I Am That - Session 61 - Chapter 21 - Who Am I - Part 3

Listen to Ektaji talk about Nisargadatta Maharaj's book I Am That. Nisargadatta Maharaj was a teacher who did not propound any ideology or religion, but gently unwrapped the mystery of the self. I Am That preserves his dialogs with the followers who came from around the world seeking guidance in destroying false identities.

Transcript

Questioner says to think oneself as the personal is the sin of the impersonal.

What is impersonal?

The pure consciousness is impersonal and it starts thinking of itself as the person.

That itself is the sin.

So Manas says again the personal point of view.

Why do you insist on polluting the impersonal with your ideas of sin and virtue?

It just does not apply.

The impersonal cannot be described in terms of good and bad.

It is being,

Wisdom,

Love.

Sat,

Chit,

Anand.

Being,

Wisdom,

Love.

All absolute.

Where is the scope for sin there?

And virtue is only the opposite of sin.

The question is the pure consciousness is sinning by thinking that it is the person.

Yeah,

Nice idea.

But he's saying again you are applying your limited point of view there.

There it is infinite,

Unlimited,

Beyond both.

The pure consciousness is the totality.

The totality consists of both the opposites.

Virtue and sin.

Yeah,

Good and evil.

Then only it becomes total,

No?

So you can't say that that pure consciousness because it thinks of it as itself as the person,

Then it is committing a sin.

No.

It has the freedom to sin.

It has the freedom to virtue.

Both are it only.

It is total.

So it's not that it is sinning.

You are putting these ideas of sin and virtue.

For it,

It is a dance.

It is a play.

It's just the balance.

Balance needs both sides.

Yeah.

Totality,

Poornata,

Completeness.

That is the nature of pure consciousness.

So obviously the opposite of sin and virtue,

Both are in it.

Yet it is beyond both.

So questioner says we talk of divine virtue.

Maharaj says true virtue is divine nature,

Swaroopa.

What you are really is your virtue.

But the opposite of sin which you call virtue is only obedience born out of fear.

Fear is very straightforward.

Why do you do some good deed?

Look inside.

You're actually doing it out of fear.

It is born out of fear.

Good karma.

I need good karma.

I want to be the good person.

I want everybody to validate that I am a good person.

Why do you want validation for good person?

Because the idea being a person itself is wrong,

Is a lie.

I'm faking it,

No?

Now I want to be a good person.

I'm faking it.

I cannot be the person.

That itself is a lie.

There is this constant seeking for validation,

Confirmation,

Reassurance.

There's fear of seeing the truth that I am not the person.

So questioner says then why all effort at being good?

Maharaj says it keeps you on the move.

You go on and on till you find God.

Then God takes you into himself and makes you as he is.

So the questioner says the same action is considered natural at one point and a sin at another.

What makes it sin?

Maharaj says whatever you do against your better knowledge is sin.

When I was a kid,

What is my better knowledge?

Oh my doll is real.

I have to take care of my doll just like mummy takes care of me,

Gives me a shower every morning.

I have to give my doll a shower.

I have to change her clothes.

That was my better knowledge.

I didn't know anything better than that.

Then I grew up and I realized oh the doll doesn't have life.

It's not real.

So I went with my better knowledge and I naturally dropped the toy,

Dropped playing.

If I still continue to play with the toy then it is sin he says.

Now whatever you do against your better knowledge is sin.

In Sanskrit it is called Pragyaprad.

If you are ignorant,

You don't know any better about the witness consciousness.

You've not even been introduced by anybody,

No book,

No scripture.

You have no idea.

You had no idea you were the witness consciousness.

You always believed this.

You were ignorant.

So if you were ignorant and you continue to be the person,

It is acceptable.

It is right.

But now you know you are the witness of the person.

You are not the person.

So now what is the better knowledge?

I am the witness is the better knowledge.

And if I continue to pretend to be the person,

That becomes sin.

Do you see that?

That is called Pragyaprad.

So don't step down once you've gone up is what he's saying.

If you step down to doership,

To experiencership,

To being the person,

Then you are going against your better knowledge.

What is your better knowledge?

I am the witness of the person.

I am the witness of the doer.

I am the witness of the experiencer.

I am not the doer.

I am not the experiencer.

I am not the person.

There are people who slipped.

They're called fallen yogis.

You've heard the term,

No?

Fallen yogis.

Yes,

They get pulled back.

So there are so many yogis out there who still believe I am this person and this person needs money.

Now you pay me for this knowledge.

You worship this body.

I am greater than that.

I,

This body,

Am greater than that body.

That is a fallen yogi.

He has fallen from his higher stand because he believes this body still needs the waking world money.

He believes this body still needs waking world devotion.

He still believes that this body requires this waking world,

Name,

Fame,

Glory.

Again he slipped.

Might we slip?

We also slip.

We go to witness,

Again we slip.

Go to witness,

Again we slip.

So there are fallen yogis.

Means once you see it,

You can't unsee it.

He is not unseeing it.

He's just overcome by lust.

Maybe lust for money,

Lust for name,

Fame.

Many people went to Maharaj.

If you see that video,

That documentary,

He says truth does not need publicity.

That which needs publicity is not the truth.

He did not allow the marketing people to market on his name and they said we'll give you commission and whatever,

Whatever.

Come and do talks.

He was not interested.

Go away.

You don't need your publicity.

And these are his words.

They're there in that documentary.

Rays of the Absolute.

Truth does not need publicity.

That which needs publicity is not the truth.

So he never slipped from his stand.

He was very clear.

Never slipped.

If somebody needs publicity in the waking world,

Means what has happened?

He has slipped,

No?

He has slipped to the person.

If he still believes in the money of the waking world,

I need your money for teaching you this,

Means what?

He has slipped to the person.

Very clear?

So you become very clear what kind of material this man is made of,

Who we are really reading.

He's of the highest caliber.

He's out there.

That is Maharaj.

So he's very very clear.

Questioner.

Knowledge depends on memory.

Maharaj says remembering yourself is virtue.

Forgetting yourself is sin.

It all boils down to the mental or psychological link between the spirit and matter.

We may call the link psyche,

Antahkarna.

When the psyche is raw,

Undeveloped,

Quite primitive,

It is subject to gross illusion.

As it grows in breadth and sensitivity,

It becomes a perfect link between pure matter and pure spirit and gives meaning to matter and expression to spirit.

It's beautiful.

Let's stop there.

When Maharaj says that if you go against your better knowledge,

That is sin.

So he says,

But knowledge doesn't depend on memory.

And I remember to be the witness.

That is what he is talking about.

So Maharaj tells him,

Yes,

Remembering yourself is virtue.

Forgetting yourself,

Becoming the person is sin.

Now see,

You have progressed from sin of this body-mind level to the sin and virtue of the witness.

Better knowledge.

Now you cannot come down.

So it all boils down to mental or psychological link between the spirit and matter.

We may call this antahkarna.

Spirit and matter.

This matter is the body.

Perception of sight,

Sound,

Smell,

Taste,

Touch,

The so-called world is matter.

And this body with sensations is matter.

Spirit is the sense of I am and the pure consciousness together is being called spirit.

What is the link between the two?

The psyche,

The mental or the psychological development,

The mind part of it.

So he's saying it all boils down to the mental or psychological link between the spirit and matter.

We may call the link psyche or antahkarna.

When the psyche is raw,

Undeveloped,

Quite primitive,

It is subject to gross illusion.

Stop there.

Raw,

Undeveloped,

Primitive means low spiritual IQ.

The psyche is still lost in this waking world and the belief that this is the body-mind that will get happiness from this thing in this waking world,

That thing in the waking world.

It is raw.

It is primitive.

It is undeveloped.

Therefore,

It is subject to a lot of illusion.

We talk to a lot of people about spirituality and about Advaita Vedanta.

They just don't get it.

The psyche is raw,

Undeveloped,

Primitive and subject to more illusion.

Then it grows.

You were also there.

As it grows in breadth and sensitivity,

It becomes a perfect link between pure matter and pure spirit and gives meaning to matter and expression to spirit.

Do you get it?

What is high spiritual IQ?

A developed mind,

A developed psyche or in Sanskrit antahkarna.

It's not just the mind,

It's the antahkarna.

It is the witness that leaves its position,

Becomes the mind.

The witness that has become the mind is the one that is getting educated on its own self.

Now it's recognizing,

Oh yes,

Earlier I thought I was the person,

But I was wrong.

I am the witness.

Who's getting educated?

A thought does not get educated.

A feeling does not get educated.

Thought and feeling is not alive or conscious enough to get educated.

Who's knowing?

Who's learning?

The consciousness.

Witness consciousness has the same knowingness that primordial awareness has.

So it's a witness consciousness that's getting educated when it takes the position of the mind.

Yes,

So it's now not anymore raw or undeveloped or primitive.

It is not anymore captured by illusions.

It has developed vairagya towards this world,

Sees it's futile,

Cannot give me joy.

So now the illusions start fading away.

They don't have the grip on it anymore.

The witness that was pretending now realizes,

Oh I was pretending to be the mind.

I'm not that.

I'm stronger.

I am different.

When it takes the clear stand of the witness,

Now it is the bridge between primordial awareness and body,

Mind,

World.

This is the pure matter.

Pure matter,

Pure spirit and this is the link,

The witness consciousness.

When it stops pretending to be the mind,

When it stops pretending to be the person,

That's when it becomes the pure link.

It cannot be unseen.

Cannot be unseen.

I can choose to pretend.

I can choose to pretend but it's not that I have not seen it.

I've seen it and I've chosen to pretend.

That is why he says,

If you go against your better knowledge,

Which is your higher knowledge,

Then that is sin.

That is sin.

It is my better knowledge.

They just find money more delicious,

Name fame more delicious,

Power more delicious.

They choose to go through the suffering for the power,

For the money.

You know how much power you give me,

Sitting on this chair?

Do you see how much power you give me?

Yeah?

I don't care for this power.

It's still the time I don't care for it.

I am honoring my better knowledge.

The day I become a slave to this chair,

This power that you have given to me,

Yes,

Then I will fall.

Are you seeing this?

Yeah?

I don't charge you for this teaching.

I don't take any money.

In fact,

I have paid for my flights to India.

Yeah?

I don't take any money for this teaching but the day I get into that greed,

Oh I should make money from this,

Then I will be going against my better knowledge,

My higher knowledge.

Are you seeing this?

I'm very clear about this.

This is dust.

Waking state is an illusion.

Yeah?

Some people lack this proper clarity.

That's all that can be said.

This clarity is not there.

The greed is too strong.

The sanskara of greed.

Oh,

I want money.

I've seen it.

I've seen a lot of money in childhood.

So,

I don't have that for money.

It depends on your saturation level.

That is what I call vairagya.

Your level of vairagya determines your spiritual IQ.

I don't care for money because I saw a lot of money and I know it is nothing but suffering.

That's why I don't care for it.

I've seen power.

I don't care for it.

Do you see it?

The day I slip from this better knowledge and I become greedy for the power,

I become greedy for the money.

You will see it.

You will see it.

The numbers will increase here.

It won't be a genuine one-on-one teaching anymore.

It will be mass teaching.

More the numbers,

More the money.

Bank balance increasing.

Then it's gone.

The value from this teaching is lost.

It's gone.

Then it will be sin.

But I am so clear this waking state is nothing.

Just a little bit of projection.

This is not me.

Who cares?

Keep your money in your pocket.

It is dust in Gyanananda.

Keep your power and fame and name also in your pocket.

It is dust in Gyanananda.

So this clarity comes of its own accord.

Now you cannot sit and judge,

Oh it came for this person but didn't come for this person.

I know you have some people in your mind that's why you're asking me this.

But that's how it is for them.

Cannot say anything more.

When there is a fall in yogi,

It is because he did not keep up with his better knowledge.

But you don't commit that sin.

Now you have recognized you are the witness.

You don't fall down.

Stay as the witness.

Firm.

You have a teacher like Nisargadatta Maharaj.

Don't budge.

Follow his example.

I can be like him.

I will never budge.

Yeah I might slip because of my past habit patterns.

Immediately come back.

I slip again.

Immediately come back.

Be humble.

Honest to accept your mistake.

Yes I slipped.

I became the person.

Immediately come back.

Don't let the ego take a ride anymore.

It is a slave now.

Now let it always be the slave.

There is nothing outside Brahman.

Thoughts are Brahman.

Sensations are Brahman.

Feelings are Brahman.

Perceptions are Brahman.

Everything is Brahman.

Just like in the ocean,

A small ripple is also the ocean.

A baby wave is also the ocean.

A tsunami wave is also the ocean.

Foam on top of the water is also the ocean.

Everything is the ocean.

There is nothing else other than H2O.

Correct?

Like that only thought is also Brahman.

Feeling is also Brahman.

Sensation is also Brahman.

Perception is also Brahman.

Brahman has the freedom to be what it wants.

But till how long do you play?

No till how long did you play with your toys?

Till the time you thought you were getting joy from the play.

Correct?

The moment you realize there is no joy,

You throw your toys away.

Exactly the same thing happens.

You realize this waking state is not joyful.

Like Maharaj says,

All desires bring sorrow.

Good desire or bad desire,

Doesn't matter.

All desires bring sorrow.

When this realization is there,

Why will you put your hand into the fire?

Do you see that?

So those who fall are the ones who don't see it yet clearly.

They still think good desires are okay to have.

Yeah,

They don't put hand into the bad desires,

But they still think good desires are okay to have.

So that's why they are still there.

But somebody like Maharaj,

He's gone beyond both good and bad.

Are you seeing it?

It's a higher level,

A higher level.

So that's the meaning of as it grows.

It means the psyche.

As the psyche grows in breath and sensitivity,

It becomes a perfect link.

A perfect link between pure matter and pure spirit and gives meaning to matter and expression to spirit.

There is the material world,

Mahadakash,

And the spiritual,

Paramakash.

In between lies the universal mind,

Chidakash,

Which is also the universal heart,

Premakash.

It is wise love that makes the two one.

So he says it is wise love that makes Mahadakash and Paramakash,

Makes the two one.

Because wise love is in the middle,

No?

Chidakash.

Chid is mind and Prem is love.

So wise love is in the middle.

Wise love unites the material world and the spiritual world.

Some people are stupid.

Some are intelligent.

The difference is in their psyche.

The ripe ones had more experience behind them.

Just like a child grows by eating,

Drinking,

Sleeping and playing,

So is man's psyche shaped by all he thinks and feels and does.

Until it is perfect enough to serve as a bridge between the spirit and the body.

As a bridge permits the traffic between the banks,

So does the psyche bring together the source and its expression.

Expression.

Very nicely put by the questioner.

The witness consciousness grows.

It also matures and it comes to a point where it stops pretending to be the body-mind-person.

It becomes pure witness and that serves as a bridge between the primordial awareness and the matter,

Which is body,

Mind and the world.

Very clear what he's saying?

So Maharaj says call it love.

The bridge is love.

Questioner says ultimately all is experience.

Whatever we think,

Feel,

Do is experience.

Behind it is the experiencer.

So all we know consists of these two.

The experiencer and the experience.

But the two are really one.

The experiencer alone is the experience.

Still the experiencer takes the experience to be outside.

In the same way,

The spirit and the body are one.

They only appear as two.

Beautiful.

See the questioner learned so quickly.

So Maharaj says to the spirit there is no second.

Questioner says to whom then does the second appear?

It seems to me that duality is an illusion induced by the imperfection of the psyche.

When the psyche is perfect,

Duality is no longer seen.

Maharaj says you have said it.

This person has really got it.

He's saying the same thing that when the witness consciousness becomes very clear that it is not the body-mind,

That is the meaning of when the psyche is perfect.

If perfect means it knows it is not the body-mind,

Then duality is no longer there.

What is duality?

That I am the body-mind personality and that these other body-mind personalities in the world and it is a war between I and you.

This is duality.

This duality drops the moment you recognize oh I am not this person only.

Yeah I am the witness consciousness.

So psyche is perfect,

Duality is no longer seen.

So Maharaj says fantastic you have said it.

Questioner says still I have to repeat my very simple question.

Who makes the distinction between sin and virtue?

Paap and Punya.

Who makes that distinction?

So Maharaj says he who has a body sins with the body.

He who has a mind sins with the mind.

What does this mean?

If you feel you are free,

You are free.

If you feel you are bound,

You are bound.

If you think I am this body,

Yes then you will do action.

You will say I am the doer.

I am the one who failed at this action.

So you're sinning with the body.

If you feel I am the mind,

Yes I gave the wrong command to the body.

I did wrong and you're sinning with the mind.

Because again you're considering I am the doer.

Yeah or I did it.

See I am so great,

I am so intelligent.

This is also a sin because you're thinking you are the doer.

So one who thinks he's the body sins with the body.

One who thinks he's the mind sins with the mind.

Clear?

So questioner says surely the mere possession of mind and body does not compel to sin.

There must be a third factor at the root of it.

I come back again and again to this question of sin and virtue because nowadays young people keep on saying that there is no such thing as sin,

That one need not be squeamish and should follow the moment's desire readily.

They will accept neither tradition nor authority and can be influenced only by solid and honest thought.

If they refrain from certain actions it is through fear of police rather than by conviction.

Undoubtedly there is something in what they say for we can see how our values change from place to place and time to time.

For instance killing in war is great virtue today and may be considered a horrible crime next century.

Maharaj says a man who moves with the earth will necessarily experience days and night.

He who stays with the sun will know no darkness.

Highlight.

Yeah?

One who moves with the earth he will experience days and nights.

He who stays with the sun will know no darkness.

This is the sun.

I am the witness.

Yeah?

The waking appears and disappears.

The dream appears and disappears.

Deep sleep appears and disappears.

I am always there.

When I'm very clear I'm maintaining my stand as the witness of the three states.

Means I am with the sun.

I will know no darkness.

The moment I get lost in the waking state,

Anything of the waking state,

Relationships,

Money,

Name,

Fame,

Success,

Failure,

Then I am lost.

I will be stuck in darkness,

Light,

Darkness,

Light,

Darkness,

Light.

Very clear?

Yeah?

So be pure.

Away from the waking state.

Turn inwards.

A man who moves with the earth will necessarily experience days and nights.

He who stays with the sun will know no darkness.

My world is not yours.

As I see it,

You all are on a stage performing.

There is no reality about your comings and goings and your problems are so unreal.

Yeah?

You're all faking it.

Pretending.

Hypocrites.

Dhoongi log.

You're all on stage just performing something.

There's no meaning to it.

Nonsense.

Rubbish.

Yeah?

It's very very clear.

Your problems are unreal.

Questioner says we may be sleepwalkers or subject to nightmares.

Is there nothing you can do?

He's asking him to help.

So Maharaj says I'm doing.

I did enter your dreamlike state to tell you stop hurting yourself and others.

Stop suffering.

Wake up.

Questioner says then why don't we wake up?

Maharaj says you will.

I shall not be thwarted.

It may take some time.

When you shall begin to question your dream,

Awakening will be not too far away.

So you question.

You question everything.

Stop being a hypocrite.

Stop being a hypocrite and question everything.

Yeah?

Then awakening is not too far away and it's not so tough really.

It's really not so tough.

It's very simple.

It's very simple.

Just drop this.

This whatever you're stuck in here.

That list of attachments that you've made.

Those who have not made,

Please start making your list of attachments.

Those those little things.

Those are the things that pull you and make you feel this waking state is real.

It's not.

It's not.

Unnecessary you're playing on stage,

Performing.

You come and tell me about your family,

Huh?

Okay,

I'm listening to you.

You're faking it.

You're pretending.

You're pretending.

Wake up.

Wake up and pretending.

Can I stop pretending?

Can I stop being a dhungi?

Stop being a hypocrite.

See the truth and be with the truth.

Now have the courage to stick to the truth.

Yeah?

Practice sticking to the truth here.

Don't think,

Oh,

I'll do it when I go back home.

There is no happening there.

Here,

Right now.

Just the memory of all those tigers in your life.

The unhappy elements in your personal world.

Those I call the tigers.

The happy elements in your personal world.

Those I call butterflies.

So all these tigers and butterflies bring their memories in front of you.

Can you just be a sakshi,

A witness to the memory without jumping in?

I will not budge from my stand.

This is the better knowledge that I have.

I'm not going to commit a sin by coming down.

Now you become very firm in your resolution.

Yeah?

Let them all perform on stage.

I quit the drama.

Do you have the courage to quit alone?

This is something that you need to mull over tonight.

Do I have the courage to quit alone?

Your family members will not quit,

Huh?

Remember,

Those are reflections of me running on residual fuel.

I have put in a lot of fuel into that reflection.

It's going to continue for a while.

So they are not going to quit the drama.

Am I ready to stand alone?

Quit alone?

I'm going to stop being a dhongi.

Stop being a hypocrite.

Be honest.

Be truthful.

Then awakening is not too far away.

It's not a miracle,

Number one.

It's not something that is achievable by somebody great.

No.

Very simple it is.

It's simply maturing.

As long as I'm ready to let go of all these attachments which have proved to be futile to me,

Time and again,

Time and again,

They have proved to be futile.

I'm just playing that game with myself and I know it.

Within I know I'm playing this game.

It's not new to me.

Now I choose to quit.

Do you see what I'm saying?

So tonight,

Sit and mull on this.

Am I ready to stop being a dhongi?

Stop being a hypocrite.

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