Honor, Respect, And Belonging | Mindful Q&A W/ Wendy #27

This is the twenty-seventh session of our ongoing live series with Wendy Nash, exploring meditation practices both on and off the cushion. While the following topics resonate to varying degrees with all of us, we focus on the more traditionally masculine themes of honor and respect as well as briefly touch on self-worth as associated with the feminine. We also planned to discuss the impulses behind craving, attachment, and clinging to the compulsion to convince others that "I’m right" but didn't really get to that. We talk about themes of inclusion, exclusion, belonging, and the landscape of identity as well as field questions about chaos, order, war, peace, introversion, extroversion, silence, necessary / lesser of two "evils", etc

Transcript

Today I'm joined once again by Wendy Nash.

Wendy,

What's going on?

G'day,

I'm calling from Queensland.

G'day,

I've never actually opened with that before.

No,

You haven't.

I'm here on Gubbi Gubbi Country in Queensland,

In Caboolture,

And so it's interesting to talk about today's episode.

I'm really looking forward to it.

You are in Korea at the moment.

Yes,

South Korea,

Yes.

Usually just saying Korea too.

Yeah,

First time in Asia entirely,

And this is one time when Wendy and I are actually only an hour apart in time zone,

So that's pretty cool,

I think.

Getting ready to go on retreat here in a couple of days for a month-long silent offline retreat,

So I'm definitely looking forward to that.

I've been wanting to have that opportunity for quite some time,

And now it's finally arrived,

And I'm a little bit giddy in a sense,

But Wendy talked about something before the show too,

About how that's only one little portion of formal practice,

Right?

Our meditation practice extends into our everyday lives,

No matter what we're doing or not doing,

So the formal practice is just one little section of it,

And today,

Though,

We're going to be,

The title I have,

We have here is Honor,

Respect,

Worthiness,

And Belonging,

And I've got this,

The 27th session of our ongoing live series with Wendy Nash,

Exploring Meditation Practices,

Both on and off the cushion.

While the following topics resonate to varying degrees with all of us,

We'd like to focus on the more traditionally masculine themes of honor and respect,

As well as self-worth as associated with the feminine.

We also plan to discuss the impulses behind craving,

Attachment,

And clinging to the compulsion to convince others that I'm right,

As well as themes of inclusion,

Exclusion,

Belonging,

And the complex landscape of identity,

And then,

You know,

Wendy texts me this earlier,

And she says,

I'm currently looking at self-worth in terms of accepting self and other,

The anatomy of the mind,

The desire to persuade others that you're right,

And the awful sorrow that arises when you know you've been excluded from the group,

And how that connects to self-worth and identity.

I like this term,

Anatomy of the mind.

That's a very good way to put it.

So where should we start,

Wendy?

Well,

You're in Korea,

And you know,

You're,

You've been moving around a lot,

So I guess maybe something about your,

How do you manage your practice?

How do you remain respectful of other cultures,

Your own imprint on the world,

Particularly as an American,

Traveling around,

You know,

It's quite politically,

There's a lot going on in that space.

So yeah,

How are you using your practice to be respectful,

Mindful,

Heartfelt,

As a male American traveling all over the world?

Might I say even white male American,

Right?

Yeah,

Well,

That's true.

So let's define,

You know,

I was looking this up,

Just,

It's good to have a dictionary definition,

And honor and respect are very close to each other.

So honor is high respect,

Great esteem,

And it's also adherence to what is right to a conventional standard of conduct,

You know,

To regard with someone,

To regard with great respect,

To fulfill an obligation or keep it in agreement,

And respect means a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities,

Qualities,

Or achievements,

And due regards for the feelings,

Wishes,

Rights,

Or traditions of others,

And of course,

A verb,

Admire someone or something deeply as a result of their abilities,

Qualities,

Or achievements.

So yeah,

So this is particularly challenging,

I find.

First off,

How much do I honor and respect myself,

You know,

There were times in my life where I actually just absolutely loathed and hated and despised myself,

You know,

And it's not helpful,

You know,

But there's a way to do it,

To be honest about it,

And not lie to yourself either.

So yeah,

There's so much to say,

It's hard to know,

But in the context of traveling here in Korea,

I would say,

You know,

Well,

One thing that actually helps me and hinders me is not knowing the language,

Right,

Not knowing the language,

But also being in an international community where it's really no problem because everybody speaks English,

So it's a great learning opportunity,

And I think a lot of it is just observing,

You know,

And you know,

As an American,

Maybe I spiritual bypass or something like this,

But I just tell people right away,

And I haven't got asked that much,

Is that politics are an emotional con game,

So I kind of opt out of all of that,

And I don't really associate,

Yes,

I'm from America,

Yes,

I have that kind of imprint and baggage,

A lot of baggage,

And I'm just not interested in the very,

In the least bit of all the shenanigans going on in the political arena.

Maybe my fiancé is more interested in that type of thing than me,

And so regardless of what puppet is in there,

You know,

The left or the right,

Everyone is,

Even them are worthy of our honor and respect,

And I know it's challenging sometimes,

And that's a high thing to achieve,

And I think some people may be more worthy of honor and respect than others,

However,

I've heard this saying that,

You know,

Every time I honor another,

I set a part of myself free,

So it's a good practice to look at someone and find out,

What can I honor here,

You know,

What can I respect,

When I have the mindfulness and resources to do so,

Because,

You know,

A lot of times it just,

It's not available.

Another strategy I found to help with this is,

Okay,

Someone is just completely different for me,

And I don't mean cultures here,

I mean someone that can be very similar looking,

Similar backgrounds,

And they just happen to be into something completely different than myself,

And so in those cases,

I can say,

Okay,

I see and honor your Buddha nature or your divinity or whatever we want to use,

But that's just not for me,

You know,

And so I can still have a degree of honor and respect in some regards that everybody is worthy of well-being,

Everyone's worthy of love,

But maybe they're engaging in something I just don't have any interest in,

So I can still be honorable and respectful,

But again,

I fall away short of this a lot of times too.

So yes,

Wendy,

How do you see this playing out,

You know,

In your life,

And maybe with the masculine in general,

I think this is more of a challenge for men to,

You know,

I don't know,

I could be wrong about that,

But we see a lot of disrespect in the world,

You know,

We see a lot of people lacking honor,

Giving and receiving,

And you know,

What's the importance of this even?

Well,

You know,

You said what does honor and respect mean,

And I always like to go to the etymology of the word,

So the actual core,

The root of the word in its origin,

To understand the word because that's,

It really makes a huge difference into what does the word actually mean,

And so honor means,

It comes from glory,

Renowned,

And fame earned,

Actually.

So that's the original,

It comes from the old French,

Anglo-French,

Honor.

So,

And it's also to do with distinction,

Position,

Victory,

And triumph.

So it has something which says,

I'm above you,

I guess,

In that way.

So,

But when I look at respect,

That's a completely different etymology.

So,

Re,

As in again,

And spect,

As in look.

So it's the act of looking back.

So self-respect,

Actually self-respect is sort of a contradiction,

Or what do you call it,

A tautology,

Where you are saying the same thing twice,

Because- Redundant.

Thank you.

A tautology,

I think,

A tautology is,

Wait,

That's it.

So that's,

You're basically saying you're looking back.

So the meanings,

Feeling of esteem,

Excited by actions or attributes of somebody or something,

Is from the 1850s onwards,

But the beginning of it is actually about the relationship,

How you look,

The consideration.

So it's more,

I'm,

It's an act of me moving towards the person and how do I see them,

And considering that person,

Whereas honor is more,

I deserve honor.

And I guess that's why you call it honor killings,

Or that whole death before dishonor,

I saw somebody on his arm at the truck,

You know,

The big truck hanging out the window is death before dishonor.

I thought,

Oh,

Sounds a bit grim to me.

So that's what I would say.

So the question for me is,

Do I respect myself?

In which case,

Or how do I see myself in order to understand how I respond to another person?

So it's very dharmic in that response.

And how do I honor people?

And now I understand why I find the word honor very confusing,

Because I've always felt it's a bit weird and a bit,

Why would I be honor and obey?

What is that?

That sounds just some horrible,

Hideous way of behaving,

Treating people.

You have to honor me because what,

You know,

I've got some victory.

I don't know.

I just think.

And it's also that definition,

At least in the kind of Anglo-American perhaps,

Or,

You know,

Latinized or whatever we want to say it,

It has a lot to do with war,

You know.

And that etymology that you read,

It seems very warlike,

You know,

Gaining it through battle.

But I mean,

And to me,

That's not very honorable to kill another,

You know,

And to then see that as honorable.

But,

You know,

It's a good point in the respect looking back.

It also brings to mind,

Like,

Reflection,

Right?

And also retrospection.

So seeing things in retrospection,

Review,

Maybe as well.

So I just,

I kind of see a lot of the feminine way,

Excelling way better than,

Not that we need to compare anything,

But your beautiful definition of respect there,

It hits the nail on the head.

And,

You know,

It's a really good thing to,

These first impressions we see of people,

Right?

And how that can inform our view and how we interact with them,

Even just from a first impression,

And how much I'm going to kind of come with maybe judgments out of habits,

And,

Or even judge myself for having those judgments.

So sometimes there's something to that,

And sometimes it's not,

I think sometimes it's just habit patterns.

Yeah,

The honor thing,

I would say,

Yeah,

I don't,

It's like,

Well,

Is it earned?

You know,

Do I,

Does someone need to earn honor?

And then if they do,

How do they earn that?

And do the,

I don't know if it's healthy to demand someone honor another,

You know?

Then again,

You know,

How much value is there in respect?

You know,

Every,

I think even dignity is a prerequisite before we even consider some of these things.

Dignity,

You know,

It's another one,

But.

Oh,

Wendy,

Let's see,

Your audio dropped out.

I'm here,

It's my fault.

Okay,

So we've got some people online.

We have Ms.

Reed,

As usual.

Thank you very much for joining us.

I hope you're on the treadmill today,

As usual.

Davesa asks,

What is the topic?

And honor and respect and a whole lot of other things too.

And Mr.

Potato says,

I'm gay.

So I'm not sure how that works with honor and respect,

But.

And I wonder if Mr.

Potato is a troll or being sincere or what,

But either way,

Hello and welcome.

Yes.

Yes.

Okay.

The other one topic we were going to talk about is belonging to just so the other topic we have in there.

So honor,

Respect,

Self-worth and belonging.

Yes.

Yeah.

So the other one,

The other thing I wanted to say is respect means to look again,

Not to look back.

I got that one wrong because retrospect is to look back.

That's right.

Yes.

Respect means to look and re means again.

Yes.

Yeah.

So just to do that.

So that's where I got.

So I think it is,

I think,

You know,

Just to respect,

There is something about having a sense of dignity,

I guess,

In both of those.

And how do you live with dignity?

Yeah.

How do you use the Dharma?

How do you use the,

Or maybe use is not quite right,

Utilitarian.

Yeah.

As dignity.

Now,

Davaza has asked,

Would you classify as pure enlightenment?

What would classify as pure enlightenment?

Oh my goodness.

Well,

First off,

What is the tainted enlightenment?

So pure enlightenment,

That's an interesting way to put it.

Cause I don't know.

And I was just thinking about respect in regards to disrespect.

You know,

I think we all know,

Uh,

Maybe due to negativity bias,

What disrespect is,

But,

Um,

Pure enlightenment,

You know,

This is a classic question.

So we can just set aside the pure maybe,

And just talk about it.

You know,

Enlightenment,

It's a really kind of a hot button topic,

Maybe a buzzword,

A trigger word in spirituality too.

I've got mixed feelings about the term and,

Uh,

But actually I'll throw it to Wendy here to,

To start on that if she wants.

Um,

You know,

I think it's just total clear seeing there you are.

And when I'm there,

I will let you know whether I was right or wrong.

So I,

You know,

I think if when you're in that space,

Then I think you can answer the question,

But there's a lot of people who think they are enlightened and they've just had a experience or whatever,

And they've now got a whole identity with it.

So this was actually something that I was looking more into,

Which is where the self-worth question came in,

But that's for later if you like.

Yes,

Please.

Yes.

And so this is a good point.

Uh,

Now there's,

There's kind of two extremes on this enlightenment thing.

Uh,

And I,

I was going to say the exact same thing when you said,

When I'm,

When I'm certain that I can get back to you,

But right now I can only speculate from where I am.

Right.

But I do see these kinds of extremes on this and Wendy,

I don't say she did an extreme here,

But there's this notion that,

Oh,

It's,

It's beyond me.

That's it's impossible.

It's,

It's kind of almost a joke because so,

So many of us are so far behind,

But I will say that,

Um,

I have witnessed,

Uh,

You know,

Certain practitioners that seem to,

You know,

Even though I can't really define enlightenment,

I would say they're a lot closer perhaps than a vast majority of people not to compare anything.

But on the other hand,

Like when,

Um,

You know,

On,

On the other hand,

You know,

It's,

Uh,

So yeah,

So we got one extreme saying it's not possible,

You know,

But the other hand is some people go and say,

Oh,

You know,

They claim enlightenment right away.

So actually it does help to have a definition for this,

But I don't know what it is.

And in a way to nail it down to,

I think doesn't do it a total service anyway.

Uh,

Maybe one way to approach this is,

Um,

Kind of the relative and the absolute,

You know,

In the Buddhist tradition,

One would say it's an attainment of the Bhana or realizing not,

Not necessarily an attainment,

But realizing the Bhana or realizing the unconditioned,

You know,

The unaliening,

The,

Um,

You know,

The deathless.

So there's all these synonyms for it and you can't really say what it is directly.

You can kind of point towards it,

You know,

And we have these things,

Notions of sudden enlightenment and gradual cultivation.

Uh,

One of the things they say is,

You know,

Uh,

Enlightenment's an accident and meditation helps you become accident prone.

Um,

Of course the word light is in there.

So,

But then I've heard other people who have been dubbed arhats,

You know,

Um,

Awakened,

Fully awakened,

That's,

Um,

That it's beyond this notion of inner light.

You know,

Uh,

It's not,

It's beyond this,

Uh,

People talk about non-duality.

So there's so many things to say about it,

But at the end of the day,

I,

I'm not there yet.

So,

I mean,

I can,

You know,

This could be multiple shows in and of itself,

But at the end of the day,

Wendy and I aren't an authority on this.

So I would,

I would,

Um,

Encourage people to seek out those who are closer to that than,

Than we are,

If I may speak for Wendy too.

Yeah,

I,

Um,

I think that's right.

You know,

So Deveza says easy to claim when we don't fully understand it,

You know,

And I think,

I think there is some truth to that.

Oh yeah.

And clear seeing,

I like that.

And understanding it's almost like a realization though,

You know,

It's not a cognitive thing,

Although cognition can be involved with,

And then there's supposedly people who have reached it,

But they can't explain it.

They can't teach,

They can't say anything because,

You know,

It doesn't do its service.

They're just like,

If you hear these stories of people that are just like everyday people,

But they,

They can't really teach about it,

You know?

So,

Yeah.

Uh,

And then there's these notions of liberation,

You know,

Is that different than enlightenment?

Um,

Uh,

Awakening,

Awakening,

Is that different than liberation and enlightenment?

So these are,

Um,

Kind of complex questions.

Maybe they're splitting hairs,

Maybe there's significant differences,

But yeah,

I,

Maybe we can get her,

Uh,

Definition of it if,

If you'd like,

If you,

If you know what it is.

Yeah.

Uh,

What's,

What was her name?

Deveza.

Deveza.

Deveza.

That's a cool name.

Um,

So whether it's a man or woman,

We don't know.

Um,

Yeah.

So,

And Ms.

Reid was,

Seemed happy with the,

Um,

Definition that we gave.

Okay,

Cool.

Yeah.

I,

I think,

Um,

Yeah.

So what,

What were our topics again today?

Exactly.

So let's get back to the playbook.

No,

This is,

This,

Just so you know,

This is a meditation Q and A,

So this is encouraged to just spontaneously ask questions.

That's great.

We'll field them if we can.

The only reason I have a,

Um,

Topic ahead of time is because we don't usually get as many questions as I'd like.

So please,

Yeah,

Please keep in with the questions.

Um,

So I think the next topic we can go on to is this self-worth and this is what you wrote about to me too,

Right?

Self-worth and,

Uh,

Belonging,

You know,

And I,

I think,

Go ahead.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So,

So Deveza is a man,

Just so you know.

Um,

So what I,

So actually I think it ties into this question,

Deveza's question about what is enlightenment.

So one of the things that I've been looking at is self-worth in,

And it's about this sense of,

You know,

When you feel,

You know,

When you have been excluded from the group,

You know,

You absolutely know.

And yeah,

And you,

It feels awful.

There's this deep sorrow and you go,

Well,

I'm going to go and find somebody else to play,

Take my bat and ball and go and find somebody else,

Or go and play over here,

Or I'm going to do my own thing.

And it's extremely painful.

And there is a desire to,

You know,

You can't go towards that group.

We're done with that.

And it's just such an awful feeling.

And it really corrodes the sense of self-worth.

I feel it absolutely eats away at our sense of being,

Because we have this understanding about,

If we are excluded,

We are not,

We have nothing,

What I have to offer is not valued,

It's not wanted.

And so I think it sits there.

But my sense is,

If we can allow that sorrow to be experienced and to feel into that,

That being excluded and how awful it is.

So this is not a lighthearted practice.

This is only if you have a really strong sense of love in your life,

Because if you don't have a lot of love and space coming from other people,

You're in a really supportive environment,

I think you could probably go mad.

So what my sense is,

Is that you feel,

If there's a way that to feel this sorrow,

And then allow it to be so that it no longer is something that you fear.

And you try and distance yourself from,

Because it's that distancing yourself from it that sort of brings the identity,

The self and other into process.

By allowing yourself to feel it,

Which is extremely painful,

Then there's nothing to fear.

And then you're,

Whether you're included or excluded,

It actually doesn't make any difference,

Because you haven't,

Don't have that fear.

So that's where I am.

That's what that meant.

I hope I answered that question that I wrote text.

Yeah.

It's brilliant.

And this notion that we're just not conditioned to turn towards something,

Face it directly and feel it and just be with it.

And because a lot of times it is unpleasant and painful even.

However,

The only way through it,

Or the only way past it is through it.

You have to go into it and through it,

In my experience as well.

Now,

If it's so overwhelming,

We don't have to do it all at once,

Right?

And another thing that came up with this is,

This is also conducive to authenticity,

Because if we don't want to face it and be with it and go through this unpleasant feeling of being excluded,

Then I'm going to set it aside.

And then I'm going to pretend and take on fake things that aren't,

That don't resonate with me,

That aren't aligned with me and come up with something inauthentic in order to fake my way into belonging.

But it's not based on anything.

It's a house of cards,

You know,

And I get it,

You know,

It's just a human drive to want to fit in and belong.

I think we have these deep fears of being excluded from groups and then we will die because we won't be supported or have what we need to get by.

But that's just not the case,

You know.

I feel we're always going to get exactly what we need,

Exactly when we need it.

And even if we look at where we do belong,

You know,

Where we feel a sense of belonging,

We're not always going to feel that way.

We're going to have these senses of,

You know,

Something happens,

I might have said something,

Someone else might have said something,

I might not want to do something or might have a different opinion,

Something might happen and then I don't feel a degree of belonging,

Like a spectrum,

Than I did at other times.

So we'll see how this kind of ebbs and flows and sometimes I feel like more I belong,

Sometimes I don't,

You know.

So I think it's almost impossible to not feel belonging but also to always feel belonging.

So I think this spectrum is going to come up.

But another thing that really helps is just being authentic and the more I can be real and just be natural and whatever that may mean or just experiment with what that's like,

Then we're going to kind of attract people that,

You know,

That we align with or that we resonate with and or will be drawn towards those people.

And some of us do better in bigger groups and some of us do better in smaller groups.

Some of us do good with just a friend or two,

You know,

And they feel belonging maybe in nature or we feel belonging with guys a lot of times.

It's with activities,

You know,

Things we have in common,

Things we share and maybe the feminine bonds more on,

You know,

More emotional relationships,

Right?

More kind of heart-to-heart,

Intimate relationships or I'm not exactly sure,

But guys,

It's fairly,

You know,

Juvenile,

Sometimes almost juvenile on surface level.

It's just like,

Oh,

You like what I like?

Okay,

Let's hang out in this,

You know,

We're cool.

So it's not,

I mean,

It's uncomplicated,

But it's also kind of surface level a lot of times.

But it is an important human thing and I hear this more in meditation circles more and more,

But this sense of belonging,

You know.

Yeah,

I think for guys,

Some guys are very sensitive and very articulate and I was just talking with a friend of mine on Sunday and she said,

My boy,

He's about 12,

She's Chinese,

Got a Chinese background,

Her English is very good,

But his is already surpassed hers.

He's 12,

He's highly intelligent,

He's very articulate.

And she goes,

I don't actually understand the words he uses anymore.

So I think often guys have maybe not quite such strong language skills as girls and it sits there.

Now,

Before I go on,

I just want to say two things.

Davesa says,

You need to choose,

You need chaos to balance peace and vice versa.

And Ms.

Reed says,

Wendy,

Josh,

And I don't know what that means.

We've got a thumbs up.

I don't know what that's for.

I would just guess that she's referring to what we just said about belonging.

Yeah,

Yes.

Yeah,

You know,

And this is another good point about introverted and extroverted styles too.

And I would agree with Wendy that on a whole that females or the feminine has a greater capacity and what's a fancy word here,

Proclivity towards language.

And see my vocabulary in that comes out when I'm around people that have a higher capacity and,

You know,

Wieldiness for language.

But when I'm just hanging out,

All that just kind of goes away.

I kind of was a book nerd and a language nerd and the password nerd.

So that's why I have a little bit of skills,

But my foreign language skills,

You know,

Not so much.

So yeah,

On the whole though,

It just,

I think the females working vocabulary in general all the time is just higher than guys.

And it just makes sense.

You know,

It's,

It's no really good or bad.

It's just a different difference.

And yeah.

So,

So introvert,

Extrovert,

Introverts seem to have need time alone to recharge.

So belonging with introverts,

I think might be a little bit different than extroverts.

Extroverts kind of thrive on being around people and just talking and being in social situations.

Right.

And then there's an ambivert or mesialvert that's kind of in the middle.

I would say maybe when I was more introverted,

I kind of really get into nerd things,

Like really specific things.

And then you could connect on these activities that are kind of more internal.

So spending more time,

A sense of belonging,

Maybe more in the mind and what activity I'm doing and the things connected to that.

And then when you get around people that also share the same enthusiasm while extroverts are just like to be maybe seen and heard more or just interact,

Meet just people in general.

I don't know if I'm getting any of this right,

But I'm wondering if there's any significant,

But at the end of the day,

It's a feeling,

Right?

This sense of belonging is a feeling.

Yeah.

Either we feel it or we don't.

We feel excluded.

We feel like we belong or we don't.

Usually it's more noticeable when we don't feel we belong somewhere.

Yeah.

I just want to address a couple of things.

So I go on to introverts and extroverts because I have a different kind of way of looking at it,

But I'm just conscious that Taveza has said,

Has talked about balancing peace and vice versa.

I heard it was about what's the definition of peace?

And this was by a UN conflict zone kind of person.

What's the difference?

What does sort of Anglo,

UN and UK and Australian American kind of ideas of peace?

And that is not having conflict or not having difference,

You know,

Not arguing.

It's quiet.

But in,

He said in the rest of the world,

Peace is a place where that people,

Everybody lives with dignity,

Which is a deep perspective.

So I thought that was a more useful definition because it's not about the absence,

But it's saying,

Well,

This is what we have.

Everybody lives with dignity.

And until you have that,

You actually never have peace because I guess it fits in with that thing about self-worth.

So going into introversion and extroversion,

I think of it differently.

I've heard your definitions before,

But I,

I'm a very extroverted person,

But I am not interested in parties or socializing.

I have to go to networking events because I have a community group.

I try and avoid parties and I'm really dislike all that sort of stuff.

I find it all too much,

But I would say the,

An extrovert is the person who makes the first bid for contact.

So go up to somebody,

Hi,

How are you going?

Now somebody can learn to do that as an introvert,

You can learn to do that.

And that's Barack Obama.

That's apparently what he does.

But,

And so what they've found with the introvert and extrovert is that,

So people,

Somebody who is introverted is somebody who will wait for the other to come towards them.

And thinking about that people,

And I don't wait,

I always go,

Hi,

How are you going?

Usually I do that too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I think you're,

I think you're actually very extroverted.

Now I am.

Yeah.

I used to not be like that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what they've found is that when you,

When you get introverts and you say behave more extroverted,

They go,

Well,

It's a bit of a push.

It's not my natural position,

But I can do it.

You know,

It's okay.

I can do it.

But when you do extroverts and you say,

Okay,

Now you socially withdraw,

You become more introverted.

It kind of crushes their soul and it erodes their self-esteem.

And I think it's to do with this whole idea of feeling excluded and not feeling able to contribute what I have to offer isn't valued.

So I think that's a bit more there.

That's what I think.

Yeah.

That's really even better put way better put,

I think actually.

And,

Uh,

This is why a silent meditation retreat is great for more extroverted people,

Because then that's the rule.

Nobody's going to get to,

To go up and do any kind of initiating,

You know,

Uh,

Contact and,

And,

And speaking.

So,

However,

There's still that sense of belonging are part of the group,

But communication will then be in a different style,

Other than verbal,

You know,

Won't stop the body language.

It won't stop the inner energetic interactions that people have around each other.

Uh,

And actually in my experience,

A lot of times those become more amplified because still wanting to communicate,

But I can't do it through language.

So these other more subtle realms that I don't normally pay attention to because language can be so powerful and overriding these things that now be able to tune in more to body language and energy and emotions perhaps.

Um,

So now going back to what you said about,

Uh,

I think both of those definitions of peace are good,

You know?

And,

Uh,

So what is the opposite of peace?

And some might say war.

And it's interesting.

He's,

Um,

The,

The commenter is linking it to chaos.

So I see,

I don't know about that because chaos,

I think is also,

Uh,

The opposite of that would be kind of order,

You know?

So,

Uh,

So are we linking,

You know,

Should we be linking,

Uh,

Peace and order together?

Uh,

Sometimes,

Yes,

I'd say sometimes maybe not and chaos and war or violence.

And I think sometimes they do link together,

But not all the time,

You know,

We can have internal chaos and still be completely peaceful.

And,

You know,

Um,

There can be war and there can be in violence and it can be very orderly.

You know,

We look at some things in the past and,

You know,

It's frightening.

So I think it's,

It's helpful to kind of suss these things out and see when they might be linked together,

You know,

When they might be opposites,

When they might be,

Uh,

Polarity and,

Uh,

In opposition to each other.

And when they're,

They just don't connect at all,

You know,

Um,

Of course some people start chaos,

Some people start violence,

Some people work towards peace and some people,

You know,

Work towards order,

Um,

And harmony.

So,

Yeah,

I just wanted to point that out.

Yeah.

Yeah,

But I think,

I'm not sure I entirely agree with your definition that the opposite,

I,

Because I look at Davetsa's comment,

Um,

As actually very insightful because I go,

When you have peace,

It's,

It's a,

It's actually a dynamic space and kind of has a little bit of elasticity and it's not chaotic,

But it is,

It does,

It feels within a bound of movement.

Whereas chaos is where it's sort of,

You're trying to maybe crunch things down to be so ordered that there's this external things,

Um,

That are unable to be controlled and that's what creates the chaos.

So Davetsa has said,

That's what I meant,

Introspective,

Introspectively,

It kind of falls apart collectively compared to individually.

Now,

Let me read that again because I just need to understand that.

He's cleverer than me.

All right.

Uh,

Introspectively,

It kind of falls apart collectively compared to individually.

Perhaps you can answer that one.

I would just ask to elaborate on that too,

Um,

Because now we're,

Now we're throwing all these complicated ideas into,

Um,

Introspection,

Extrospection and collectivity and individuality.

So yeah,

These are multiple layers on layers and I'm trying to,

Um,

Yeah,

To,

To,

To parse some things out here.

So yeah,

These are all different layers and levels we can look at,

Um,

Things like this on.

So yes,

Uh,

And Wendy's idea though,

Of,

Um,

Let me just remove the,

Uh,

The comment here of,

Um,

This notion of chaos.

I think this is something interesting to explore because I,

I,

I never really looked at it like that when you're,

You're trying to have order and it actually creates chaos,

You know?

So in a way these are,

Um,

I don't know if we'd say they're polarity or opposition,

But,

Um,

I think we all know what chaos is in our lives,

Right?

Now how it comes about,

I'm not so,

Um,

Certain,

But when it's there,

It's,

It's in contrast to,

Um,

I guess order or lack of chaos,

Right?

And chaos can,

At least in my experience,

It seems like it can be more conducive towards conflict and other than peace,

You know,

I don't think it always has to be,

But,

Um,

I know it seems like some people thrive on chaos and some people become almost debilitated by chaos,

You know?

Um,

Sometimes chaos can stir things up,

Uh,

And then allow others to come in and then impose more order or like Wendy's saying,

You know,

Uh,

Maybe there's a little bit too much order and then the opposition to that or the polarity to that is,

Is just kind of expected that it will,

You know,

Have the other effect.

Um,

So,

Yeah.

I was just thinking about,

Uh,

There's a guy,

Um,

He'd be older than me,

Probably in his 70s,

I think,

And he's been around forever and a day and he,

He's quite well known in Australia.

His name's Dick Smith and he,

He had some electronic stores when we were younger,

Uh,

That got sold out,

But he,

He would sit down and he would have the television on,

The radio on,

He would have a book open and he would be incredibly productive.

I would just,

That to me would be chaos.

I would need to make all of that silent and make it go away.

But for him,

That was peace.

So it's an interesting kind of idea.

It really is.

And I,

I would really like to talk to him and see what that is about because now there's some,

I'm the same way as Wendy.

Usually there's some exceptions though.

There's a thing where I can just say,

Okay,

Well I can only focus on one thing at a time.

However,

The background,

The,

We call it like the unconscious mind,

Supposedly some say we'll remember everything.

We might not always have access to it.

So if we're trying to take in a lot of stuff in the background unconsciously maybe,

But you know that in a way it's kind of pointless.

Another one that people do is they,

They turn on a sporting event,

Right?

We used to do this when I was a kid,

We'd turn on the baseball game on the TV,

But we'd turn the volume down and we'd listen to the announcer on the radio because the announcer on the radio has to work way harder because he's talking to people without that available image where,

You know,

The people on TV,

They're not vocally as adept as those doing it on the radio.

So,

Yeah,

But,

But yeah.

So Ms.

Reed has said,

So is chaos a problem?

Create problem to find solution.

Gosh,

That sounds like my local counselor,

To be honest.

He's like always creating dramas in order to be the one to come in and rescue the situation.

I'm sure we know other people around who are like that.

So is,

So is chaos a problem?

Create the problem to find a solution.

But the way is put,

The way it's put here,

Chaos to balance is interesting,

But when you know the context of it,

Then you can go from there.

So did you get that?

By the way,

Did you understand?

Yep.

Well,

So is,

So is chaos a problem?

Well,

That,

You know,

That depends,

You know,

Does it always have to be,

Or you know,

Can it,

Can it be okay?

Because we're going to face chaos no matter what.

So what do we do with it,

Right?

Do we flip out and add more chaos or do we,

Do we have a solution or what are our strategies for dealing with it?

Create,

So this create a problem to find a solution.

So this is a classic thing.

It's called problem reaction solution.

So some people say that there's a problem in the world,

Right?

But they claim that actually that that's not an organic problem.

It's not a natural problem.

It's actually been orchestrated and engineered by those who want to cause that problem.

And what they need is a reaction from the public.

Oh my gosh,

Can you believe so-and-so I can't believe this.

Something should be done about it.

We have to do something about this.

And then that,

And the people that create the problems that,

Oh yeah,

A matter of fact,

We have the solution waiting in the wings.

All we needed was the reaction to it,

You know,

So they'll artificially create a problem,

Wait for the reaction,

And then they have a prescribed solution already waiting that they had planned while they're creating the problem itself.

So this is called problem reaction solution.

I don't know if it's the Hegelian dialectic or not,

But that might be something different.

So I don't know if that's what she's referring to,

But,

But okay.

And then the next thing is,

But the way it's put here,

Chaos to balance is interesting,

But when you know the context of it,

Then you can go from there.

So that's right.

So there's many flavors of chaos,

Right?

So what's surrounding the chaos,

You know,

Where does it come from?

What kind of effect is it having?

You know,

What all is involved in the chaos?

And then how are people viewing it and responding to it?

And what are people doing about it?

You know,

And what kind of effective,

You know,

How effective are they in their view and response to the said chaos,

You know?

Yeah.

So these are some things around this.

So Devesa says,

Sometimes it's a necessary evil.

I'm not,

I'm trying to think back to what that was.

That was,

I think about the chaos,

I'm assuming.

And then Ms.

Reid has said,

No,

Chaos is not a problem.

It's a cop-out for drama to thrive,

Not a fan at all.

Well,

I'm with you on that one.

Yeah.

And I would,

I think a necessary evil,

This phrase,

I don't know where it came from.

I'd like to look up the origins of this because is evil ever necessary?

First,

You have to define what evil is,

But I think this is a retrospective excuse for things that aren't skillful in the that,

Oh,

It's a necessary evil.

And how many wars have been justified saying,

Oh,

It's a necessary evil,

You know?

Yes,

War is bad,

But it's,

We need it in order to fight greater evil.

So I don't,

I don't,

I,

I'm not really on board with that.

So I would have to say we have to go by more of a case-by-case basis in a specific thing,

Because a lot of time,

It just has to do with a lack of understanding,

You know,

A lack of creativity for dealing with things.

And not that it's wrong.

I mean,

We're all doing the best we can.

If we could do better,

We would.

But I don't think there's a,

Very rarely do I think there's ever a necessary evil,

You know?

So it says here,

A necessary,

So I'm on Wikipedia at this point.

A necessary evil is an evil that someone believes must be done or accepted because it is necessary to achieve a better outcome,

Especially because plausible alternative courses of action or inaction are expected to be worse.

It is the lesser of two evils,

Basically.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Which maintains that given two bad choices,

The one that is the least bad is the better choice.

And I heard this about how the Chinese view American politics,

And I actually think it has a lot of wisdom in it.

It's not the lesser of two evils.

It's,

They're both poisons.

So,

So,

You know,

So,

You know,

Pick your poison.

It's,

Both are going to poison you,

Poison you.

So why not just sit down the poisons and walk away from them,

You know?

So I think that's a sure.

Yeah.

So the history of it is the Oxford Dictionary of Word Origins asserts that the idea of a necessary evil goes back to Greek describing the first necessary evil as marriage.

There you go.

And further stating that as a good dose of misogyny.

I don't know if I'm going to touch that one.

Describing the first necessary evil as marriage and further stating that the first example in English from 1547 refers to a woman.

Thomas Fuller in his 1642 work,

The Holy State and the Profane State,

Made another of the earliest recorded uses of the phrase when he described the court jester,

The court jester as something that some count as a necessary evil in court.

So,

But there you go.

It's interesting.

These English,

You know,

The word English on a pool ball means to spin it,

Right?

To put a spin on something.

Okay.

Yeah.

So Ms.

Reid has said diversity allows for growth,

Each being authentic.

Evil does not need to be here to grow.

You know,

People talk about the devil's advocate,

That phrase,

And I go,

Well,

Does the devil need any advocacy?

I'm thinking no.

That's another interesting term,

Isn't it?

Yes.

It's,

You know,

These kind of dark forces in the world,

There's these claims that,

Oh,

You know,

We're just taking this role for your own good because people are too asleep.

You know,

They can't,

They'll never wake up without us.

You know,

They would just be in la-la land.

But if we do something extreme,

Then they're going to take notice and have motivation in order to change.

And I don't buy that BS.

You know,

And that's,

You know,

There might be a little something to it,

But like Ms.

Reid points out here,

Ms.

Reid points out evil does not need to be here for us to grow.

You know,

Yes,

I get it.

We have,

As I think of as a collective,

We have a really long ways to go,

But that excuse,

I don't think is good enough for justifying.

And this is another huge thing in spirituality.

I tend to not use the words good and evil so much.

I mean,

Yes,

There are,

There is good and evil.

I think on a relative scale,

You know,

What leads towards harm,

What leads away from harm,

You know,

I think that would be a guiding point.

But what's more resonant,

I think,

With more people,

Because some people might interpret one thing as good as evil and vice versa,

Yada yada.

But this notion of skillfulness,

You know,

If we look at a skilled craftsman or artisan,

Everybody can see,

Oh,

That's a skill.

That person has skill.

Look,

Look at what they've done.

You know,

I can see them working.

It's very skillful.

So we can apply that to our behavior and society and just about everything in our lives.

Is it skillful or is it unskillful?

And then with,

Is it wise?

Is it unwise?

You know,

Is it foolish or is it not foolish?

And then we can get into things like wholesomeness.

You know,

What makes the heart whole?

This notion of wholeness and wholesomeness or unwholesomeness.

I think these are things to keep in mind when we,

Because evil,

Good and evil,

They're very loaded terms a lot of times,

You know.

I don't want to necessarily shy away from them,

But I also want to bring into this notion of skillfulness as well.

And yeah,

It's a thing.

So I just want to put in a couple more comments.

So back then,

Did they arrange the asks,

Mr.

Reid?

I think that's in terms of Greek marriages.

And I think probably the answer is yes.

Then,

Because it was all just marriages were about a formal,

You know,

Financial arrangement.

So yeah,

When you tied the knot,

That's how it was in those days.

So this has been great.

I appreciate all the audience participation.

And yeah,

And I'll be back probably what sometime in December or January at the latest.

I think that's their plan.

Yeah.

A while away.

And thank you,

Ms.

Reid.

You're in the game of the drug,

And that can be an entanglement and can do damage.

And that's always my question.

So yeah.

All right.

We're going to close it out because we are over time.

Thanks so much,

Guys,

And love the participation.

And be well.

And we'll catch up again in December or January,

Whenever it is.

That's right.

Until then,

Y'all be well.

Bye now.