Trust | Mindful Q&A With Wendy Nash #36

In this thirty-sixth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion we delve into trust: its aspects in and outside of formal meditation and how these interrelate and feed into each other as well as the importance of trust for so many things. To name a few: confidence, courage, openness, honesty, safety, intuition, friendship, ethics, societal functionality and their opposites and spectrums

Trust is relational, experiential, and cultivated through practice – from doctor's stitches to global society. Ends on hope: Deepen self-trust for good reasons.

Transcript

Greetings Presidents, And today I have very intrepid Wendy Nash with me. Wendy, What's going on? Well, Hello. Greetings from Gubbi Gubbi country in Queensland, In Caboolture in Australia. So, Queensland is the skin cancer capital of the world, And I am not immune. So, It's been an interesting journey today. I think we're going to talk about trust. So, I thought that was very interesting. So, I was at the doctor this morning. We had to shift a couple of hours later because my doctor's appointment. And basically, I thought about trust quite a bit because actually I've got this, Well, A, I went and so I'm sort of trusting the doctor in June. I have to get skin cancer checked every day, Every year. And I went to the doctor because I trust that he's going to do a good job because I went to another doctor, Skin doctor clinic, And I just felt they were, That he was, It was a free service, But he was terrible. He didn't seem interested. So, I thought trust is actually having an interest in the other person's wellbeing, Like it already starts to build from there. So, I went in June, And then he said, There's something here. It's probably nothing, But if you start to feel a bit uncomfortable, Just come back and we'll shave it. So, I went, I went, Yeah, No, I want it out. So, He shaved it, And it never really healed. And I thought it was just a pimple, You know, Like something. And then I was at the GP's a couple of weeks ago, And at the doctor, And she said, I think that's a skin cancer. So, I was going, Oh. So, I went up to the hospital because I couldn't get an appointment in time. And I just went, They've got a really good clinic up the road and public hospital. And he said, And she said, No, That's, That's a skin cancer. So, I'm going, Okay. So, I went in and, And they said, Yep, Look, It's probably nothing. It's probably just a biopsy, And that's fine. And then they got the biopsy back and they went, No, That's a skin cancer. And so, He had to, So I've had a couple of procedures since we last met. And so, He had to take out, I hope you're not squeamish. So, He had to take out quite a, Quite a kind of, He was drawing it with his marker, You know, Quite a size and a bit of a line. And then he, And so, He sewed it up and it's actually just here, But this, The stitches go all the way down to here, Which I'm a bit weird about. So, Last Wednesday, That was Wednesday last week, He put the stitches in and everything. And I was a bit, I'm pleased to have it up, But, And I have to trust that he's, He's kind of got it all, You know, And I have to trust that he's going to give me a look at the end, Because this is my face. I'm not a particularly vain person, But nonetheless, I don't want to look like a pirate for the rest of my life. And so, I've got this, So it's this line I'm going, Is this going to be like a permanent line in the middle of my face? And I, I think probably the answer is yes. But on Thursday, I was trying to, I was talking with my, My computer guy, And I said, Oh, Look, I haven't seen you in ages. Can you fix up just this thing? Because it's actually super urgent. And he said, Look, I've just been diagnosed with stage four esophageal cancer. So, I'm going, Okay, I'm going to have to find somebody else about that. So, This idea of trust, And so, This morning, I went to the skin doctor and he took out the stitches, And it actually really hurt, Because of the way the stitches, And I won't go off, Who are squeamish. And, And it was just, It did hurt a little bit, But it's done. And he said, Basically, If, If it had grown any more, He would actually have been a real problem, Because it would have been too close up to the eye, They wouldn't have had enough skin for the stitches. So, I have to, He said, I got everything. So, Clinically, You're safe, You, You got, I got everything. But histologically, It wasn't kind of that edge. And so, That sense of creep out, You know, This Queensland, I was on the way back and, You know, Skin cancers, And I've been hearing skin cancer stories all week, Because I had these stitches on my face, And a bandage, It's like, I also had, You know, Networking events and stuff. And so, There is a so much trust, I have to trust that he's going to do clean stitches, I have to trust that he is skillful in his knowledge, I have to trust that he is diligent and competent. And I have to trust that today's medical capacities actually are going to be good enough. So, Normally, They say, Come back in a year, And this morning, He said, See you in six months. I'm like, Okay. So, This is one thing to go. Yeah, I mean, I don't really want to have a big line in the middle of my face. But I sort of want skin cancer less, You know, You got to make the decision that is the least bad often. And so, I'm going, Okay, Well, That's that. And it's not stage four, Esophageal cancer. So, Trust that's, I said, I would tell you about it when I saw you. And you're like, Oh, Yeah, Something happened to you. So, That's what happened to me. Josh is just hearing this for the first time, Boys and girls. That's right. This is where the rubber meets the road with practice. And for those of you who are not seeing this, And just listening to the audio, Wendy has a bandage near the top of her left eye. Oh, I can't tell what the mirroring, Left or right eye? Right eye. Okay. It's actually the top of the right eye. So, You know, If you think about when you're wearing glasses, And you've got that bridge, The little foot of the glasses, That sits where the frames are. So, It sort of is there, It's where the actual skin cancer is. And then the stitch go down across the cheek. So, If you go directly under the eye, Probably about three centimeters, So it's 10 stitches down the face. So, Apologies for those who are squeamish. It's okay. Yeah, I mean, While you're going through it, I mean, Yeah, It's one thing to be squeamish. It's another thing to actually have to do this, You know. So, Yeah. And so trust, Yeah, We're just admitted here to, Yeah. And I never really, I guess, Framed it in the way you did, Which is a great way to do it, Is that you have kind of this feeling that someone cares, Right? Is that how you framed it? Do it more explicitly again. Yeah, Yeah, It is. You have to be, Trust is, Does have an element that the other person cares about me. Actually, That I've been actually looking a lot, Who's just published a book, And he said that mattering, So not resilience, Not self-esteem, But mattering is what matter, Is what kind of is the core of relationships. So, Does my well-being matter to my doctor? That's the basis of, That's the foundation of trust. So, Do you matter? And do I matter? Do each other matter? This is the foundation of trust, I think. You know, It's really interesting to contemplate it this way. I guess I come at trust a different way. I think of something else a lot. I think of, Is this person trustworthy? Are they full of BS? Are they trying to deceive me? Or, You know, Can I, Are they responsible enough to do what needs to be done? So, It's really interesting. And I don't think that's an invalid, But I think yours goes way more to the core of the issue. You know what I mean? And I think there's, It seems like there's an element of letting go of control too, Because at a certain point when we choose whether we're going to give trust or not, Then at a certain point, Yeah. Because I think, Why do need to trust someone or not? Because there's an element we feel we can't control, I think is one of the things, Right? Yeah. So, That's this, And control's a whole other topic. But that's another thing that comes up when I think about trust. And then we hear about earning someone's trust, Right? And people who kind of misabuse trust. Another, There's so many elements. I'll just throw another one into the pot of soup here, Is honesty, Right? So, If someone is not consistently honest with me, Then I really don't, They have to really then earn my trust. Because, You know, If someone's not being honest and straightforward, Or deliberately so, Then, You know, How can I really trust that person? And I take that back. There's one other thing here. We talk about people that just kind of, Some people just seem to be more trustworthy automatically, And other people are really suspicious, And somebody really has to earn their trust. So, That's another element. So, Plenty of stuff here, I think. Yeah. So, All right. So, We're Q&A meditation. So, Yeah, That's another thing. Let's look at that. So, My sense of what you're saying is that, What you're asking yourself, Whether that person is trustworthy, Whether they are honest, Whether they, At the foundation, There's something about how will they treat me? And that's your question, I think. And so, Does my humanity, My need, My experience, My skin, My care, My health, Matter to the other person enough that they will be honest, Straightforward, Say what needs to be said? So, Mattering isn't just about saying, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Everything's fine. Mattering means saying, Actually, You have a problem here. So, In relationships as well, Like this is a boundary, And boundaries are saying, You matter to me enough that I need to say this is how this relationship needs to be conducted. And that can be a customer business one, Where you need to pay your invoice in time, Or I'm actually going to cease trading, Or, You know, Like, If you're co-founders or something, You know, How do you build that? Yeah, So that, That's where that was. But in terms of meditation, I think that trust, So I have to, I tested the Dharma a long time, With a lot of practice, And I did it, You know, As one of my teachers said, Wendy is a testament to practice, Because I was so angry, And everything, You know, Really horrible, A lot of the time, A five-letter word starting with B was not an uncommon term that people used about me. But I practiced, I practiced, And I practiced, And I applied it, And I applied it, And applied it. And so, The end result was that I tested the theory that the Buddha said, This is what's going to work. And I went, Okay, Give it a go. And does it work? Yes. In a way, The Dharma, I tested the Dharma to see if it worked. Field tested, Kicked the tires. Yes. Exactly. Did you just use it? Did you just use it as a phrase? Oh, No. No, No, The bike tires, You can kick bike tires too, Just. Great, Great, Great. Thank you, Thank you. So, Yeah. Yeah. So, Anyway, I'm rabbiting on. No, It's a really good point. So, When we talk about this, We also talk about self-trust too. That's another huge layer of this. And before I get to that, I just want to throw it out here to kind of a bigger, More spiritual, Wider topic. I was talking more on a personal level, Working individual basis and kind of from almost a ground where, Should I interact with this person or not? There's also the thing where, What if you're a parole officer? Can I trust this person to be in society around? I mean, That's kind of a really extreme example. But when we talk about kind of more spiritual things, Maybe it'll sound a little bit too new agey here, But it's almost something like trusting in, Let's just frame it in Buddhist terminology, Maybe trusting in that things don't happen randomly, That there's an intentionality, Cause and effect, The laws of karma, That it's not like a cosmic justice or something. It's just that there is laws in the work. And even though you can't really prove it with science or math, You can take it on faith and then road test it, Field test it, And see if it works. So in that, There's a kind of a faith that goes along with trust, Trust and faith. There's an old sutra, I'm almost free associating here, I probably am, But trust in mind or faith mind. I was talking about this with somebody the other day, Also on a deep core level, If we can know that things are okay, Meaning that in a way, I guess this comes along with fear too, If we're okay, Especially with things not being okay. So I'm talking here more about equanimity, I think. So the notion that there's certain things that we're going to have to face in life, Old age, Sickness, Death, Self-responsibility and loss. So how do. . . Yeah, I don't know where I'm going with this, But in a sense, Things are out of whack and there's at the same time, To be okay with that and not be overwhelmed and distraught about the way of the world and how things are. And that if I'm fundamentally okay with things, Then there can be a courage and a kind of self-confidence that with the right trainings and teachings and support that we can get through this and we've made it up to this point and we're doing the best we can up to this point. So in that sense, Kind of trust that there's some kind of the order and goodness in the world too. So I'm stumbling in the dark when I'm trying to put words to what I'm saying here, But I think this notion of trust too, And how when some of that is lacking, It can kind of lead to sadness and kind of discouragement. And maybe some people even have distrust with the world. I mean, Some people start with like, Everything sucks, Everybody sucks all the time. Well, That would be a hell realm if it was like that, But sometimes it does feel like that. Other times, Everything seems to be going okay. So I'm going on a little bit here, But I think these are some other things I think of when I think about trust. Okay. So just one thing, M. Reid, 1747, Our regular listener, So lovely to hear from you, Has said, Hi, Josh. Hi, Wendy. We'll listen later today. Busy ATM. So thank you very much. Thank you for checking in. Absolutely. Very cool. Appreciate it. So nice. Okay. So here we go. Here's somebody who, I guess she's part of our little regular thing and how lovely that is. So to me, There's something about the trust in the, She matters to us. There is something here. And I think we were describing there before about somebody who feels very disillusioned and in French, The word is desespoir, You know, To have lost hope, Despair, Desespoir. So that's that word. I think at the foundation, You have lost that there is a trust that others, That you matter to other people. I think that is at the essence of that, What you're describing there and trust from a meditation. And I, And I think that one of the things about meditation is that you, As you meditate and you have time to reflect and your mind goes from being this tight mind into a broader mind, You can see yourself in the context and you can go, Oh, It's me who's being an idiot here. And I can see how actually more things fit together. And it's not that they were against me, Which is, This has been my, My own journey, But that actually, And, And they don't trust me. It's actually that I'm behaving in a way that is, They're not sure how to interact with me and maybe I'm not trustworthy actually. So go back to your other one. So I think there's something about it when you meditate and you meditate regularly and you study the Dharma and the texts that you start to see yourself more clearly and not necessarily positively, But better with more clarity. That allows you to recognize that, To take a broader picture and to become more trustworthy, Because I think in your case before where you're saying, Is this person trustworthy? Are they going to trick me? Whatever, Sincerity. That question actually says that that person's worldview is quite small and tight and it's about them. Whereas I think somebody who you trust instantly is somebody who you have a sense that they have a larger view of their world. There's some experience, Energetic experience you're getting from that. That's what I think. Oh, That's brilliantly put, Wendy. Yes. I think a lot of people that can tune in fairly easy, That's a good gauge if they're mostly self-concerned, Right? That's very narrow. What's in it for me? What can I get out of this all the time? Well, Then that's, Yeah, Compared to someone that has a more broader view. This is where ethical things come. I will mention though that I would disagree a little bit about when you say, Oh, It's me that's being an idiot. I get the notion, But sorry to reframe, And maybe this is too cliche to reframe it this way, But I would just say wisdom is lacking in that moment. You touched on behavior. Now, This is a really important point. When we notice behavior sometimes in others, I think, If I can't put it in a box and I don't understand it, Then I tend to, I don't know what to do with this, Right? So then it turns to, I guess it's not having the trust there, But it's not so much as, This person is a fundamentally untrustworthy individual. It's just that I don't know what to do with this behavior. I haven't seen this flavor. There's something about it that might raise a flag and I don't know what to do with it. So it's not so much that I don't trust it. It's just that my wisdom is not there enough to know what to do with it, How to view it and how to respond to it. You know what I mean? And yeah, And I think this is pros and cons for conformity and behaving in certain ways. So on the upside, Everybody kind of recognizes and they know what to do with it. On the downside, We can have very kind of gray hive mind societal structures. We can have very bland cultures, I think. We can have automatons and people that are very easily controlled. Not that it always goes hand in hand with that, But these are some of the things that I'd like to point out around that point you made. And societal cohesion. So I think, At least in America, These people that still use the paper money, It says, In God we trust, Right? But it is a type of trust because at the end of the day, All those are pictures of dead presidents on a but we all kind of agree, Have a social agreement that we're going to use those pieces of paper and be able to use things with them. So we trust that the other person will honor that obligation. You know, It seems ridiculous to frame it that way because it's just so almost automatic in society, Right? But at the end of the day, That's really what it is. If that trust that the other person isn't going to honor that and use that, Or it's going to be backed by something else or enforced by something else, Then, Yeah. And yeah, If people didn't trust each other, It would be like, I think, Caveman times where it would just be kind of every interaction, Do I have to kill this person or am I going to assault them or, You know, Whatever. I don't want to go any further in that. So there's just, Yeah. And I think we take this for granted sometimes, How kind of civilized, In some senses, The people we meet with, At least on that such a fundamental level, Where we don't have to vet somebody on that level every time because it's just absolute lawlessness like old Westerns in America or something where there's just shootouts every day or, You know. So that line, In God we trust, I believe that only came in in the 50s or the 60s. It's very, Very recent. It wasn't there until, I'm pretty sure it was somebody post-war who was clearly very devout and a president and wanted it in. And it was a president that was there, I think, For four terms, Which is after that they decided, Okay, We've got to make this so nobody can run for more than two. So it was that one. I have a feeling it was that one. Yes. And I know the president you're talking about, I'm blanking on the name now. And this is sad. You know, Here Americans should know more American history than Australian, But it's not a competition. And yeah, It is a really interesting thing to have that in it. People wonder about that quite a bit, These things. And I think we'd have to go into some philosophy to get more into that. So now you've lived in a couple of countries now, In a few different countries, And you've been in Denmark quite a lot. You're back in the US now. And so when you meet somebody you don't know, And you're from a different culture, It doesn't feel like they fit or something. Maybe you give a bit more leeway, Because it doesn't go, Oh, They don't come from here, So I can give them a bit more leeway. So the word outlandish actually comes from outland, So Auslander, Which is a foreigner. So I think there is something about, Is this person trustworthy? And I think racism, Segregation is this idea that comes from contamination. So we had to medically segregate black people from white people because they were more diseased. That's where that whole thing came from. So even though you would give your babies to them, And you would have wet nurses, And like the whole logic of it was completely ludicrous. So you can see how this is completely like stupid idea, Like the whole concept is absolutely daft. But you've lived now in different countries. And so tell me about monasteries in different cultures, And different Buddhist groups, And Denmark, And just how have you experienced trust across different cultures? It's a good question. It's just I would say I'm not really qualified to answer this on a broader scope, Because it is kind of a narrow thing, You know. And I think it seems that xenophobia comes in here too, Instead of racism. Because what I feel, And maybe I could be wrong, And maybe this is just my own view of that. A lot of times it's not so much racist as xenophobia, Meaning that this is something new. I don't know how to behave or respond in this situation. I have no reference point. This is not how I see myself and people I know. And I don't know what's going on here, And I don't know what to do, And what my place is in this. I think that plays a huge role too. Maybe it's just me who's more mentally oriented that sees that. But what you say about giving the benefit of the doubt and being open, And I think that obviously goes both ways. And this is kind of the golden rule, Right? Because that's how I would want other people to treat me too, You know? So there needs to be almost this kind of, Not an unnatural, But out of the ordinary openness, In a sense. For me, I think, Now some people do the opposite, Where they kind of close down and protect themselves. But for me, I kind of, I feel that I, In the opposite, Like I have to open myself up even more than I normally would. And it's not really showing, Oh God, This goes into so much selfing, Right? So, But I think. Yeah, Selfing's great. Like, I'm always like, Because I think if you don't talk about your own experience, I think it's theoretical. And then I think it turns into kind of like, You know, Nice in theory, But where is the practice? Exactly. No, Absolutely. You've got to kind of work with your own practice. That's why it's your experience, Which is central. Sorry about cross-talking, But yeah. No, No, It's great. It's a really good point. That's right. And so it, This is kind of our relative life. And so I went from one point in my life to being like socially awkward and socially anxious to now the other extreme where sometimes I'm so comfortable in certain situations, People are suspicious because they're like, Why is this guy so open and comfortable? He should be able to have a little bit of nervousness and anxiety. You know what I mean? And so, Yeah, I wonder about that myself. It's just because I really think, Look at my, I don't have much of a fear level and courage level, But then I also kind of trust in instincts and intuition. Like if I really said someone is not a good fit for me, Or maybe even might be dangerous, Then I address it right away. I don't shy away from it. And then I will make distance usually most of the time, You know, Right away. So trusting kind of our intuition and BS detector and gauge that and just people that I'm interested in and that. So this is where friendliness is just the meta, Like the translation, Unstoppable friendliness. So people, You know, It seems to repel people that don't have our best interest in mind in a way, You know what I mean? I think it brings out something in the other person as well, You know, If they can sense that kind of, I have the best interest in mind, Or at least friendly and mean no harm whatsoever, It does make it a lot easier compared to in the past when I wasn't keeping, You know, Precepts. And, You know, I think people kind of either unconsciously or in their body can sense whether somebody's, You know, Kind of safe or not, Can be safe around. So as far as like on social levels, Though, I think one of the things that helps is being generally interested in the culture and the person, At least initially, You know, I think everybody almost, As long as I have enough resources and time, Everybody like 10 minutes of our attention. And, You know, To be, I think it's one of my skill sets or strong suits is I can usually find something that I'm interested in, You know, With someone together, At least for like 10 minutes. So I think the more I can try to connect with someone, The better. And as far as now the greater cultures go, I'm just fascinated. You should hear Wendy and I off screen really talk raw and unfiltered about some things in England. And I just, I'm grateful because, Yeah, Wendy's been there. She knows some of the things. So for all the good, Bad, Otherwise, And just quirkiness and all the colorfulness of, I think, English culture, A lot of it's great. A lot of it's frustrating. But it definitely is a good practice for me. And I feel it's a fairly decent spot for the Dhamma. Otherwise I wouldn't keep going back like I have today. And then coming from like a new country, Like in America, Where it's basically an experiment here, You know, It's lots of still weird, Crazy stuff going on, Which is fascinating in its own right sometimes. But then you go to the old world, Like Europe, Where things are very kind of established. And this is how we do things here. This is how it's done. This is how we are. This is how they are. You kind of know where you stand a little bit easier than in America, Where people are kind of jockeying to fit in or make sense of a lot of things. And the whole world is looking at them, Are looking at the states to kind of figure out what the heck is this, What's going on here with this and what, You know. So it's kind of a spectacle in the States sometimes. I mean, That's everywhere. So I don't know, I'm throwing a lot of things at the wall here. Maybe you can help focus me a little bit more. And then I will ask you kind of the same things too, Because you've been way more places than I have and live more places than I have. So I'm fascinated in hearing your response to this too. So just going back to the question, Which is trust and meditation Q&A, Which is how do we understand ourselves in different contexts? How do we understand ourselves according to our identity of nationality? Which is, You know, I'm in the U. S. Now and I've been in the U. K. And, You know, All this is what you're saying. And trusting yourself and that when you're in a new context, Actually can you trust yourself because it makes you aware that the structures around you that create you, Whoever you is, And we know it's not fixed, We become aware of how much you, Me, I, Is in response to the relationship with the culture and other people and expected behaviors. So when you're in another country, At some level you can really let go and you go, I don't care. I'm so not part of that system because those things, But can also become, I found living in England actually extremely lonely because the things that made me, Me, Which is being outgoing and chatty and friendly and emotional and all those things, Are contrary to the cultural landscape of what will people think, Which is a sort of this constant social barrier. And, You know, It's like, Well, You could ask them what they think and they won't tell you, But if you want to know what they think, Just ask them, Which is contrary to the whole English thing where you're supposed to somehow get it by osmosis. This is my experience. It's all done by things. So in terms of trust, And then it's like, And sometimes you've been in, I don't know if you've had this experience, I've been in a relationship where I was kind of nuts. I was like, I wasn't me. And people would say to me at that time, You just weren't you. Or after I, In my separation and divorce from my previous relationship, My marriage, I wasn't you, You, You, You, Who were you? I couldn't. And I, I think we forge these kind of relationships with who I am in our sort of in that context. And in fact, When you undergo therapy, You're changing the nature and the relationality, The way that you relate. And as you say, People can sense that people sense whether you're safe or unsafe, Because you're, You're actually working with that and owning your own pain. And when you own your own pain and your own selfishness, It doesn't fritter out onto the other person, Because the other person just sort of feel like that person's got you in check, You know, They're in check kind of thing. And so you can trust them in that way. So just in terms of, Yeah, So self, No self. And how that's embodied in, Embodied, Yeah, Embodied within the culture is really clear about what is the correct protocol. And who am I and some people find that tremendously liberating. A lot of people come to Australia and go, Ah, It's like so free, In comparison to England. But others come and they go, Oh, It's going to be like this and this and this and this. And actually, They hate it. And they go, Oh, It was awful. I hated Australia. So I'm, You know, I'm no, Like, There's plenty of flaws with Australia. I've lived abroad, I've lived here. I can tell you, I know, Australia's got a ton of problem. And I'm in Queensland, And there's a ton of problem. And I've come, Lived in Sydney, And there's a ton of problem. Like, I know, I'm not sitting starry eyed about all the problems. It just works for me. That's, That's all it means. So I think, You know, Wherever we go, There we are. And, Yeah, So that's just going back to trust. Anyway, I don't know where I'm going. No, No, No. So much of the path is paradox, You know, And I experienced that as well. On one hand, It's so completely liberating, Say, I can just use this as an excuse. Oh, I'm just a dumb American foreigner, You know? And so yeah, Okay, Everybody understands that, Right? So yeah, In a way, It's liberating and free. But then it gets to be like, Okay, What you get into certain social interactions, And okay, How do I play this? You know, How do I behave? You know, Where's my place here? How do I fit in? You know? So this Yeah, So in some sense, You know, In America, That helped me a lot to, To know that what other people think about me is none of my business. But it, You know, I shouldn't say it's a national pastime in England, Because I've come up with a lot of these. But, You know, It Yeah, It's something about that. Now, What what has really put things in perspective, And I think the, The emotional charge of this has been diffused a lot for me, Because I do spend a lot of times in monasteries. So it is kind of like a universal universality that there's, Of course, There's different flavors of the Dhamma, Wherever you move it around the globe, Right. But at the core, There seems to be a common thread, That most people, If they're not on the same page, They're at least interested in that page. And so that kind of gives a common ground, That I think it goes deeper and broader, And is brighter than the kind of worldly overlays and winds that that blow through this. So that I don't know if I could do it without that, Right, It would be completely different. And yeah, I don't know if I would have such a huge support and ground for that. And then when we talk the things that Wendy mentioned to this, It's meditation, It's a great container to see all these things happening, Happening in our relationship to ourselves and the things that are unfolding in ourselves, And how we're holding them, What we're picking up what we can put down, You know, This notion of trust, I think, Goes hand in hand with faith on the path, Right, Faith and confidence to self-trust, Trust in the Buddha and his teachings, You know, In the Dhamma. So and then the trust that we have our teacher, You know, Kind of faith and trust, Confidence goes along with this self-confidence, And in our ability to do the practice, You know. So yeah, These are really, I think, Fundamental when we talk about the five faculties, And wisdom balances that out. If we get, You know, Too imbalanced in any of these, Then they kind of everything gets out of whack. But the kind of wisdom will balance that you can check it with wisdom. And then we have energy and concentration and mindfulness that kind of ties the whole thing together and monitors the whole thing. So yeah, This trust, This confidence, This faith is, I think, Paramount and very important when we go to kind of gauge meditation practice, But also keep it balanced and progressing, You know, So in a healthy way. And by that also, I mean, Not too much clinging and comparing and striving unhelpfully too, So. Yeah, There is something. So a couple of things with the word wisdom, I'm always a bit tricky about the way that people use it, Because often that means it's sort of to do with how much knowledge you've acquired and you have a presence. But what we're talking about here is the capacity to see that everything is interdependent. That's all that wisdom means in this context. That's why I always interpret emptiness and interdependence. Yeah. I would also say, Though, Too, It's kind of the lived experience from real life choices and experience of things that lead away from suffering instead of towards suffering too, You know. So, You know, This, You never thought of that. So it's like, Actually, It's kind of, Yeah, We have information, We have knowledge, But then wisdom, I feel, Is like, It draws on that, But it's not theoretical. It's embodied, I think, Knowing in action and something that can relieve suffering just by knowing it kind of in our own experience and from our heart, You know. That's one way I look also at it as well. Now, I'm going to have to look this up because I don't trust you, You see, That definition. And then gnosis is another thing too. So maybe I'm talking more of gnosis than wisdom. But yes, Yeah, I would love a textbook example of it. It's a good point, Why not, You know. All right. So give me a second. I use the common, Big, Popular AI thing to ask all these questions. I see. I know it's very unethical on multiple levels. No, No, No. But I find it, Yeah, Really handy. So just give me a second. You talk, Josh, While I put it into the chat. I didn't even read the official introduction here, But I'll spare it this time, See if we can get through without it. But I did list some things here like confidence, Courage, And we've talked about that. Openness, Honesty, We've touched on that. Safety, We touched on that too about how that's in trust. And I mentioned intuition. Friendship, We talked about loving kindness and unstoppable friendliness. Ethics, Wendy just touched on that. And societal functionality. And we've also touched on kind of their opposites and the whole spectrum of these two. So yeah, We did cover quite a bit of what I wanted to cover. So I'm glad for that. So what is the definition for wisdom? Okay. All right. So in Sanskrit, In Tibetan, It's prajna. In Pali, It's panya. So it's nothing to do with being clever. So it's not to do with, I think, What you were describing. What it says is wisdom is the direct seeing of things as they truly are. Buddhist wisdom is the clear, Non-conceptual understanding of impermanence, Anicca, Unsatisfactoriness, Dukkha, And non-self, Anatta. It means perceiving that all conditioned phenomena are constantly changing, Inherently unreliable, And lack any independent, Enduring essence. In other words, Wisdom is seeing through the illusion of permanence, Ownership, And separateness. Nothing to do with your embodied experience of, You know, This is the thing and behaving. I was thinking about application of wisdom. So yes, Please go ahead. Okay. All right. Okay. So wisdom is experiential, Not intellectual. You can study the scriptures for decades and not have wisdom. You can be illiterate, And yet through meditation and ethical living, Awaken deep insight. Buddhist wisdom arises when the mind is calm, Ethical, And clear enough to see reality directly without distortion from craving, Aversion, Or ignorance. Wisdom works together with compassion. Panya and karuna, Compassion, Are two wings of the same bird. Wisdom without compassion becomes cold and aloof. Compassion without wisdom becomes sentimental or exhausting. Together, They lead to liberation, Nibbana or nirvana. So wisdom cuts through ignorance, Which is avijja. Ignorance is the root cause of suffering, The mistaken belief that I exist as a separate, Lasting entity who can possess or control reality. Wisdom uproots this delusion. When the mind sees clearly that there is no solid self here, The clinging that causes suffering naturally ceases. Three levels of Buddhist wisdom. The Buddhist texts often describe panya developing in three progressive states. Sutta maya panya, Wisdom born of hearing or studying, Learning the Dharma. Cinta maya panya, Wisdom born of reflection, So reasoning and contemplation. And bhavana maya panya, Wisdom born of meditation, Direct insight through experience. Only the third is considered true, Liberating wisdom. In short, Buddhist wisdom is the direct experiential realization of impermanence, Unsatisfactoriness, And non-self. The clear seeing that dissolves ignorance and ends suffering. Beautiful. Direct experiential, So I got that right. But yes, The three characteristics three characteristics of Dukkha Nithyananda and yes, It is the direct antidote to ignorance or delusion in the sense of the three unwholesome roots, Right? And really the other unwholesome roots can't be there without ignorance or delusion either, Because when there's wisdom, Then it kind of cuts off the chance for greed and ill will to be there. So yeah, It's kind of hard to just have pure ill will without also ignorance too, Right? And same way with greed. So yeah, It is kind of at the root, The core, And that's what wisdom can address. And the big question for me now is how in-depth, Granular, Comprehensive, Full, And complete does our wisdom have to be in order to gain full realization enlightenment? Well, We can see in our own experience that really any amount of wisdom is a huge relief to our suffering. So yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I was just sort of thinking as you were saying, I was thinking about a conversation that I had with my husband yesterday after meditation, And I was recounting a conversation that I had had with somebody in the computer shop because I could no longer get my computer guy to come and fix, And I was asking for somebody else. And I realized that I had been a bit, What's the word? Blamey, Or I can't remember the correct word that I used, But I was, And there are many reasons for that, But I was a bit superior and a bit pushy, And not really, And a bit blamey. And I said to my husband, Well, I see that I do that with you as well, And I actually don't like that about myself. And he went, Yes. So I think that trust comes from recognizing that you too are as fallible as anybody else. And I think that is actually a core feature of trust, That something about we're all in this together, It's not I'm separate from, Something there. And it's, You know, Totally, And it's, It gets muddied sometimes because what you're talking about from what I understand a lot of times, And I, At least I see it in myself, That there's also a seed there of, I care about this, And I want it to be very good. You know, It's just how we go about it and how we do it that, That is the really is, I often neglect that part because I want to kind of jump ahead to saying, Okay, I want this to be good. I want you to be good with it. And I want us all to be competent and on our game and, You know, Doing things skillful and well. Okay. That's, I kind of jumped to the end goal there and I forget how I go about getting there. So that's where the rub is. I'm kind of more goal oriented and principle oriented. And then I kind of forget the heart sometimes, You know, And that's, And if that's, You know, So yeah, We, We all have something. So what do we do? What do we do about that? So we can also acknowledge the more skillful things in that approach, But also be honest, Like Wendy was saying, You know, Okay, You know, That's probably if I was on the other end, If I, You know, If I was in their shoes, How would I like it if they were, You know, Going about it that way, You know? So yeah. So I think there's, It's a mix and a lot of times it's not so simple and straightforward in there. There's a lot of mixed comma or, You know, Light and dark, Skillful, Unskillful. And I think we, Yeah, So we can assess even a bigger picture and give ourselves some slack as well, But also keep our feet to the fire when they need to be to the fire and hold ourself to, You know, Skillful action. And part of that is, Is being kind to ourselves too, And forgiving to ourselves as well, I think. Yeah. Well, To me, It's not about being forgiving to myself. It's about, It's, There's something about seeing that I, I am human in the same way my husband's human. And I too am capable of the same mistakes as everybody else. So there's some, There's some capacity to witness myself in the ways that I witness others as within a context. And I was just thinking about what you were saying about the goal orientation. And just before we jumped online, I was reading an article and it was about actually the role of the Protestant work ethic and Weber's kind of ideas of the Protestant work ethic and how that has been co-opted into capitalism, That my worthiness is only according to my productivity and efficiency. And how that has been, You can sort of hear that in the capitalist framework and how it becomes a hollow experience because we are not looking at the relationship part of it. We are only focused on what's the outcome. And then we become hollow and lonely inside when we are only focused on the outcome because we forget that we too are in this relationship together. And we lose that trust actually. Yeah. Go. It's a really good point. And it further distorts wise effort too, Because then we look at things like this, Like, Why do I want to be like that and waste all my time and energy for something that means nothing and that is pointless? And then the danger is then to become complacent and to not then use wise action and wise effort when it's needed and how it should actually be applied for our welfare and happiness and benefits. So I just wondered why we're riffing on that kind of the misuse of that or the misappropriation of that or whatever. So, Yeah, I really agree with that. And we can, Again, A great way to, I know we've been focused more outwardly, Well, But yes and no, Interrelationally. So this is how we're relating internally with our own internal voice, How we're kind of seeing ourselves and relating to ourselves and even the meditation object itself. And then if we're doing a more object-oriented meditation, If we lose that, How do we relate to ourselves? Do we beat ourselves up? How do we come back to the object? How do we continue the meditation? How do we use this to support our practice and strengthen it in a good way instead of the ways that we were talking about there? So, Yeah. Yeah. So getting back to meditation and trust, There is something about how can you trust yourself or developing a sense of trust in yourself through meditation? Oh, That's a good one. Really good. All right. You go, Rich. You go, Josh. Well, Another thing I want to talk about with confidence is, We look at the, Before I turn it back in, I mentioned this several times before, I was confusing being egotistical with self-confidence, Not the same thing, Obviously. The examples I had around me for being self-confident, They were so super egotistical. And I thought, No wonder I don't have any confidence. I don't want to be like them, But it's not the same thing. So what it can do is you can build trust internally by looking at your practice too and saying, Okay, I can do this. There's benefits to that. For one thing, First, It can let my guard down completely. I'm in a safe space. It's just me. I don't have to perform. I don't have to please anybody. I don't have to live up or accomplish anything. I can just sit here and be a human being, You know? And so allowing things to clear out and then that I don't even have to prove myself, Do anything special at all. And so, Yeah, I think when that falls away, Maybe there's more of a natural sense that, You know, I'm here. I'm doing the best I can. I've made it to this point so far. I've survived everything up to this point. So there's got to be something about that. Reflecting on those we admire, The goodness that we've shown others and the goodness we've shown ourselves too, There's a kind of self-confidence that comes in that, That there is goodness in the world and that there's a benefit from it for myself and others. It's kind of inspiring to, Yeah, To act on. I guess another question to ask here, Why wouldn't I trust myself? You know, Where is the, We can look at it more cataphatic if that's the right term here. It's kind of a religious term of apophatic and cataphatic. This is more of a Christian where you say what God is or what God isn't, Meaning like what is in the way of, Why wouldn't there be trust here, You know? Also what am I trusting in my own experience and what don't I trust? One more theoretical, What would it be like if I couldn't trust like my view of reality and how maddening that would be, You know? And what kind of abilities am I not trusting, You know, That I do have? And can I be okay with where I fall short too? And where can I strengthen weaknesses and where can I celebrate strengths too? I don't know, I threw a lot out there. Hopefully that wasn't too watered down, Convoluted, New age stuff, Some of it. Well what you're describing there, If I've got this, Is how do we trust ourselves and the answer in that one is, Well why don't we? And the reason we don't is because sometimes we're idiots. And I know you're a bit like, You know, You want to turn it into another phrase, But I think sometimes it's good to say, Well I'm a numpty, You know? I didn't behave as my best self. There's no choice about it. It's the behavior, It's the behavior. We've done things that aren't good. Exactly, Exactly. And, You know, And we're all like, I'm skillful, Left, Right, And center. And I think it's okay to say, Oh man, I was a bit daft there. Yeah, Own it. Yeah, Totally own it. And I think there's something nice about being relaxed about that. So when I say I'm an idiot, I'm not just kind of giving myself a whole lot of grief, You know? It's not a sort of a, Oh, Flagellation, Self-flagellation. I'm not doing that at all. It's all just like, Oh, Wow. Okay. It's actually got sincerity in its core. And I think sometimes when we do this switching over into a kind of a Dharma language, If it doesn't feel embodied and owned, It just is fake and we can't trust that. Lipstick on a peg, Lipstick on a peg. Totally there. Totally there. So I think that's that. Hey, Josh, I've just seen the clock. It's one minute before the hour. All right. So what do you want to say before we wrap up? I just left it there because I'm like, Oh, Look at that. The time's gone. Time, Time gets away from us sometimes. So yeah, These are, I think we've covered plenty of ground on this. I'm very satisfied with trusting that we've done an okay job here and that, Yeah, That our trust will continue to grow and that we'll find value in our kind of faith and trust as well. And I think where we even started with this was that we both recognize that this was a big thing going on in society right now, Maybe a lack of trust. And we didn't even touch on that, But I don't even know if it needs touching on because it seems fairly apparent, I guess. But yeah. Why don't you wrap this one up, Wendy, Then? Well, I think there is a sense that no one is keeping an eye out for my welfare. I don't matter because I have become a number in the capitalist who's going through that laborish thing. I am just a dollar value. I am a data point. There is some truth to that and my employment and my housing conditions have deteriorated in this post since, In the last 20, 30, 40 years. That is, I think, True. So I think there is, As a result, Less trust because actually, As an ex-boyfriend said, He said, Well, You don't trust me. And I was telling this to a friend and he said, Well, Yeah, He wasn't trustworthy. So I think it's not surprising that there isn't trust. It's actually that governments have not been behaved in ways that were trustworthy. And so, Yeah, Of course. I'll end it there on that fun note. My favorite saying is, It's a Tibetan slogan, It says, Of the two witnesses, Trust the principal one. And that means only you know when you're kidding yourself and only you know what is the right course of action. No one can do it for you. So on that one, That, To me, Sums up trust 100%. Beautifully put. And I will just leave it there and encourage us all to trust ourselves deeper and deeper and for good reasons, Too. All right. Bye, Everybody. Have a good month. Bye.