Karma Knows | 'Ask Us Anything' With Denny K Miu (9/29/2020)

This month’s, open-audience, open-discussion “Ask Us Anything” — discussions about meditation and related topics — with co-host Denny K Miu primarily address the term “Hīnayāna” and misunderstandings about karma.

Transcript

You picked two good topics today.

Well,

I appreciate that.

Yeah,

Those are the kind of things that popped up while we were doing Cady Choi's,

She was leading the diploma program on selected sutras and Chinese Buddhism.

And I'm really new to the Mahayana stuff,

You know,

Haven't really studied much of it at all.

So that's,

It was,

Yeah,

It was a lot of information for me and I haven't even read much of the core sutras,

You know,

That were talked about in there.

I'm pretty convinced that Mahayana is all about extraterrestrial beings.

Well,

That's,

I mean,

That's the beauty of it,

I think,

Because it just shows how vast and profound existence and reality can be,

You know.

And you know,

I run with a lot of different metaphysical circles too,

So I'm first in a lot of that stuff.

So it's translating between different systems of metaphysics as well too,

While keeping in mind,

You know,

The simile of the arrow,

Right?

You know that one,

Right?

We talked about that,

Right?

You get,

The guy gets shots with an arrow,

But before he wants it pulled out,

He wants to know what is the arrowhead made of,

You know,

Who fletched the shaft of the arrow,

You know,

What burp did the feathers come from?

He wants to know all this stuff,

But by the time he figures all that out,

He's dead from the arrow.

So that's what I think the Buddha's metaphor was for the metaphysics.

That's this,

That's,

Stop the blood flowing,

Fresh air.

Need to know exactly what you need to know for the suffering,

That's why he only taught suffering.

Then again,

You know,

The parable of the leaves,

You know,

Well where did he get that knowledge from,

You know?

He obviously had a ton of that knowledge beforehand,

Right?

You know,

He said,

You know,

What's more numerous,

The leaves in my hand or the leaves in the forest,

The leaves in his hand,

Well that's what he only taught.

But he had.

.

.

My problem with all that discussion is that I came from academia.

I taught at university for nine years.

So I understand why you need to talk about,

You know,

Talk about arithmetic,

Algebra,

Geometry,

Calculus,

And then,

You know,

Finally to general relativity.

I understand all that conversation,

How one was related to another,

That,

You know,

Before I,

We can talk about general relativity,

Maybe we should just start with arithmetic,

You know?

And then of course,

You know,

Halfway through arithmetic,

Some smart kid would say,

Well,

What is this all about?

So I understand all that.

I just think that,

I see it from both sides.

And this discussion of Hanayana is exactly that.

Is exactly that.

It's,

You know,

So you're looking at it,

It's really the parable of the blind touching,

You know,

Feeling the elephant,

And each one describing the elephant.

Oh yeah,

Classic.

You know,

So you have these two cam that talks about the big vehicle and the little vehicle,

You know,

Except that the guy who you refer to as little vehicle,

He says,

Well,

We don't know what you're talking about.

We were here 300 years before you guys.

So you must be talking about him.

You know how that works,

Right?

When you,

When you get in an argument and people are putting you down,

You say,

Well,

No,

No,

You can't be talking about me.

Yeah,

It's just,

You see,

From a Westerner perspective,

Like I said,

I just don't,

I don't,

I don't get it.

I mean,

I mean,

I can definitely see where they,

You know,

It's kind of like a,

Like a pissing contest,

Right?

Kind of thing.

Well,

The thing is that,

The thing is that I'm struggling with all that now and trying to digest all that because Master had this three day retreat on Zoom that was probably like three,

Four weeks ago.

It was,

It was actually a memorial weekend,

I think.

Yeah.

Was it a memorial or labor?

I forgot which.

Well,

I get those confused too.

Yeah.

However,

The long weekend.

And so a group of students from Los Angeles had organized that.

So we all try to jump to that.

And it was in Mandarin.

It was in Mandarin,

Which is tough for me,

But on the other hand,

We recorded it and then we actually went through a lot of,

We did a lot of work to put it in the Chinese subtitle.

Okay.

So I had a lot of opportunity to really,

You know,

Like dive deep into his teaching.

And so,

So he's,

He actually,

He actually,

His,

His approach now is,

Is he's integrating what one would call a Hanayana versus,

You know,

Mahayana.

And in fact,

The story was that,

I remember,

Visiting a Thai temple once with him and the,

The,

The abbot that we were supposed to meet got stuck in traffic.

So we were,

We were just there with,

With all the,

All the monks.

And of course,

Master speaks Thai.

And so they were conversing.

They were very happy to see a guy who,

Who's obviously not Thai speaking Thai.

And Master was very excited because he hadn't practiced Thai in a long time.

So then came another monk that looked just like the other monk,

Except that turns out that he doesn't speak Thai,

Even though he's Thai,

Thai in origin.

So he was somebody who was born here and he speaks only English.

So he woke up to,

To Master and says,

Oh,

You're from,

You are Mahayana.

Right?

Because,

You know,

He wears different uniforms.

So Master said,

No,

I am Buddha-yana.

It's a great story.

I remember that one.

Yes.

And he does,

You know,

He says he practices more Theravada at night and Mahayana during the day.

It's such a unique path and we're,

I feel so blessed and grateful to be a part of it.

Except that,

Except that in the end,

I think what he said is that it's not a choice.

Huh?

It's not like you can choose.

It's not like there's,

You know,

There's door number one,

Door number two,

And you can pick whichever door you goes to.

And then it goes to end.

No,

He actually came out and says,

No,

There,

There,

There is no choice.

That you just,

You can't choose.

You have to start with the basic.

In fact,

If you practice Mahayana,

The idea that,

That the core of the teaching is above the four immeasurables,

That actually leads you as straight,

Because what happened is that,

Um,

You,

You,

The idea is that the four immeasurables,

You know,

You have,

You start with compassion,

Living kindness,

And then,

And then,

Uh,

Uh,

Empathetic joy.

And then,

And then ultimately get to equanimity.

The problem is that since you don't have the equanimity practice very quickly,

You're,

You're,

You become more attached.

Yeah.

So it's like,

It's like going up,

You know,

So,

So the,

I,

And I knew that,

I knew that,

And I knew that,

I mean,

From very early on when I met Master and I remember telling him,

I said,

Master,

You know,

Did you know that there are two kinds of,

Of,

Uh,

Lifesavers?

You know,

Like I said,

I used to take my kids to the swimming pool and,

And,

But,

You know,

I realized that it's outside of swimming pool in the,

Especially in the temple.

There are two kinds of,

Of,

Uh,

Of lifesavers.

There's the kind who knows how to swim and is expert in swimming,

But didn't want to save anyone.

There's this other kind who wants to save someone,

But he himself doesn't know how to swim.

You get so much,

So much in there,

Denny,

Um,

Before I forget what the,

Okay.

We should,

We should start.

Okay.

Yeah.

All right.

Um,

Hi everyone.

Good morning.

Good afternoon.

Good evening.

Welcome to another episode of AUA.

Ask us anything,

The original AUA.

Welcome again to Josh,

Josh Depolt,

Um,

Who's joining us the second time.

Uh,

We,

We,

We are,

We,

Last time was a month ago.

Hi,

Good afternoon,

Josh.

How are you?

Hey Denny,

What's going on?

And,

Um,

Uh,

Congratulations on all the,

The interviews you've done so far.

So I'm glad I could play a small part in possibly some inspiration of what you've been doing with,

Um,

All the interviews and whatnot.

And yeah,

You continue dedication to Dhamma,

Gudadhamma and,

Uh,

Yeah,

It like,

Especially the daily practice continued to do on zoom.

So you probably see that in the show notes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We,

We're,

We're,

We're,

Uh,

We're doing our best.

We know we're,

It's,

It's,

Uh,

I said last time is that it,

This epidemic,

This,

The pandemic,

Um,

Which continues,

You know,

It's,

It's,

It only,

It will only get worse as the months to come.

And,

Uh,

It's,

It's what I said about marriage.

It doesn't get better.

It just gets,

You get more used to it.

So the pandemic gets worse,

But we get more used to it.

So,

So you brought with you a bunch of questions.

So why don't you pick one?

And how about we pick the easy one?

What does master Jiru stands for?

You know,

That's probably one of the most pressing ones anyway,

And most unique and specific that you'll probably not get anywhere else.

Right.

So yeah.

What does Jiru mean?

Okay.

So,

So,

So the name,

The full name is,

Is Sikh Jiru.

Right.

So all,

All the,

The,

The Chinese tradition is such that when a person becomes a monastic,

Whether he's a monk or a nun,

He,

He,

He has to,

Um,

Uh,

Uh,

What's the word,

Uh,

Give up or,

Or,

Uh,

Renounce renounce.

And when he,

He actually,

So,

So,

So,

So,

So a lot of people think that becoming a monk just means that you renounce your family life,

Right.

And,

And where in fact,

That's the last thing you renounce.

So there's actually three steps.

You renounce all your Dukkha,

You know,

All your,

All your,

All your,

All your,

All your,

Uh,

Uh,

Definements or your,

Um,

Uh,

Hindrances,

Uh,

At least,

Uh,

You,

You,

You declare a path to that.

The second thing you,

You renounce,

And this is the part that perhaps is,

Is least talk about in the Western world of Buddhism is that you actually have to renounce,

Uh,

Uh,

Samsara.

You actually have to renounce,

Uh,

Reincarnation.

So again,

It's,

It's a,

It's a question of,

Of making a decision so that I don't have to,

Uh,

I,

I'm working towards,

Um,

Buddha hood,

Which means,

Um,

Escaping,

Uh,

Samsara,

Escaping,

Uh,

Reincarnation.

And then finally you renounce your family life.

And,

And message you actually have a very interesting take on that.

And he says,

No,

You don't renounce your family life.

So you can hide in the cage somewhere,

Hide in a case somewhere.

You can do that without actually become a monastics.

Right?

Anybody can do that.

He says,

Actually you renounce your family life so that you can dedicate yourself completely to serving the community.

So he has a different take on that.

So,

So the Chinese tradition is that when you do that,

You actually renounce your last name,

Your family name.

And so they always have the last name,

Which is Sikh,

S I K,

Which,

Which comes from Sikkimori,

Sikkimori,

Sikkimori.

Sikkimori is the name of,

Of our historical Buddha.

Once he became Buddha.

So he had a different name before.

And that was his given name too.

And then he was,

And then he,

And then people would then refer to him as,

As a Sikkimori.

And Sikkimori actually is two part.

The first part meant is again,

His family,

A part of his family there.

And then,

And then the last part meant that he's,

He's the elders.

He's the,

He's the,

He's the,

He's the one who knows,

Right?

So this is actually,

So one part actually represents compassion and the other part represents wisdom.

The point is that all monastics in the Chinese tradition,

They take on the last name Sikh.

And so,

So Master's last name is actually Sikh,

But his first name is,

Is Jiru or Jiru.

And again,

That's that you can break that into two parts.

The first word means continue.

Okay.

So one of the things that you have to know is that Chinese language is very complicated.

You cannot,

You cannot just take one character and say,

That's,

That's,

That's the meaning.

You can't actually do that.

And the meaning varies depending on what other word they conjugate with.

And sometimes it,

The meaning also takes on a historical perspective as well.

So,

So example,

The other day in my Sunday night Dharma meeting with the the volunteers that we,

That for the,

For the prison and say,

They were talking about,

What does it mean to save all beings?

Save all beings.

And so I,

I said,

Well,

Actually the Chinese word doesn't mean safe.

The Chinese word is actually to guide.

Ah.

So I use the example that,

That it's a guy,

It's the same way that we use.

If I were like the person who,

Who rode the,

The boat and I come through the shore of the river and I see you standing there,

But I know that there is a,

A mudslide coming your way.

I cannot just grab you and put you on my boat thinking that I was safe all being.

My job is not to say my job is the guy.

You would have to agree to it first.

Right.

So anyway,

So,

So Chinese characters are very complicated.

You can't just take one.

But on the other hand,

Ji,

Ji,

The most common explanation of that is to continue,

To continue.

Now a couple,

But keep in mind that that is the same among all of the,

Master's Dharma brothers.

So the Chinese name always is,

Most likely is two characters.

The first one is common for people who are of the same generation.

So knowing that,

You know what generation they are and who,

Who is possibly their master.

Okay.

So this is true even among us.

So like I have two younger brothers,

We all share the same first characters.

Okay.

Okay.

Now the second character,

Again,

Is very complicated.

It could mean a bunch of things and,

But,

But since we're,

We're,

We're,

We're among friends,

You know,

So,

So it's the same word that I've heard appear in one of the 10 epithets for Buddha.

You know,

The Buddha has like 10 different names that represent 10 different virtues.

And one of the,

One of the one in,

In Pali or in Sanskrit is,

Is a Takatata.

Takata,

I've heard it pronounced.

Takatata,

Takatata.

So there's actually two different,

Um,

Um,

Uh,

Uh,

Interpretation for that because it depends on the gata,

It's g-a-t-a,

Depending on if you attach the a to gata or you attach the a to the previous word or the a split because a is the opposite and gata means to leave,

A gata means to come.

So that's the one who comes well,

The one who comes,

Uh,

You know,

So,

So,

So the idea is that you and I come to this world,

But when we come,

We come with all the baggages.

When Buddha comes to the world,

He does not come with any of them.

So he comes well,

Right?

And so,

So that,

That word well would be one way to interpret it,

Masters you.

So,

So in a way it's a very good name.

It's,

It's,

It's as if he's saying that I'm the one continuing,

You know,

The,

The work of the Buddha.

Well,

Yeah.

And that's a,

To Takata.

I always thought this,

You know,

What,

Why aren't we called to talk?

Why isn't it called to target today ism,

You know,

Uh,

Take a gata ism instead of Buddhism.

Um,

That's what he,

Uh,

The historical Buddha referred to himself when people ask who he was.

It depends on the Sutra.

That's right.

It's a target.

Yeah.

So,

So if you look at the diamond Sutra,

That's the only thing they refer to is to gata,

To gata.

Yeah.

It's either way.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But,

But it,

You can't really use one because all 10 has different meaning.

So for example,

We,

We,

We talk about,

You know,

You mentioned about Hanayana.

And so if you say Hanayana is the practice of the people in the Southeast China,

Southeast Asia,

You know,

Going from Sri Lanka to,

To,

To Burma and so forth,

Then they don't talk about Buddha hood as much as they talk about being our Han.

That's right.

Yep.

So our Han is one of the 10 epitaph too.

Exactly.

Yep.

So in transition to that,

Um,

I want to address some of the things you said.

Um,

Well,

And then to Tagata,

It's,

I also heard the,

Um,

Translation of when,

When the Buddha referred to himself as the Tagata,

It was like,

Um,

It means like,

I am thus that say,

You know,

Who are you?

Well,

I am,

I'm like this.

So he's kind of more like a verb than a noun.

Right.

Yeah.

Okay.

So it's interesting the wordplay on,

Uh,

Master Jiru's name,

Shifu's name,

Uh,

Sikh,

You know,

That's also the name of a religion.

Oh no,

No,

No,

No.

That's completely different.

This is a wordplay.

This is totally different.

That's completely different.

You know how English spins things and has kind of singularities and stuff.

So in this case,

It's the spelling is S I K and the other one is the spelling is S I N G H.

Yes.

It's just,

It's just the wordplay and the puns in English I find amusing.

And there's also a tree called the sycamore,

Which is similar sounding to,

Um,

What you said too,

Right?

Um,

A sycamore and there's plenty of sycamores that grow around our rivers around here too,

Our creeks.

And then also I like the idea of guiding so much better than saving because saving seems to have like a lot of,

Um,

Our can have some negative Christian baggage for those that aren't,

Don't consider themselves Christians or have been,

Are getting out of that.

I don't want to,

You know,

Get in comfort.

You know,

Obviously nothing against Christianity.

It's a,

I think it's very supportive.

Um,

I think Buddhism actually is supportive of a lot of that stuff too.

Um,

It's just that I like the guiding better because maybe some other time we'll go into my encounters.

Well,

No,

It's actually,

You really,

So,

So again,

You know,

Sometimes those words,

Um,

The,

The,

The true meaning of the words is,

Depends on the conjugation,

But then the meaning of the word can also have depends on the historical,

Um,

Historical,

Uh,

Uh,

Uh,

The historical interpretation.

So,

So very,

Very,

Um,

Famous story was about,

Um,

The sixth Patriot.

And so the sixth Patriot is interesting person in that.

Uh,

Number one,

He is the one that actually,

Um,

So,

So the sixth Patriot means that there's a first Patriot,

Which is Buddha Dharma.

And then eventually you get to the fifth Patriot,

But in between they're basically like one off.

Okay.

And then,

And then they very brief,

Where it'd be a few years.

And then they transfer another one every year.

And finally,

When they get to the fifth Patriot,

Then,

Then he started to really build up this Chan practice or what is now called Zen practice.

And but it wasn't until the sixth Patriot that really took it.

And so there's a saying that it's,

It's,

It's,

It's one stem,

Five flowers,

Because then,

You know,

It becomes five different branches and Soto Zen and all that,

You know,

That,

And then eventually it took another thousand years before they,

Before,

You know,

800 years before they went to,

Um,

Went to,

Uh,

Japan,

You know,

But the very famous story about the sixth Patriot,

And this explains,

You know,

Kind of put some historical context to the word,

What is served to guy or,

Or to,

To,

To,

To relieve or,

Or to,

Uh,

To rescue.

The very famous story was that,

Uh,

The sixth Patriot was actually illiterate.

And so,

Um,

He,

He actually came to the,

The,

The monastery where the fifth Patriots are and the fifth Patriot recognized him,

But he also understand the danger that he would be in because he's such an enlightened person,

But yet he had no formal training.

And so that could cause all kinds of problems with his,

His other,

Other students.

So he purposely pushed him to work in essentially the kitchen.

And then one day he,

He had this,

You know,

He asked him to come and so he came to his room and they,

The story was that they,

They were,

They were transmitting his,

His,

You know,

His,

His wisdom.

And then when it's all done,

Then the fifth Patriot was the one that took the Gaza,

Which is the,

The uniform and the bowl.

And he says,

Now,

You know,

From now on,

You are the sixth Patriot,

But let's get out of here because you're now in danger.

So they,

They,

They,

Together,

They,

They went down to the bottom of the mountain,

The mountain where the temple is to the river.

And so the,

So the,

So the,

So the,

So the fifth Patriot says,

Let me guide you across to the river,

Right?

Which would be what that would be what we would say,

Because the sixth Patriot came from afar.

He doesn't know the area,

The fifth,

The fifth Patriot is the one that knows the area.

So he says,

Let me guide you,

Let me help you to cross the river.

And so he had a very famous saying,

Which is the sixth Patriot says,

Well,

When I am,

What's the word,

What's the opposite of enlightened?

When I am asleep,

When I'm asleep,

You guide me.

Now that I'm enlightened,

I would have to guide myself.

And it's the same word they use in the verses where he says,

You know,

How to,

How to what's the word that I was using earlier,

How to save all beings.

So it doesn't,

So,

So my point is that it's not safe,

It's the guy,

But it's more than good because think about it,

Right?

So the fifth Patriot put himself in the position where he would provide the manual labor.

So he is,

So embedded in that word is a sense of service,

A sense of,

So,

So,

So it's very different from saving all beings.

Saving beings had this connotation,

You know,

That I'm here to save,

I,

You know,

You follow,

Right?

Yeah.

So in this case,

It's more like if you want to guide me,

You have to come from,

You would come from the angle that says,

Danny,

I'm very humble,

I would want to provide that service to you.

I know the way,

I'm not the expert,

But I know the way,

And if you're willing,

Come with me and together we'll go across.

Something like that.

See,

This is a great point that needs to be addressed,

And I've got,

Eventually get to a blog post where I have all these different questions about Arhat versus,

Or not versus,

Well maybe,

But Arhat and Bodhisattva,

You know,

And how they complement,

But also how the questions I have about them since I'm new to this.

But this is a key point for me because,

You know,

How do we help others without stepping on their journey?

You know what I mean?

Because it's the perfect way,

What you just described is.

.

.

Josh,

But that's a very,

Very important point because the Buddhist teaching prevent us from knocking on doors.

Ah,

That's a good metaphor.

We can't just come to your house,

Knock on your doors and say,

Hey,

What do you think?

We can't.

And keep in mind that all sutras are basically a record of the dialogue between the historical Buddha and his disciple.

It's always ask and answer,

Ask and answer,

Right?

You notice that all the sutras,

There's a discourse,

There's somebody in there who says,

Master,

What do you think?

There are very few exceptions.

There are actually very few exceptions where the Buddha says,

Well,

You know,

This is what I feel like talking today.

Very few exceptions.

Most of them are ask and answer,

Ask and answer.

Very unique teaching style too because,

Yeah.

And then he redefined a lot of terminology of his day too.

Now one of the questions you asked,

One of the questions you suggest,

One of the point of discussion is this whole thing about karma.

Oh yeah.

So this idea of ask.

.

.

Let me set this up just a little bit.

It was such a popular topic in the classes I'm taking.

Everybody's so fascinated by it.

And the Western interpretation of it is obviously very misguided in popular culture anyway.

So let's start with a literal translation of the word,

Which I've heard actually.

Let's do that.

But let me just kind of use that to finish off the discussion that we have about guiding.

So in fact,

The idea that we shouldn't teach unless the person is ready for the teaching goes so deep that because later on we talk about karma,

Karma,

The idea is that you have your own karma and I have mine.

And so for me to jump into your face and say,

I actually would perturb your karma.

I might actually delay your path because now all of a sudden,

Because of my interjection,

You have this aversion to the teaching.

Then instead of going on your own,

You would have a straight way and now you detour and that would be my fault.

So sorry for interrupting you.

So we have two important topics.

I'm not sure we can do all that today,

But one has to do with karma and one has to do with Hanayana.

And you mentioned that maybe karma should be a more urgent topic,

Do you think?

Yes,

Because I think even the Dalai Lama said that if I'm getting this right,

That's something that he wanted Westerners to really understand and comprehend.

And I just think it's such a misunderstood or misrepresented in Western culture,

Especially in popular culture.

The common misinterpretation is,

Oh,

That's their karma,

Right?

Oh,

That's karma,

Which basically means it's like a punishment system for doing something bad.

That's the horrible,

Oversimplified misunderstanding of it in popular culture in the West.

And I feel that needs to be rectified.

The thing is that it's so,

Like I was saying,

It's a vast and profound teaching,

But it can also be quite simple with cause and effect.

But actually,

I'm not very schooled on this.

I want to have you give what you did in the show notes as a great rundown and give that.

And then maybe I can talk,

The one that I feel more comfortable about talking about this part is intent that's involved in karma.

But why don't you just give a whole,

Like a rundown overview,

Whatever you feel is important.

And then,

You know,

I brought up,

It's actually one of the imponderables,

Which is,

You know,

If you start looking into every single detail and investigating all of it,

There's a chance the Buddha said that you could go mad doing so.

Although there's also some very straightforward teachings listing different types of karma that we can study.

So my question was basically,

You know,

How do we understand it first?

And then how do we study what we can safely?

Basically that was the question.

Yeah,

I think that understanding karma is probably the most important discussion one can have with regard to Buddha's teaching.

So I think I always like to go back to history and I always like to go back to the time and what was the historical context.

Is this true if I want to study Buddha's teaching or is it true if I want to study Jesus' teaching?

So in Jesus' case,

You know,

He's a Jew and he was basically born in a colony and the colony was the colonialists,

The Romans.

And so there was a lot of social injustice between the conqueror who were the Romans and then the people who were actually the administrators,

Which are the Jews and then also the people.

And so I,

Rather than just like look at the Bible and I always question who wrote the Bible as much as I question who wrote the Sutra,

I would rather go back to the historic history because at least that I understand the history and I can see,

Well,

Forget,

You know,

Jesus as the son of God,

Put that aside,

Yes or no,

I don't care,

That doesn't matter.

But what was he trying to do?

What did he see with his eye and what were you trying to do given his intellect?

I would do the same thing with the historical Buddha,

Which is 600,

550 years before the birth of Christ and I would ask myself,

Well,

What was happening then in North India?

And so one of the things that I would point out is if you look at the sign,

The Buddha's sign is identical to the one used by the Nazis.

Oh yeah,

Except no,

The Nazis is reversed.

No.

Doesn't it point the other way?

That's what people try to say is that one is one and one is no,

But if you visit enough temple you will realize that we use it both directions.

But of course we make the distinction just because we don't,

You know,

Because otherwise,

But on the other hand we have to accept that and so forth.

I mean now we don't have the Olympics this year,

But we had the Olympic this year.

One of the big thing in Japan is that they have to take down all those signs.

It just,

It just,

It causes problem with people.

I haven't followed that,

But maybe I can look at that later.

I think like if you look at some of the stats,

The Buddha statue in Mapa,

Master Jiho actually went to great lengths to never have that symbol.

Huh,

Well it's so unfortunate because,

You know,

A lot of times people in power that are negative,

They'll invert a symbol or they'll co-opt a symbol and completely pervert it and invert it too.

But putting that aside,

The question is that why the symbol?

Well what I've heard is it's a sun symbol,

Which is,

I don't know,

I'm sure there's all kinds of different things,

But that's a,

I don't know,

It's a short answer.

But it's the same symbol because Hitler and Buddha share the same heritage.

Oh,

The Aryans?

They're both Aryans.

Okay.

So Buddha was born 600 years before Christ and about a thousand years before that,

Maybe more,

Maybe a few thousand years before that was one migration of the Aryans.

The migration of the Aryans.

So you will notice that in India you have different shades of skin.

You have the lighter and the darker.

This is true in Iran and in Egypt.

A lot of the conquerors came with the Aryans and so the question is that why was that so easy for them to conquer?

Well because they have advances in mythology that even today we don't understand.

But in any case they worship Brahmin and so when we talk about,

You know,

Atheists versus polyatheists versus mono-atheists,

We talk a great deal about the Abraham religion,

Which consists of Catholics,

Protestants,

And the Muslims and so forth because their common ancestor is Abraham.

That we call that the monotheist,

That there's only one God.

But the Aryans have only one God too and that's the Brahmin,

The Brahmin king,

The Mahabrahmin,

Right?

So the Aryans came to India,

The Indian continent and the original Indians were much darker skinned.

In fact they share the same DNA as the native,

The people in Australia.

Because once upon a time India and Australia were one and so the people there had the same DNA,

Right?

So you have this stratification of people,

Conquerors and so forth.

So eventually they set up this caste system and the caste system was such that the people on the very top were the people who can have a dialogue with their God,

Which in this case is a problem,

No different than the Jewish,

No different.

Then you have the royalties.

And then you have the merchants and so forth and so on.

And then you have like the lower class.

Now keep in mind that all four are still Aryans.

So there's a misunderstanding thinking that the natives are the lowest class.

No,

The natives don't even count.

They're below the four.

Okay.

So to a point where if one of the lower one,

If they want to buy a food,

They would have a dish where they drop the money into the dish and then they would throw the food on the floor.

They won't touch them.

So that's why it's called untouchable.

Now the idea of karma starts there.

The idea of karma actually starts there.

And the idea of karma is that if I am of the upper caste,

My karma would be that I would come back as the upper caste.

That's my karma.

And then if your karma is in the lower caste,

Then your karma would be such that you will come back as that.

Okay.

So when you say that there's a misunderstanding of karma,

I wouldn't say that it's a misunderstanding.

I would say that it was the original understanding.

And if that's your understanding that you haven't learned anything from Buddha.

What Buddha did was he said,

No,

That can't be the case.

And so he was actually a social revolutionary.

He was basically trying to undo the justice,

Which was very deep.

But what he did was that he wasn't trying to overthrow anyone.

He was trying to put a rug under them,

Which is that if you think that karma meant that,

No,

Karma does not meant that.

Okay.

So what does karma mean in the Buddhist teaching?

So he then talks about this dependent origination,

Right?

So that's a little too deep,

But let me give you a much simpler example.

If you go out to your garden and you want to plant tomato,

You have to start with the tomato seed.

If you didn't have the tomato seed,

You would never have tomato.

Okay.

So you plant the tomato seeds and then now you have tomato.

Well,

Guess what?

The tomato have seeds.

So it never ends.

Once you plant the seed,

It doesn't end.

It just goes from there.

But more important than that,

In order for the seed to become a fruit,

You have to have the condition.

Condition means that I have to have to plant it first.

And if I plant it on cement,

It would never grow.

So I have to find a soil.

But not only that,

But I have the water.

I have to keep it away from the elements.

I have to fertilize.

I have to spend time to remove the weeds and then I have to build a trolleys for the.

.

.

I have to do all that in order for the seed to become the fruit.

So the question is,

What is karma?

Well,

Karma is both the seed and the fruit.

Because karma is one of the eight consciousness that makes up our existence.

So you can talk about our existence in terms of the eight consciousness or you can talk about in terms of the five standards.

They are actually the same.

They are just different ways of classifying.

So what does it mean when you classify it as five standards?

Well,

There is the form and then there is everything else.

So the form includes everything that is physical,

Our eyes,

Our nose,

Our tongue,

Our ear,

Our skin and our brain.

And our brain.

That's what we call the sixth sense store,

The sixth root.

The consciousness is the electricity that was generated by these organs.

So there are six consciousness that are associated with the form.

So when my eye sees you,

You are the stimulus.

So you are the color,

You are the microwave or you are the whatever it is that impinges on my eye and my eye generates electricity.

So right away we have these three different domains.

There is the physics,

There is the physiology and then there is the neurology.

So the sixth of the consciousness has to do with neurology.

The eye consciousness,

The nose,

The eye would be sight,

The nose would be smell,

The tongue would be taste,

The body would be touch and then finally it goes into the brain.

The brain generates what we call the mental action,

The mental volition.

So if I want to beat somebody up,

It starts with that before I actually get into a physical action.

So that accounts for the six consciousness.

Each of the consciousness can be both a seed or a fruit.

It's the fruit when the eye interacts with the outside world.

In this case,

The cause and effect is such that the eye consciousness is the fruit,

It's the effect.

However when the eye,

The ear,

The nose collects all the data and it feeds it into the last organ which is the brain,

They are now the seed.

They're now the seed which then causes the final mental action which is the fruit.

So cause and effect,

Right?

So what happened then?

What happened then?

Well there is the seven consciousness and the eight consciousness.

So today we want to talk about eight consciousness which is the karma.

So what is karma?

It depends on what you want to talk about.

Is it a seed or is it a fruit?

So what does it mean?

Well first of all,

Go back to neurology.

Neurology meaning that consciousness is electrical.

So the universe is all about electricity.

However we also know that when you have electricity you have magnetism.

It's physics.

You cannot have electricity without magnetism.

So if I think that this is a piece of wire,

And that's why we do like qigong and all the things like yi jing jing and meditation and all that,

It's actually playing with electricity and magnetism because when we have blood flow,

It's electricity,

It generates magnetic field and then the magnetic field can couple into a different part of the body and causes a lot of phenomenon that we can only witness when we are in meditation.

But in any case,

When you have a thought,

The thought is electrical,

It generates magnetic field,

And when you generate magnetic field,

It leaves a memory.

It leaves a memory.

So karma in this case is just a memory.

So for all the mental action that we have,

It leaves behind a memory.

Now before we go on,

This is actually very scientific.

So what does that movie call,

The name just escapes me,

Talked about time travel,

There was that movie called Time Travel.

Oh there's a lot of Hollywood movies about time travel.

The one I'm thinking of,

So anyway he is the one that,

I wish I was more prepared,

So you will see all that,

The physicists talk about all that,

That you can do time travel,

But of course physics only allows travel to the past,

It doesn't allow travel to the forward.

So anyway I'm going off tangent,

But the point is that karma in this case is a memory.

It's a memory.

So for all the good things you've done,

All the bad things you've done,

It leaves behind a memory.

Now that same karma can also be a seed.

Because every time you have a mental action,

The external stimulants are from the eyes,

The nose,

The ear,

But there's also internal stimulants,

Which is the karma.

For the same reason that when you generate electricity,

Electricity leaves behind magnetism,

Then the next time you want to generate,

When you want to generate electricity,

You actually need magnets.

You can't generate electricity without magnetism.

You cannot,

The two goes another.

Every generate magnetism which is a memory,

Meaning that something gets magnetized.

And it's the magnetization that allows you to generate electricity.

Now I'm going to throw you a curve ball,

And we're talking all about mental activity,

Specifically thought.

Yeah,

All electrical,

All electricity.

So when we quiet the mind,

Or let's say maybe a mind of an arhat,

What I hear is they can still think,

But they only think if they want to think.

So there's other forces too in physics.

So with outside the mental sphere,

You have like vibrational energy instead of,

As opposed to electrical,

Chemical,

Magnetic,

And frequency stuff,

You have vibrational,

And then you also have radiation,

Right?

So these are other types of energy that,

I won't go into some of the metaphysics that people say about electromagnetism versus other types of energy and what's supposed to be more natural and whatnot.

But that's a whole other thing.

Another curve ball would be these drugs that they give to people in surgery,

Or these medical drugs that will help them forget certain procedures.

Yeah,

But none of that has to do with the mind.

None of that has to do with the mind.

So we're actually confusing what mind is.

So when Buddhists talk about mind,

They talk about beyond material.

That's another thing I was going to ask about.

But when the psychiatrists talk about mind,

And when you talk about how you can induce,

You know,

They're talking about the brain.

Right.

And that's just a physical manifestation.

But you did say that it was linked to,

What was it?

The question I have in the formless realm,

Because didn't you say that consciousness was dependent on a brain?

So if you have a formless realm,

There's still consciousness involved in the formless realm.

Oh yeah,

Absolutely.

This is kind of off the deep end,

And we're not really qualified to talk about this.

No,

No,

No,

No,

No,

No,

No,

No.

But we want to talk about that.

We want to talk about that.

But before we talk about that,

We need to address the issue,

Which is the sort of common discussion,

The common understanding of karma.

Because the one of the things people would say is that,

Hey,

It's in your karma.

That's,

You know,

What do you want?

It's in a karma.

You have to,

This is really important because,

Because what is,

What is Buddha's teaching?

Buddha's teaching is this,

In that you are your own,

You can,

You're the only one who can control your own destiny.

Okay?

What that means is that for everything that happens,

You need a condition.

If you want to change the effect,

Given the initial conditions,

Then you can change,

You can actually change the effect by changing the conditions.

So in other words,

Going back to the thinking of the time,

Which comes from North India,

And it comes from this overbearing caste system,

Which is really a political system disguised as a religious system.

But that's all always,

That's always what religious,

Religion is,

Is that it's something else disguised as religion,

Which is true.

If you study history,

That's how Catholicism started because the emperor needed something to,

To,

To in his,

In his arsenal.

Anyway,

The point is that what Buddha is saying is that,

No,

That's not true.

That's not true.

Just because you were born in a higher caste,

You can come back in a lower caste.

Or just because you're in a lower caste,

You can someday become the higher caste because you can control your destiny.

That's why you see Buddha was the only master at the time who accepted the student from the lower caste.

Yes.

Because everybody else just throw up their hands,

Just throw up their hands as low.

There's nothing you can do.

Right.

You know,

The best you can do.

Yeah.

That's why I like the definition action because what you,

What,

What,

What,

What we think,

Um,

Speak and act matters.

It's going to have,

It has a potential,

Um,

Outcome.

Not maybe not immediately,

But you know,

Uh,

Fruit down the road.

So if we can,

And that's where,

That's where we really have a huge choice is how we frame a situation,

How we view it,

Right?

The first,

First,

Um,

Of the eighth full noble path and then how we respond to it.

Yeah.

Those,

We have constant choices in life.

Yeah,

Those choices matter and will con,

Uh,

W w either way,

Will they cause or condition future outcomes?

Um,

Maybe both.

Right.

Yeah.

So,

So you had,

You mentioned the,

The,

The Elhan's,

The,

The,

The,

The,

The Elhan's are the other,

Other people who have practiced to a point where they,

They escaped,

Uh,

Samsara.

And so how do they do that?

Um,

They don't do that by filtering the comma.

See there's no filtering,

Right?

There's no filtering.

You can't just say,

Hey,

Here's my comma.

You know,

I'll pay,

I'll pay you,

You know,

What's your hourly wage?

And you know,

Clean that for me.

You can't just,

You know,

You can't just say,

Say,

You know,

Three minutes,

Say Hail Mary and be done with it.

You can't,

That's not what we believe.

You cannot cleanse.

There's because it's in your commas and therefore it's a comma because it's,

It's,

It's cosmic.

So what can you do if you couldn't filter?

Well,

You can,

You can let it settle.

You can do sentimentation.

So,

So the whole,

The word Chan is a abbreviation for the word China with Chinese,

Which is a,

Which is,

We comes from the word Jana that's sentimentation.

That's actually what,

What it means is that,

Is that we learned,

We learned to use a body as a,

As an early warning system so that when one of the bad seed,

A crystalline seed comes out from a comma,

We recognize it and we don't follow it.

But also not pretend it's not there and run away from it either.

And not pretend that it's not there.

Yeah.

So this is,

This is,

This is something very important in that,

In that people misunderstood what,

What what meditation means and they think that this is all about just sitting there and not think about anything.

Now the problem is that most people who do,

Most people who practice meditation get benefit from just not thinking,

You know,

They get benefit from just not thinking.

So,

So it's very easy for them to say,

Oh,

That's,

So that's what meditation is.

It's like going to the,

Going,

Going to a,

A,

A tank where you're deprived of your sensation.

You know,

They think that's meditation.

In fact,

Meditation is not that at all.

Meditation is,

Has that calming effect,

Slowing down,

But fully aware of your surrounding,

Fully aware of your surrounding.

Not only does the mind quiet,

But we actually get the,

The,

The,

The capacity for,

You know,

A greater expanded awareness increases as well.

So I want to,

I want to make sure that if there's anybody out there who's listening and and karma,

The sort of the misunderstanding of karma or,

Or what we call misunderstanding or,

Or the kind of a,

That's the original definition of karma.

Buddha came along and redefined that.

And rather than saying that karma is like the conditions,

Unchangeable conditions that no matter what you do,

That's who you became.

No,

It's not that.

Karma is the initial condition.

Okay.

But you can change the outcome by changing the boundary condition.

Okay.

Changing the what condition?

Well,

In engineering,

We call the boundary.

Boundary condition.

Okay.

Boundary conditions.

You know,

So this is not all,

This is also to not confuse it with trying to line up external conditions just right and thinking that's going to make us happy too.

Cause a lot of people mistake that in their life too,

Right?

If I can just get,

You know,

My life in order on the outside,

Then everything's going to be okay.

If I can just,

You know,

Get a nice place to live,

A good job and you know,

And the wife and kids and just have my six pack on the Sunday,

Everything's going to be smooth sailing.

Well,

I mean to maybe to a certain extent,

But the thing is that that's a recipe for in the long run.

That's not going to,

That's not going to bring ultimate fulfilling happiness,

Right?

Well,

I wouldn't go as far as saying that that money doesn't buy you happiness.

Okay.

So I'm not that person.

So,

So I was asked that question one time,

Right?

You know,

What,

What makes you happy,

Poor or rich?

And I said,

I've been both.

I've been both.

I've been very,

Very poor.

I've been very,

Very rich.

So I can tell you the difference.

But I said,

Before I explained the difference,

I said,

That is again,

Another fundamental teaching from Buddha.

Because if you go back to what we call five scandals are empty.

This is another thing that is misunderstood.

Maybe we can talk about that in the future,

But very briefly in this case,

Emptiness doesn't mean empty.

Doesn't mean emptiness.

Empty in this case is empty of something.

In other words,

Everything can be changed,

Right?

Because it's empty of,

Of,

Of rules and regulations,

Right?

So it's a person who kills someone can still become a good person.

A person who's always been following the rule,

You know,

Example,

Exemplary person in the society can one day made a mistake and became a murderer.

Anything can happen.

It all has to do with the condition.

And so,

So for me,

Five scandals are empty is the ultimate freedom.

But what does freedom mean?

Freedom means choice.

If you don't have,

If I'm not giving you choice,

There is no freedom.

I can choose and that's a freedom.

So the question is,

What is freedom in,

In material sense?

Well material sense means that you now have resources and then you can choose to do this or you can choose to do that,

Right?

So it's very hard for a poor person to choose his material.

Okay.

But on the other hand,

The freedom could be on in,

In the spiritual level.

Freedom from.

Yeah.

So,

So,

But problem is that we can't really choose.

We don't know how to choose.

We don't have,

We don't have the tool.

And so the Buddhist teaching is all about giving the tools so that now you know the choices because if you didn't know the choices,

There's nothing to choose from.

And even if you know the choices,

But you didn't have the skill,

The training to choose,

Then there's nothing you can do.

And it's as if you didn't have any choice.

Discernment.

Yes.

Yeah.

So Buddhist teaching,

It's all about choice.

It's all about freedom.

It's just that we take it from the material level to more of a spiritual level.

So now going back to the question is that what,

What buys you happiness?

So I was asked that question and you know,

Do you find yourself being a happy person when you're poor or being a happy person when you're rich?

And I said,

Wait a minute.

You know,

I've been both,

But let me tell you this.

I said,

This all comes down to a choice.

If you're poor,

You can choose to be happy,

But if you're rich,

You can choose to be miserable.

Okay.

Well,

Yeah.

Basic needs are covered.

Everybody has to have basic needs covered,

Right?

Yeah.

Because if you don't have your basic needs,

It's miserable.

Exactly.

And then a lot of times,

No matter how much you have,

People always want more.

You know,

You could have very little money and there's people,

Not necessarily,

Not everybody,

But I mean,

Even super rich people,

They don't have enough.

Right.

Yeah.

But yeah,

Yeah,

This is,

We,

I mean,

Pretty much everybody agrees that we can't really do much spiritually if your basic needs aren't covered,

You know?

That's right.

That's right.

That's right.

I just wanted to go into our,

Just rattle off some of the,

How profound this karma stuff is.

So we have six causes,

Acting causes,

Simultaneously arising causes,

Congruent causes,

Equal status clauses,

Driving,

I'm sorry,

Causes,

Not clauses,

Ripening cause.

So all these are stuff that people can look up later.

And then there's four conditions,

Causal conditions,

Immediately preceding conditions,

Focal conditions,

Dominating conditions,

And then lastly,

The five type of results,

Ripened results,

Results that correspond to their cause,

Dominating results,

Manmade results,

Results that are states of being parted.

So all those are teachings that were given,

But I mean,

It goes way,

Way,

Way beyond all that stuff.

And also not everything is karma either.

There's other forces in the world that we've,

That we studied about that I can't really speak to because I'm not that well versed,

But not everything that we see that happens in life is a karmic effect or a karmic,

You know,

A seed or a fruit,

Right?

So there's other forces at play as well,

Right?

Now the other thing when I was looking into this,

The Jainist religion,

Of which one I know hardly anything about,

They have a huge long list of all this detailed teachings on karma and it's interesting Buddha,

Historical Buddha's interactions with that religion and the founder of that.

What was the,

Okay,

So the other thing I wanted to ask,

Going way back to the beginning of this,

The Aryans,

So where did the Aryans come from that came into India?

Where did they come from?

I don't know exactly because I know that it's not,

It's in the north,

It's in the north.

Probably what we would refer to today as the middle of Europe,

Which would be not exactly Russia but not exactly Germany.

Eastern Europe then?

Eastern Europe,

Kind of,

You know,

That area,

That area.

I would probably think maybe part of it is,

It's a cold,

Very,

Very,

So again the migration was the result of climate disasters and it's just that it was the reverse.

At that time it was not the warming but the cooling down of the planet.

So where they live becomes uninhabitable and so they have to move away.

One of the other things I found fascinating when we were studying this is,

You know how in the Buddha's time historically,

It goes back to,

You know,

Today it's Hinduism,

Before that it was the Vedas,

Stuff based on the Vedas and then before,

Well where did the Vedas come from?

Well if I'm getting this right,

It came from Iran and Persia area which was influenced by Zoroastrianism and that's something I haven't studied either and I haven't even,

If you just keep going back and back and back.

I think it's pretty mystical religion,

Isn't it?

I don't know anything really about Zoroastrianism but I just thought,

I'm always interested in the origin of things and tracing back as far.

When you go back far enough,

You realize that one thing that they all have in common including the traditional Abrahamic religion is that they're all vegetarians.

Huh,

I'm trying to think of in the Bible now.

So for example in India,

Many of my students when I was teaching at UCLA,

Many of my students came from India and they were born vegetarian because their family go back many many generations were all vegetarians because they believe that they're the descendants of the Brahmin king.

Ah,

Okay.

And if they're not vegetarians,

They can never go back.

So they,

You know,

A lot of times when they don't cross marry between caste is because they're kind of a generic pool,

You know,

They believe the purity of the generic pool.

And so many of them are vegetarians.

So the Jainism,

You mentioned the Jainism,

The Jainism,

They are vegetarian to the extreme where they wouldn't even eat potato.

Any root vegetable they won't eat because they believe that by eating them you're actually killing.

And that's another thing I want to talk about when I say the intent.

So that really affects the karma.

You know,

There's a classic thing is if you're walking and you step on an ant and don't see it then it's not going to have a karmic bearing.

But if you deliberately go out and say I want to kill that for this reason,

That's going to have an effect.

Same way with like,

Even if things are small it's washing out your bowl.

If it has little food scraps,

If you toss that on the ground,

This is in the sutas,

With the intent to help the insects live and carry on life,

That could have positive benefits compared to just mind-sleeving.

It's all mental.

It's all mental relation.

So just because you didn't actually hurt anyone just thinking about it already causes bad karma.

Possibly,

But then again,

That's a tricky question too because when we talk about not self-teachings,

Well who actually had that thought?

How do we discern between,

Well sometimes if we're meditating and this thought pops into our heads like,

Well I didn't think that,

Where did that come from?

That's silly.

Things like that happen.

You're like,

I wouldn't have thought that.

Why is that thought there?

Well let me finish with the vegetarian story.

So the Christians are,

Many of the Christians are vegetarians.

The 12 Adventists,

They're vegetarians.

Why is that?

Well what are the things that the 12th day Adventists do?

Well first of all,

They worship on Saturday,

Sabbath,

The day of Sabbath.

Because Sunday was the first day of the week.

Sunday was the day that God created the earth and the air and all that.

Sunday was the day.

Saturday was the day of rest.

No Saturday is the day of rest.

One of the days was nothing.

So I thought that was the Sunday.

Yeah Saturday,

Sabbatical.

That's what it means.

It's the seventh day.

It's the day of rest.

So when I was a professor,

You know,

We take sabbatical every seven years.

That's where the word comes from.

So how did it become Sunday?

Well because when Christianity was taken to Europe,

And at first all the Christians were killed,

They were got thrown into the lion.

But eventually the king,

One of the kings decided that he wants to promote that religion.

But at that time,

The worship of a sun god was very important.

So he kind of changed that.

So that the day of worship was a Sunday,

Just so that people can adopt.

But Constantine and the Council of Nicaea.

But if you read the Bible,

The book of Genesis talks about how on the sixth day,

God created Adam,

And he gave him very specific instructions.

Because all along,

There was a distinction between creating plants that have fruit and plants that were just grain.

And or just grass.

So he gave very specific instructions.

He says,

Those fruits are for you.

That's grains and grass for the animals.

And the animals are your friend.

So now don't eat them.

Well then there's the interpretation that you're the caretaker of the,

Or masters over the animal life.

So in the breath in the Bible,

That's how man was created in the Bible,

Right?

And how important that is in Buddhism as well,

Right?

So that's a very fascinating topic.

But we're winding down here.

And also,

I just wanted for anybody,

If it's listening that's first time,

Master Jiru,

The very first question is the abbot and monk and venerable and chief at Mid America Buddhist Association where sometimes I practice and study.

And he's got temples all over the place too,

Right,

Denny?

You described the last time as our mutual Dharma master as well.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

I got distracted.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So he has,

That's right.

The Buddhist teaching is such that they don't call it their home.

It's not a home.

So it's not like he belongs to a temple.

It's not that.

In fact,

The Chinese word for his presence comes from two characters.

One has to do with the stick that they carry.

And the other one has to do with like,

It's almost like the same word that we use when we used to have the Pony Express.

And you take,

So there's always these stops that you have to make.

Like a relay.

Yeah,

The relay.

So the idea is that he's walking around with his Dharma stick.

And he's just making temporary stops.

Okay.

So the one,

So when we say Maba,

Which is what Josh is most familiar with,

It's the place where he happened to be today.

But it's not his permanent home.

He'll be the first one to tell you that he has no permanent home.

Okay.

But having said that,

He actually is the abbot for three other temples.

Two of them is in Chicago.

One of them is in San Francisco,

Where I often go before the pandemic,

Of course.

But then he regularly teaches in four other temples.

So yeah.

I see.

Taiwan is one of them.

Taiwan,

Texas,

China,

Malaysia,

Various places.

He traveled.

He used to travel,

I would tell you,

Back the days when he traveled,

I would say this.

I would say he spent one third of his time in St.

Louis.

And almost 98% of that one third is he's a farmer,

Basically.

Oh,

Handyman,

He's too busy working.

Because that's his practice.

I tell you what,

The teachings I got through that through him,

I can't really even describe.

So it seems a little silly,

But it's- I have to tell you,

First time I arrived in St.

Louis,

He hasn't finished that Blue Lotus house yet.

Yeah.

And I didn't quite know anyone.

So he saw me doing this.

He said,

Well,

I need to put this guy to work.

So he gave me this sander.

And then he said,

Okay,

Send this down.

But don't make it too smooth.

And so I'm like sanding and sanding and then my hands are vibrating.

And then I have to stop and touch,

Make sure it's not too smooth.

And in retrospect,

He was teaching me the mindfulness of the feeling.

You weren't trying to turn that into a mirror,

Were you?

Yeah.

Classic.

Anyway,

Yeah,

Yeah.

Well,

I really enjoyed this,

Josh.

Like what you did.

Another good one.

Another good one.

Another good one.

All right.

And we'll see you and see you all next month.

Next month?

Last Tuesday of the month,

I think.

That's how we are now.

Yes.

Last time we weren't sure.

Okay.

Thank you,

Josh.

Thank you for spending time with me.

Well,

And thanks for recording this and putting out the documents and invites.

Appreciate it.

Okay.

Bye,

Denny.

Bye.

Bye.