be benefit for a long term happiness and well being in that of others.

And other times they're not,

They're not helpful in that way.

So we're wrapping up,

We've got one minute left,

But Emery last time was on the treadmill,

I recall.

So I hope the treadmill is going well for you,

And that you are doing what you do.

If that's the case,

Yes,

Continue treading well on the treadmill.

Yeah.

And thank you,

Ali,

For your engagement as well.

And yeah,

The more,

It was good to chat.

It's good to have you online.

It's good to.

So what,

When are we online again?

Did we decide that?

Yeah,

We did.

And it's towards the end of next month.

Now,

We'll jump a little bit ahead here,

October,

November,

Be in the UK,

And there's just too much of a time divide with a schedule living at a monastery compared to Australia.

So it doesn't look like we'll be picking up till the end of November again,

Unless we might have some exception,

We might catch windy out of the blue,

And we can hop on without much announcement.

But for now,

The next one will be,

We have it scheduled anyway,

The plan is September 28.

And at the same time,

So that's 8am,

Central European time.

And what time is it there?

Again,

Wendy,

It's the start time.

It's four o'clock.

So Emery says,

She's doing good on the treadmill.

Oh,

Good.

And I'll make sure I come in at the start next time.

And Ali says,

I think your conclusions will be the future conclusions of some people as they've been mine for a while.

Oh,

Beautiful.

Thanks for sharing that.

Yes.

So final parting words,

Josh,

As we wrap up.

Ah,

Gender well,

You know,

Explore this openly.

And at the same time,

I feel,

Know when it's being overwrought,

Overdone,

Especially in popular media,

And know you're more than gender ideas,

Or what's between your legs,

Too,

Right?

Yeah,

It's kind of a crude way of putting things.

Yeah,

I mean,

It's interesting.

I met somebody on the train.

I was just thinking,

I met somebody on the train once.

And I said,

What's so good about getting older is that my body is no longer public property.

And he was a young guy.

He was a guy,

Not young,

40,

Or something like that.

And I had never occurred to him that a woman's body is actually public property.

He was kind of quite shocked by that.

But it is true.

You know,

We're kind of seen in this way.

So we can pick that up.

We can pick it up another time.

Well,

We don't know what yet what our conversation is.

But we look forward to Emreid and Ali Saleh.

Thank you very much for joining us.

And,

And Emreid is also Ali has given you a message.

And he says,

I would consider them a being a person to at Emreid.

So let's wrap it up there.

Very good.

All right.

May y'all be well and may all beings everywhere realize awakening and be free.

All the peace and love.

Yeah,

Why not?