Unraveling Assumptions About Oppression And Privilege

Being an advocate, ally or accomplice for social justice is an ongoing process that at times is uncomfortable. This week, on the podcast, Dr. Karen Suyemoto, Dr. Roxanne Donovan, and Dr. Grace Kim encourage us to unravel some of our assumptions about race, ethnicity, sexuality, gender, class, and ability.

Transcript

How can you unravel some of your assumptions about oppression, Privilege, And diversity? And how can you become a better ally, Accomplice, And advocate for social change? That's what we're going to explore today with Dr. Karen Suyamoto, Dr. Roxanne Donovan, And Dr. Grace Kim on Your Life in Process. Welcome back. I'm Diana Hill, And I often say I like to see myself as your psychological flexibility guide. And one of the places where it's really beneficial to have some psychological flexibility is in the arena of social justice and change. It can be quite uncomfortable to talk about things like racism, Heterosexism, Ableism, And even more uncomfortable to start to see some of your own assumptions that you may hold, As well as the feelings that can show up in these types of discussions. I love this episode because of how it opened. So I actually stepped in it right away. And as we know, Conversations like this are ripe for making mistakes. And I opened with some languaging that was outdated and automatic. And you can listen carefully to how skillfully Dr. Karen Suyamoto responded, How she called me in to the conversation. And it was such an example of a moment where I felt embarrassment. I felt a little twinge of self-criticism come up, A little bit of self-judgment, But actually had the experience of learning and looking at how automatic my languaging is, As well as learning from Dr. Karen Suyamoto about what's a really great way to bring up something when you see it, When you hear it, And not just let it pass on by. So we start off the episode right away with having a conversation about that. And then we go on to talk more about the benefit of understanding our assumptions so that we can eventually move towards individual, Interpersonal, And structural changes in the arenas of privilege and oppression. Today's episode is a primer of a primer. So it's just the beginning and hopefully opening the door to conversations and exploration and action on all of our parts. This work is an ongoing process, Your life in process. It's never ending. It's a journey, Right? There's not really some spot that we're supposed to get to in terms of understanding our own identities and being agents of change, But rather it's keeping on moving forward and keeping on deepening our understanding and action. I want to tell you a little bit about the folks that we are having on today. Karen Suyamoto, I first met back in 2020 when I interviewed her. She served as the chair of the American Psychological Association's Task Force for the Guidelines for Race and Ethnicity in Psychology. And the first conversation that I had with her was about how to be an ethnoculturally and racially responsive therapist. She's a professor of clinical psychology and Asian American studies and core faculty for the critical ethnic and community studies graduate program at the University of Massachusetts, Boston. We also have Dr. Roxanne Donovan on the show. She's a psychologist, Writer, And professor of psychological science at Kenshaw State University. She's published numerous works on wellbeing and social justice. And she has a popular Wellness Wednesday newsletter focusing on helping faculty of color and other scholars design purpose-driven lives of meaning, Fulfillment, And vitality. And I'll make sure to put a link to that in our show notes. And then Dr. Grace Kim, Who's an associate professor in the Counseling Psychology and Applied Human Development Department at Boston University Wheelock College of Education and Human Development. And Dr. Kim researches social justice education and Asian American psychology. These three scholars are authors of two books. So the first book is Unraveling Assumptions, A Primer for Understanding Oppression and Privilege. That's what we're going to focus on today. But they're also authors of Teaching Diversity Relationally, Engaging Emotions and Embracing Possibilities. And that book is really great for educators. Good to see you again, Karen. It's nice to see you. It's been a couple of years since I saw you. I think it was the summer or late summer of 2020 or late, I think, When we recorded. Actually, I think, Was it even before that? Because I think it was pre-Cold State. It was, Well, It was after George Floyd's murder. I remember that because we talked about that in the episode. And so then it must have been you. And you were working on this project at the time. So there you go. Wow, You have a good memory. Yeah. And so that it's it kind of comes. It's nice to have all three of you here. And I appreciate having all being able to find schedules to meet and be in this place and talk about this undertaking that the three of you have done together. You have two books out. And we're going to be probably focusing more on the Unraveling Assumptions book because not everyone is educators or therapists in this audience. There's folks that are coming in with lots of different interests. But I think that the Unraveling Assumptions book is one that is useful for everybody. And then for those that are educators can look into more of your second book. But welcome. It's good to meet you all. Great meeting you. Thanks for having us. And one of the things that I also really think it's important for me to open with is that as a white woman, Cisgendered, Many identities that are privileged, I also don't see or know what I don't know. So I may say things that need to be corrected or pointed out. And I welcome that. That's been part of my process and learning. And I've actually found that the times that someone has pointed out something that I've said that was either missing a perspective or was not helpful or potentially even harmful have been the times where my biggest learning has happened. And then also that given that some of my questions that I have may not be covering the full spectrum of what you want to offer and share on this podcast. So feel free to ask questions of each other. Given that invitation, I'm not sure. What you just said was really beautiful. And one of the things we have in the book is language and how important, How do you say? And one of the things is that the language would be cisgender and not cisgendered. Did I use the cisgendered? Yeah. My goodness. And that's an indication of how automatic that I've been because I just read that in your book and I have it as an example of what do you say and I still reverted back to saying cisgender. Yeah. And that's a good reminder of the automaticity of even when. . . Absolutely. For me, Having just read that and learned it, I'm still in the old learning, In the old language. And that's actually really helpful because let's start there. Why is it preferred to use cisgender over cisgendered and the difference in the meanings behind that and why that language is important, That distinction? Thank you for that. I think part of it is that it's who you are. It's a description of who you are. So I think there's just a piece of like, This is not an option. Conceptually, You could probably make arguments either way, Which is kind of interesting. I mean, That's always been true. You can make an argument for why something should be this way or that. And so the other piece of that, Of the answer to that is because that is the language that the people in the group have asserted is affirming. And so if that is so, Why would one create a different rationale for why you should use language that people in the group find hurtful or offensive? That aspect of the language debates has been forever and has this really big piece of self-determination within it. So there's a conceptual answer to that. And then there's the kind of relational respect and justice answer to that. And Grace and Roxanne, Throughout the book, And I just want to acknowledge that was Karen speaking, Because sometimes when we have multiple voices, It's good to remind people who is saying what. But throughout the book, You do these how do I say's, These sections that are little commentaries about how do I say certain things or why would I say it this way or that way. And sometimes there isn't always an answer. It's sort of an invitation to explore the concept of how do I say, How did you come about that to want to offer these little pieces in the book to help people understand like you just described, Karen? We're looking at each other trying to see who should go first. You can go ahead, Grace. Yeah, Sure. So this has really been a collaborative effort among the three of us. And one thing that we wanted to really make sure is that this is a resource for students who are learning about any issues related to diversity, Social justice. And one thing that we hear all the time from our students is, I don't know how to say this, And I don't want to offend other people if I say something wrong. So we thought it might be really helpful to provide some guidance, Especially acknowledging that language and terms are constantly changing and that it is really something that requires continuous learning. So we wanted to be kind of upfront with that learning piece. And yeah, So that was the first piece. And we are still learners. So we were having the conversation of, How do I say, Is this correct? Has it changed? And there's not definitive ways of saying things that all minoritized and marginalized groups agree on. And so when we kept saying to each other, How do I say, We thought, Oh, Wait, Maybe this would be a good thing to bring into the book as an invitation to think about language. But we put a lot of caveats in there that this is the language in the moment and that language evolves and that it's not just a language that we're learning. That this is the language in the moment and that language evolves and that there is a diversity of thinking where some people in the in-group would say, Oh, I don't mind that or I don't care about that. And so we were stepping into complicated spaces because that's what this work is, Right? It's messy, It's incomplete, It's complicated. And it's changing. And it's changing. Like, Yeah, Like even from the time we started writing the book to like when we were doing the proofs, We changed language. And like there was some language that changed in the, What, The two or three years from like proposal to end. Yes, Yes. And I really appreciated how you opened the book with your intention. So you write, Our intention in writing this book is to open to possibilities. We're inviting you to consider the possibility that you may have assumptions that you haven't yet critically examined. Most people do. We seek to explore these assumptions, Where they come from and why they matter. Because such explorations can bring up difficult emotions. We also invite you to pay attention to your own reactions to learning and consider the reasons in light of the social dynamics surrounding ideas about diversity. And I think that that may be a good place to even kind of rewind to and start with, Which is there's some discomfort inherent or that can come up and having conversations about privilege and power and oppression. And you spend a good amount of time at the beginning of every chapter addressing that, Like, Here are some things that may come up for you. And this is also how to prepare for this conversation. And I thought that'd be good for us, Because we're having conversations right here in the here and now about privilege and oppression and power. Before we even go even further into it, What are some things that our listeners and you and I can all prepare ourselves for and with to be able to enter into these conversations in a way that keeps us open to possibility? I think what's challenging about conversations of equity and justice and diversity that bring in privilege and oppression and doesn't just look at the other is that we're socialized into a space that invisiblizes power and privilege, Invisiblizes it to the point where perpetrators from dominant spaces are erased. I mean, You think about Jackson Katz's work and how he talks about how we language, For example, Rape survivors. A woman is raped every 68 seconds. The perpetrator is completely and totally erased, Even though the perpetrators of rape are almost 99% men. And so it's this way that a culture erases privilege, Erases power. And so when we're stepping into conversations about racism, Where you're also looking at things like white supremacy, For example, You get a lot of discomfort because we're socialized not to, Quote unquote, See it to be colorblind or color evasive. And it seems almost not nice to engage in these conversations because it makes people uncomfortable. And so I think sitting with the fact that you will feel uncomfortable, That there is no right response, There is no right pathway, There is no all-knowing, It's always gonna feel incomplete and messy and sometimes even dangerous to have these conversations so that your mind might be like, Don't do it, Don't do it. But if we're to seek to live our values, If you have values of equity and values of justice, Then sitting in that discomfort, Sitting on your own growing edge is so vital to make sure your hopes and wishes for justice equals your actions for justice and you don't unintentionally create harm. That creates quite a gap, Right, Between what you want and hope to do and have in the world with how you're actually being. And so I think the discomfort is important to just kind of acknowledge it's gonna happen and then to sit with, Which can feel very vulnerable. Is there anything you wanna add, Grace or Kary? Yeah, Sure. To add to what Roxanne's saying, I think another challenge to kind of considering these topics is that people don't often have a lot of experience because as a society, We don't talk about these topics and all the important things, The things that I think is really important, Like issues about race, Gender, Sexual orientation, All of those things are often considered as a taboo topic by many people. So when you are kind of confronted with all these chapters talking about these topics, I think it's new for them, For the readers and for students and people who are really thinking about this and that inexperience, Not by anybody's fault, But because of the societal influence and socialization that Roxanne's talking about, It can be really hard and confusing. And I think that's all wrapped up with this idea that if you are participating in oppression, If you are not perfectly just every minute of every day, And particularly if you're not perfectly just and you're privileged, That there's something wrong with you, That you're a bad person. And so I think these conversations make people feel like, If you're talking to someone with privilege about privilege, I think sometimes the emotional role response is, Are you saying I'm bad? And that is related to this idea that it's intentional, Right? And that it's individual. And so it's individual intention that is at the base of oppression and of the pain and the negative effects of oppression. And so part of like, One of the reasons why we're talking about unraveling assumptions is because it's not individual, Right? And so we're socialized into thinking particular ways and into participating in institutions and social structures that continue oppression at individual levels, At interpersonal levels, At the level of the individual. And so we're not talking about the individual level of oppression, We're talking about the level of oppression at individual levels, At interpersonal levels. But most, Like most of our students, You imagine that most of the people reading our book are well-meaning people who value justice and want people to be equitable and equal and healthy and have positive, Authentic, Loving relationships, Right? And so we kind of start off with this idea that your intention is good, But you can still be really, Really uncomfortable. And in fact, If your intention is, As Roxanne and Grace say, If your actions are going to match that intention, It's going to be uncomfortable. Like our colleague Liz, Who Roxanne and I have done some writing around accomplice and ally actions, You know, She has a quote that goes something like, You know, What a terrible thing it would be to be comfortable in such an oppressive world. Liz Romer, I have to give her credit. Yeah. So I'm hoping today we can unravel some assumptions I mentioned that you start each chapter with. This is some ways that you may start to feel, You may feel uncomfortable while reading this material, And then you quickly also start each chapter with assumptions that people have around these six different identities. And you talk about why you narrowed it down to six, And there's many identities that you could be writing about, But you also have to, You only have so much space in a book to write. There's a lot of content here. But the six different identities that you write about are sexuality, Race, Ethnicity, Ability, Class, And what am I forgetting? What's the sixth one? Gender. Gender. Thank you. And then you talk about like assumptions around each of them, And also different ways in which these different ways in which oppression and privilege can show up in each of these identities. So I'm hoping we can get through some of them and talk about some of the ideas. And people can, Obviously, This is just a primer on your primer. So then people can go into your fiber and then get more resources there. I actually want to point out a question that you asked in the book that I think would be really great for our listeners that I've been mulling over for the last little bit, Which was the question of if any one of these identities changed for you, How would it have changed the course of your life or the course of your career? Or for me, I was thinking about in lots of different domains, The course of my parenting, The course of my relationship. Like how would being in, For me, As I'm in a position where most of my identities, As I mentioned, Are privileged, If I was in a different identity, How that would have changed my life? And even just thinking about that, Like in the here and now, As I was going to a parent conference before this, How would it have changed if I was in a same-sex couple versus being in a heterosexual couple in terms of how that parent conference, How I would have felt in my position of privilege there? So let's begin with race, Because that's what you begin with in the book. What are some assumptions that folks have about race? And then also, What are some definitions? I know it's a big question. And also, We've been throwing around the word privilege and oppression, So maybe getting some things defined on the table as well. So I'm going to start kind of at the very base that race is just about color, That you have a different color than I have. And there's, So you look, We say in the book, That you look good in some colors and I look good in other colors if our color is different. So that's at the very base outset level. When you go down a little bit further, Right, It's not just that race is about our color or our hair texture, But that these, That the construct of race is tied to distinctions, Which are then tied to social hierarchies. And so it's like melding those things together can be really challenging for people because you don't want to think that we have a social hierarchy based on race and other positionalities, Other identities that people hold. But what do we know from research? What do we know from people's individual experiences is that that is true. And so sometimes when you talk about race and people say, Well, It's just color, Or I see only race, I see only humans. It's just denying that social hierarchy, Which then affects all manner of one's life, Right? Which is why we ask that question because it affects your access to things like healthcare, Your access to a good education, Your access to safe housing, How you're treated in the criminal justice system. It's just a variety of things. And so that question is just one of the ways where we try to trouble and complicate privilege without saying you're a privilege and you need to do better. But how do we think about it in ways that help people kind of situate themselves in a different experience, Help them think about how their life and their access and their outcomes are different because of their identity. And of course, People are not one identity. There are multiple identities. So one has privilege in some areas and they aren't privileged or they experience oppression in other parts of their identity. And very few of us are wholly privileged or wholly oppressed. And just to reel it back to and connect to what Roxanne was saying to one of the other questions you asked, Diana. So by privilege, We mean having unearned power, Right? I mean, Power is like the ability to influence an outcome. Like your ability to influence the outcome of having a good education, Your ability to influence the outcome of your child being happy, Healthy, Whole, Not bullied, Not teased, Well-educated, Successful, Not hurt by others, Not harassed by the police, Right? Like the power that you have to do that versus the power that say Roxanne has to do that or Grace has to do that with their kids. So it's much bigger than, Right? And so privilege is unearned power. Like we have power that we get because we work at it. And then we have power that we have because it should or one would hope that it's a human right or it's a national right. But then there's a whole bunch of power that you have because there is a social hierarchy, Right? And that is privilege, Right? So the unearned power. And it's not a choice. It's not like you decide that you're going to be privileged, Which comes back to that it's not individual. So Roxanne was talking about like social structures. And so if you're in race, Like race as a social hierarchy, You can't say I'm not going to be privileged anymore because I don't want to be privileged. I'm going to give up all my privilege, Right? I'm not going to have those unearned power pieces, Right? And good luck with that. But the flip side of that is you can't just say I'm not going to be oppressed, Right? It's not an individual thing. I can't say I'm not going to experience that oppression, Right? I can make decisions about how I deal with it, How I experience it internally, How I respond to it, How I resist it, How I try to change the system. I mean, All kinds of like, You know, I'm not helpless, You know, In all ways, Right? But I can't just individually decide it's going to be different. Right. Or choose to not see it. If I choose to not see it, Then it doesn't exist. You mentioned colorblind. And that's another one where you had the, Right, How do I say, Not colorblindness, But colorblind. But that sort of sometimes, And I think in particular, I've heard it more from white folk, But saying that, I choose not to see race. And so therefore, I'm treating everyone equally. And that is very much contributing to the problem. And sort of, I'm wondering if you could talk more about that, Grace, In terms of how, Like trying to say that power and privilege and oppression don't exist actually contributes to the problem of privilege and oppression. Just because we choose not to see it doesn't mean that it's not there. Right. I think it's like this whole psychological idea that if we try to, You know, Not think about something, It doesn't make it, You know, Go away. So I think when people say something like that, I like to believe that it's often coming from a place, Good place to try to really focus on individuals and try not to only focus on race. I think a lot of times people do come from that space. But the issue with that is that we are still really staying at understanding race and also relatedly racism, So it's only at the individual level. So if we tend to think that race is just a biological, Which sometimes, You know, Some people, A lot of people do hold that. Also, People think that racism is just being at the individual level. So being disrespectful to other people, That's racism, But it's actually not. Right. There's only one little aspect of individual racism, But there are systemic issues, Right. Institutional racism, All of those things that's really pulling these ideas of power and oppression and impact on other people, Right. So I think it's one way that we can keep holding on to not really looking at the real issue, Just when we're only focusing on individual level issues. I guess the other side is that once we can really think through this, I think there are some solutions about how to be allies and accomplices, Right, And advocates in thinking about racism, For instance, That there are pathways toward, You know, Being anti-racist. Can you define those terms for us, Ally, Accomplice, And advocate, Because there's some subtle differences between those three terms as well. Allies and accomplices, We're kind of thinking about those two terms together. And we are referring to people who are, You know, Challenging oppression or resisting oppression, But from a place of privilege. So I might be standing with people around an area that I have privilege, But, You know, But I'm not part of that group, For instance. Whereas advocates are people who are fighting for or fighting against oppression, But also are personally experiencing oppression in that area as well, Right. We're all kind of fighting for the same things, But it really depends on one's positionality. So that's how I would define it. Great. And part of that sort of becoming an ally, Accomplice, Or advocate is also sort of embedded in sort of your racial identity development. And I really appreciated the model that you've created. And my understanding of it was that you were taking existing models and kind of putting them together for folks to kind of be able to read through, Where am I in my racial identity development? And that there's sort of, Not everything is totally linear, But there is a sequence that folks can go through in this process of developing understanding of their racial identity, And then also having motivation and then taking action towards being an agent of change. So I'm wondering if you could, Obviously, We can't go through the whole model here, But I'm wondering if you can give a sense for us in terms of what people can expect along this path and what it looks like. What it looks like in terms of the journey. What we try to do in racial identity is to kind of integrate various different models to kind of give an overview, As you said. So Janet Holmes's model and Atkinson, Blaine, And Sue's model, And different pieces to kind of think about the idea that we're moving from a space of having been socialized in the particular ways of thinking, Not questioning or unraveling our assumptions, And kind of like accepting that, Accepting white supremacy, Accepting that people of color are less valuable in different kinds of ways, Accepting that gender is binary, You know, That we are taught all of these things. And so we start in a socialized space of what our society is teaching us. And that we then go through a process that if we want to work against oppressive ways of thinking that are embedded in our society, That we need to go through a process of unlearning, You know, Or learning differently, You know. So I know some of your other guests have talked about like, You know, Loops and patterns and ways in which we kind of fall into ways of thinking or acting, You know, That we're taught as being functional or that seem to be socially acceptable, And then we have to challenge them in different kinds of ways. And it's, You know, Very much the same kind of process of challenging a way of thinking or behaving in automatic, Perhaps, Way that we then want to make different. And so the process of becoming aware of that we're thinking that way and struggling with our own response to not being, We're thinking the way we want to, And then having to kind of struggle with trying out new behaviors, Trying out new ways of thinking and social interactions around those things, And then kind of consolidating some of those changes into who we are, Into how we think and how we want to act, Right? You know, It relates also, You know, As Grace mentioned, To one's positionality, Because how you, Like, If you are coming from a privileged space, Right, Like if you are not disabled, For example, Then you probably are really in that space of, It is all the things that are normative that you don't think about, Because you benefit from those things. Normative meaning widespread, Not normative meaning normal, Right? You know, So you probably don't notice that there aren't, You know, Closed captions, Or you don't notice that, You know, This restaurant is only accessible by stairs, Or, You know, I mean, You know, So all of these things that don't occur to you, Right? But if you are disabled, If you are, You know, In the example I was just giving, If you are, You know, Deaf, Or if you are in a wheelchair, You know those things, So you're starting from a different place. Your positionality is not the same, Right? And so you are not starting from a place of unknowingness, You are starting from a place of knowingness with all of the pain and constraint that is imposed by oppression, Right? And so there are commonalities in kind of your racial identity development or your identity development in relation to any of these other statuses in terms of a developmental process of coming to see things differently, Of conscientization, Of consciousness raising, And choosing behaviors, You know, More mindfully based behavior. But there are also really radically differences because of what we experience because, You know, We live in different worlds based on those positional spaces, You know? Like gender is, You know, Going back to Roxanne's like rape example, Like gender is something that comes up that is often really accessible to students to think about, You know, For like male students to not think about, Not have to think about things like walking to their car at night, You know, Or not have to think in the same way about walking to their car at night, And all the things that they realize that they haven't had to consider. And then if you introduce, You know, Trans experiences into that mix, Then you have this whole other layer of like things you don't have to consider. And to pick up on something that both Grace and Karen said, It's the importance of action. Whether you're an ally or seeking to be an advocate, It is so important that you get out of your own head and thinking about it and this constant learning without doing, Right? So, Valued action requires you actually do something. And I think in identity development, It's moving from a space of reacting or acting in ways that you're socialized, Finding that groove, That habitual groove that the needle just finds very easily to creating more valued responses. So, Just creating a little bit of gap between the trigger, The thought, And then deciding to respond in ways that are aligned with who you wish to be or who you wish the world to be. And in identity development, It's moving up from the habitual responses, The socialized responses, To acting in ways more aligned with who you want to be. That could be very different than how you would react without giving yourself some space to think about it, Which is why research shows when we're stressed, We're much more likely to not act in ways that we consciously wish to, Right? Because we move back to habitual responses. And I think that's why we wrote the book, Because we really want to add the learning. So, A, So people give themselves some self-compassion when they don't show up in ways that they want to, And they can constantly come back, Right? Not getting caught in the shame spiral, But come back to try again and try again. And we're hopeful that the learning, The questions, The thought pauses, And the suggestive actions can help people move along in that identity development, Or at least begin the process of unraveling assumptions, Unraveling prior learning. I like how you said not getting caught in the shame spiral, Because I think that's often one of the things that can happen or has happened for me. When I get caught in the shame spiral, Then it becomes about me, Not actually about taking action. And that has been, I think, One of the feedback that has been given, Especially for people that are in privileged positions, When they're in sort of learning about their privilege, And then they go into actually feeling guilt, And then having other people take care of them that are in oppressed positions. That is a dynamic that can reinforce the problem. But I'm curious, All of you have worked with students, It sounds like. You do this as part of your life's work. And I'm wondering, When you talk about taking action, What are some of the things that you've noticed? And maybe we can talk about some of the other statuses. So, We can talk about sexuality, Or about gender, Or about class, Or ability. What did you notice people doing? What does that look like when you say taking action? What are you seeing in behavioral changes? So, First, I want to say it's messy in the beginning. And sometimes our students feel like they can't say anything unless they have the right words. And they're waiting and thinking and trying to come up with the right words, And then the opportunity passes. And so, What I know all three of us invite is messy action, Action that you're going to stumble into it, You are going to say the wrong thing, You may not be calling in when you want to, You may be calling out. And it's practice with a heavy dose of self-compassion. So, My students, We talk a lot about, Are there ways to interrupt what's happening when you may be, And this is particularly if you're coming in from a place of of your own oppression. So, You're showing up in an area that you too are kind of damaged by. So, If it's around, I keep getting caught in race and racism. So, I know you said to think about other things, But I'm kind of caught in that right now. So, Forgive me for using an example. So, Say someone is saying something that is anti-Asian, And as a person who identifies as a black woman, I'm coming in to be an advocate in that space, Right? And an accomplice in that space. So, I might be caught in my own emotional, In my own emotion about the racism happening. So, It may take me a while to get from the emotional space to the cognitive space. So, I teach my students to have rehearsed ways of saying things so that they don't have to over-explain. They don't have, Like, How can you, How can you disrupt it without feeling like then you have to know what the data say. And so, I, We talk about how do you come at it from a place of your emotional stance? Well, What you just said really took my breath away, Or it's very, I don't even know how to respond to what you just said. I'm really caught in, In what, I didn't expect that from you. You know, How to have little phrases to give yourself just a little bit of space, Maybe to move from the feeling, Whether you're an accomplice or an advocate, To move from the feeling to the cognitive space. Although, If you're an ally, It might be easier to be in the cognitive space than if you're coming from a place of oppression, If that makes sense. But a lot of the courses I teach are around this, Is to minoritize and marginalize groups. But I know Karen and Grace sometimes teach more, Or Grace in particular teaches more to white audiences and white students. Yeah, So this is a really great question. And I think one thing that I try to focus on is to help students to think about various options that they may have, That they don't have to always do the same thing all the time. And that it's okay to feel like they might be kind of feeling frozen, Like, I don't, I have no idea what to say, You know, Something like that. And it's okay sometimes to have that experience as long as they're learning from it, And then try something else different time. So, For instance, You know, In terms of like, Issues around gender, Or, You know, Confronting sexism, Or transphobia, You know, Those kind of things, Like, Almost thinking about it as a bystander training in some way. So what are some options that you may have, Right? You don't have to always be calling people out in this direct way. Maybe there might be some time that you take some time and then check in with the people, You know, That maybe that is an ally action that it might be helpful. And feeling like it's okay to have options and not to get it perfect every single time. And to also feel very uncomfortable while doing that. I think a lot of times we pause and feel kind of frozen because we are feeling like, Oh, You know, This is really hard. I don't know what to say, Or what is a good thing. And we want to just get it exactly right. And in the world of social justice, I don't know whether we can get to this perfect space, You know? You know, It occurs to me that it may seem like we are not answering the question. Because I mean, You have to be a concrete question, And we're not necessarily giving concrete answers. Tell me what to do. That's the typical, Right? Well, Or you tell students to do, You know, What do students do? But I think that part of it is, And this relates to why we named the books the way we did, And we structured it the way we did, Is that if you're jumping to action without really understanding, Right? Then you're probably also not ready for your own responses and the responses you're going to get, Right? And so then your action's less effective, And you're more likely to get caught in that shame cycle, And all of these other types of things. And so there are these kind of heuristics around, Like, What does effective action look like? It's messy, Right? It's uncomfortable. It's, You know, It comes and fits and starts, You know? It's intersectional, You know? Like, These kinds of things that I think then ground it. And it's not just, This is a big thing, I think, For me at least, Is having students understand that really effective ally-accomplice action is not just for not helping behavior. It's not for other people, You know? And often it's actually working with privileged people from your privileged space, Right? But, Or and, I also am going to give you some concrete examples from my students. So some of the actions that students have taken after kind of unraveling their assumptions and better understanding, You know, Range from, Like, The individual level to really understanding how their educational achievement is partly based on super hard work and experiences they've had, And also often based on privilege. Like, Not having to, You know, Work 40 hours a week while you're going to school full-time, Or which, You know, Means that you might be able to write that, You know, Contribute to a research paper or be an RA that then gets you to grad school and, You know. So that kind of understanding for themselves, You know, It may be relational aspects of supporting each other or advocating for their own needs. So, For example, Our graduate students created a resource sharing list. Like, Have something, Put it on the list. Need something, Say you need it. And so kind of build, Trying to build a community piece to address social class imbalances and differences, Like resource access issues. You know, More interpersonally, Relationally, There's things like, Like, Educating each other or helping each other not use language or make assumptions that are hurting oppressed individuals in our community. So, Like, One of the, One of the concrete example is, That came up in some of our social class discussions is students saying, Well, You know, We're all poor graduates, Right? But some of our graduate students come from really limited income backgrounds and on their, You know, $15, 000 stipend, I think it's a little more than that, But it's like super low, Right? They're sending money to their family to try to support them, Right? Some of our graduate students, You know, Are getting a $15, 000 stipend and they're just living in a condo that mom and dad are paying and own, Right? And they're not paying any rent. So we're not all poor graduate students, Right? And so just even like them realizing that that kind of language is interpersonally hurtful and is participating in a certain kind of assumption that maintains structural oppression, You know, Some of our graduate students have actually taken positions in the graduate student union and advocated for wages, Wage differences, You know, Better wages, Better stipends, Work protections, You know, So that the kind of education that, You know, They're benefiting from, You know, Doctoral education and psychology can be accessible to people who don't have those privileges, Right? So, You know, The actions that they take range from, You know, The internal stuff through the interpersonal stuff, You know, To the group and community stuff to the structural institutional stuff, Right? And that's true in any, You know, Action kind of continuum, Right? And it's not that this is good and this is bad, It's, You know, Part of it is like where are you at and what is your capacity and what moves you, Right? Although I will just say all we do is internal work or even interpersonal work, That changes structure. And I want to bounce in on that because I, There's this way sometimes that, For example, I'll be in a meeting, No one's speaking up, Something egregious has happened, I speak up, There's complete silence and then afterwards people come up to me and say, Oh, I'm so glad that you said that. And there's, I thought the same way and I'm thinking, Well, Where were you? You know, Where were you? Like, I appreciate the support after the fact, That means you see that it took energy and effort for me to challenge this thing that is injurious to me too. But when action, It would be nice when people with privilege actually show up alongside of, Or better yet in front of, Individuals who are minoritized and marginalized in the space to advocate for what is right and just. And Karen brings up a point, Like you have to know it's happening, Right? You have to have learning to understand. And sometimes being an ally is not only understanding that, But advocating for policies and systems that at base may seem unfair because it's not the same. Just, You know, I'm an educator, So I think about what people put in their syllabi a lot. And for example, It's like, If you don't show up to class on time, You're going to lose all these points or these bad things are going to happen. Or I've actually known faculty who shut the door and you can't come in. And it's, I'm being fair to all students. Class starts at nine, You have to be there at nine. But what happens with the person who has to take two buses and then walk a really long way to get to school versus the person who has reliable car transportation to get there? I think that being on time is a different calculus for both of those people. And one of them has much more control to get there on time and another one doesn't. And so is it fair, Right? Is it equitable? Is it fair to have something that says that you have to be here at one time because there's an assumption that everyone's, The playing field is even for everyone. And so I think that's where the learning comes in. People think they're doing the right thing and they're advocating for something that is just when it's actually creating inequitable outcomes. And unless you understand what those inequitable outcomes are, Like what is the process that creates inequity? How have we been socialized to think, To believe in the myth of meritocracy and how do those things show up in our policies and our systems? And so one of the beautiful ways folks can show up for justice is to advocate for policies, Procedures, And systems that recognize the social hierarchies that exist, That recognize that access is going to be impacted by one's positionality. And sometimes that advocating, Like what it means to advocate, Like Roxanne just said, To advocate for, Right, Is simply to say, Me too, In the meeting and not afterwards. Yes, Please. Yes, Please. Not privately. I agree with what Roxanne said. I agree with what Grace said. As a, Like, Yeah, Not privately, You know, Because I think it's actually really generous when Roxanne says, I appreciate that people come up to me after the meeting because I was doing this consult with this education piece and one of the people of color said, I hate it when people do that because it just tells me that they saw it and they made a decision not to say anything. I'm like, Oh, You know, So sometimes like advocating for it doesn't mean, Doesn't have to mean huge, Big things. It may actually have to mean though, A moment of giving up the privilege of comfort. Yeah. Well, I appreciated how you said that allyship is a verb, Not a noun, And that it changes over time, Right? So for me, There's been times where I haven't said something. And then there's been times when I have said something. And when I am saying something, I'm acting as an ally. And when I'm not, I'm not acting outwardly as an ally in that moment. And that there's, As you mentioned, There's sort of like first the under, I loved what Karen, There's an under, First you have to understand and see and work with it within yourself to, Before you just sort of jump into action. And one of the things that we do, We tend to do when we're uncomfortable is we move into action, We move into trying to fix something too quickly. And then we often don't do maybe as an intentional job as we could do. So it's both, It's like both, Both jump in and hold back is what I'm hearing. Do both. But that it takes some degree of, I guess maybe that's the humility part of willing to make mistakes. And that's all part of the part of the picture that I really heard loud and clear from your book. There's so much more that I wanted to cover with all of you. I should see my pages upon pages of notes and details. And so I will take all of that as my learning process. And I hope that folks will pick up your book and read it. And it really is a starting point because then you give lots and lots of resources. And I remember you sharing about that before Karen, Where it's like, You could spend a year on each one of these chapters and dive deep into each of them. So any last words that you feel like you want to say that you didn't say in this short time that we have together? I actually have a last question that I'd like that in the beginning, You said, Ask questions of each other. You know, What, What would, What would we also like people who are in oppressed spaces to take from listening to this podcast? That's a really good question. I think for people who are in the marginalized spaces, Not to question their own experiences and, You know, Feel like, I shouldn't feel this way, Or it's my fault, You know, All those kinds of things. And to really give themselves some grace and space to really recognize that it's not them. It's, You know, The, It's in the, The fact that we're living in this system that is not fair, Equitable, And, And there are, You know, Pains associated with oppression. So I think that's really important to just acknowledge and not to hold everything internally. That's something that I like to say. You know, Oppression is crazy making, Especially because at times it's so nuanced and there's all this doubting. Did it happen? Did it not happen? Could I have done something differently? So the first and foremost, You are not alone, For sure. Always a place to start. Secondly, There is a narrative, Particularly in the psychology space that, You know, You need to be vulnerable and you need to be open and you need to be all these things that can be very, Very hard if you must wear armor to protect yourself from oppressive forces, From harm, To protect your own well-being. And, And that is okay too, If you must wear armor because the space is painful and toxic. And I know in the zeitgeist, There's a lot said about openness openness. And if there is mistrust and that is the way you're surviving the space, That's okay too. You know, I asked that question. What's your own question? What's your old answer to your question? Well, I asked the question partly because I think that when we, As we wrote the book, We tried really hard not to write to privileged people. I mean, Not to write solely to privileged people because so often these conversations are really, You know, About educating people with privilege, But there's education and reflection and, You know, Beingness, Acceptance in the more psychological sense of acceptance. For people who experience oppression too, You know, That my experience is real, It's valid. You know, And so partly hoping that people who, You know, Like trans people or limited income people or new immigrants, You know, Ethnically diverse or minoritized immigrants will see themselves and will say, Yes, Okay, So it's not just me. There really is something going on bigger and broader. And, And I can do, I can do something about it. I can learn to name it. I can take it and put it outside of me so I don't have to own all of the pain and blame that is somehow being attached to me. You know, The action things that I was talking about, We all were talking about are not just actions from privileged place. Well, Certainly I found that your book was an exercise in perspective taking because the examples that you gave were always sort of these different perspectives of different identities. And, And I know I can imagine you took a lot of care in, In how you, The examples you chose and how you chose them. And I, You know, I worried about a bit about this podcast in terms of me coming in and saying, I have all these privileged identities that I'm going to be shaping the podcast towards, As you pointed out, Karen, Like towards a perspective of, From the perspective of a privileged person that's here to learn. And the assumption that listeners are in that position, Which is an assumption we need to unravel, Right. And not the intention of the podcast. So I appreciate you bringing that, That perspective in Karen, You have very pointed question, Very good question there. Well, You know, We learned that it's like we had a reviewer who gave us feedback that said, You could think about this a little bit more as you revise this chapter. And so we, We pass on the gifts, Right. Somebody said, You know, Think about the reader who is not this. And it's like, We needed to take that in. So we, We, I am passing on Rebecca to Torik's gifts. So thank you. And for folks that want to find Roxanne, Grace, And Karen, I'm going to have links, You all shared links with with me about different places for more resources and links to find you all. But if there's anything in particular that you want to mention verbally right now, Just about anything that you have coming up, You're welcome to mention it here as well. I would say if you are an educator, There, We have a book that is really about educating around these issues, Teaching diversity relationally. And so this book, Unraveling Assumptions, We really thought about as the content foundation, Whereas the teaching book is teaching the process of the learning. And I think we will have an upcoming podcast on Helen Neville's Liberation Now. So give a shout out because generally Helen's, It is Liberation Now, Isn't it? Yeah, Great. A podcast is, Is also great, A great resource with a different kind of take than, Than yours. And so that's kind of fun too, To be able to do both. Yeah. So I will link to Helen Neville's podcast as well. And when that comes up in the lineup, Whenever it comes, You all be listening to Helen Neville already and happy to hear your podcast coming on there as well. Thank you. Anything you want to add, Roxanne or Grace? Thank you so much for giving the space to these books and really challenging yourself and others to create a more just world. Because at the end of the day, That's, That's what we hoped when we were writing the books and it warms our hearts. I think I can speak for Karen and Grace that these books are out there doing the work and reaching people that we couldn't reach individually. Absolutely. I echo what you both said. It's just really lovely to have an opportunity to talk about the books and especially just to have a space to really talk about these issues. Because I think not talking about this is one of the ways in which that people continue to hold erroneous assumptions and that we teach that to kids and so forth. So I think we need to kind of pause this cycle and coming together and talking and learning together is a great way to do that. So thank you so much for having us. Thank you. Thank you for being on the show. So this work is an ongoing process, Your life in process. It's never ending. It's a journey, Right? There's not really some spot that we're supposed to get to in terms of understanding our own identities and being agents of change, But rather it's deepening our understanding and taking action. When I listen back to old episodes that I've done, I'm reminded of the importance of understanding our own identities and being agents of change. And I think that's really important. And I think that's really important. And I think that's really important. Even on the topic of race and ethnicity and equity, They're cringeworthy. And I actually see that as progress because it means I've learned something in the past two years. I'm learning and growing and I hope you are too. So don't get stuck in the cringe. Stay with it in the service of growth and change. And it's going to be uncomfortable, Folks. It is uncomfortable. I love the statement of it's if it's not uncomfortable, Then that's a problem because oppression and privilege cause so much pain. And to change it, We're going to need to experience some discomfort. So I have three practices for you to try on this week. And these come from the conversation that we had today. The first one is to consider your identities in these six categories. So the category of race, Gender, Sexuality, Ability or disability, Class, And ethnicity. And pick one of these identities and ask yourself, If this identity were changed for me, How would your life be different? So for example, In the category of ability and disability, I'm a non-disabled person. And I learned from one of those, How do you say sections of the book that it's preferred to say non-disabled over able-bodied? So changing that language, I'm learning and growing there. And I hope you are too. So I am a non-disabled person right now at this point in my life. That will not always be the case. And if I had a physical disability, How would my experiences at school been changed? How would my relationship with my partner be different? How would my experience as a psychologist be different? What about a cognitive disability or a mental health disability? You can also look at an identity that is oppressed. And if your life had been different and you were in a position of privilege, As opposed to a position that is marginalized in this identity, How would that have changed your life? Start to have more awareness around your multiple identities this week and how they may put you in the position of receiving more or less resources and power and how your life would be different right now. If some of those identities were changed, This is all developing our perspective taking and starting to see privilege and power and oppression is everywhere. And when you start to see it more, It will help you take more action to change it. And the second thing I want you to do this week is to look at your own allyship or advocacy and how you may want to take action against oppression. So do you want to take action at the individual level, Such as continuing to develop your awareness, Unraveling assumptions at the interpersonal level, Which would be calling in sort of as Karen did for me at the beginning of the show, Calling in when you notice something is being said or done that favors privilege or maintain stereotypes or at the institutional level, You know, Really making some changes at, Um, You know, Sort of an organizational institutional level that would have an impact. And then finally, For your daily practice, Go get the book unraveling assumptions, Read it. It's available on Kindle. It's also available on paperback and subscribe to Helen Neville's podcast liberation. Now I had a conversation a while back with Helen Neville and her colleagues from the radical healing collective. She's empowering. She's radical. She is an expert on racial trauma, And she is so fun to listen to. So go subscribe to liberation now as a way to continue your work in this area. Thank you so much for listening to your life in process. And I will see you all next week. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of your life in process. When you enter your life in process, When you become psychologically flexible, You become free. If you like this episode or think it would be helpful to somebody, Please leave a review over at podchaser. Com. And if you have any questions, You can leave them for me by phone at 805-457-2776, Or send me a voicemail by email at podcast at your life in process. Com. I want to thank my team, Craig, Angela Stubbs, Ashley Hyatt, And thank you to Ben Gold at Bell and branch for his original music. This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only, And it's not meant to be a substitute for mental health treatment.