I Am That - To Know What You Are, Find What You Are Not - 2

Listen to Ektaji talk about Nisargadatta Maharaj's book I Am That. Nisargadatta Maharaj was a teacher who did not propound any ideology or religion, but gently unwrapped the mystery of the self. I Am That preserves his dialogs with the followers who came from around the world seeking guidance in destroying false identities.

Transcript

So Maharaj says neither are real. Questioner says surely I am real enough to merit your reply and I am a person. We are having this question answer session. You are saying something to me. I am saying yes, Your answer is correct. We are having this conversation. That means I am real. I am here. I am a person. I am answering your question. That means I am real. I am a person. That is his understanding. He is stuck somewhere. So Maharaj says not when asleep. What is not when asleep? This I am a person called Ekta. Where is she in the deep sleep state? She is not there. I do not find Ekta. I do not find Jnana Sangha. I do not find people, Friends, Family, None of it. Not when asleep. The person is not there in the deep sleep state. You might want to write that down because that is how the conversation continues. I will read that again. Surely I am real enough to merit your reply and I am a person. Maharaj says not when asleep. Full form of the sentence. You are not the person in the deep sleep state. So questioner says submergence is not absence. Even though asleep, I am a person. That part of the sentence is eaten up. It is there in Marathi. I am a person. Full sentence is there in Marathi. Submergence is not absence. Even though asleep, I am a person. Exactly how you believed that I, This body-mind called Ekta, I am the person that is there in the waking state and is now lying down to sleep in the night. So I, The body-mind called Ekta, Am asleep. I the person is still there on the bed. I always believed this throughout my life. So he's saying though I was submerged. Submerged means my consciousness was inward turned or I was completely internalized, Absorbed, Submerged. Though I was submerged, It does not mean I was absent. Means I was not there. Very valid his argument is. That's exactly how we thought earlier. So submergence is not absence. Even though asleep, I am a person. I am a person sleeping on the bed. But what is Maharaj's argument? Is that your direct experience? Is that your direct experience that I am a person asleep on the bed in the deep sleep state? In your direct experience, Can you see that? No. There your argument falls flat on its face. Yeah. Because it is not your direct experience. Very very clear. Yeah. So let's see what Maharaj says. To be a person, You must be self-conscious. Are you so always? Self-conscious means conscious about the person. Yeah. To be a person, You must be self-conscious because now I consider myself as this body-mind personality called Ekta. Am I always conscious of this person called Ekta? You ask yourself, Are you always conscious of the person called Gitanjali? Are you always conscious of the person called Satyen? Are you always conscious of the person called Shailaja? Whatever name label has been given to the body-mind. Am I always conscious? Don't look ahead at what the person answers. You answer for yourself. No. I am not always conscious. Perfect. So let's see that. To be a person, You must be self-conscious. Are you so always? Questioner says, Not when I sleep of course, Nor when I am in a swoon or drugged. Yeah. You can write n number of things that you do when you completely lose consciousness of this body-mind. You go for a movie. Wow. You're totally lost in the drama and the tragedy and you're totally taken away. You forget you're sitting in the audience. You become one person on the screen. You think you are running and suddenly your partner taps you. Calm down. Stop crying. Oh, I'm here. Then you are conscious of the person. Are you seeing this? So like this there are a zillion things. Whatever pulls you. For an artist, His art pulls him away. He forgets he is the one creating the art. He becomes the art. Yeah. For a dancer, He forgets that he is performing. He becomes the dance. So there are zillion things that you do in which you get absorbed totally. Correct? Not just sleep. Yeah. You sit and think about your childhood, In your lost, In your childhood memories. There you're gone. You're not the person sitting on the sofa with a nice cup of tea. You've forgotten this person. You've become the childhood ekta in the mind, In the memory. Do you see this what I'm saying? Yeah. So there are a zillion times in the day when I am not conscious of the person. It was not just sleep. You write a few more examples that you can come up with. I just threw a few out there for you to get started. To be a person, You must be self-conscious. Are you so always? Answer, Not when I sleep of course, Nor when I am in a swoon or drunk. Maharaj says during waking hours, Are you continually self-conscious? Yeah. Because this person has only gone to sleep or when he's drugged. Yeah. He is not still seeing the waking hours. So questioner says, No, Sometimes I'm absent-minded or just absorbed. So Maharaj says, Are you a person during the gaps in self-consciousness? Don't read the answer. You think, Am I a person when I have become that young ekta in the childhood memory and forgotten that I'm this person sitting on the sofa with my coffee mug, With my tea mug, This complete, This is absent. You've become that little girl, Little boy in the mind, In the memory. Do you recognize this? So are you the person in these gaps? Ask yourself this question. You should experiment during the day now. You have a nice long day ahead of you. Experiment during the day. It'll naturally happen. The mind gets lost here. It gets lost there. This happens. That happens. You take an afternoon nap. All these things happen. Recognize. Am I the person in that gap where I'm not conscious of the person? When I'm not conscious, I'm ekta. Am I ekta, The person? The label ekta was given to this body-mind, No? So that she could be distinguished from the other baby in the family. It'll be so difficult to say baby one, Baby two, Baby three. Might as well give them names. So do you see the label belongs to that body-mind? Do you see this? Yeah. So this label, Am I aware of it all the time in my waking state? Suppose I'm awake 16 hours, 18 hours. Continuously for those 18 hours, Is there consciousness of the person? If not, In that gap where there is no consciousness of the person, Am I the person called ekta? Contemplate. Experiment. Yeah. Reach that answer by yourself. Don't believe ekta. Don't believe Maharaj. I have to verify. Okay. During your waking hours, Are you continually self-conscious? No. Sometimes I'm absent-minded or just absorbed. Maharaj says, Are you a person during the gaps in self-consciousness? Of course, I am the same person throughout. I remember myself as I was yesterday and yesteryears. Definitely, I am the same person. So Maharaj throws his most popular googly. So to be a person, You need memory. Yeah. So I remember means to be a person, I need memory. What if I have amnesia? That means I'm not a person. So to be a person, You need memory. Questioner says, Of course, Yes. So Maharaj says, And without memory, What are you? So questioner says, Incomplete memory entails incomplete personality. Without memory, I cannot exist as a person. So Maharaj says, Surely you can exist without memory. You do so in sleep. So questioner says, Only in the sense of remaining alive, Not as a person. Yeah. So Maharaj says, Since you admit that as a person, You have only intermittent existence, Can you tell me what are you in the intervals in between experiencing yourself as a person? What are you then? If you're saying person is memory, Person is memory. I don't have memory from here to point A to point B. I have no memory. So I'm not a person. What am I? I'll read that again. Incomplete memory entails incomplete personality. Without memory, I cannot exist as a person. Maharaj says, Surely you can exist without memory. You do so in sleep. Questioner says, Only in the sense of remaining alive, Not as a person. So Maharaj says, Since you admit that as a person, You have only intermittent existence, Can you tell me what are you in the intervals in between experiencing yourself as a person? What are you? What are you in those gaps where you are not a person, Where you do not have memory? What are you? Can you tell me? So questioner says, I am but not as a person since I am not conscious of myself in the intervals. I can only say that I exist but not as a person. There is the key. Yes, There is the key. So I exist but I don't exist as the person. That means there is one level that you have not gone beyond. You have gotten stuck to the body-mind personality. So he himself comes to the answer. See, So beautifully Maharaj brought him to his own answer. Maharaj did not directly answer the question. Just through self-inquiry question, Maharaj got him to the final answer. I'll read that again. I am but not as a person since I am not conscious of myself in the intervals. I can only say that I exist but not as a person. So Maharaj says, Shall we call it impersonal existence? Yeah, Because there is no person. So impersonal existence. Questioner says, I would rather call it unconscious existence. I am but I do not know that I am. Now, Second Gugli of Maharaj. You have said just now, I am but I do not know that I am. Could you possibly say it about your being in an unconscious state? Means when you are unconscious. For example, You have gone to the doctor. He's given you anesthesia before a procedure. You're in an unconscious state. About your unconscious state, During your unconscious state, In your direct experience, Can you say I am but I do not know I am? Can you say I am but I do not know I am? No, You cannot say it. So, Questioner says, No, I could not. Maharaj says, You can only describe it in the past tense. I did not know. I was unconscious. What does that mean? It is the sense of not remembering. Not remembering is different from not being conscious. Two different things. This is where Maharaj is going. Because memory is of the object body-mind. Consciousness is beyond. It is the objectlessness at the objectlessness level. At the object level is the memory. So, When I think that I cannot remember, I feel I am unconscious. But that's not true. What Maharaj is going to what he's saying, Is it a possibility that you are conscious but you cannot remember that you are conscious? Do you see? Yeah, Where Maharaj is going? Read that again. You have said just now, I am but I do not know that I am. Could you possibly say it about your being in an unconscious state? Questioner says, No, I could not. Maharaj says, You can only describe it in the past tense. I did not know. I was unconscious. In the sense of not remembering. Do you get it? I remember something and then I can make a statement about it. Yes, And I don't remember something. I just say, I don't know. Yeah, I assume. After that, I assume. I'm not giving a direct statement about my direct experience because I don't have that experience. So, I don't remember it. Then I create the story that I was not dead. I was not conscious. Now, These are all stories. The truth, The bottom truth is that I do not remember. Period. Nothing else. Very clear? Yeah. So, Those who have already started practicing that I recognize that the waking state appeared. It played for a few hours and disappeared. I recognize that the dream state appeared, Played for a few hours and disappeared. And I recognize the absence of the waking and dream state. That's why I have the clear memory of nothing. I said so clearly there was nothing. Yes, But because the mind does not like nothing, Now it wants to create more stories. Oh, I was not there in the deep sleep state. I was absent. No, No, No. Then who knows that there was nothing? So, The one who's saying I was not there is the story part. Niti. Niti. To find what you are, What do you have to do? Do Niti Niti with that which you are not. No, No. This was a story later I created. I was absent. I was not there. Story. I don't know that in my direct experience. In my direct experience, What do I know? Nothing. That's it. Stop there. Do you see where I'm going with this? I'm going a little more than this chapter. Yeah. In your direct experience, In the deep sleep state, The truth is there is nothing. What is this nothing referring to? It is directly referring to the something in the dream state and the something in the waking state. These some things of the waking and the dream state were not there in the deep sleep state and therefore, I experience nothingness. I say nothing. That is my only direct experience. That's it. After that is story that the mind does not like nothing. It feels, Oh, That's incomplete. Let me make up a story and the story part is I was absent. I was not there. Do you get it? Yeah. Now, This is all coming from the mind and memory because it does not remember anything and it wants to remember something. It wants to create a story. Do you see that? The ego loves stories. The ego hates nothingness. It says what? What nothing? No, There has to be something. Very, Very clear. Have you noticed this thing in your ego? Yeah. It does not like too much peace also because peace is nothingness, No? Everything is very peaceful, Quiet. Now, The ego wants some drama. So, It will put on some big drama serial and create all stories so that the mind gets out of the peace of nothing. It does not like that peace of nothing. It loves story. So, If you've noticed this, It's the same thing carried into my deep sleep, My own direct experience. I cover it up with stories. Students who are practicing this, Strengthen your practice. Stick to the truth. Be authentic. I will say only that which is my direct experience. I will learn to discard the stories of the ego, The stories of the mind. Now, Bring this into your daily life. It will really enhance your waking state. You will see it will enhance your waking state daily routine. It will make the life very peaceful and quiet. Less drama, Less nonsense, More peace. How? Simply by discarding the stories that the mind creates. To find what you are, First find what you are not. That story that you are not and then reject it. So, Maharaj says you can only describe it in the past tense. I did not know. I was unconscious in the sense of not remembering. Having been unconscious, How could I remember and what? This is the questioner. So, Maharaj says, Were you really unconscious or you just do not remember? So, Questioner is a little confused because he considers himself to be the body-mind. So, He considers the mind being conscious and the mind having memory. So, He is considering it at the same level. So, He is trying to say now how will I distinguish it because they are at the same level. How can I make out the difference between being unconscious and not remembering? So, Maharaj says consider. Do you remember every second of yesterday? You pause and you think. Do I remember everything of yesterday? 16 hours, 18 hours, For the sleepy heads, 10 hours, However long your waking state was. Do you remember everything that happened yesterday? Questioner says, Of course, Not. Maharaj says, Were you then unconscious? Of course, Not. So, Maharaj says, So you are conscious and yet you do not remember. Think about that statement again. You were conscious throughout those 10, 12, 14, 16 hours of yesterday, Yet you do not remember some things. Correct? Questioner says, Yes. Maharaj says, Maybe you were conscious in sleep and just do not remember. Highlight. This is the biggest homework from this chapter. This is the main practice. Okay. The main practice of Swapna Nidra Jnana is to recognize that I, The consciousness, Am conscious. There is the waking state. It appears, The waking state disappears. I am conscious of the waking state disappearing and the dream state appearing. The dream state plays and disappears. I am conscious of the dream state disappearing. Conscious of the dream state disappearing and the darkness or the nothingness of the deep sleep appearing. I know very clearly there is nothing. Yes. First question if somebody asks you, What was there in deep sleep? Nothing. Every single human being on this planet will get the same answer. What was there in the deep sleep state? Nothing. Then you will come up with a story. The first answer is the right answer. You stop there. There was nothing there. I, The consciousness, Was conscious of the nothingness of deep sleep and then I, The consciousness, Became conscious of that first I that appeared and then the dream world thoughts, Images appear. And then I, The consciousness, Am constantly aware of this I collapsing, Coming up. Collapsing, Coming up. Because the dream world is not continuous if you've noticed. You have many dreams. In between dreams there are gaps. There's nothing happening. So you do recognize the I and the dream thought or dream image collapse. Again you recognize the I and the dream. Next dream come up and then again you recognize that collapse. Who is recognizing I, This consciousness? This is the true I. This is the main practice. Yeah. So all those who are gurukul students, This is your next level of practice. I have to recognize that I am constant in all. I am there. I recognize that in the deep sleep state there is no faculty called the mind. There is no faculty called the memory. So there is no remembering anything. Do you get it? So when there is no body, Where there is no mind, Where there is no world, There is nothing to remember. I, The consciousness, Still know that there is nothing. It's just that memory is not there because the mind is not there. Memory belongs to the level of the mind. Super clear? Yeah. Understanding, Recognition might happen at the consciousness level but the saving of that recognition, That saving happens at the mind level and is saved as a thought. There is absence of the saved thought in the deep sleep state because of the absence of the faculty called the mind. So I am conscious in the deep sleep state but I do not remember it because the faculty called the mind which bears the memory or bears the saving of the repeated thought, The function of saving the repeated thought, That is absent. Again, Please do not believe this and memorize this theoretically. It's pointless. Anything you memorize, You're going to forget. Yeah, Because memory is not there in the deep sleep state. Is this very clear? So intellectual memorization of knowledge does not work. Does not work. It cannot work in Swapna Nidra Jnana. It can work on every other path. It cannot work on the path of Swapna Nidra Jnana. Yes, Swapna Nidra Jnana is the knowledge of sleep and dreams. So again, If I have to genuinely practice, Authentically practice, I have to say that I am that continuous consciousness in the deep sleep state. I am there. I am conscious but I do not remember because the faculty called memory is absent. Super clear? Maybe you were conscious in sleep and just do not remember. Questioner says, No, I was not conscious. I was asleep. I did not behave like a conscious person. Maharaj says, Again, How do you know? So questioner says, I was told so by those other people who saw me asleep, My family members. They told me. So he's still not at that clarity, That Advaita level 2 where you see that my family member is my projection. My world is my projection. He's not there yet. So Maharaj says, All they can testify to is that they saw you lying quietly with closed eyes and breathing regularly. They could not make out whether you were conscious or not. Isn't that correct? Sometimes you're pretending to be conscious in bed and your family members are in the room doing this, Doing that. Do they know you're conscious or not? Same thing with your kids in the night. You say, Go to sleep and they close their eyes tight. Yeah, You don't know whether they're conscious or not. You see them lying down and you believe, Okay, My kids have gone to sleep. I can now rest, Relax, Watch some TV. Yeah, But they're not asleep. Yes, So you do not know if they are conscious or not. All you can say is they are lying down and they're breathing regularly, Eyes are closed. They could not make out whether you were conscious or not. Your only proof is your own memory. A very uncertain proof it is. Yes, Because why? Because memory is limited to the mind. The mind is limited to the waking and dream state. Super clear? Questioner says, Yes, I admit that on my own terms, I am a person only during my waking hours. What I am in between, I do not know. Good, So at least he's coming to that understanding. So Maharaj says, At least you know that you do not know. Since you pretend not to be conscious in the intervals between the waking hours, Leave the intervals alone. Let us consider the waking hours only. Maharaj is very clear. You pretend not to be conscious. Yes, You're not really unconscious. You pretend not to be conscious. Okay, Let's leave the intervals aside. Let's just discuss waking hours. But what does this guy say? I am the same person in my dreams because I see the same ekta running away from the tiger in my dreams. So I'm the same person in my dreams. So Maharaj said, Okay, Agreed. Concession. We'll talk about waking and dreaming now. Let us consider them together. Waking and dreaming. The difference is merely in continuity. Were your dreams consistently continuous, Bringing back night after night the same surroundings and the same people, You would be at a loss to know which is the waking and which is the dream. Henceforward, When we talk of the waking state, We shall include the dream state too. So all he said, The difference between the waking and dream state is that the waking state is the same continuous dream. The dream state is not the same continuous dream. It's different, Different dreams, Different, Different dreams. This is what helps me distinguish, Okay, This is the waking state because it has the same continuous dream and this is the dream state because it has many different, Different shorter dreams. So the questioner says, Agreed. I am a person in a conscious relation with a world. Now he doesn't even say with the world, With a world. He becomes clear a little bit. It's opening up for him. I am a person only when I'm related to the world. So when I'm in the dream state, I am the dream ekta related to the dream world of the jungle, You know, Running away from the tiger. In the waking state, I am this waking dream ekta related to this waking world. So I am a person in conscious relation to the world. This much is clear, Yeah. Conscious relation is important because it gets repeated again. Maharaj says, Are the world and the conscious relation with it essential to your being a person? To your being a person? This world, Yeah. Is this world required, Yeah, And my conscious relation to it required for me to be a person? Don't look at the answer. You think, Yes, Good. Are the world and the conscious relation with it essential to your being a person? Questioner says, Even immured in a cave, I remain a person. So he's thinking, Okay, My family members, My work, This is my world. I will run away to the Himalaya, Sit in a cave and, You know, I'm in that cave, Confined to that cave. I'm still a person. So Maharaj clarifies that also. Maharaj says, It implies a body and a cave and a world in which they both exist. You're still in the world, Yeah. Think out of that. He's trying to help him see the whole waking state as the waking world. Maharaj is slowly pulling him up. So questioner says, Yes, I can see now. The world and the consciousness of the world are essential to my existence as a person. Very clear? Without the world, I am not a person. I'm not there only. Yes, Even when I get lost in the memories of childhood, Again, I have manufactured a childhood world and a childhood ekta and that childhood ekta is the person now. Yes, In a movie theater, I see hero, Heroine on the screen. Suddenly, I get so enamored by the story, I become the heroine ekta in that story. Yeah, So the person is always dependent, Has a conscious relation with the world. The world is required for me to be the person. In these two examples, It's very clear. Memory, Movie, Look at this, This waking state. Am I this person ekta without this world? No. I leave this world, I run away to the Himalayas, Become a jogan, Sit in a cave. It is still world. The cave is still in the world. Are you getting it? Without the world, There is no person. Without this person, There is no world. Conscious relation. Very, Very clear. So, This person is dependent on the existence of the world. A character is dependent on the story. Can a hero exist without the story of the movie? No. What kind of a hero is he? Can the villain exist without the story and the world of that movie? No. Exactly like that. This person is dependent on this world. Has this become very clear for everyone? Okay. Yes, I can see now. The world and the consciousness of the world are essential to my existence as a person. Maharaj says this makes the person a part and parcel of the world or vice versa. The two are one. The person is a part and parcel of the world. The world is a part and parcel of the person. The two are one. There is no two here. He's taking him towards ajatavada. Can you see this? He's moving him away from his dvaitam beliefs towards the recognition, Experiential recognition of advaitam, Non-duality. Yes, The world cannot be without ekta the person. Ekta the person cannot be without the world. They are part of and parcel of each other. Do you see the strength? Do you see that your family members, Your office, Your colleagues, Everything is a part and parcel of the personality, The body-mind personality? And do you see that this body-mind personality is a part and parcel of that world? They are not two. Yeah, When you go to watch a movie, You see the movie. Yeah, When you get engrossed in it, You see a hero separate, Heroine separate, Villain separate and their world separate. Yeah, But the guy who is right behind the hall and he is projecting the movie and he has the film in his hand, Does he see different parts? Does he see separate hero, Separate heroine, Separate villain, Separate world? No, One film. There is no two there for him. He has one film in his hand and he has put it up in front of the light and it is moving. It is just one. There is no two. Yes, Exactly like that. You have to take that stand of the guy at the projector level and recognize, Oh, This is one. This whole thing is one. It's not two. It's not a separate teacher, Separate students, Separate advaita class. No, These are not a zillion different parts. It is one totality. It appears to have parts, Just an appearance, Not true, Not real. It is one complete wholeness, One complete totality. Yes, Homework number two for the day. As you go through the day today, Seeing every minute to minute today is the weekend you're probably going to go out to the grocery store. Yeah, Seeing that the grocery store, This body mind personality that is shopping for the groceries, All the people in the grocery store, The whole thing is in me. I am not in the grocery store. The grocery store and all these people are in me. This body mind personality that has gone shopping in the grocery store, That is in me. I am that totality. I am that completeness. This makes the person a part and parcel of the world or vice versa. The two are one. Questioner says, Consciousness stands alone. The person and the world appear in consciousness. He got that very well, Very quickly. He got it. Maharaj says, You said appear. Could you add disappear? See, Maharaj is taking it one by one step, But he's still stuck at the witness consciousness. Now he says, Okay, Yes, I understand. I comes up and the world is there. But he's still not taking that one step beyond to see the I also collapses and the world also disappears. He's not able to take that one step beyond. So you be aware where he is. Consciousness stands alone. The person and the world appear in consciousness. Maharaj said, You said appear. Could you add disappear? Questioner says, No, I cannot. I can only be aware of my and my world's appearance. As a person, Again, He's gone back to person. As a person, I cannot say the world is not. Without the world, I would not be there to say it. Because there is a world, I am there to say there is a world. Do you get it? His I is still at the body, Mind, Personality level. Are you able to recognize this when you read this? Where is the seeker? At what level he is? Maharaj says, Maybe it is the other way round. Because of you, There is a world. Yeah, What is he saying? Because I, The person, Am in the world, I can say, Okay, The world is there. But I, The person, Am dependent on this world. It's only because the world is there, I, The person, Am there. That's his understanding. So, He's saying the world is first, Srishti, Then drishti. He's still stuck at srishti-drishti vada. So, Because the world is there, Then I can say I am a person. Yeah, So I can never see that when the world is not there. If you're stuck at srishti-drishti vada level, You'll never be able to see the world. So, He's saying, See that the world is not. Yeah, Jagat mithya can never be understood at srishti-drishti vada level. Brahman satyam can be understood, But jagat mithya, For that you must progress to the second level, Drishti-srishti vada, Advaita level two. Is this very clear? Yeah, Super clear for everybody. Yeah, So if I feel there is a gap in my understanding, What do I need to do? Go back to drishti-srishti vada level two. If I'm very clear, I can see exactly experientially right now, Then I'm good. I'm at the right place. Yeah, Time for self-check, Self-evaluation. So, He says, Maybe it is the other way around. Because of you, There is a world. Maharaj, You means not I the person, But I the consciousness. Because of me, There is a world. So, He's not there yet. What does he say? To me, Such a statement appears meaningless. Maharaj says, Its meaninglessness may disappear on investigation.

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