Meaning And Purpose | Mindful Q&A With Wendy Nash #35

In this thirty-fifth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion we delve into this question from user “xXHishamXx” we received at the end of last month’s session: “Is There An Objective Purpose In Life?” including relevance to meditation practice.

My short answer is answering it with what the Buddha taught: dukkha and the end of dukkha or suffering and the end of suffering.

We also mention neighborhood apps and community engagement; give existential reflections that include Buddhist principles and personal anecdotes; the role of ego; the importance of community and belonging vs individualism; cultural sensitivity in service (especially regarding indigenous communities); how meditation fosters clarity, kindness, and skillful intentions; we caution against unskillful motivations like revenge or the “drama triangle” while emphasizing relationality, humility, and learning as pathways to meaning.

Transcript

This is the 35th installment of our ongoing series. Wendy, How's it going? Yeah, Good. I didn't realize I was on the air. Sorry, I was late. No, No, No. It's my bad, My bad. No, I think you actually got here before the one-minute mark kicked over. So, Technically, You're not. Okay. Well, That's great. I'm so sorry about that. Very unprofessional of me. Wow. It's called life. Yeah. I was more just. . . Actually, My husband is at home this afternoon. He wasn't feeling so well, So I was just checking in with him and seeing how he's going. We'll do. We'll do. We'll do. Yeah. So, How am I? It's a warm and sunny day today. And I've been going. . . I've been doing this thing every morning, Which is to walk around my neighborhood to report all. . . We have an app on the phone that you can report all the issues. So, I go to the. . . I go to the app and I report where it's broken or not safe for walking. And she gives me a sense of knowing my place more. It's just fantastic. I love it. It's. . . I recommend anybody who feels maybe they don't know their area to just walk around the neighborhood. There you are. That's my. . . That's where I am. And that's how I am. I'm here on Gubbi Gubbi Country in Queensland in Caboolture. How are you, Josh? I'm okay. Since we're on this topic now, When I lived in St. Louis, Missouri, There was this app and I joined it. It was a neighborhood app. And I guess it really depends on what's going on in your neighborhood, Who lives there, What the deal is. But I actually, If I'm sharing here and I remember it, It was these petty messages that I lived in a fairly upscale neighborhood. I lucked out and got an apartment there. I felt kind of out of place. There was these messages like, Oh, I saw somebody walking at night, Basically. You know, Like, Whoa, Okay. You know, Things like my cat, You know, Have you seen my cat? That's understandable. Some other ones were like, Oh, Yeah, There was a suspicious character, You know, Out on the street. And so it seemed like these petty squabbles. But then for some reason, Another thing, I somehow got on a mailing list or spam list. I was getting these alerts from some city in California. And it was saying, Oh, There's been a crime reported three blocks from you. And I'm like, What the hell's going on? There's been a break-in, You know, A 10-minute walk away from where you live. So this is so bizarre. So what I looked into, And it turns out, I think, With this one app, If people's security alarms go off, It would send out an alert to the system, And everybody on this network would get an alert. I guess that's how it works, Which is really strange. So tell me, Just really briefly, What's this? You don't have to name drop the app, But it's basically a social network for actually people who live in your area? Or what is it? Sorry. No, It's a reporting app. So the council uses it, But it's a private app. And you can report broken footpaths, Dirties, Park equipment. Ah, That's actually helpful. Yeah, It's all this sort of stuff. And it just means that what I can do is I go for my 30-minute walk in the morning, And then I just take all these photos. And so I do a few things. One is I get the footpath repaired. And the other one is I get to know my neighborhood. And then I have my community group. So I get to talk about my community group when it arises. So it has a multi-pronged purpose. That's great. So it's actually, Yeah, An improvement thing instead of just a gossip thing, Basically, Or a fear alert thing, Right? Yeah, I wouldn't be in any of that. No, I believe there are. I mean, It's an app that is in the whole of Australia and New Zealand. And I believe there's a similar one in some cities like in Canada or wherever. Got it. This is great. I would think there would be an equivalent in the States. I just haven't heard about it. So the small talk here near Copenhagen, And I was just back from Oslo at a monastery, Is there's a drone sighting. You know, It shut down the airport in both of them a few days ago. And I just tweeted something out. I don't know if it's too early to joke that, You know, I don't think this is the mothership here to pick me up, Because my next partner and I, We've talked publicly about, You know, Quote unquote aliens and whatever. So I don't know. I just thought it was an interesting coincidence, Perhaps. But today we're going to be talking about something a little bit more serious, Actually. So that was maybe a little lighthearted thing to get into this huge, Profound life question. Is there an objective purpose in life? You know, No small question. And I have in this 35th installment of the ongoing series, Live series of Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion. We plan to delve into this question from user X, X Hisham X X. I don't know how to pronounce it. H I S H a M. We received at the end of last month's session. And he does ask, Is there an objective purpose in life? I think verbatim, Including relevance to meditation practice. So, Um, This is the classic question. What came to me early this morning is not take this too seriously. Um, There was a old comic in the sixties. My dad likes to bring up and joke that, You know, Um, Some people ask this professor, Professor, Professor. What does it all mean? What does it all mean? And he goes, It don't mean crap, But he used the, Yeah. So, So, You know, These existential big questions, Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where are we going? Where it's beyond, I think both of our pay grades, If I may speak from where do we come from and where are we going? You know, Hopefully with, Uh, I've had the great fortune to pack practice with some yogis who actually, You know, Can see and know this for themselves, Apparently, Which is just so mind blowing profound. I'm very humbled and grateful to be in the virtual company of such advanced practitioners, But this, This notion that we could deal with every day and all tap into, You know, What is an objective purpose? I'm going to throw it back to Wendy. What do you think? I was actually talking about that. I was actually talking about it yesterday with my partner and I was asking, Am I very egotistical? So, And because I was going, Ah, Am I really like self-inflated and cause I can feel that I get quite single-minded about things. Now, Hang on. How, How does being egotistical or not, Um, Question. Yes. So because I have this community group, I have a lot of drive. So, Um, For me, I was thinking I have a lot of energy when I don't have, I, When I don't know how to focus that energy, I'm no good to anyone. So what having a community group means to me is that it gives me a sense of purpose. Now, Is there an intrinsic meaning to life? You know, Well, I, I think it depends on what you, What you bring to the table. I think, I don't think there is anything. It's like saying, Does an ant have a meaning to life? Like why would we be any different to an ant in that regard or a cockroach or a anything, A rat or a chicken or a horse or a cow? And to me, If there is something that you feel engaged with engaged Dharma, I guess you can apply engaged up. You can use the Dharma principles to create change for, Um, Well, The world to be a bit better. So does that answer the question do you think? Well, You know, This is to me, This is so many, It's multifaceted. There's so many layers from the very practical everyday, You know, Kind of personalized version. And then there's a philosophical thing. And I will just my something, A red flag went off for me, Wendy, When you said I, Unless this I'm no use to anyone, You know, Um, You know, So that I'm like, Okay, Now it might feel that way, But that's, I'm sorry, That's not true. I'm calling BS. That's, That's not true. But yeah, The feelings are if it feel very real and the feelings are real, But it's, It's, I would say that's, That's a load of BS that's, That's false because we don't have to. So I like this, Maybe this is too airy fairy or, Um, You know, Too overly positive. But when I, When I heard a teacher say this, Uh, Something along the lines of, We don't have to, Um, Say, Do, Or be any particular way to have our light shine and be a value and worth in this world. So right there, That's, I think that's where it has to start because I think we're so conditioned. Okay. Conditional. We have to be this in order to be that we have to, These things need to be in place in order for me to be of use or value or get respect and honor or whatever, You know, But what if intrinsically we were, Everything was okay. Just the way it was in some sense. Now, I think that needs to be balanced with, This is where I fall in the Buddhist line for sure, Because, Uh, I will repeat this Nisargadatta Maharaj quote, Which I found so helpful around this. This is an existential question, You know, And so many people like our age are a little bit younger, Maybe go through existential crises. Uh, And it's a huge thing. And he said, And, Um, Life, Um, Wisdom tells me I'm nothing. Love tells me I'm everything between these two, My life flows. And so on one sense we have, Like Wendy pointed out, Kind of brilliantly wisdom. If we just, What makes us any different from anything else from a spec, You know, If you think about a vast universe, It's just in the amount of time where it's just absolutely nothing inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. In a sense, That's, That's the case. Uh, On the other hand, You know, This heart quality, Just think of these, These times in our lives where we've really connected deeply with life and, And purpose and meaning. And we felt so alive and so helpful and so grateful and all the great, Uh, Heart qualities, And that's not invalid either. That's there. So, So I think that's kind of a more, That saying for me, Uh, Practically ties things together. We'll go into some of the other aspects of it here, But I want to see if you have anything to say about this. So I just wanted to sort of follow up on what I said that you called me out was BS. It, What I was meaning by that, I guess I was thinking back to times in my life where I have been maybe unemployed, Having a bad time, I've broken up in a relationship, I've moved countries or, Or whatever. And I found myself very disorientated. So it has not been good for me to be that disorientated. I wasn't saying that the only purpose I have in life is to be productive, But what I was sort of suggesting is that by there's some, There's something about having a purpose, Which harnesses the energy towards something and makes it feel, Gives a sense of richness and depth to my life. Whereas when I feel that I don't have that purpose, It feels very scattered and I feel, I don't feel like I'm at my best self. Yes. I, And I totally agree with this and sorry for coming off a little bit, Uh, Actually really rough and, And, And crude there. Um, You know, Um, That's absolutely right. And I totally agree. We have to have this because then what's the point, You know, There is no really, Uh, There, There's not much point. So this is, I find so vital to have meaning and purpose in life, You know? Um, It's the meaning part. I think, Um, It, It is kind of subjective. Like we ascribe meaning, We assign meaning to thing. And I don't think that's wrong, You know? And, Um, In, In my own life, What I found, You know, On deeper and deeper levels, This is like I said earlier, This is where I align with the Buddhist thing to me, The purpose of this like conditioned reality is to know suffering in order to end it, You know, That, Because to me, The reason I say that is because all the other purposes that I have and meaning that I find, And I do have a lot of other ones and, And feel almost like I have a mission almost. I mean, It sounds like a spiritual cliche, Right? Um, That, That none of that can be enjoyable or be brought about to completion and fullness. If there's not some sense of, Uh, Titrating off of unsatisfactoriness, You know, How can we kind of enjoy it and live to our fullness and completion and exercise our purpose if we're suffering, You know, If there's huge degrees of stress, Like you said, If we're disoriented, If we're having a really rough ride. So to me, This is kind of not only the underlying basis, But also, Uh, The overarching and it goes through or it can go through everything in life, You know? Um, So that, That I, That, Um, That I feel that I'm on board. I've drank in the Buddhist Kool-Aid on that one because I really can't see anything that's of a more meaningful foundational higher, If we want to put it or, You know, Fundamental foundational purpose it in and now, Now meaning, I don't know so much meaning, You know, Um, That's an, That's another thing. And now is this intrinsic? You know, I don't know if that really, Um, Um, Applies to this, Whether it's intrinsic or not, You know? Um, Yeah. What would, What would you say to this? Yeah. I'm funny about sort of, There is a meaning to life because I think it can, It's a bit like, Why aren't you happy? You know, It can, It can be a thing where you need to have purpose. You need, And you see this a lot at the moment, You know, Your purpose, And it's become part of this. I don't know for, I don't know how to describe it. Branding. I've got my purpose and I'm really passionate about my purpose and I have monomission and I want to fix this, But I think for me, It's more at the question level than at the answer level. So is it about, And this is what I was talking about yesterday, I guess, Is it that I'm, I'm inquiring, Is this possible? If I do this, What will be the outcome? If I do that, What will be the outcome? Is this, And I think there's also something really important, You know, Humans are very collaborative and communitarian. And if we remove that, I think we take away the sense of meaning. And I think there is something about our social systems and our social structures, Which have removed the communitarian approach. Now I'm not saying that communities, Which, You know, Like a hundred years ago were better. So I don't have that, You know, Just because we lived in very tight accommodations, We had very structured systems. Were we happier? Oh, I'm not sure. But now there's a lot of anger that's around us in our lives. And I think we were sort of angry then and we're angry now. And I'm not sure that meaning is that, Or yeah, I haven't quite figured that out. I feel like I'm rambling, But something about sitting in there, It's like, How do we be at ease? How do we have meaning? How do we feel we are living our best self? Whether that's whatever the circumstance, I think something there. No, There's a lot there actually. And it reminds me that usually I'm not into this more leftist woke thing all the time of, Oh, I'm so privileged, You know, I've, But in a sense, Even to be able to sit here and talk about something like this, When people just don't have this luxury and opportunity to, To, To reflect and not only just reflect for themselves, But have the time where you can talk to another spiritual friend about these things. So I think that is a great fortune and luxury to be able to have just a few moments, Even to reflect on this. And you brought up the real practical where the rubber meets the road purpose of this. And that's belonging to, You know, Belonging is, I think of just kind of the stories from history and films and stories I've heard from older folks about, You know, The way life used to be and in the community, The community area. And we just look and we kind of have to belong. And I think a lot of people, They just, That was their main purpose is where did they fit in to society, Their community, You know, Their social circles. And that was kind of their sense of belonging and purpose is just to fulfill a role, Fulfill a role in a way or fulfill various roles, You know, Parenting, You know, Child, What do I do in my community? How do people see me? What can I contribute? Where do I fit in here? You know, Where don't I, And this very practical thing. And I would think that occupies, It still does most people's time and takes over in, At least I know in America, A lot of people including me for a long time identified with their work, You know, That's, That was who they were or who they are and their meaning and purpose. And then we get into more relevant or more up-to-date questions. Like what happens when AI replaces a lot of these jobs and that people are thrown out or, You know, So this is a huge question. And I think this is why spiritual practice or one of the reasons why it is so paramount important, Because we have, If we have a bunch of people, You know, They have a great opportunity then I'm not, I'm not advocating for people getting fired and, You know, Society being overtaken by robots and AI, Not, Not the case at all. I'm very, Actually, I would say if I had to be anti-transhumanist, Anti-technocratic, You know, At least to the full extent that some people are pushing for, But it does open up a huge opportunity, Or can for more and more opportunities like this. So, Yeah. You know, I think it's, I think, I think, You know, There is something today about I need to find my purpose. And I'm very, I'm very sus about that. Yeah. You know, And I need to find my, My ideal job. And people have their hobbies, Which they love, And then they get a job in it and then they go, Oh, This is awful. Because now I've lost my hobby, Which I loved, And now I'm working in it, Which just feels like work. It's not very pleasant at all. So there is, I don't know how to describe it. I probably can't articulate it very well, But there is a societal push. I wonder if now that we've stripped away community, You know, And it's all about I want my privacy rather than how can I share my space. Whether we have somehow replaced the communitarian with the sort of self-desire, The selfish desire, For lack of a better word, I must find my purpose, You know, And this idea of I'm not good enough if I don't have my purpose, If I don't belong. Yeah. But how has this got to do with meditation? So. Really good. And it just reminds me of this time when I was joining these kind of metaphysical communities and one of the biggest questions, You know, What's my purpose? How do I find my purpose? You know, And, And you, There is usually, It's sometimes it's a good guideline of people like, You know, What do I do? Well, If you had all the money in the world, You never had to work another day in your life. What would you do? And then do that now or what's stopping you from doing that now? You're right. So we need to look at things like that in a way that's on an individual level. And, But how, How is that, Is that the best thing if everybody was all just self-interested egotistical, You know, And it's like pure capitalist method of, Oh, Everybody will be okay. If we just, You know, Search for the highest value and then interrelate, I can kind of see that, But it doesn't work like that in the real world anyway, You know, In the notion of privacy is really important. I think there needs to be a decent balance between privacy and community. And this is what I like about the Thai forest tradition. I stayed in for most part of the morning. We're doing communal things and we're looking out after each other in, In the, In the, In the space. And then in the afternoon we have time for ourselves or our personal practice. And that could involve more socialization or more community stuff, Or it can be withdrawn and, And go. So it's, It's a nice balance. I feel now what was the other thing you brought up? Oh, About was it commute? Communitarian. Yeah. Okay. Oh, So that, That's what it was. Sorry. The. And as far as, Yeah, It's service to self-service to others. I, I look at this as the intent behind it, Our intent of what we're driving intent is really important to look at in meditation. That's what we do. But as far as being, You know, Offering generosity is really important here to get out of these being overly private, Maybe, Or, You know, Overly individualistic. Generosity is always the best starting point and to a continuance too. So what can I offer? And there's like a relief in that because then I'm not so fixated on me usually when I'm being generous and offering. Right. Unless I'm like, Oh, What, What, What's in it for me? So like Donna is the word in Buddhism. So the other thing is, Yeah. Kindness, You know, Kindness and compassion, The Brahma Viharas, These, I think help get us, Help us relate in a more heart centered, Helpful way for ourselves and others. So these go ahead. Yeah. I was thinking about politicians. So I have a lot to do with politicians and you know, On the outside, I used to be like, Oh, They're all the same. And then you meet them and you go, Oh, It's just you and me. It's just they happen to stand up and they get an enormous amount of abuse, Incredible amounts of abuse. And I happen to be sitting next to the former state premier. So that's the, I don't know what you call that. The governor, I think in the U S I happen to be sitting next to him at a, At a function and, And yeah, He said one of the things, It was a bit of a thing where it was like, Okay, What's something you stopped doing in your business, Except that it was a business function. So I said, Okay, Well, You're not a business person. You're a politician. So I said, What did you have to stop doing? And he said, Watching the comments on social media, Because they were so nasty. I mean, This is what politicians have to deal with and, And just they haven't this, They are, They see themselves as contributing to the betterment of society. And I've met a lot of politicians and a lot of them are, Some of them are incredibly self-centered and I am doing, Offering this to the society. So to me, I like to flip it on its head and say, How much are you receiving from the community? How much are you listening to the community? How much are you engaging with the community? And to me, That's the difference. And I see that with a cup was one particular counselor. He's very much there. And one of my state politicians he's there, But yeah. And I hear from the federal one as well. So I think it's, To me, You can really have an identity about, And now there's this new thing, You know, Who are you serving? I serve and am I in service to, You know, I'm just like, Oh my goodness, Has that one been taken over? So I just think how do we create a sense of, I think it's to do with the capacity to be corrected and the capacity to, To say, It's not about the outcome, But what is the question? What's the question I'm asking here and what I'll give it a go. And if it works great, If it doesn't, And then just to let it go and not take it too personally. But it's not easy when you, You have a really strong desire. I mean, You don't do something like I do, A community group, Unless you have a, You're trying to right a wrong, Which is a self-centered endeavor because I'm like trying to fix this, But it's complicated. It's in the emotional side, Your turn. Exactly. And there's so many great points here and it is really common. I've seen this where these spiritual notions get hijacked and then they get distorted. So a big part of my path is, Is calling out the distortions and trying to minimize the distortions, This openness, You talk about this willingness to receive feedback, You know, And really take it to heart is, I think it vital when one is looking for purpose and meaning, You know, And also be willing to say, Okay, This is enough. I need to pull back because this actually, This hurts. I'm not ready to hear this or consider this. And that's fair to, You know, For some people and constructive feedback. So I think Dana Sarabiku says, If you get feedback, It's great, You know, Because it either tells you something about yourself or the other person, Because a lot of times the feedback we get says more about the person saying it to us than it does about us. So either way, You know, They say feedback from a, One you really respect and admire is worth, Is more valuable than piles of gold because not everybody's going to give you honest and helpful feedback. The helpfulness is the really important thing. And again, I'll bring up, Oh, And it reminded me of this story too that I heard Ram Dass, This huge spiritual figure that one of his followers said, He finally became the person I thought he was at the beginning, But he was known to have a picture of the orange haired man on his altar, You know? So think of the amount of, Not, I'm not defending or anything the guy or whatever, But imagine the abuse that he has to go through. But imagine the abuse he doles out to, I guess, Quote unquote, Or so to speak, Or anyway, It's just a huge mess. It's easier for me just to put it on one side and not look at it. But imagine somebody like Ram Dass, Who's well aware of the challenges of that guy. And he has a picture of him on his altar, You know? So that's kind of a saint in a way, Because just think of people in the spiritual community, Just laying into that guy, You know, Just tear, And maybe rightfully so, But, You know, It's interesting. So the question for us is about purpose and meaning in life. Is there an intrinsic meaning? And I guess, Is there an intrinsic meaning and purpose to our meditation practice? To me, It's about being a kinder person. So I'm just creating less, You know, I've hurt so many people. I just want to do it less often. So that's my goal. And I don't always get it right by any stretch. And you don't know when you're doing the right thing either. So that's, Yeah. All you can do is try and not be tricky or negative, But gee, You know, It's not easy. Yeah, It's not. And this goes, Again, To my thing about intention. You know, Am I being too egotistical? Here, I have this, I want to help, You know? So people, That stops some people because they think, Oh, No, I'm actually just doing this for me. But so to me, This is how I get around this. Am I being egotistical? Am I doing this just for me? Or am I, You know, Being selfless service or whatever? And what's the intent, You know? Deeply know, Am I doing this just for me? I want to help. But for the practical reasons, I think it's honest to say, At least for me, It's a mix of both. And I think that's okay, You know, To be aware of what is the intention for driving my actions. And, You know, If it's selfish, Then what do I need to look at? You know, What do I need to work on? How can I have that operate, Too, And still be generous and helpful? Because if we let that stop us, Then I don't think a lot of good would come in the world, Too, You know? Or a lot of meaning and purpose. So why do we want to find out? I know Wendy doesn't like the why questions, But what's the importance of this, You know? What's the value of this? Where in my heart is maybe there a yearning to figure this out? Can I just be okay with what's like with a purpose and without a purpose? If I feel that I don't have a purpose now, It's just me imagining how life would be if I have a purpose. And to me, This comes back to feeling, Too, You know? Let's say I don't have a purpose or feel I have a purpose or there's a purpose in life. What does that feel like in the heart, You know? And then if I imagine different types of purposes, How does that make me feel? Because a lot of times when we talk of these spiritual notions of the law of attraction, You know, I find that kind of really selfish and egotistical, At least the way it's being used a lot of times, Because we should want something for everybody that we want for ourselves. That's one way to get around it. But we're just after that feeling. So what we can do is we can just feel into once I do that or once I achieve that, Once I offer that, Once I give that, Once I get that, How is that going to make me feel? Because that's kind of at the end of the day what we're wanting anyway. And so we can tap kind of directly into that now and see what that's like. And it might not be accurate, But then I think we can use that as a guide for kind of our thoughts, Orientation, Speech, And action, You know? In one sense, But we can't just do, Oh, It makes me feel good. Well, Heroin might make you feel good, But it's probably not the best thing to do. But, You know, Is this reflecting? Is this like the Buddha offered as advice, I think, To Rahula, Reflecting before, During, And after? Is this thought, Speech, Or action going to be for my long-term happiness and welfare? Or is it not? And if it is, Continue with it. And if it's not, We need to look at that and probably put a kibosh on it, Yeah. So, Mm-hmm? Yeah, So it's interesting. So, You know, Here in Australia, There's a big tier of disadvantage with Aboriginal communities, First Nations people, People from, You know, With First Nations heritage. And I have sort of always wanted to help in that space. And a lot of people don't help in that space because the help that has been offered before has been really cruel and very terrible outcomes. And so what was very interesting is that I was really interested and I was learning more. And then one day an elder caught me out and said, You're being racist. And there was some superiority, There was some assumptions, There was a whole lot of. . . And I just went, Oh, It's so true, Actually, That there was this. . . The poor Aboriginal people, Which is so. . . It's so deeply embedded in the culture at a really unconscious level, We've stolen their land. So there's a lot of guilt that comes with being on sort of stolen land. You've got stolen property you can't give back. So it's complex when you live in a place like Australia or the US, Canada, Because you've got land and you can't give it back, You know. And so there is something that is about being caught out. Now, Ever since that moment, That's been a while now, I've had nothing to do with that, Partly because I think I can't trust myself, But partly because I feel really hurt. And I feel, Like, Offended and I feel I was caught out and I feel all this sort of stuff. So it feels unresolved in many ways and I don't know how to step it through. And so I think it's really common when you are working with supporting communities that you don't put yourself as the helper helping the poor vulnerable. Because I think then you're in the road to hell, Basically, For lack of a better way of describing it. It's not easy and I think it's really easy to fall into that trap as a white person and who's got this whole privilege thing that you've talked to the woke thing. But you don't want people to flounder either and then I have my own kind of sense of pain and at some level I was transferring my pain over to them and all this sort of stuff. So to find a sense of meaning in meditation, I think what meditation does is you have interactions with people and you go, Oh, Yeah, I was not my best self, I was not great and actually I think I need to go back to the drawing board on that one. That humility is so helpful and I will just give kudos to the people I've met from Australia. They seem way more conscious and conscientious and caring and just in a heart and mind level of the native populations. I don't see that as much in America, You know, Not at all. I think that's even maybe more disrespectful. It's just completely oblivious to all that history. Not that we need to carry it on as a burden all the time, But just no recognition. I shouldn't say no recognition, But this is not a thing in the forefront of the mind and I'm so sorry to hear that, Wendy. This is a classic thing. The white male, I'm going to go save Africa. I'm going to go in there and I'm going to tell them how they're doing it wrong and I'm going to have my Superman cape on, Fix everything and I'll just put it on my social media. It's just a ridiculous cliche, Right? And at the same time, You know, There's actually people that have goodness in their heart. They just don't know exactly how the best way to express it and connect and be of service and show that they actually care because deep in your heart of hearts, Wendy, You give a shit. You really care about this and you wanted to help. It's just that there was some kind of. . . And I'm sorry to be maybe more para-political here, But this is where I think the elite and the people with money and power that have a lot of control, Some say that they do this deliberately to divide people. That way they're easier to control, You know, And manage and take advantage of and steer and get resources from. But when we're together as a people, When we connect and can cooperate and get along together and put our differences aside, Find common ground and, You know, Respect each other's way of life and what we can do together and what we can't, Then we're stronger together. And then all these things hidden in the shadows, If there is, Then they don't have as much power. They can't control and dominate and keep people downtrodden as much. But the key is. . . What I keep thinking of is do they have. . . I would love to go to, Actually, A Native American ceremony, Like a sweat lodge. I don't know if they offer that. I hear it's you have to kind of know someone and be invited in a way. But I would really love to do, Like, A sober ceremony, Like a sweat lodge, And just, You know, Be invited and do one of their ceremonies and something like that. And I think attitude and outlook would change significantly, Not just for myself and them, You know, But even beyond that. And I don't know. I wonder if just being open to maybe having a possibility like that happen. I don't know. It sounds like this really hurt deep. But the reason it did is because you care so much, Wendy, I feel, You know? That you actually. . . This really notion of being misunderstood, You know? It's horrible. For me, It's a horrible feeling that I actually go and want to do one thing, And it's being not taken the way I want it to be. But the thing is we can't control how people receive us 100%, You know? We're only responsible for a little bit. Because if I could, I would be glad to control exactly, You know, Control how you take what I say. Then there would be no misunderstanding. I would be perfectly understood all the time. But that's not the case, Too. So I think cutting ourselves some slack sometimes, That we can't control how other people receive us or respond to us or take our words. But we're responsible for what we mean and what our intent behind it is. And then how we respond accordingly. You know, If I just keep saying, Oh, No, I can't control that. I'll just say whatever I want because whatever. No, The results do matter. And we need to take those into our hearts, Too. And as you displayed there, And I feel that, How deeply you care about that and respond to that. So, You know, It seems to me that's your responsibility and your role and you're doing it really well, You know? But I want to just clarify. Yes, At the time I did feel misunderstood. But it's also the case that maybe I was racist. Not overtly. I wasn't saying any bad words or anything like that. But I was coming with a sense of superiority about these poor people. And I also had this slightly voyeuristic idea about they've got these sacred things. Now I just heard something similar there in you about the lodge, The smoking lodge or whatever you call it, And the sweat lodge, That's it. And I go, Yeah, I'm not sure. I don't feel that that's fair. I feel that that's appropriation. I'm just going to call you out. No, It could be. Yeah, That's why we need to be invited. That's right. And you're right. Viewing it like that, That's right. It should just be another modality. It shouldn't be put up on a pedestal. But we're conditioned. All our conditioning to view these things and how we should look at them and respond in our own social circles. So we're under conditioning, Too, On these. And it's good that you're owning all this, Too. It's amazing. That's what we can do. And thank you and hold each other accountable and look for accountability. And that's why it's so important. How do we know if we're being egotistical or not? Well, We have spiritual friends that we can talk to. We have teachers that we can talk to. And why seek out wise people to keep us in check? I think it's really important. Thank you. I mean, I think if you're interested in finding out more about the community, Then it doesn't have this, They've got a thing that I want. So if you're interested in the community, I think go out to the, I mean, Somebody called them the reservation. We're not allowed. We don't use that language anymore. Go out to the community where they're holding their spaces and just hang out there and just do whatever it is, But just hang out there. And then eventually maybe something will happen, But you have to build trust first. And I think there's something about the Western way of doing stuff, Which is, I didn't see any comments, By the way. We do have comments, And I'm so sorry. We'll get to them in a minute. Oh, I didn't even see those. For some reason, I couldn't see that. This is a really good point, Wendy, Because there's this thing at Cahokia Mounds in the States where, Yeah, The Native people are selling things. And so I think this would actually be a decent opportunity to go and ask them, Hey, How can I interact? Because I don't think in the States people can just wander on tribes and say, Hey, I'm here. I want to hang out. Let's be best friends and see what's going on today. No, There's casinos in the States, And then there's these art shows. So you can make connections there and just say, Hey, What do you recommend for someone that wants to, I don't know. But see, It's kind of awkward. Yeah, Yeah. I came to that story. I asked, How do you want to be referred to Indian, Native American? And they basically said, It doesn't matter. It comes from your heart. We can kind of tell if you're being. So it's not so important. Your heart is kind of what matters more, Other than the terminology you use and how you come at it is from what I gathered. But yeah, It's tough. If anybody has any things like that, I would love to hear that. Okay. So let's get to some comments here. Let's get to some comments. So Mrs. Reed is with us, Which is so beautifully lovely. And they've all come through at the same time, Which I think just means that I'm just opening them. So I'll start at the bottom. It's a consciousness that makes the difference. So Wendy, Then there is a sense of purpose to life, And it's so layered as mentioned, Et cetera. There we are. Balance our energy, Truth, Authentic work, Conscious life, Be real with what is, Et cetera. Yep. We ask, What is the point of? And so the thing is that I wanted to get back to, Which I think ties in with all this and what Mrs. Reed is saying there is. And I guess my sort of pullback from your sweat lodge comment was there is something about Western society, Which says we have a right to take something and make it a productive thing. So it's a separate thing that is unrelated to the community, To the experience, To the context of it. And I think you're heading down a really bad road when you do that. It's like if you go to church and you stand on the pews or something, I feel like often we're doing that and we just go, Well, You can't really, We have these things and we'd be horribly offended, But we're so insensitive to other people's. So, Yeah, That's my, I think the relationality and the context is very central. And I would say that's more important than service or purpose and meaning, Because I think in the relationality, In the being with, Then it arises. And I think that we are too utilitarian, Too self-centered to, What am I going to get out of it? Which is what I heard in your sweat lodge thing. Yeah. You know, That's right. Don't want to make it another transactional thing either, You know, And not that anything's wrong with that either. So yeah, I actually, I don't know how to approach that, But I will echo Wendy's thing about you said context relationality. Yeah. And that's where purpose and meaning unfolds anyway. So that's where it's going to happen. You know, That's the space that it happens and that's how it unfolds, Develops anyway. So the other thing that was reflecting on before here is no matter what kind of lack of purpose or purpose we have, You know, Intrinsic, Otherwise, Learning, You know, This is why I think this concept of learning, I think if I may, Almost all cultures have some sense of learning, You know? So no matter what happens in a way, We can't, We can learn something from something, Right? There's education. So I think that just, I think for many of us, It happens naturally, Right? Because that's how we kind of move through the world. Something happens where we get hurt and then we learn from that, Or we meet a wise person and they kind of illuminate it, So to speak, Or point out some of our blind spots. And so that way, Every, No matter where we think we have an official purpose or there's an official meaning, You know, Then that's always there and available too. So we should be, I think, Leading inward and progressing. We still haven't got much to the meditation, But I think it does speak to this. The other thing I wanted to mention is this notion of randomness, But go ahead, Wendy, Before I get into that. Well, You know, What I think, I was just thinking about with relationship with meditation, Is it meaningful? Is there purpose? Well, It is if we give it a sense of purpose. But it is if we, Depending on the context, If I'm doing this to become enlightened, Then I think we're up for, We're like heading for a calamity. But if we're meditating to, Like I think there is always a sense of achievement with meditation to, To refine the qualities of the mind, To be more generous, To be kinder and to own our own blind spots. That's what I would say. That's my thing. So Mrs. Reid has said here, Being present in the moment with what is while we are having relational dialogue with another. So yet education, Et cetera, As mentioned, There are no shortcuts with this. There is no, There are no shortcuts. And I think that shortcut thing, That's, That's a big problem. I think you've nailed it, Mrs. Reid. Yes. It's, It's, It reminds me of an old Zen story where a student comes and says, Okay, I want, I'm here. I want to get enlightened. How long is this going to take? You know? And he says, Oh, Yeah. Oh, Okay. If I, You know, He says, Oh, Maybe two years. And then he says, Okay, Well, What if I really doubled down? You know, Try really hard, Give it everything, You know, Go into it full force. And he says for you. Five years. So I mean, You should use a long, Way longer times, But you get the idea, Right? But you know, This is a classic meditation question of, Okay. If there is no goal or if we're not have some kind of goal or. Why are we, You know, What's the point of this? Then it can just become like spinning wheels. You might as well just do whatever you want. Then there's not really much. So what balance with that, With where we in the West are kind of oriented, I think, And conditioned to be overly focused on results and metrics and achievements and, You know, I did it wrong. I did it right. You know? So where's the balance here? You know, It does. And I don't really, This is a really kind of more nuanced and layered question. So I think it has to be kind of a balance of these and both in this speak, It does speak to right effort, You know? So that's one thing we can do is, You know, Get rid of states that aren't helpful or aren't skillful and prevent them from re-arising. And then we can generate new states that are helpful and then preserve those states. And of course we're not after states in the longterm either, But these are supportive. Like scaffoldings to, To help us on our journey. And knowing when we're over-efforting and when we're under-efforting, You know, When, Yeah. And pay attention to kind of the heart and what moves the heart, What stirs the heart. That's really important as well. I've been looking a little bit, I heard a program on the radio and it was actually about revenge, Tit for tat, For lack of a better way of describing it. And I thought, Ah, And he said, This is actually what starts wars. This is what is central to so much discontent, You know, Whether you're a union and you're fighting against, Or whether you're an employer and you're fighting against, You know, You should be at whatever it is. And I think there is, We see it a lot in today's world, But I think it is the human condition, This sense of revenge. And I think we can't always tell. We can hide it in amongst things. And that can be, I'm going to, I'm driven to get this done. I'm driven to become enlightened because actually I feel I was put down so much as a child that I don't have a sense of self, So therefore I'm going to be the revered one. That is a form of revenge. I think that is very interesting to see in that context. You go, Josh. Yeah, Absolutely. You know, These are, What's motivating our practice? You know, This is Chanda. There's wholesome desire and helpful desire, And then there's unhelpful desire. And this plays into what we were talking about earlier. I just listened to a podcast on the drama triangle. And so all of us have experienced this basically, Right? As far as I know, I can't, Well, Of course I can't speak for everybody. You've got the perpetrator, You've got the victim, And then you've got the rescuer, The hero. And the revenge part that goes both, It plays in here really well, Right? If I'm the perpetrator, I'm going to get revenge. But then if I'm the victim, Then I really need to get revenge if I'm in this drama triangle because they did this to me. I am justified. You know, I'm entitled to do revenge because look what they did. And that never ends. And then they're calling out, Both sides are calling out for a rescuer. And then the rescuer can step in and then, Oh, You're not respecting what I'm doing for you. Then they become victim. So it's just this drama triangle. And you can switch this to the empowerment triangle. Yeah, So this is, It plays in so much of these cycles, These cycles of abuse that happen. And yeah, So what is our motivation for practice? We need to look at that and be honest. I mean, Can we use that actually as a starting point and be honest? Okay, That's actually what's motivating me now, But how can I transform that? How can that develop? How can that heal? You know, What kind of, Can I use that? What's the silver lining here that I can use for skillful use while dropping the unskillful part of it as motivation? And how can I heal from that and go on? And so as far as then, If I could switch just a little bit here to this notion of randomness is another thing I was reflecting on. So you got one camp, Everything's purposeless and meaningless. Things just happen randomly, Which I think is a huge load of BS, You know, For one thing, This is a mathematical concept. And as far as I know, I've asked really high end math nerds, Can you mathematically prove randomness? And I don't, They just kind of, You know, Hem and haw and go around the book. I don't think that you can, But it's just an assumption. I think in mathematics and life that, Oh, Something's random. And they formulate equations and build whole theories and things that things are just, And they just take it for granted. That's the thing. But as far as I know, It hasn't been proven. And I don't think that it doesn't seem because there's conditionality, Right? There's causes and conditions. As far as I know, Not everything is due to causes and conditions, But a lot of things are. And a lot of things that seem random are just beyond our understanding. You know, How, How many things, What we thought, If we reflect on our past, We thought it just happened randomly. Then we find out we get extra information. We kind of find out, Oh, It seems more likely that it actually wasn't random that, You know, Something happened this way. So I think this is a notion to, To bring into our contemplation. Especially for the bleak people that, Oh, There is no, No point, No meaning, Which can be really, This is the one to go down into depression and, You know, Really dark states as well. And even though so it can be used because as a seed, You know, A seed comes and seed needs an amount of darkness and water and light in order to, To sprout. So, You know, Not to be opportunistic, But, You know, Here's the lemon we've been handed. What are we going to do with it? You know, What's the best way to do with it? Yeah. I was thinking, You know, You said sometimes it's not cause and effect. I'm going, I don't think anything can not be cause and effect because in order for you and me to be on this call, Like it's true that the, You know, House might fall apart in this moment. You might go, Well, That's, You know, Not cause and effect, But I have to be in the house in order for it to land on my head. So I think, I think everything has cause and effect. Well, What I mean is, So I think the technical term in Buddhism is the Niyamas. So you have the Kama is the law of cause and effect intentionality, Right? The other ones are things that govern nature. And so these are more like functional things like weather patterns. And actually, If you go into minute areas of the mind, There's, There's, Yeah, It plays in, But there's all these different things like an Abhidhamma that yeah, It plays in, But there's other, These other governing forces. I think that how it said that it's just kind of like relational and organizational in a way. And apparently they say Arhats who are fully awakened beings, They, Their Kama is just functional. You know, It doesn't reproduce positive or negative results. It's mainly functional. It's said, Of course, I can't speak to from experience, But yeah, For more, For more simplistic, For more thing. Yeah. Pretty much everything is as far as I know is, Is, Is at least subject to the law of intentionality, Whether it actually plays in or how it plays in that. And this is important to point out. This is one of the imponderables too. There are certain things we can study about Kama in this that are laid out, But it's also one of the imponderables. Meaning if you try to go into understanding the full depth and breadth of it, You can go mad. So be advised. Right. But there's plenty of really in-depth teachings that are, That are out there and safe to go into of what to study and whatnot. Yeah. On this. Yeah. So we've got two minutes left to wrap up. So what's your sense of, We've had a bit of a detouring conversation on all sorts of different aspects. Which is normal for us. Yeah. But I think we've touched in a range of things, Which is about, You know, Do you take things singly as a sort of sense of purpose? My sense of purpose is somehow external to me or am I relating is, Is everything what I'm doing according to the relationships that I have with everything. So as we wrap up for the last one minute, What do you, What are your closing thoughts? I wanted to just reflect on the, On the cushion to on this and you know, How has this effect how is this in meditation practice? And I think meditation will at least give some clarity, You know, For the, The, How to view meaning and purpose, The right view. What's, What's really important. Yeah. And how kind of settling and seeing things more clearly when it comes to this as well. And reflecting on what's the point of this, Why are we, We did a, We did a show on why meditate, Right? I think that was one. So that we kind of go into meaning and purpose. And Mrs. Reed says, You both answered this in many layered ways and it's pointing to, Yes, You're here. So of course there's a purpose to life. You, Me, We are proof of it. I think that's a beautiful things. And I would urge people to reflect on that and take that into their hearts and see how that lands. Yeah. Great way to close the show. Mrs. Reed, You have said it better than I can. Very good. All right, Wendy, Thanks again for doing this. And thanks everyone for tuning in and listening in and watching. So great to have you on Josh and Mrs. Reed. Indeed. So may you, May you all be well. Bye. Bye.