Augmented Practice | Mar 2024 Mindful Q&A W/ Wendy #19

In this nineteenth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion, we explore the ins and outs, ups and downs, and pros and cons of augmented meditation methods, mostly from an outsider's perspective.

Transcript

This is Josh of Integrating Presence,

And today I'm back again with the lovely Wendy Nash.

Wendy,

How's it going?

Yeah,

I'm on Gabby Gabby Country in Queensland,

And it's been raining here today.

Actually,

It's been raining for ages and ages and ages,

And it's even got to the point now where people go,

Oops,

Where it's even got to the point where people go,

I don't want more rain,

Because we usually love rain,

So yeah.

That's pretty unusual then,

Huh?

I mean,

Yeah,

It's pretty wild.

Of course,

This is Denmark here,

So it's kind of wet all the time almost.

It's a little rain this morning too,

So even the word dank is similar to dank,

Which is what means like unagreeable dampness.

So anyway,

It's okay though.

It's not really that unagreeable.

All right,

So today is augmented meditation methods,

And this is like our 19th one,

I think.

And so this was spurred by when we did meditation spaces,

I showed this chair,

And I think it's kind of like you sit in it and it folds over you,

And then it plays some kind of sound and light and things like this.

Yeah,

Right,

Ooh.

And I'll just say right up front here,

I'll give a disclaimer,

Because obviously I'm gonna be biased towards not having a lot of extra things going on in meditation,

But we'll explore this anyway.

And I haven't done a lot of research on this.

I did a little bit for the description,

And maybe I'll just read the description,

But yeah,

So this is not to,

Just know that my comments are merely my own.

They're not really based on a lot of empirical research.

So I invite people to come on here and tell me why I'm wrong,

Why this should be part of the meditation practice more often than not.

And hopefully,

I mean,

This is just opinions.

This is not factual evidence.

So please don't sue me.

So I have a podcast that I do about transportation in my town.

And we say that we are here to entertain and inform.

We are not giving any legal advice,

Opinion,

Or recommendation for action.

Very,

Yes,

That is very official,

Illegal sounding there.

And yeah,

So that sounds good.

Well put,

Wendy.

All right,

So here's what I have.

I have for this description.

In this 19th installment of our ongoing live series with Wendy Nash,

Inquiring into the Meditation Practice,

On and Off the Cushion,

We plan to explore the ins and outs,

Ups and downs,

And pros and cons of augmented meditation methods,

Mostly from an outsider's perspective.

Things like brainwave binaural beats,

Isochronic tones,

Using specific chakra frequencies,

Lucid dreaming devices,

Sensory deprivation tanks,

Biofeedback devices,

And then things like gongs,

Singing in crystal bowls,

Native American flutes,

Tuning forks,

Didgeridoo,

If I'm saying that right,

Handpan drums,

Music in general,

And more.

Okay,

So where to start with all that?

I think.

.

.

I want to start with the didgeridoo,

First up.

Okay,

So my.

.

.

Wendy is Australian,

If you haven't figured that out by now,

Yeah.

So she should immediately be an expert,

Right?

I mean,

Australians are a mid degree doer.

I did hear some music.

I think it was one of the alternative,

What do you call it?

Companies that have a lot of recordings of big teachers.

And they had this,

I think it was the shakuhachi flute and didgeridoo.

And my partner at that time was Australian,

And we both went,

This is wrong.

So we're used to certain sounds hearing.

So the didge,

My understanding is that that's only supposed to be played by men.

Apparently if women play it,

It can interfere with their fertility process.

So I don't know what that is,

But just to say that it is an instrument that's quite complicated to play anyway.

But it is something that has some Aboriginal communities use,

Not all of them in Australia.

It's my understanding.

I'm very lacking in knowledge.

That's my understanding.

So yeah,

It's something to be treated with respect and thought that it is a cultural,

It's associated with a cultural instrument.

So just putting that up,

The didge.

The didge,

I didn't know it was shortened to that.

And I love the British too.

They shorten things like session.

It's a sesh,

Not vegetable in the States.

It's kind of cute to say veggies,

But it's really efficient there.

It's just veg.

So yeah.

But no,

This instrument sounds amazing when I hear it on recordings and whatnot.

I mean,

It's just,

It's almost like,

Wait a second.

It's one of those things like,

Okay,

I know what music sounds like and what sounds supposed to sound like.

And it almost sounds kind of otherly worldly.

I mean,

It just really has a very unique sound.

It's not like a stringed instrument where you could say,

Oh,

That sounds like a such and such,

Or even guitars,

They can sound like other stringed instruments.

But a didgeridoo,

I don't think it has much of a,

It's kind of peerless.

I don't know what I would compare it to,

But.

I guess I grew up with it.

So for me,

It's just,

Yeah,

That's just what,

It is the didge,

So yeah.

Now,

Wendy,

Before we get into this more,

Didn't you go on a retreat lately?

Tomorrow.

Tomorrow,

Oh,

You go,

That's right.

Okay,

It's tomorrow you go into retreat,

Okay.

So maybe we'll talk about that later on or whatnot.

Now,

Let's just talk about more musical things.

I wanna ask Wendy,

Have you used any kind of musical instruments or sound in meditation or been like to a sound bath or a gong bath or things like this or played like a singing bowl?

Do you know any of these things?

No,

The only thing I know about the Tibetan singing bowls is that when I was at university,

I did a course on Buddhism in the contemporary world.

And it talked about the phenomenon of the singing bells,

But Tibetans don't do that with them.

That's my understanding.

This is a Western thing that has been infiltrated into that.

So this is one of those things that is sort of not really Tibetan is my understanding.

But again,

Lacking in knowledge,

Always very thin on the knowledge.

We are here to entertain and inform.

And if we're wrong,

Let us know.

I love that.

I love being wrong.

So,

And I'm not really a music person.

So I find it really,

I find music a lot of the time makes me quite jangled.

I'm a bit unusual in that regard.

I'm not much of a music person.

Well,

I will just mention my thing on this.

And I want to reiterate the Tibetan singing because I've watched several or maybe a handful of Tibetan documentaries here recently.

And I did not see any of them playing a singing bowl.

And I have a hand hammered one that's supposedly an antique one from Tibet.

And it's okay,

But I don't sit there and play it really a lot.

I will use it when I do meditations,

Like on Insight Timer Live,

I'll use it as a bell.

Hit it,

You know,

Because it has a nice resonant sound.

Now,

Some people like to use these sounds to focus on,

Like instead of the breath as an object,

They will just listen to the sound being played,

Right?

Or they'll have several of them.

Now,

I have been to sound baths too,

Where someone plays like a variety of these things.

They also have crystal bowls,

Which are these bigger bowls.

And with those,

It's an interesting phenomena when they spin around this,

It's almost like a stereoscopic effect.

So if you're laying down,

It almost seems like the sound is moving around the room too.

So it's this really interesting effect.

Now,

The reason I don't do things like this in my daily practice is because I like,

It's hard to be still and let the mind kind of calm on its own.

It's kind of a more distraction to subtler and subtle layers.

Now,

It can be good for some people,

I feel,

If they just have such a stressful life to just divert their mind from their habitual patterns.

And the sound is really very present and kind of easily distinguishable.

And there's something about a clear,

Bright,

Resonant sound too that does something with the mind.

Now for music,

For me,

When my 20s,

That was my whole life.

I mean,

I listened to all kinds of music.

I would search out rare magazines and this is the times of LimeWire and Napster,

All this stuff when I was downloading music I shouldn't have been downloading,

Right?

And don't do that anymore.

But today,

When I hear some of these pop songs,

Oh,

I just groan because some of the things,

I don't listen to much music with lyrics anymore.

They'll stay in my mind,

Like maybe a week afterwards because I've heard these songs hundreds and hundreds of times,

There's been emotional investment.

And I just kind of groan when I hear a lot of these songs and sometimes they'll stick in my head.

So I realized how this earworm phenomena,

How actually this can be detrimental to some people.

I know some people get a lot of relief,

But after meditation practice,

I know for me,

It's just too gross and syrupy and like emotionally manipulative,

Some of these songs,

You know.

I can go on and on,

I don't wanna bad mouth a lot of music cause I still listen to some more instrumental or without lyrics,

But I mean,

Lyrics can be really popular in songs,

Especially when they've been pumped into the collective over and over and over again.

So yes,

So just,

And then there's this phase in meditation that a lot of people talk about where a song from nowhere will pop into their mind and they'll just start hearing it or singing it and they can't get it out of their mind.

It'll be in there for quite a long time.

So that's a quite common phenomena during meditation.

Yeah,

So I actually read a book on memorization.

It's a great book.

She's Australian,

She did a PhD.

She wondered why Aboriginal people had such incredible memories.

And so she did her whole PhD on memorization cause she had a bad memory like so many of us do.

And actually the way that what she said is,

It's so disappointing that we are raised with these songs,

You know,

I love you,

Woo,

Woo,

Woo,

When this incredible mechanism of the mind for memorization through melody is in song.

This is actually what it's for.

And we just chuck it out the window and we go,

I love you,

Woo,

Woo,

Woo.

And it's just such a loss.

We are not the better off for it,

You know,

As you say,

It's an earworm.

So if that was a useful information,

If you were doing a story about the weather and the animals and the birds and the seasons and what was important to remember,

That earworm would be amazing.

You would always be able to remember it.

But the fact that it's not that.

But we are digressing.

We are not talking about meditation.

Well,

In a way we are.

I'll tie it back with your point here that the Buddhist suttas,

They use the,

If you read some of these original suttas that's been translated from Pali,

The Buddha often,

What's said to be the Buddha's words is often spoken in refrain.

A lot of things are repeated over and over and over again because of that's how people remember.

This was an oral tradition.

And so it was easier to remember teachings if there was a refrain and things repeated.

Mantras,

Mantras are made to be repeated over and over and over.

And there's a power in the sound.

Now,

I don't know if that would be considered augmented,

But I don't know this,

The whole notion of language,

We did a show on language too,

A couple of shows on language.

It is a really a fascinating thing,

But it's repeated in the Pali Canon so much to the point that it says dot,

Dot,

Dot.

And so they just leave it out.

Even the translators,

They won't,

They'll just put dot,

Dot,

Dot,

Because a lot of the things repeated would just be bigger and bigger and bigger.

So yeah.

All right.

Well,

Where do we want to take this next?

I'm wondering about,

I'm curious to see if Wendy's even heard of some of these other methods.

I am just barely familiar with some of them by name.

And I don't even know if I can give a decent definition of some of these things.

So just run through some of them again,

Because the didge obviously I was curious about.

I'm going,

That's something else.

That's not spiritual.

That's just,

I mean,

It is spiritual for Aboriginal people,

But it just feels like,

Yeah,

Weird.

And I mean,

It's a musical instrument.

A lot of Aboriginal people do play it with like guitars,

Rock guitars.

So I'm used to that.

Sure.

Now this,

Well,

Since we're on music,

We might as well just finish this up with these instruments.

These handpan drums.

Have you seen these?

So there's kind of like hippie guys.

Yeah.

They sound,

Go ahead.

A friend of mine plays it and he used to play it so much that then he played it on a Sunday morning and the neighbor across the road said,

You can play any other time.

Not Sunday morning,

Enough.

He's like,

But it's a great sound.

So he was a bit shocked that anyone didn't like it.

Laying down the law.

Yeah.

He's just like,

No,

Enough.

No,

They do have a really unique sound.

Very vibrant and resonant.

Yeah,

Brightness.

And they're fun to listen to.

Also some of the people that play it get kind of made fun of now,

Or cliche,

There's a kind of a cliche around the personality type that plays it,

But whatever.

I mean,

It's bright and uplifting.

It's not like this.

So there's some kind of a more brightening consciousness raising or development effect compared to just thoughtless,

Mindless.

What is the thing they do in R&B now with the,

When they vocoder or something where they tweak the vocals and you can't even really,

It sounds like a robot basically.

So a lot of the natural R&B singing is just all through that computer stuff.

Yeah.

I mean,

It's interesting.

I didn't know about the handpan drum.

So,

But this person I know,

He's completely lovely.

He's an absolutely delightful person.

Oh yeah,

Absolutely.

The people that I've met,

They are delightful.

It's a shame that there's a cliche around some people like that now because of that.

But yeah,

No,

That's right.

And I want to reiterate that too.

The folks that I know that play it too are just absolutely wonderful individuals.

Look,

I think that there's always going to be cliches about everybody.

Like,

You know,

People who sit in the corner in the lotus position and just.

Absolutely,

Yeah.

You know,

And there is truth to that,

You know.

Sure,

Oh yeah.

There was a joke about,

Somebody told me a joke.

Can I say a Buddhist joke?

Please.

Yes.

Hopefully I can use it later too.

Yeah,

Yeah.

This is two old guys and one of them says,

Oh,

So how's your son?

You know,

How's he going?

And he's going,

You know,

What happened about his unemployment?

It's like,

Oh,

Well,

He's,

You know,

Decided to do this meditation thing.

At least he's,

You know,

Not sitting around doing nothing.

That's great.

That old thing,

Yeah,

Just don't do something,

Sit there.

You know?

Yeah,

Exactly.

But I love the idea of being unemployed and,

Yeah,

Don't do anything else.

Exactly,

Yeah.

I tell people sometimes,

Well,

Like,

What is the most,

For someone who can accomplish anything in life,

You know,

That,

You know,

Money's not a problem.

They can achieve everything they set their mind to.

What's the ultimate achievement then?

Is sitting there doing nothing.

Yeah,

Exactly,

That Harvard thing.

Yeah,

So,

All right.

Okay,

We've got gongs.

Now,

These are really,

I think some of the Eastern traditions use gongs,

But I've been to this sound bath in,

It's a Buckminster Fuller Dome,

And people would lay down on yoga mats and the practitioner would just kind of play the gong.

I think she had singing bowls too,

But it's another real interesting sound.

Usually,

I don't know,

Like it symbolizes some kind of significant event going on.

If someone hits a gong,

Right?

It's supposed to mark something significant.

Usually,

There was even an old TV show called The Gong Show,

And I don't even remember what that was about,

But maybe that was an American thing,

Yeah?

I think what that was is you did a skit or a joke,

And then when somebody decided that was enough or they didn't want to stop,

They just pressed the gong.

I think that's what it was.

I'm sure we had it here.

Just as you were saying that,

I was thinking,

All right,

So I think it goes back to the question about what is meditation?

What are we doing?

What's the purpose?

Yes.

Is it to get enlightened,

Whatever that means?

Is it to have a bliss or unique particular experience?

Is it to learn,

To be different,

To transform the mind,

To train the mind,

To be more sincere?

So this is kind of where I'm a little bit,

I know we haven't gone into so many of the techniques here.

Yeah,

I was thinking about the binaural beats.

I actually did a little bit of that when I was at university.

I'm not sure it did anything,

But I'm a great believer in the placebo effect.

I think the placebo effect is the most effective form of medication there is.

There's no two ways about that.

And it's so cheap.

You can do it.

You just need to think it's going to work.

And I just think,

What is wrong with thinking that that is going to work?

I think there's a point where you don't want to be stupid because some people think that it works and then it really doesn't.

They're actually in denial.

But hey,

Give it a go.

And I think a lot of this stuff,

And some people do have very resonant minds and bodies with particular things.

So sound for some people is huge and they find it.

Their bodies are uplifted through this experience.

And then for other people,

Yeah.

So I think that's all really good.

The one where you put the,

I don't know,

Whatever it is on your head to have particular brain waves activated to enter a sense of sort of,

I guess,

Basically a psychedelic state,

But without the psychedelic drugs.

And then I go,

Well,

Is that really changing who you are?

Or are you just going,

Is the ego just going to come in and claim it as being,

I'm now enlightened because I've had a five minute experience or whatever it is,

And I've seen something.

And that's always my worry about this stuff.

How much is it actually transforming the mind,

Your capacity to respond differently to what arises as opposed to thinking you're enlightened and therefore I know how to respond.

It's a different thing.

So many good points here,

Wendy.

Wow.

So sound in general,

Yes.

Some people it's,

So there's this notion of kind of discord and harmony.

There's so many sounds and events in our lives that cause discordance and disharmony.

And when somebody sits and listens to something a little bit more harmonious,

A little bit more in balance and can feel the vibrations in the body,

Sometimes that can align to kind of more skillful and wholesome states or give a reference point or say,

Wow,

Wow,

I've had this disharmony and discordance in my life,

But now I'm hearing this and I'm feeling this and I'm aligning with this instead.

And so it can give some kind of inspiration or reference point.

But I think the fundamental thing here that you mentioned is why do we do this?

What is the point of all this?

And I agree with almost all of that.

And it should be to train the mind.

Train the mind for what?

Well,

It should be in service to our long-term benefit and wellbeing and for that of others and stress the long-term.

And I would also say to start seeing and knowing things as they actually are and not necessarily how we want them to be.

And how's the best way to go about all that?

And how does that trickle into our everyday lives and on and off the cushion,

Right?

Now you talked about the binaural beats and my experience with that is it's really interesting.

I also wanna know or say for people that have kind of these thrill-seeking or dependencies too.

So if they get really habitually trained to using these things,

Then they don't really know how to meditate without them or they become maybe dependent on them or maybe it colors,

I don't know for sure,

I'm just speculating here,

Colors the mind in a way that or puts,

Forms or shapes the mind in a way that may take time to undo and to go into something that's not dependent on an external source.

I've tried these two and I've had varying degrees of effect with them.

Now,

The other thing that Wendy mentioned here was this notion of peak experience kind of things,

Just doing this to have an experience.

And I'm of two camps on this.

One,

I think some people need these peak experiences in order to know that there's something more than,

Okay,

I'm just gonna sit and follow my breath.

What's the big deal with that?

I get bored,

Disinterested,

That's it's not doing anything for me.

Yeah,

Yes and no,

Maybe.

But if someone has a peak experience,

Then they could say,

Well,

There is more to this than I thought.

The problem comes,

And we've talked about this before,

Is when somebody chases those peak experiences or that's all it's about.

They're trying to recreate them.

They'll go to an ayahuasca to get a retreat to do this.

They'll go try some extreme sport,

Go try extreme technique,

Or yeah,

Just different altered states just for the fact of having an experience,

Okay?

So I like this balance of not trying to recreate it or chase peak experiences,

But use them as a reinforcement and inspiration to know that the mind is a really amazing,

Mysterious thing.

And there's a lot of potential we have.

And how are we going to do that in the most beneficial way for us and those around us and stay inspired and integrate those experiences too?

Now,

I'm forgetting the other things you said,

Wendy,

But I've blabbed long enough on this one.

And I'll see if you have any more thoughts on this.

Yeah,

I mean,

I guess it does just,

And the other thing that really strikes me about the conversation is,

So you and I both follow Buddhism,

Which is generally known as the Dharma or the teachings.

It's a particular strand,

It's a religion that is a particular person who had some very interesting insights.

There've been a whole lot of people,

Disciples at the time and since,

Who've had their own experiences and who've understood the texts in a particular way.

There've been cultural influences of the different countries where that has come into.

So we're talking about Buddhist meditation and in Buddhist meditation,

I don't really think any of that happens.

So this is more in the,

I don't know what else would you call it,

Spiritual meditation or like Kirtan,

For instance,

I think that's a Hindu tradition,

Isn't it?

And that's great.

And I don't have any qualms about that.

I don't know anything about it,

But people find it very beneficial.

People find dance very beneficial,

But this,

You and I are both Buddhist.

And so not to say that one is any better or the other is any whatever.

I mean,

Obviously I think that for me,

Buddhism is the one that works.

That's why I do it.

And I presume it's the same for you.

So I guess I sort of want to put on the table that if we're talking Buddhist meditation in the narrow understanding that I have it in a Western traditions.

So there are lots of things in Tibetan Buddhism that go on that have a sort of a heritage in the pre-Buddhist life culture of those people.

And they've also,

I read that in,

Was it Cambodia?

They had a lot of those different kinds of practices too,

But that's not necessarily what we're talking about with the binaural beats or the gongs or the bells or the whistles and the,

I mean,

I'm a bit facetious there,

But that's something slightly different,

I guess.

Yeah,

These are really good points.

And I just want to make a couple of clarifications and I actually wouldn't consider myself a Buddhist.

However,

It may as well be because I study and practice it quite a bit.

I've been to monasteries,

I have a daily sitting practice.

And I do really want to say this ism,

Putting an ism on Buddhism,

To me,

It does it a disservice.

To me,

I look at it as here's a guy,

Siddhartha Gautama,

Right?

And there's another distinction.

He was human,

But then after his,

What's called full awakening and attainment of Buddhahood,

He no longer fit into these categories of any kind of being whatsoever.

He was asked,

What are you?

And he basically said,

Well,

I'm awake.

They asked,

Are you a human?

Are you a Deva?

Are you a Sura,

Brahman?

What are you?

He said,

Well,

I'm awake.

And that's what the title Buddha means.

So it's really kind of unfathomable to us still on this path.

And I will agree with Wendy this,

Especially in the Western Buddhist tradition,

And there's not a lot of emphasis on peak experiences.

Absolutely,

In fact,

There can see,

Usually seen as a hindrance.

However,

These things do,

Can and do spontaneously arise in meditation in certain times under certain conditions.

So,

But the emphasis is not to put a big emphasis on them.

They're just another empty phenomena going on.

But I think it can do a disservice to completely write them off and have no significance whatsoever.

But there's also the bigger danger of giving them too much significance,

Like I was just talking about.

Now,

The Buddhist,

I mean,

The Tibetan thing is really interesting too,

Because I think they do,

I don't know,

Wendy knows more about Tibetan Buddhism than I do,

But there's like visualization practices and deity practices,

You know,

The mandala thing.

I think some even have,

You know,

Communication with certain deities,

Dakini.

I mean,

It all depends.

There's secret,

I mean,

There's inner teachings and there's secret teachings,

And a lot of them aren't really that public.

So,

You know,

I don't know much about this.

I just know if anything,

That would be the tradition within Buddhists,

That would be more towards this type of film.

Yeah,

I mean,

I think that,

I think it's good to keep an open mind and to try it,

But I do think,

You know,

I meet people and they go,

Oh,

My kind of meditation is taking the dog for a walk or reading a book.

And there is a conflation between meditation as a form of contemplation,

A form of relaxation and a form of mind training.

And probably as a,

But there is a,

You know,

I'm quiet,

That's how I quieten my mind.

I go running.

So this is,

So I think there's a bit of confusion about,

Well,

What are we talking about with meditation and why are those tools useful for some people?

Exactly,

And this goes into a bigger question of this three-part thing of Sila Samadhi,

Panya,

Sila ethics,

And then Samadhi is the meditation training and then Panya is wisdom.

So I think a lot of times when we just talk just about meditation,

These other key ingredients are kind of left out,

Right?

And training the mind for what?

Training the mind for our benefit and our welfare and that of others,

Like I said.

And yeah,

And first to seeing clearly,

Clear seeing and seeing things for how they actually are.

Because most people live in a story about reality.

They don't actually live in reality,

I would say,

You know.

And then,

Okay,

Well,

I think let's,

If we want to,

We can go on to a couple of these other things that I have here.

And I think one of the ones,

Isochronic tones,

This one,

I'm not even sure what the heck that is.

I found that,

And I think it's similar to binaural beats,

But I want to say,

Maybe it's like certain tones.

I hear Wendy possibly looking that up.

Yeah,

I am.

It was a bit naughty,

Sorry about that.

No,

No,

Do that.

It's irritating when people do that.

And why you're doing it,

Go ahead.

But I think it's,

Look,

It says,

Deep theta meditation,

5.

5 Hertz,

Isochronic tones.

I think it might be the binaural beats,

That same kind of style.

And I think there's a value to that.

And if you don't have time,

Say you're studying for an exam,

And you just need to cram,

You need to prepare.

That's how it is.

Something like that,

I go,

Okay,

Go for it.

Is it going to transform your mind?

Is it going to say,

You're really slowly with life and practice over the decades,

You'll become a more chilled person?

I don't know.

I mean,

I could be wrong about that.

But I sense that,

Actually,

It just becomes another form of dependence,

As you said.

So that's the only thing I would say.

Yeah,

This is fascinating.

There's certain types of brain waves,

Right?

In certain,

Like alpha state.

Most people operate in beta,

From what I understand.

Alpha is kind of more of the relaxed and focused state.

Then you get into dreaming states.

I think deep dreamless sleep might be where delta gets more activated.

Theta is usually this mind state that's kind of healing,

And a lot of,

I don't know,

Phenomena happen,

And a lot of interesting things happen in theta,

I think.

And what am I missing here?

I think that this says,

Which one did it say this state was in?

Was it in theta?

Theta.

Yeah,

Like a lot of,

Like,

Oh,

I don't know.

I don't want to say it.

I don't want to say too much.

But this also goes into what Wendy mentioned a while ago,

And I forgot this.

These electrodes you put on your head.

They do EGG,

And this is how they read brain wave.

And I want to say this is how neurofeedback is done.

So if I'm getting this right,

I should talk to a psychologist friend of mine who I just interviewed recently on lucid dreaming,

By the way,

And that'll be coming out in a month or so.

And he used to work with neurofeedback devices,

And I forget exactly.

But I think what you could do is you could do meditation,

Or meditated techniques in real time,

And they'll put your brain waves on the screen,

And then you can actually see what you focus on or how your meditation.

It's like feedback in real time.

But for me- Biofeedback,

Yeah.

Yeah,

So I don't,

Is that how it works?

But for me,

I was like,

Well,

That seems a little weird because you can't,

At least I don't think I could go as deep if I'm looking at my technological representation of what's going on.

To me,

That in itself is kind of distracting.

I get the idea of how it can provide feedback,

But if we're really attuned internally,

We're getting feedback moment to moment on what's happening in our experience.

So I don't know.

I can see the pros and cons to it.

They've also put some of these monks in MRI machines,

And they've get these patterns of certain areas of the brain lighting up.

And I write it off a little bit,

But it's interesting,

And we know certain areas of the brain are responsible for certain things,

But we also know,

Right,

That certain people that are classified a certain way,

Certain patterns in their brain will be completely different but then we'll also have similar MRI results.

And these people can be completely classified as different things or different levels and things like this.

We've get this case of,

Was it Steven Pinkard,

Where this guy was missing so much brain matter,

And you would think that he would not even be able to live or have any kind of life,

But he had a normal IQ.

So,

I mean,

That's a whole other thing.

Consciousness,

I don't think,

Works the way a lot of people think it does in how the brain interacts with this.

So I think that's,

Yeah.

Yeah,

I was just,

You know,

We don't know much at all,

And we make these huge assumptions and sweeping statements.

And,

You know,

I think one of my favourite sayings is,

It never ceases to amaze me how determined I am to think that I am right,

Given how frequently I actually find out that I am wrong.

And I'm wrong all day,

Every day.

I think a call is going to be happen or somebody's going to reply in a positive or a negative or I'll get this email or I'll get that,

Whatever.

And none of it happens like that.

None of it happens as like,

And yet I'm so determined to go,

This is what it is,

And it's like nuts.

Hey,

Let's talk about lucid dreaming.

Okay,

I want to echo that point though,

That these expectation and assumptions we have are really,

I mean,

This is a huge area of practice too,

Because I will have expectations as assumption.

Having an expectation is a setup for disaster in most cases,

Because,

But even if it gets met,

That's great.

But then is that really going to do it for me?

If I get that expectation,

Yes,

I finally arrived,

That's really going to do it now forever.

No,

I just set the next expectation.

And most of the times they don't get met.

What I find even more interesting is that how many expectations I have that are unconscious.

I just have certain assumptions and expectations that are running that I don't even realize it until they get shattered.

And then I'm like,

Wow,

Okay,

I had that expectation.

I didn't even,

Wasn't even conscious of it.

So you have to be,

Cut myself a break too.

And also,

Wendy,

Yes,

It's very humbling to know that we know very little.

And,

But we at least know that much.

So if we know anything,

We know that.

And I just,

Maybe this is too much of a tangent,

But in our experience,

At least what I understand now,

There's,

If you boil down experience,

There's basically two things going on.

What's being known and the knowing.

So by knowing,

I mean,

Not a,

This is a definitive,

Absolute certainty.

What I mean is,

Okay,

I'm observing phenomena and I know of that particular,

Like right now,

I know that I'm talking,

Right?

There's that knowing of talking,

Or what we call talking,

And the phenomena itself.

I'm looking at a screen with Wendy,

That's what's being known,

And there's the knowing that that's happening.

Usually we focus on what's being known and not the faculty of actually knowing it.

So that's not what Wendy was talking about,

I know,

But I will just,

This is raw,

Bare experience,

Yeah.

I think,

Let's pick that one up,

Because as you were saying that,

I was thinking,

I want to unpack that.

But today,

That's not what we're doing,

So let's do that.

So let's unpack- Lucid dreaming,

Okay.

Yeah,

But we would just,

So note to self,

Make sure we come back to it,

Which is the knower and the knowing.

Let's come back to that in one of our meditation class,

Meditation conversations.

Oh yes,

Let's put that,

Because we don't have,

The next one we're going to do is,

Oh,

Dang it,

Now I forgot,

I've got it.

Oh,

Thinking and emotions.

So we're going to go to the basics of thinking and emotions,

And so then maybe the one after that,

We'll do knowing and what's being known,

Or however we want to title it.

Okay,

Lucid dreaming.

Wendy,

Have you had lucid dreams?

Do you- I'm rubbish,

I'm rubbish,

I'm like rubbish on this stuff.

A couple of months ago,

Some friends came over and they don't meditate,

They don't do any of this.

And they're going,

Oh yeah,

This is how I fly.

And then the other one's going,

Oh,

I fly like this.

And I was going,

That's not fair.

But,

And then I said,

Well,

You can actually,

Apparently,

Work through all your,

You can do a ton of therapy,

You can meet people.

I met a woman who,

This was when I was in London,

And she had spent the first 13 years of her life here,

And in Sydney,

And I said,

Would you go back?

And she said,

Well,

I kind of just flew there.

So I had a look around and I've seen it now,

So no,

I don't need to go back there.

I'm like,

Jealous as all hell,

You know?

I would love to be able to do that.

That one's one of those ones I go,

All right,

Put me up,

Wire me up,

Give me the drugs,

Whatever.

I want to know what that's like.

I've got these friends and they're not at all like that.

One of them,

He just gets this vibe.

He goes to the gate where he,

When he was a child growing up or where they used to live.

And he just went,

There's a presence.

There's an evil,

Evil presence at this gate.

And he had this sense of that.

And the dog was like,

Real low,

Like evil presence growl.

And then,

Yeah,

So different people have these abilities,

But I think lucid dreaming,

Dream yoga,

Super jealous.

If you've had that experience,

I don't know.

Do I want to talk to you ever again?

I know,

I don't want to get too much into it.

So wait,

Your friend,

That was in a dream?

They visited a gate where they used to live?

Or tell me that again.

No,

That was me being distracted in 29 different ways.

So these two couples came over and two,

Like the husband in one and the wife in the other,

They both used to just have this ability to lucid dream.

And they would go flying,

Astral traveling.

And they would go traveling everywhere.

And they were comparing notes on their technique,

On their like paddling techniques.

And then the husband said that his experience,

Not with,

I guess it was sort of an alternative weirdo,

Non,

I don't know,

Western solid experience,

Like we're talking about ghosts,

We're talking about.

.

.

And he said when they had a farm in South Africa,

And at this one gate,

The hairs on the back of his neck would always rise.

And one time the wife went,

Oh,

This is weird feeling here.

And just cold.

So just,

I guess there are other ways of seeing the world and being in the world.

And I guess that's the correlation.

Well,

Absolutely.

You know,

We know that,

And we talked about this before,

That our eyesight is only within a certain frequency range.

And there's all kinds of things outside of our actual vision and same way with sound.

And,

You know,

We have all kinds of invisible things all around us,

Like this wifi connection.

You know,

Of course we can't see it,

But it's,

We know it's working,

You know,

Radio waves,

Yada,

Yada.

But for the lucid dreaming,

I will say when I was doing more of this type of stuff,

I would fly feet first.

That was weird.

Usually you show Superman like flying like this,

But my feet were going first like this.

And other times you float right off the ground,

Just like you're standing upright,

But you're just about this far off,

Almost like a vampire.

And then you would go forward like this,

But this,

Okay.

So it all depends on what we do.

How did you get there?

How did you?

All right.

How did you get there?

You gotta be really weird.

So Whitney,

This is a training just like anything else.

My friend,

I don't do much of this anymore and don't even have much recall,

But I almost invite you to see the talk we have when it airs,

But it's a training like anything else.

Now,

The Tibetan dream,

That's more advanced.

There's way more basic training to this and I'll just give a quick rundown.

You know,

The first thing is to start a dream journal.

So,

Well,

Actually before that,

You have to really,

I mean,

Really want it and put effort into it for these things.

I mean,

If you want to train it,

Some people just have the natural,

Right?

And that I get it,

That's no fair.

I would love to be able to be like master all the Jhanas immediately,

Like some people seem to have,

You know,

Effortless in some of these meditation attainments,

But it's a long training for us and it's how much do you want it?

You know,

How much do you really want to dedicate time and effort or is it just a passing fancy?

So,

You know,

For me,

I don't do a lot of it and it doesn't happen much anymore and I'm not really dedicated to training it,

But if it's something you want,

I say go for it full out,

Train in it.

And there's just so many different techniques and reality testing,

You'll have to get into it because it is a whole series of thing that modern people are doing now.

And then I think the more advanced and more beneficial stuff would be the Tibetan dream yogi,

Dreaming,

But I don't know if that's where it should start.

I'm not really familiar with that either,

But you just look up lucid dreaming techniques and training and that's how,

I mean,

To make a long story short without going into a lot of details,

I don't practice it,

But there are a lot of different tips and techniques and things we can do.

And my psychologist friend talks all about it because he's really,

Really into it.

And then he even gets into the high strangeness of going into the astral,

You know,

Astral traveling and crossing over into the astral from a lucid dream state.

I will say that there's a different degrees of lucidity though.

Like usually what happens to me now,

As soon as I realize I'm dreaming,

I wake up.

So to me,

It's more about awakening than it is sleeping and dreaming.

But,

You know,

These experiences are,

Basically there is no limit in a dream world because there's no laws of reality,

You can do whatever you want.

But at a certain time when you realize that,

Then it's just like,

That even can get boring because,

You know,

I don't know,

I don't know.

But it's definitely,

It's definitely,

So just realizing,

Usually what happens to me is I realize that I'm in a dream,

But I don't have control over it.

So I think full lucidity would be,

You're dreaming,

You realize you're dreaming,

And then you can do whatever you want,

You can have control over it.

So what happens for me though,

Is I either realize I'm dreaming and I can't do what I want or I wake up.

So I haven't trained it enough,

Yeah.

But I think the,

What else should we say about that in context to meditation?

Now,

This is where the,

I think it would be really beneficial to do more meditative practices in the lucid dream state.

And that's what I would be more interested,

Doing meditative practices while lucid in a dream.

Now,

And oh,

The other thing is some people can actually consciously fall asleep and consciously enter the dream state,

Consciously know they're in a dreamless state and then consciously wake up.

So they're aware the entire time,

They never lose awareness,

Which I think is amazing.

One of the easier practices to do with this is being aware of if it's an in or an out breath upon awakening in the morning or whenever you wake up.

But the more challenging one I haven't been able to do yet is know if it's an in or out breath before I fall asleep.

I haven't been able to do that.

The one waking up I have,

Okay.

There is this thing about,

So lucid dreaming,

I think Andrew Holacek's stuff is really good.

If anybody watching this is interested in it,

That's definitely the place to go.

I did,

I think it can be really useful if you've had a difficult situation and you want to get some clarity on it and you have that skill.

And I think you can also help with the bardos.

So the bardos is training for the death transition into unconsciousness and death.

So I think they're very highly correlated and I think it's very useful practice.

So my hope is that when I fully retire and I just dedicate myself only to practice,

Which I don't have the capacity to do at the moment,

That's not what I want to do.

But when I'm approaching a quieter time in my life,

I would love to get back into the bardo states,

Inquire into that.

And you start with lucid dreaming and then you can try and catch that moment when you fall asleep,

When you wake up,

Right at that thing.

And you ask yourself,

Am I,

Even during your day as you go along,

Several times a day,

You go,

Am I awake or am I dreaming?

And this is a process to help with going,

Well,

Am I dreaming?

Am I lucid dreaming?

So I think in answer to the question about our augmented- That's what they call reality testing.

Yeah.

I think,

Right,

Yeah.

What I think is really interesting about this one is that this is the only one that you and I have thought,

Have actually,

I think,

Spoken about positively,

Really,

Because it is about training the mind.

We're both people who like to train the mind.

So that's what we like to do.

And so perhaps that's how we imagine meditation is,

Is about training the mind.

What do we want from meditation?

Do we want to feel like,

Yeah,

That we're not working with something?

Or,

You know,

That's what I think.

I mean,

Your partner,

Your fiance,

She's also really into meditation.

Is she into Buddhist meditation or does she do other augmented things?

No,

Not augmented so much.

She has her own techniques and practices and energy work.

And she actually has past life recall of being a monastic in Tibet.

So it's pretty wild.

I mean,

She's far beyond my abilities and things like this.

So we have been reading,

Though,

Pak Sayadaw's Seeing and Knowing,

Just because he's considered one of the great living meditation masters.

So I don't really know how to answer that.

I would say she has her own style,

Her own work,

Her own techniques.

And she's,

I would say,

Very far advanced on the inner planes of reality,

Far more than I am.

Now,

We've got a couple extra ones here that I haven't mentioned yet.

And one of the things that spurred this is similar to what spurred the idea for this is sensory deprivation tanks.

And I think we talked briefly about this before,

What people call float tanks.

And so,

Wendy,

Have you tried one of these before?

When I was a young woman,

I was probably 22,

And I was trying lots of things to calm myself down and everything.

And I don't know what it was.

So everybody else talked about how calming it was.

I did it.

And now,

If I did it,

I think I would be okay.

But at the time,

I fell asleep,

And I was so freaked out because I actually,

It used to be that when I would wake up in the morning,

Really,

Until I was in my 40s,

At the moment when I woke up,

I would jolt.

So I fell asleep,

And then I jolted,

Because I didn't know how long I'd been asleep.

I felt alone and afraid.

It triggered some traumatic thing for me,

Actually.

So I didn't enjoy it at all.

And I've been a bit nervous about going back.

Well,

It's funny you mentioned the jolting because this is something that I've experienced.

I usually get it right before I fall asleep,

And then I'll be jolted awake.

And so I hear this more and more.

Of course,

My fiancee experiences this sometimes,

And I've talked to plenty of people that experience this.

And I'll say via my speculation on what that is.

And it sucks that that happened in the float tank.

The one time I did it was in Chicago years ago before I started meditation practice.

So I might wanna do it again since meditation.

But for anyone not familiar,

You shower off and then,

I think I went completely without clothing into like a,

Or maybe,

Anyway.

So you put in an Epsom salt bath.

So it's effortless floating,

And you're in this chamber.

And I don't think there,

I don't remember there's any light whatsoever.

And I can't remember exactly how.

I think they showed me how to get in and out of there.

And the time,

I forgot how to do the time so you don't lose track of time.

I think there is options for people to play sound and have lights inside of some of these things.

I can't really remember all the details,

But I do remember being,

My body was,

Usually my body is fairly tense and I'm in my mind a lot.

At the time,

I do remember having a really relaxation,

Effortless relaxation in my body.

I was able to stay conscious the entire time.

And my mind did calm down and settle down,

But I did not fall asleep.

So I don't know what would have happened if I would have fell asleep.

And that's weird.

Some people say it recreates like an ambiotic fluid,

Like in the womb perhaps.

It's warm.

Yeah,

So it's really interesting.

And then I don't know if anybody's ever seen the movie Altered States,

But really briefly from what I remember,

Not only were these quote unquote scientists and mind explorers going into these,

But they were taking like LSD on top of it.

And so what could possibly go wrong,

Right?

But they were on high amounts of psychedelics and going into this,

And plus probably other things.

And let's just say a lot of interesting things ensue in that movie.

It's an old one from the seventies.

I can't,

Maybe- It sounds like,

I was just going,

What was his name?

Timothy,

Whatever his name is,

You know?

And you just go,

Oh man,

You know?

I mean,

There's a lot of conversation now about psychedelics and people are very keen on it,

But just a heads up about psychedelics.

A friend of mine is an emergency medicine specialist.

So he's in the emergency department and I said,

What's the deal?

Cause he's very interested in trauma and everything.

And he said,

Well,

If you have PTSD,

Then 50-50 chance,

It'll make you great.

50-50 chance,

It'll make you much,

Much worse.

So,

And they don't know what to make it.

Yeah,

And they said,

They don't know what it is,

Which is the reason why it goes well for some and not well for others.

So I think you have to be really,

Really,

You're playing with fire,

For sure.

Absolutely.

And I mean,

I've got the kind of mixed thoughts and feelings about this.

The jury's still open,

But they're trying to give this to psychiatrists.

I guess maybe some people are getting onto the fact that a lot of the psychiatric drugs have all these downsides but they still want to be able to dole out substances.

And my take would be,

Well,

No,

I don't need to draw conclusions,

I'll just say that.

But I will say,

Well,

Is there a difference between a white psychiatrist,

Urbanite,

Their whole life basically with certain types of medical training versus like a shaman who has been doing these things for generations in a certain setting and maybe they have a different understanding than what a more clinical approach,

But maybe not.

I mean,

Maybe one's more helpful and are not helpful for one individual than another.

So I don't think the drawing conclusions is that helpful,

But I do usually advise people that they really have to do their home,

They really have to be called to do this and then just do so much research and then also do tons and tons of vetting on various practitioners or people that are going to dole it out.

And then,

Yeah,

There's all kinds of huge things.

And then the integration process afterwards,

I hear is just as important,

If not more important than actually doing the substances.

I don't feel,

They're way too gross for me.

I mean,

They're way too powerful in medicine.

Once you get into a meditation practice,

I don't think where they're really needed,

Because it's just,

There's so much more subtlety that gross,

And then you can snap out of it,

Not snap out,

Well,

Not two times,

But if something happens in meditation where it's too much overwhelming,

You could just open your eyes,

Get up and go about your day,

Usually a lot of times,

Right?

If it doesn't get too intense.

But if you're in a psychedelic state,

You want it to go off,

It won't.

You can't,

It keeps going.

But one thing I did know just about smoking pot years ago is that I'm not in control,

Right?

To think that I'm in control of everything,

That's one thing it did open me up to is that I don't have control of my experience 100% of the time,

Right?

That there's other things going on in reality.

So just a heads up about psychedelics,

Here,

Australia is the first place which has actually really got psychiatrists in on that and doing it.

It's the first country to legalize it other than Switzerland.

And they are doing research about using it as a psychotherapeutic good.

It's only for people who've got certain conditions,

Like they've had depression for several years,

They've tried everything else,

Nothing is working.

And so that it's last-ditch attempt only with certain practitioners,

Only with certain people who are skilled,

All that.

So it is happening here.

And I think it's very interesting.

And there was some research about the psychotherapist who said something afterwards,

Maybe a month,

Within a month afterwards,

Her psychotherapist said something and it just sort of made her spin out the patient for,

I don't know,

Six months or a year or two years from that one sentence that the therapist said just off the cuff like that is innocuous.

But it took her a year or two to recover from.

So it just shows the sort of sensitivity of it.

We're at time and we didn't even finish with lucid dreaming and other things.

Well,

We didn't,

The one last thing is just to be a completist here,

The chakras,

I'll just say there's not chakras in most Buddhism.

So you can go to a free teaching that my fiance has about kind of her view of those things.

But all right,

Wendy,

Well,

This has been fun here.

We didn't even really know what the heck we're going to talk about,

But we have such a good rapport and a decent knowledge base.

And it's just fascinating to explore these things on the fly.

So thank you again.

Always fun to chat with you.

Always fun to chat.

All right,

Bye y'all.