The Regenerative Journey | Ep 17 | Rachel Ward

In this episode, Charlie talks to actress & director Rachel Ward. A little under thirty-three years ago Rachel and her husband Bryan Brown bought a small farm in the Nambucca Valley on the NSW coast. Until recently they had been managing the farm conventionally but the 2019 devastating bush fires launched her onto a very different trajectory…

Transcript

For me it seems like the potential for an agricultural revolution.

Grand words,

But it seems like particularly in Australia and particularly in marginal land,

If we can't find ways to hold water in the land better,

We're done for.

If we can't find ways to pull more carbon in,

Keep the cover on the ground,

Get more biodiversity out there,

We're done for.

I mean,

I think that's our.

.

.

If we're going to keep burning,

We're going to keep burning carbon,

We've got to pull it down.

We've got to then,

We've got to give it back with our soils and our landscape and our farming.

That was Rachel Ward,

And you're listening to The Regenerative Journey.

We acknowledge the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and internationally,

And their continuing connection to culture,

Community,

Land,

Sea and sky.

And we pay our respects to elders past,

Present and future.

G'day,

I'm your host,

Charlie Arnott,

And in this podcast series,

I'll be uncovering the world of regenerative agriculture,

Its people,

Practices and principles,

And empowering you to apply their learnings and experience to your business and life.

I'm an eighth generational Australian farmer who transitioned my family farm from industrial methods to holistic regenerative practices.

Join me as I dive deep into the regenerative journeys of other farmers,

Chefs,

Health practitioners and anyone else who's up for yarn and find out why and how they transition to a more regenerative way of life.

Welcome to The Regenerative Journey with Charlie Arnott.

G'day,

In this episode,

I had the absolute delight in interviewing Rachel Ward here at her property just west of Maxville on the New South Wales coast.

And it's appropriate that we met here given the intention she has for this property.

We talk about that in the interview,

A little bit about her past and growing up on a farm,

And more significantly,

The contribution that she is currently making to the regenerative ag space in a form of a documentary she's putting together.

And the way that she's come to this point and has fostered a real passion for changing what she's doing here,

Not just at this farm,

But joining the team,

The regenerative agriculture sort of team in the world and spreading the good news.

Rachel was a little,

Not apprehensive,

But she wasn't quite sure whether she was an appropriate interviewee for the show.

So I finally got her to the table and you and I,

And anyone who listens to this will not be disappointed in Rachel Ward's contribution and the way that she very succinctly and articulately and colourfully takes us on her own regenerative journey.

I hope you enjoy this interview with Rachel Ward.

Rachel Ward,

Welcome to the veranda of your wonderful farm.

Can you.

.

.

Let's start by saying you are really scraping the barrel,

Which.

.

.

Let's just get that said and done.

Scraping the barrel,

Talking to somebody who's been regening,

Who's basically degenerating at the age of 60.

Then to talk about my story regenerating is when I've been at it for about two months,

Is scraping the barrel.

Surely there's got to be,

People have had years and years of experience checking out the biodiversity and the paddocks and soil challenges and cattle size challenges.

I can't give you any of that.

And I tell you,

That's what people want to hear.

I don't want to.

I don't want to hear it.

You don't,

But we do.

We are your audience and I'm telling you what I want to hear.

I certainly don't want to hear some random who's been at this for two weeks talking regen farming.

I want the old ducks.

Rachel,

Thank you for the interview.

That was lovely.

And no,

No,

I have to reiterate to you and my listeners that this podcast is,

Especially series two,

Where we've broadened the scope of our interviewees,

That we're looking to explore the journeys of our interviewees into the realm of regenerative ag,

But not even regenerative ag necessarily into the,

To an awakening,

To a regeneration of their lives and so on.

So you're actually the perfect interviewee because you have a very interesting story and you,

It's,

You don't know,

You haven't heard it.

Could be dull as ditz water.

I know.

It is.

I've googled all the stuff.

You believe all the bullshit.

I've made a bit of it.

There's more bullshit in my Google feed than there is on that.

I'll tell you that much.

There's a lot of,

There's a lot out there in that.

No,

This is exciting because this is,

This is an example of,

Of,

Of a person who has had not much to do with regenerative ag for a long,

Long period of time and then has,

For whatever reason,

Which we'll explore,

Stepped into it.

And you're not just stepped in,

You've got into it in a big way,

Even though you're sitting here going,

Oh,

It's only a couple of weeks or so many months.

You're,

You,

Which we will get to,

You,

You have embraced it.

Like I don't know,

I don't know anyone else who's embraced it the way you have.

We all do.

That's what's so sort of,

I suppose,

Kind of infectious about this whole regen game is that everybody jumps into it like lock,

Stock and barrel when they do.

And they,

I've not met anyone who's not gone a little bit doolally obsessive.

What was that?

Doolally obsessive.

Well,

We,

I mean,

It's strange because once you go down into this,

Once you enter this bubble,

It's just so delightful and everybody in it is so delightful that you can get quite lost in it.

You're not lost in it,

But you can live in it.

Are you kind of like,

I barely want to get out of it these days.

Well,

That's the point.

I mean,

This is,

This is again,

Why you're,

You're here.

Cause you're a nice person who has found your way to,

To this world,

You know,

And your contribution is not over.

It's just begun.

And that's part of my,

Good.

You talk.

I'm the boss.

I'm the boss for the next hour and a half.

So can you,

You've already sort of touched on sort of where we are and what we're looking at.

Rachel,

Can you give us a sense of,

Of what we are looking at?

Why,

Why we are,

Why we're here and what it means to you to be here?

Well,

We bought this about 30,

How old's Matilda,

33 years ago now.

And we were making a film up in Barraville,

The Veranda post town.

And I remember arriving here to make the film and it was a little shonky,

Dusty airport,

You know,

With like one little hanger.

And we sort of walked off the plane and to this dusty hanger and then found our ways to little cottages that were hired for the duration of the shoot.

And it was just something about this area,

The Nambucca Valley and the sound of the birds.

And we were here in sort of late autumn and I think we just sort of fell in love with it and as it's very easy to do.

And I had never been,

I don't think I'd been this far up the coast before.

In fact,

I hadn't really been in Australia that long.

I'd probably been in Australia about four years before we came up to do the film.

And on our weekends,

We used to gaze at the real estate windows and,

You know,

I suppose just fantasize about having a farm as you do.

So on weekends we went out and looked at a few farms.

This was the first one we saw and it was a pig farm and it had a piggery out the front and a piggery up the back there.

And it was,

It just had sort of great bones and it was quite dry at the time.

But it had this funny little white clapboard house,

Little farmhouse,

And it had those great Bunya pines coming up the driveway.

I haven't seen Bunya pines in a row like that in an avenue anywhere.

Pretty special,

Aren't they?

Yeah.

It just had this kind of magical kind of little hidden away valley there,

And also it just backs onto the,

I can't remember the name.

River?

Creek?

No,

Our state forest over there.

Oh.

Oh,

God.

It's just slipping.

It'll come back.

A state forest.

It's our state forest right there.

Oh,

That's shocking.

Which was on fire a few months ago.

The whole thing was on fire.

Yep.

The whole thing was on fire.

And,

Oh,

Here's the name.

Anyway.

Yeah.

So we just had a mad moment and went,

Let's get it.

I mean,

It was crazy.

Six hours from Sydney.

It's a big schlep.

We,

Brian,

What is the name of our state forest out there?

What?

What's the name of our state forest out there?

Are you feeding him?

He's a good,

He's a good gardener,

This bloke.

You got him,

You got him working on a Sunday.

He rarely leaves the veranda.

He's just doing it to show off.

He's never been to the barbecue ever before.

He's building a fire.

He's building a fire.

Good for that.

He goes alright then.

Yeah.

It's following instructions because normally it takes him about five hours to get a fire go.

Google it because we're not going out of internet.

Oh,

Those young people on those internet things,

On the line.

Anyway.

So here we are,

We bought it on a mad whim and neither of us,

I mean,

I did grow up on a farm.

Yeah,

Tell me about that.

Well,

My dad had a farm.

He didn't farm it,

But he had farmland and he would,

And he leased it,

Leased his farms out,

But they were always around.

So there was always sheep around and there was always farms to go to.

This is in the UK?

Yeah,

This was in the Cotswolds in England.

So very green.

I mean,

Not really like this.

This is much more undulating.

It's quite flat there,

But it had something here that kind of reminded me of it.

And yeah,

So we got it 33 years ago and were very hands off with farming.

The fellow,

The pig farmer that we bought it off,

He'd come up from Melbourne about four years beforehand,

Having not farmed either and just got into pig farming.

And he realized by the end he was earning about 60 cents an hour by the time he'd,

You know,

Sat up all night feeding his piggies,

Bottle feeding his piggies and went,

This is just not viable.

So he moved on,

But he stayed here and then we got cattle and because he had cattle as well and then he just stayed on farming it.

So we were,

I don't know what hobby farmers,

I guess.

I mean,

We just didn't really get involved ourself other than had this fantastic place.

We had horses and we had cattle that were managed by Ryan Chambers.

And then when he moved on,

Mick Green,

Who is our next door neighbor,

He managed the place and he was with us for about 10 years and then he retired.

And then his son,

Mick Green,

Who is now my farm manager and next door farmer,

He took on the place and he was the,

He was the,

What's the word?

He was the one who really got me going in this whole thing.

He inspired you.

Yes,

He inspired me.

He was the one who sort of turned it all on its head.

Really came to me like,

We want to do this.

And the minute he said we want to do this immediately,

It started to be interesting.

I can't remember whether I'd seen the Alan Savory TED Talk first.

I can't remember who showed who what,

But we sort of came to it in a funny way almost at the same time.

But so when we started talking about it,

I was immediately interested and just the way he spoke about it.

And you know,

I guess,

Of course,

We're all deeply troubled by what,

Well,

Not we all,

Unfortunately,

Not quite enough of us,

But most of us who believe the science are pretty electrified about climate change.

I certainly am.

I'm extremely fearful about it,

Particularly having just had a grandson this year and imagining what his life will be.

What will,

What new events,

What new extinction,

What new crisis,

What new weather events,

What new,

Just life changing events will have taken place.

It's all moving so fast,

Isn't it?

I mean,

The fires and COVID and the whole Black Lives Matter,

Everything seems to be rolling on very,

Very quickly.

And you just think,

God,

If it keeps that pace,

I mean,

I don't think we should be going back to normal,

But it certainly is a very evolving pace.

So who knows what will happen by the time he's a young man.

And that really concerned me.

And so.

.

.

Well,

Before we get to that evolution and what may lay ahead,

Let's step back to,

I'm interested just to your connection with farming at a young age.

Was there anything in your connection to your farm that sort of has helped you understand what you're exploring now or whether it's sort of life lessons or was there something,

Were there memories there and experiences that have really stood you in good stead for Waver now?

Yeah,

Definitely.

I think it's a real bonus to grow up in the country.

I mean,

I just have a very different relationship,

I think,

Than Brian does because he's very much a suburban boy.

And although he loves it,

He doesn't have,

It's not,

There isn't sort of memory and sentiment invested in it.

And also,

I think just comfort.

I'm incredibly comfortable on the farm.

I'm very comfortable going into the forest,

Not knowing where I'm going,

Sort of having faith that I will come out the other way somewhere or somehow my antennae will put me on the right path,

Which is very often not done.

But I've ended up in the back of Whoop Whoop out there very late in the evening and only sort of crawled home and very late at night having gotten very lost.

But I'm not afraid of that.

I'm not really afraid of it.

And I don't know,

It's just,

I don't,

I can unwind a fence and take the horses through and I'm not,

And yeah,

I just feel very comfortable in it.

And capable?

You feel capable?

Yeah,

I feel very capable.

I feel capable on,

You know,

Horses and dealing with cattle and I'm not scared of cattle.

I'm not,

You know,

Have no fear if they all come and crowd around me and toss their heads and I can stand my ground and tell them to rack off.

So I guess that's what it does.

When you grow up in the country,

You're just familiar with it and it's,

And it's your comfort zone.

I mean,

I'm sort of,

In a way,

Suburbia is my discomfort zone.

I feel much more plugged in,

Much more energised in the country.

I'm quite bored in the city,

That word that Brian's word,

He never uses,

But I do,

I get sort of,

I get restless in the city and I go,

Now what?

Here,

You know,

I can get on the horse,

I can go build another dam,

I can go and get firewood,

I can,

You know,

Get my chainsaw out and,

And,

And,

And crop my trees.

You know,

There's just endless things to do.

You can create?

Create?

I mean,

Your,

Your world outside of farming was a,

Was a world of creation.

Is there,

Is there,

I mean,

It's a different type of creation,

Absolutely.

This is a,

This is a pretty,

You can do some pretty,

You know,

Permanent creation out here,

Yeah?

Well,

My mum always says that that dam was my best creation,

Because we put that dam in.

It's unreal.

It was just a little tiny trickling stream that mostly went dry.

And I did see a huge dam,

Not so far away from here.

And I went,

Oh God,

Wouldn't that be great?

We could have one of them.

And we could,

We just had to dam that.

It took three weeks.

Clydey,

Clydey Blair came in with his bulldozer,

Put up the,

Put up that bank there.

We didn't have a lot of clay,

So we had to go and find some clay from somewhere else on the property.

And he built that little island there and we put the,

Put the fig tree on there.

And and then we came back after being away for a little while,

There'd been rain.

We came back,

Walked over the hill and there it was.

Great expanse of water.

As it winds its way back into the,

Not the Ewing guy,

The,

And it drives me mad.

The Eucalypt State Forest.

The Eucalypt State Forest.

That's the one.

What about,

You've enjoyed time here and you grew up on a farm as a child,

Or you had lots to do with the farm.

What does it mean to you for your children and grandchildren to be connected to a farm?

Is it important?

Is that something that,

You know?

No,

Not really,

Because I think you can't control that.

You know,

You can,

You can expose them to it and they love it.

They do love it,

But you know,

They may want to get their own little place.

They may want to do,

Plant their own trees.

They may want to,

You know,

Put a dam in where they want to.

They may want to have their own way of being in the country,

You know,

Which will be inspired by their time in the country,

But it may not be here.

I mean,

I don't necessarily think that,

I don't have it to think that it will,

I don't have,

We don't really have a succession plan with the farm.

So and you know,

It's a very different thing to when you don't,

I mean,

We're not farming this farm.

We make it work because we've got 150 or so head of cattle and so far so good.

That's twice as much as I have right now.

You're farming.

Yeah,

Yeah.

But I'm not actually on the tractor.

I'm not actually letting the cattle out.

My,

You know,

My wonderful Mick Green is doing all of that.

So,

And I'd like to be doing more and I will do more.

I mean,

I've been distracted,

I suppose,

By having family and working in the city.

So I haven't,

I haven't gotten my feet as wet as I could have done.

And I wish I had done more.

I wish I'd been here more.

I think I would have been,

I think it would have been a more,

A less frustrating life really.

I don't know.

Is farming very frustrating?

I suppose it could be very frustrating.

Yes,

Of course it is.

Don't try and turn this round,

Rachel.

Yes,

No,

Just to answer that question quickly,

It can be frustrating,

But it depends on what your parameters are,

You know,

And how flexible you want one is.

Because if one sets a very rigid,

Prescriptive way of farming,

It can be very frustrating because nature by its very nature is always sending you messages or little hints or changing the plan.

I mean,

It has a plan,

But it's not never going to tell us.

So I know,

But I don't mind it when nature stands in the way or nature thoughts you somehow is when other people or bureaucracy or just an industry is standing in your way or making or thwarting it,

That's somehow much more,

I don't know,

I just,

I think it's,

I would be able to take it from mother nature sort of.

That's fine.

I think there's probably other people saying,

No,

I'd rather the film industry to thought me rather than other nations.

She's far more obstinate.

But yeah,

I think I miss,

I actually think I miss my calling.

I would have loved to have been a farmer.

Well,

Can I just say that you are a farmer,

You have a farm,

You are,

You're not absentee as in you're,

You're,

You're an absentee,

Just because you're not here doesn't mean it's not part of you and you're not having an involvement and an intention and,

And,

And we'll explore that.

But I've had none of that.

And this is what's so great about getting this regen space because I have now and I didn't before.

And I wasn't particularly excited by it before.

It seemed like you put the cattle out,

That the soil does what it does,

If you pay any attention to it at all.

You know,

Occasionally a tree will die in the paddock and you'll wonder why.

You know,

It's just was very two dimensional.

And you know,

Occasionally we'd spray some glysophate on to kill a paddock before the winter feed was put on.

I trusted that,

You know,

Like a lot of people,

I was told that once it hits the ground,

It's rendered,

You know,

Mute and you know,

It's no longer has any destructive capabilities.

So I was just hearing probably what I wanted to hear.

And it wasn't really until I started to really get concerned about climate change that I then went,

Well,

Here I am joining a rally here and there.

But at the same time,

I've got a cattle farm with a lot of burping and farting cattle.

How responsible am I?

And then I started going,

Can't really have it both ways.

And for a while,

For about two years,

I stopped eating meat thinking the only way I can make an impact here or have some control over this was to stop eating meat.

I thought that was the answer.

And what I realized very quickly that it was the instinct was right,

But the method was wrong.

If I wanted to help climate change,

I needed to be eating,

Well,

Not necessarily eating meat,

But I certainly needed to have cattle and should have had cattle.

And that was obviously a,

I mean,

I certainly didn't get into it just because it made me feel better about having a cattle farm.

But it was certainly made sense to me when I went down the regen path and realized what the cattle were actually doing to the grass that then was nip,

Nip,

Nipping and pulling down the photos into this and growing the structure of the roots and making them more robust and that whole cycle that,

You know,

Anybody who's listened to your podcast will have heard that till the cows come home,

People explaining that a lot better than me.

But that was very exciting to suddenly find all this complexity and all this sort of wonderment in the whole thing that I'd sort of taken for granted,

Hadn't really scratched the surface.

And like anything,

It's not really until you jump in,

Boots and all,

That you actually get anything back.

So it really wasn't until I really started to go to be interested in regen and talking and finding out and going to field trips and talking to fellows like yourself that I became immersed in it.

And the more immersed you become,

And obviously the more rewards you have,

It gives you more and more rewards,

More and more interest.

So I can come back now after being away and I'm just immediately interested about how the grass is growing,

What else is growing,

You know,

Immediately,

Have you seen anything new in the paddock,

What's going on with the cattle?

We've got some interesting dramas going on at the moment because we,

You know,

We basically come to our brick wall a bit in that we're subtropical,

We've got more magnesium than calcium and so we've got a bit of a calcium problem issue and what do we do to balance that?

What do we put on the soil?

It's not just water and wire.

What have we got to do to sort of help get this land to be as productive as it possibly can without spending huge amounts of money on input?

Biodynamics.

We'll get to that.

I just want to go back to your comments there about,

I guess,

I'm not sure if you used the word in,

It might have been used the word intention,

But you know,

Farmers don't generally have an intention to harm or hurt the environment or deplete.

It's more about.

.

.

But there's not a great excuse that I'm not going to be as generous as you are about that.

No,

I was just going to say it's about the execution.

It's a,

They have an intention but then they'll go out and spray a chemical or they'll have an intention and go,

Oh,

You know,

I think I've done the right thing,

But then they'll go out and they haven't.

It's in the execution of that intention where they fall down because they haven't,

You know,

They're stuck in a paradigm,

There's social and there's peer group pressures,

There's family legacy,

There's a whole lot of stuff that is stifling the execution of generally,

You know,

An intention that is not to deplete and not to mine and not to reduce the health.

And look,

I think what people do with their own plot of land is their business.

But when you are using things like glysophate and it goes into the water table,

Or it is,

You know,

As a dear friend that Bush would say,

Gets into the atmosphere and it's in clouds,

It's in rain,

It's just everywhere,

Then I think there suddenly becomes a responsibility beyond your own borders.

So if I use glysophate on my farm,

And I have done,

Obviously in the years when I was ignorant of its power,

Of what it was doing beyond killing a few weeds in my paddocks or killing everything before we put a winter feed in.

So it's not just,

I don't believe anymore that it is just sitting on my land.

It is going into that river and whoever is putting,

You know,

We've got a dairy over there that uses a lot of rhea and that is also going into the river and that then becomes,

They then become liable for what goes,

You know,

Or I become liable for what I put in that river or what flows underground.

And the minute it becomes somebody else's,

You know,

You're putting stuff into somebody else's welfare or somebody else's landscape or somebody else's river or the rest of us downstream,

Then I think you have to,

I don't think there's an,

So I'm not quite so generous about,

It's okay.

People do,

Farmers can do what they want to do.

I don't find it's okay.

I'm embarrassed about what I let go on here for 30 years.

I'm not embarrassed,

But I'm regretful of what I let happen for 30 years here.

I mean,

If I'd gotten onto this sooner,

I could be retaining a lot more water.

I could have a lot more biodiversity.

I'd have a lot more birds.

I'd have a lot more wildlife.

I'd certainly have a lot more fungi and bacteria and whatever.

And my farm,

This landscape would be in better nick,

I believe.

It is in the hands of someone now,

As it's always,

I guess that's the interesting thing.

It's been in your hands for 33 years,

But it's now in the hands of the same person,

But with a different intention,

A different awareness.

And that's the most,

That's the really powerful thing.

And that's really exciting for everyone,

Especially for the people downstream,

Especially your neighbours.

And yes,

And we'll get to sort of your neighbourly relations,

But that's a really powerful thing that you have a responsibility to this landscape and to the people involved and your family.

And you are,

For whatever reason we'll get to,

You are taking it by the kahunis and you're running with it.

And that's fantastic,

That's such a lovely thing.

I have the will,

Whether we are actually getting there,

Who knows,

We're newbies and it's where you make all the mistakes and where you have all the sort of moments.

So you should,

Mistakes are great.

Yeah,

No,

I see that,

But we're not seeing enough,

I mean,

Not seeing,

We've been in it 18 months,

Two years maybe.

Oh my God.

So where am I?

This should be a rain forest by now.

It should be.

Yeah,

It does look different.

It looks a little bit different.

It looks,

It has a wilder sort of more dishevelled look.

It's not as tame maybe,

Because we did a lot of mulching before.

We did a lot of sort of just tidying.

Tiding up.

Yeah,

Tidying.

No,

I better tidy up that paddy.

That's exactly what Chris said yesterday.

He goes,

Oh no,

We better tidy that up.

It's like,

What,

Why?

Like,

Because it's standing there and you think it's a waste,

It's valuable,

It's actually isn't valuable standing,

Retaining its function as anything else,

Probably more benefit like that,

You know?

And then as long as there's an intention for its use,

You know?

Well,

I got a conundrum the other day,

Because that back forest up there that's on our land burnt.

That nameless forest.

Yeah,

So we had a fire going right through that and absolutely charred the Jesus out of it.

And every young tree was killed.

So after it,

There was just so much deadness in there.

And so I wanted to,

After reading Dark Emu and Charles Massey's book and talking about the way the trees were before we came along and mucked it all up,

The way the trees would sit in the paddock.

And so I wanted to have more space between the trees.

So we did get a bulldozer in there and knock down all the dead small trees and opened it up so that we could get the cattle in there and graze in there.

But now,

Of course,

I can't burn the debris.

I can't put carbon back into the atmosphere.

So now I've got these big piles that are going to eventually crumble away,

I suppose,

And turn into the,

You know,

Eventually decay and make a lot of fungi.

And who knows what little critters will be living in there.

But it's not like I imagined it was going to be with just the sort of long grass throughout meandering through these trees.

Park-like.

I suddenly took them all down and then I went,

I can't burn all this.

What do you do when you have,

Do you have any of those situations where you've taken down a lot of trees?

Have you?

We can't afford to take trees down.

We're planting.

I mean,

This was so dense,

You couldn't get through it.

I mean,

What I can suggest is that you consider them a nutrient sink.

Yeah,

That's right.

Their habitat.

Yeah.

And you can let them do whatever they do and that's fine.

Or you can use a number of different things which would potentially accelerate the decomposition of those.

Yeah,

Like what?

Well,

Biodynamics with help.

There's a thing that you can make.

It's called native microbial something.

It starts with S.

And we've done it at home.

And Kim Cruz at Regen Ag did a biological farming course at Hanaminau at Boorawa,

Some years ago now.

And he basically collect the fungal matter below gum trees and in a bag,

A couple of bags and you know it is,

It's a good stuff when you can see that sort of white,

The hyphae and everything through there.

So you gather that up,

You take it to a shed on a flat surface and you mix,

I don't quote me on this,

You mix milk powder and molasses,

Maybe a little bit of water,

But milk powder and molasses,

Pretty sure,

Maybe something else.

You mix it up into like a meal almost.

It's not wet.

And then you put it into a sealed container and the fungi with the molasses,

The sugar,

The food and the energy of the molasses and the milk just explode and sporulate.

Like they just go,

We're alive.

This is perfect conditions.

And they just go,

And you end up essentially with a barrel because we use a big plastic barrel full of like fungal,

Not eggs,

Spores.

And then this becomes an inoculant.

So you then mix this with water.

You can put it in a big teabaggy thing and put it in your troughs and the cattle drink it and then they take it out into the paddock and you can basically inoculate as it were those paddocks.

You can spray it on grass and especially lignified grass,

Which is hard to digest and the fungi just go,

Yeah.

And they'd start breaking down the lignified standing grass.

And we've had cattle go into these paddocks that we sprayed and they just annihilate it because they go,

This is,

They know,

Cattle know that this is going to be easy to digest.

And I'm suggesting if you do something like that,

If you were then to basically do an inoculation as it were,

Spray those piles with this stuff,

Your fungus is going to go bananas.

It's not going to get there,

But you're just dousing it with some,

With the spores basically.

And you can,

You probably accelerate the process.

That then as it breaks down,

Given that it's up here and these sort of above the thing,

Water is going to flow through there and it's going to bring those nutrients back down through the landscape as an example of what you can consider as a real asset.

So just underneath the gum trees,

Does what?

You've got to find what some fungi under there.

Take those ones somewhere that the cattle haven't sort of stomped and carried on around.

Under leaves or you can actually pick up the soil.

Yeah.

Cause it's more,

It's a mulch.

It's really a mulch like under that tree over there that's got the branches quite low to the ground.

It looks quite protected under there.

I'd say we went over there and we dug a bit up.

It's just like leaf matter.

That's a bloody campbelloril that isn't it?

Is it over there?

Yeah.

That one with the low branches.

Yeah.

So these ones over there,

But I always find that underneath gums,

It's kind of better there.

That's right.

Cause you've got cattle trampling around it.

Oh right.

So if you go somewhere that you probably haven't got the cattle trampling under,

Like even under this beautiful tree that Brian's walking past,

Under that kikuyu,

You're going to find some,

But you want some with it.

You know where a good place is,

Is generally on the side of the road where there's not cattle trampling it.

Right.

And it just builds up.

Well before you go,

We're going to go and find some.

So I know what I'm looking for.

Yeah,

Tops.

Let's do it.

And it's exciting because it's like,

Wow,

This is the native,

It's called native microbial S.

Yes,

Someone will tell me,

Can remind me what that is.

Sporulate or something.

Right.

Spores.

No,

Native microbial spores.

Anyway,

We want to get back to you.

That's just a,

That's just a little thing.

I was happy with that diversion.

It's much more interesting.

I hope the listeners suddenly woke up.

Oh,

There's some information.

Now let's get back to you.

Um,

Can we,

What were some of the sort of the steps immediately before,

You know,

You went,

Oh,

Okay.

I've got the,

You sort of touched on it with the sort of your interest in climate change and a sense of responsibility.

What were some of the things that you read,

You did a conversation you had that sort of led you to,

You know,

Whatever resolve you had,

Um,

To,

To,

To change and what,

What,

What actually changed?

What,

What,

What,

What changes took place?

Well it was just one of those things when you read a book that even changes your life.

People have that.

They have a book that changed their life.

They have a book that changed their life.

And at the age of 60,

I read a book that absolutely filled me with so much hope and so much possibility for change in the right direction that I just went,

Whoa,

This is an a brainer.

That was Charles Massey's,

All of the readable.

And I just was completely,

Um,

Electrified by it.

I just went,

No one,

Why isn't this just the new Bible?

Why aren't we just using this as the blueprint to go forward?

Because every,

Those,

All those characters that he talks about in the book,

Every single one of them was,

Their journeys was so interesting and what they had,

What they'd learned and what they were now doing.

And that whole thing of the carbon cycle and the whole issue of pulling down the carbon,

Cutting the carbon out of,

You know,

The percentage out of the atmosphere,

Getting it lower,

Drawing it back in.

That was just a revelation.

I didn't know how simple that was.

We just have to do it right in the soil and we can balance our carbon issue.

I mean,

It's,

It seems like,

Why aren't we all in a war effort doing this?

I mean,

It just seems this is the answer and how simple it is to do.

We just have to get as much health going on on top of the soil and so that we can start to get the soil working and we just have to do it on such a massive level.

Well,

Actually not even that mass level.

I mean,

There was this figure,

0.

4%.

That's all we have to bring down to balance our carbon output.

I mean,

That's hardly anything.

I mean,

It's obviously going to be,

Means that we have to have a hell of a lot more than we have at the moment being functioning in that way,

That wonderfully organic way,

Holistic way of it bringing down the carbon and recycling and depositing carbon back in the earth where it's been,

Where it's been blown away by the topsoil and washed down the river.

I mean,

It's,

And as Charles Massey says in the book,

The blueprint is there.

The answer is there.

It's just waiting for us to pick up.

And I went,

Well,

After reading that,

I can't then not,

I can't not.

I mean,

You know,

That is,

It's one thing when you know there's a problem,

You know there's a big issue,

But what is anybody going to do about it?

What can we really do about it?

Are we really going to stop digging up coal and selling coal?

Is that a reality?

Is that really going to happen?

Probably not.

But can we,

Can we sort out our paddocks?

Can we sort out,

Can we farm in a way that we are carbon farming,

That we are bringing,

Bringing that carbon down?

That seems so easy.

Doesn't seem that big an ask.

So you know,

Done.

Problem over.

Climate change solved.

Am I crazy?

Am I crazy?

I mean,

Isn't this what we're,

Isn't this what we're talking about?

That it doesn't really take very much to balance this,

To get this right?

Simplicity of it.

It was just like,

I mean,

The fact that we've gone from 12% carbon in our soils to less than 1% is,

The system is collapsing.

So it's not that hard to get it back.

I'm not saying 12%,

But not that hard to get it cyclic.

Anyway,

We're in the midst of it and it's seeming quite hard for us at the moment,

But you know,

People get there one after the other.

They put the health back.

They,

You know,

They get their soils functioning again.

They get the carbon cycle functioning again.

And it seems like it takes three,

Four years before,

And it retains the water.

And we're going to be dealing with our trout,

Trout issue.

I mean all that money that Little Proud came out with the other day,

Boy,

I mean,

I didn't hear the word regener,

Regenag,

But you know,

It seems like it's,

That's the no brainer.

Put the money there.

Well,

As is said often,

And I think it's absolutely relevant that you know,

We don't need,

We don't need to be given fish.

We need to be given fishing rods and taught how to use them.

And we can look after these things,

You know,

It's a government policy that supports handouts.

Yes,

It gets a farmer from this week to the next or,

You know,

Down the track some without,

You know,

And potentially saves their business and farms and sometimes lives.

So I understand the benefit of that.

But it helps them on the transition.

That well,

Yes,

Well,

Yes and no.

I'm talking about handouts like buy more hay to feed those animals through the drought.

So this is the majority of the policy and the support that government offers is changing,

But it is historically has been that it's like,

Let's get,

Let's battle this drought.

Let's get to the next one.

I mean,

Yeah,

That's crazy.

Let's get to the next drought and battle that one.

But they are talking a lot about resilience,

Drought resilience,

And that is about,

You know,

Improving the soils.

So is that not,

Don't you find that more optimistic that we're actually talking about soil resilience,

Farmland resilience rather than the handouts of the hay when it's all collapsed?

Yes,

I think the language is changing,

But I'm interested in action,

You know.

And so how does the talk of the government about resilience play out in a landscape like this or landscape of Buruah or Burke?

You know,

How,

What,

What are the on ground things?

In my view is it should start in the paddock between our ears.

It's about the training.

It's about the breaking of paradigms.

It's about the acknowledging of what we are currently doing.

So I agree with some very small margins,

Isn't that we know that a lot of farmers work with extremely small margins.

So to take on the changes that are necessary,

The education that is necessary,

The changing the paddock between the ears,

I think there would be,

You know,

If they felt that if they fall a few times,

Which is inevitable,

Once you're first,

Once you're giving up the chemicals and giving up the super phosphate and giving up the inputs,

Once you do that,

That's pretty scary for people to suddenly go,

I better have a few wobbly ears.

I need some support through some wobbly ears.

Otherwise I'm going to lose my farm.

I mean,

There's definitely a transition stage that people go through and need to go through.

What I suggest to people is that they again change,

Like it doesn't cost a cent or not much to change a paradigm and change your,

The way you think.

Reading a book,

You for a cost of $34.

95 reading Charlie's messy book sent you on a totally different change paradigms and we're different.

So that doesn't cost a thing.

That does then present the opportunity to make decisions which are scary and involve change.

Absolutely.

But there are ways that the farmers and people,

You know,

Changing jobs and can step through like in a farming situation,

We say you're spending X amount on per hectare or kilogram of beef you're producing,

Whatever it is,

Carve off 10%,

Put that into a biological and more natural product or practice.

Don't spend any more money,

But just consider that very slow transition.

90% of what you're doing is the same.

10% is different.

It's replacing.

It's not adding on top of all and just see how you go.

Step into it for 12 months.

And then build the confidence.

I went cold turkey.

I wouldn't suggest anyone do that.

And that wasn't cold turkey going from non-organic to organic.

We're not certified.

Because it was about,

I just went,

I can't know what I now know about chemical use and what it does to soil and the food that I'm selling to people.

So I went,

I can't do this.

And I probably shouldn't have.

I would suggest a much more,

You know,

A slower transitional approach to anyone.

So I acknowledge it's scary.

And change is,

You know,

It's treating that line between chaos and order.

The other thing too about Regen,

It's been going on for quite a while now.

So my thing that gets me through it is knowing that there are so many people who have gone through the transition,

Have had to deal with these various issues with their particular soil,

With their particular climate,

With their particular obstacles.

And they have come out the other side.

And there's just too many of them to not go,

I know I'm just in this little bit of a rocky road at the moment,

But it will,

I have absolute faith that it will balance itself eventually.

And probably not very long.

I mean,

At the moment,

It's interesting.

We are definitely,

Our winter crops,

Our winter pastures are not performing well enough.

And our cattle are going to lose quality as a result of it.

So do we then put a humate spray on?

Do we,

Have we got enough foliage out there,

Broadly foliage to put on the humate or to put the worm casting on or whatever,

You know,

And it's,

We're coming into winter.

Is it worth spending that money on that input or are we going to get it back from the cattle?

Obviously,

The prices are very good at the moment.

Don't want to lose condition.

There's all those sort of things that you are,

You know,

Tossing and turning and certainly Mick,

My manager is certainly tossing and turning about that.

And we're talking about it a lot,

You know,

Whether we were too late to put it on,

Whether we,

Then the other thing is,

Should we,

We're wrestling at the moment about whether we breed later,

Whether we join the bulls and the cows later and have cattle in,

Have calves in the summer where the feed is greater or when the,

You know,

When the cows are lactating and they need the best,

The best grass.

So all of those decisions that are quite,

That are serious decisions,

Because you can really,

You can really mess it up.

I think one thing that is useful in that situation is if we're talking about like a,

What are we going to do with our winter pastures,

For example,

And we are grazing cattle on them and can we,

Will we have feed is to actually step back away one or two paces and go,

Why,

Why am I carrying those cattle?

And there's no right or wrong here.

It's like,

Why am I carrying those?

Why am I thinking about carrying those cattle through those winter pastures to spring?

You know,

You just mentioned,

And this is by no means advice,

This is just exploring this because this is a great example.

It's like you just said,

Um,

Cattle prices are great.

I don't even know if they're cows or steers or heifers or what they are.

It's sort of in some ways beside the point.

Cattle prices are really good.

You're potentially looking at a bit of a feed deficit going into winter because of the,

And you're considering some,

Um,

Some ways to sort of change that succession or change the pattern or whatever.

I mean,

Standing way back and going,

Why,

Why am I carrying cows through winter?

You might have a very,

Or cattle,

You might have a really good reason to do that.

That's fine.

But then if you ask,

Asking yourself a better question about that scenario and standing back and going,

Do I,

Do I need to carry them through winter?

The prices are good.

Maybe I should be selling them now or the prices are good.

Not having to rely on those pastures through winter to feed those cattle.

And I can buy cattle at the other side when someone else has dragged their cattle through winter on pastures and I can pick up,

Pick them up later on.

Again,

Not suggesting you do that,

But it's just an example of,

Um,

It's about breaking power.

I'm doing it all the time at home.

Like where do we do things,

You know,

You know,

In a way and some things we've done for a long time and it,

You know,

Every other day I'm going,

What are we doing that?

What if we did this?

And it's about putting on the table all the things that you take for granted and you make assumptions you've made and going,

You know,

It's just asking better questions.

Okay.

So then what do you do?

Do you have no,

Um,

Do you have no attachment then to that herd that you have,

Um,

You know,

Quite purposely built up.

So you've got rid of all your bad heifers.

You've got the ones that can't,

That have the bad births.

You've got rid of them.

So in the end you've got this sort of robust herd that you've,

You know,

Built over a few years and you've got your cattle that every year give you a calf.

And this is where we're carving country here.

Um,

Um,

You know,

Do you throw that away and buy,

Buy in cattle that may not be used to this,

This,

This grassland maybe carrying,

May have been drenched a lot,

Maybe putting antibiotics all over the,

Into the ground.

Um,

You know,

There's all of those considerations to suddenly get rid of this herd behind you herd in.

So you're only throwing them away if it goes against the values and the goals and the vision for this business.

If your vision is to have a hundred cows roaming these hills all the time for whatever reason,

Because you love the look over them and or whatever,

Then going and selling them is throwing them away because that's going against your vision.

If your vision is to,

Um,

Use,

Again,

I'm just sort of throwing this around.

If your vision is to use cattle as a tool to improve the landscape and build soil and then,

You know,

Just,

Just be,

Be,

Be,

Do that in this landscape,

Then you would consider selling them.

I mean,

You could consider the selling and the buying of those tools appropriately,

Depending on price and how they,

You know,

Mutual values to do that.

And then it doesn't matter.

You can't have both.

You can,

You can have exactly the same goals,

You know,

Using cattle as a tool and keeping a hundred cows.

Perfect.

Great.

A great combination.

And again,

It's just an example of stepping back and looking and,

You know,

We talked about intention here and execution.

The intention is all about the goals,

The vision and the values that you place on this landscape.

And that involves family,

It involves you,

It involves the grass,

The landscape,

The ecology,

The whole thing.

That's the intention and how well you execute that intention is what we're talking about.

So do you,

You know,

Do you use it?

My paddock between my ears hasn't got that quite sorted out yet.

And that's cool.

And I think that's where a lot of people do get hung up,

You know,

Selling their breeding herd,

Isn't it?

Whatever cattle,

Sheep,

Whatever.

Isn't that the ones that really trips people up?

It just don't want to,

They've spent years building up that herd and getting the.

It's a tough gig and no one,

No one's saying anyone should.

And you know,

We sold a lot of cows in the summer and it really,

Really hurt.

I had an arrangement with dad 20 years ago that,

You know,

I would always keep 100 cows.

Have you bought back yet?

No,

We haven't.

We've got down to 75 cows and that was really tough.

You know,

I broke my promise.

And.

But then maybe you've just got land that can't sustain the cows.

I mean,

Maybe you're not going to get the rain.

Maybe you shouldn't be having.

I mean,

I could run heaps of cows right now.

It's whether I want to pay that price for them right now.

That's,

Then it's a financial consideration.

What access to cash do you have?

How does it impact your management?

What do you do?

Sorry,

You get rid of your herd.

Like I'm starting to think immediately,

OK,

Off the market.

But then.

No don't.

But then what?

You know,

Then you've got to buy.

Exactly.

You're in a position where you're not really able to buy back because the market's so high.

Well depends on what you're buying back and what for.

You know,

There's a system of livestock marketing called KLR marketing,

Which we use.

And by no means experts,

But it's a way of considering,

Again,

Not just going,

Oh,

You know,

Cattle are a tool and they're a commodity and you go and buy and sell.

It's it's there is consideration about how how they appropriate your landscape and also how how they meet your values and visions and goals and so on.

But it's just a it's just a fairly objective way of determining the value of animals.

You know,

Whether whether it would be a good idea or not,

Depending on your goals of selling or buying them in you,

Essentially the the the the the principle is you if you're going to sell,

Sell overpriced animals and buy under and underpriced animals.

So you're turning a cow with.

Two thousand dollars,

Right,

Who eats X amount of grass into something else that eats the same amount of grass.

It's cost you a lot less to get into.

So you actually leaving cash in the bank.

It's a that's a very basic way to look at it.

So without going into all the detail.

I mean,

What happens when everybody starts doing that?

Well,

This is the thing.

Everyone starts doing that when they've all got grass.

So the thing is,

You have grass when others don't.

Is is is a way to get around that,

And that's not easy.

And you said that everybody has grass at different times.

Everyone does.

Yeah.

I mean,

You know,

The best time I mean,

A lot of people who do this well make a lot of money in a drought because they've actually got the feed bank in front of them and people are offloading because they haven't got the grass because they haven't done the calculations and they're selling,

Oh,

I've got no,

I've got no grass left.

And so others,

Others who have grass,

Who've budgeted their grass and have been looking at the season and making some calculations can often start buying cheap stock because other people are offloading them.

So if you can work counter counter to the to the general cycle of of supply and demand,

That can that can be very beneficial.

Anyway,

It's a riveting world.

That's getting on the tin tax.

So it's endlessly interesting.

It is.

It's fascinating.

And again,

I only make that point,

Which we did get into a bit.

But my point was,

You know,

We often get we often look at things in isolation.

And I think standing back and going and asking,

Why,

Why,

Why,

You know,

Why doing this?

Because why,

Why,

Why?

And then you can really get to some interesting answers posing those interesting questions.

Yeah.

And often we have to do it to ourselves.

You know,

Because,

You know,

Your your your livestock agent is not going to ask you those questions.

They're not going to be thinking about how to do that.

I'm actually taking one of my livestock agents to the Kailah course.

So he learns and understands the way we think.

Because often when you go to agents going,

I want to sell these animals,

You know,

Because they're overpriced.

They go,

Oh,

You know,

Mad,

You know,

You got to hang on.

You'll never get back into them.

You got to hang on to them.

Right.

It's like,

Oh,

OK,

Well,

I'll probably get into them in 12 months time when they're half price because it's another drought.

So it's about changing.

It's not and it's not about.

And then you get all this fabulous grass,

Spring comes and all the grass comes and you put all this,

You know,

Humates on,

Etc,

Etc.

And the grass suddenly goes voom.

And then you can't buy in again.

As I said,

There's no right or wrong way to do things.

Because only to make a decision is you need data,

You need facts,

Information and you need goals.

And the goals relate to the goals of your business and personal goals and family goals and whatever else.

And the data is,

You know,

What's the market price?

You know,

What's the what's the what's the opportunity of buying of meat growing grass over winter?

And there's all these sort of fact based things,

As fact as you can make it.

And you look at both.

And that's that's how you start making the decision of these things.

So it's all about having goals pretty clear as to what you want.

Landscape goals,

Financial goals,

Animal production goals.

I want to have 100 cows.

Cool.

Well,

We don't if you want to have 100 cows at all costs,

Then we don't sell them.

It's an easy,

Easy decision to make.

And then from that point,

You then you've got to then ask other questions to to consider the fact you're keeping your cows as a team.

And you've done a very good job of spearing it,

Of dragging stuff out of me.

Well,

Whose show is this?

It's much more interesting.

No,

It's not.

No,

It's not.

Because we,

Course it is because you've been in this game for a long time.

And there's lots of questions I want to ask.

I mean,

You know,

I think everybody needs mentors.

And I mean,

We've been talking to Graham Sate and he's been fantastic with,

You know,

What you do with this with this issue of too much magnesium compared to calcium and how you how we get,

You know.

It's I mean,

You do need mentors.

You definitely need people who've been before you who are also mentors who are in the same area as well.

That's helpful.

And I guess on that,

What's what's not helpful is having a very prescriptive approach to what you do.

So prescriptive as in,

Oh,

It's August,

I've got to do this now,

I've got to do that.

Again,

It's about stepping back and going,

Why have I always done that in August?

You know,

Why have I,

Like as a conventional farmer,

I was like,

I used to spray,

You know,

In a very prescriptive way.

And I didn't ever question that.

So fast forward to regenerative ag style farming,

You still got to,

You know,

I suggest you still need to ask yourself questions.

You know,

Like,

I guess this winter feed gap,

As an example,

You know,

What,

What,

What,

What,

What's the context of that winter feed gap?

Well,

It relates to time of year,

The soil temperature,

Sunshine,

The location,

The aspect,

The cattle you're going to run through there,

That sort of thing.

And it's not meant to confuse.

It's actually meant to,

Again,

Have people consider the facts and the goals that they need to make a decision.

And it can be really fun and exciting because they go,

Well,

I never thought of that,

You know,

That's really cool.

I don't have to do that every August.

That's unreal because I've changed a paradigm about when I need to sell cattle.

Like,

You know,

People often get into this thing about,

Oh,

It's May,

I've got to have weaned those cows and cattle,

I'm going to put them on a truck.

Like you've got a heap of feed and they're not worth anything.

So why are you doing that,

You know,

As an example.

So it's really,

It can be really exciting.

It is really exciting.

This is the thing that I find about,

About all this.

And I know you're excited because I can tell,

You know,

This is a,

You've had a farm for 33 years and you're breathing life into this farm.

Not that I didn't have a life before,

But you,

I can feel there's a growing sort of intention and like evolving and it always involves.

You won't have a plan and go,

Right,

That's the plan.

You'll have a chat to someone one day and you're,

Oh,

Interesting.

You read a book.

Like I'm getting used to,

I'm getting my head around natural sequence farming and I think that's amazing.

I've known about it for years.

I spoke to,

I followed Peter Andrews up a gully at Maloon Creek 10 years ago with a microphone asking about it.

So what are you actually doing with your,

With your natural sequence farming?

What are you doing?

Nothing at the moment,

But I'm,

I'm,

I'm going to learn about it.

I'm going to hopefully have Stuart Andrews,

His son,

Do a course at Hanamino to sort of do some on ground stuff.

And I really want to understand what this is about.

Yeah.

I understand what it's about.

I've read enough books and so on.

Have you got a river that goes through Hanamino?

Yeah.

Not,

Not permanent.

We've got some creeks,

Got some valleys.

I can see there's definitely opportunity to rehydrate that landscape.

Yeah.

But I don't know how I'm not,

I'm,

I'm,

You know,

I understand the principles,

But the implementation.

What are the principles of natural sequence farming?

What are you doing?

This is my interview.

You're much more interesting.

Well the thing is people,

People,

It's more interesting to talk to people who know more.

No,

No,

No,

No.

I told you.

No,

No,

No,

No,

It's not.

I told you,

I'm not,

I'm not saying it's a secret.

The principles,

Principles relate very briefly to rehydrating the landscape.

Yes.

Now I've been to Martin Rhodes place.

I've been to.

Totally.

He's the man.

Martin and Peter and Susan.

Maloon Creek and the way they've,

Everybody's taken it on up the valley.

I just love that,

That they took it on.

It was,

It was Terry.

Who was it?

Who started it?

Peter Andrews.

Oh,

Who,

Maloon Creek is.

Oh,

Tony Coog.

Tony Coog.

Right.

Lovely Tony Coog.

And I'm just curious that every other,

Every other landowner above them has now also taken it on.

So the whole valley is now rehydrated.

Is that right?

That is correct.

And that's a wonderful segue,

Rachel,

To the,

The,

The neighborly relations you're building in this little valley.

Yes.

Oh yes.

Well,

Cause I've joined my farm with,

We've joined our farm with Nick and with Sarah Schmude.

So we're all together now.

We've just,

Because it's difficult in this area cause it's basically pretty small hundred acre plots,

You know,

It's,

It's,

It's hard to make much of a margin on 60 cattle.

And so we decided that we,

Because we were all about the same size,

We would just pull our fences down and join our herd together and move our herd around the combined properties.

So that has given us a hell of a lot more land to work with.

And another reason why can't sell,

Shouldn't sell my cattle is because of course it's moving around,

They're nipping,

They're,

They're increasing photosynthesis and they're doing all that,

That,

That hard carbon replenishing,

Hopefully in some tiny small way,

We're doing our little bit in Inglebar,

The Inglebar State Forest.

There we go.

We knew we were going to be good.

We're going to do a little bit for the Inglebar State Forest.

Welcome Inglebar.

Yes.

That's a great name.

Inglebar.

It is a great name.

How could I forget it?

But there you go.

Um.

.

.

Imagine calling a child Inglebar.

There you go.

There you go.

Well,

We've got one on the way maybe.

Inglebar.

Ingle.

Where does that come from?

That's cool.

I don't know.

That must be an indigenous name.

I trust it.

I trust it would be.

And I'm not familiar,

Um,

Bunge,

Is this Bungeilung country?

I should,

I should know that.

I must apologise for not wearing it.

I know that down to,

Um,

No,

It mustn't be because,

Oh,

Coffs Harbour.

I think to Coffs Harbour it's,

It's,

It's,

Um,

Um,

Um,

Um,

Bungeilung,

Bungeilung,

Sorry.

Um,

So I'm not sure whether this falls into that category or not.

We shall find out.

Um,

Yeah,

Totally.

I mean,

That's another consideration is,

Is how,

You know,

Um,

Indigenous communities,

Um,

You know,

Um,

Revered and,

And manage the landscape.

And there's so much as you,

You mentioned Bruce Pascoe there before,

You know,

He's,

He's digging into the,

The diaries of,

Of,

Um,

Pioneers and explorers.

It's fascinating.

Well,

The indigenous life around here,

There was,

I read the most fantastic,

I can't remember the title of it now,

That explained all of the history here.

And of course it was all the timber,

Timber getters that were,

That came up here and used the rivers to take the timber down.

And they pushed the indigenous population right up against the Great Dividing Range.

And they had a meeting finally where they,

You know,

Just decimated their lives and their livelihoods.

And they said,

Okay,

Let's have a truce here.

Let's have a deal here.

Leave us the foot lands,

The foothills of the Great Dividing Range.

Just give us that.

You take the rest.

And we couldn't even make the deal there.

No,

They weren't given it.

So that was really,

Then they were basically,

You know,

Herded out of this whole area,

Lost this whole area,

But there was an opportunity there for them to go,

Okay,

Let's divide this up.

You've got the lowlands,

You've got the grasslands.

Just give us that.

Not even a shredded decency to do that.

Yeah.

So that is,

There's a whole podcast series right there.

Now talking about the future,

Can you,

And this is what I referenced before about what you're doing and why you've jumped into this regenerative ag conversation is unique.

Can you tell us about any projects you're working on at the moment?

Well,

Yes.

I suppose when I read Charlie's book,

I loved reading this,

But I'm just,

My appetite was wet to meet all of these farmers that were doing it.

And these,

For me,

They were just,

Well,

Pioneers obviously,

But taking such huge risks and such independent thinkers to go this way.

And there were so many of them out there doing these extraordinary things.

And I just,

I wanted to see the land that Charlie was talking about.

I wanted to see the difference between over the fence between their land and the neighbour's land and everybody just sounded,

I don't know whether Charlie just wrote it in a way.

I mean,

I've since found out that,

You know,

The regeners are,

I don't know,

What is it?

They are,

I've just been delighted by meeting.

So I mean,

I've done probably 20,

25 interviews with regeners of one type or another.

And there's something so,

Well,

You're alive,

All of you,

For a start.

You're very alive.

You're very excited by what you're seeing and what you're doing.

I mean,

Even somebody like David Marsh,

Who's been doing it for a long time now,

His enthusiasm,

When you go around the paddocks with him,

When he says,

Oh,

Look what's happening here or the way he just talks about the trees,

The birds.

And he is just very alive.

And I mean,

I'm sure there are farmers who are conventionally farming who are very alive too.

I'm not saying that that's not the case,

But there's something about,

I mean,

My farm manager,

Mick Green,

He's changed.

His whole personality has changed since he started doing this.

He was slightly dragging his feet before.

He was slightly ho-hum,

His father had done it his whole life.

He was going to do it the same way.

There was just nothing particularly fresh or invigorating about it.

He started doing this and he is just ignited.

He lives and breathes it.

And so does his wife and so does probably his kids these days too.

And he's just,

So it definitely has this effect on you.

And I don't know what that is other than the fact that you actually imagine that you are really healing the landscape.

And I feel at the moment that we need to heal it.

When I was up in,

Before Christmas,

Up in the Inverill area,

When I saw that landscape,

How decimated it was,

How barren it was,

There was just no cover on that land at all.

It was just grey dirt.

And that was shocking.

And where the tree looks apocalyptic,

The trees were dead.

They just lost everything.

And yet the roadways,

The verges were still covered with grass.

They still had covering and you went,

Actually the pastures should be the same here.

We shouldn't have got it to that point.

And that's just,

So that woke me up a bit,

Just the way we can't keep doing it like that.

We can't keep the destruction up of the landscape and whatever that takes.

And I'm as irritating for some newbie to come in and say that,

But sometimes it takes a newbie to see it for the first time.

When I went up there,

I was just like so shocked by the way.

Yes,

It was deep drought,

But why would the stock are still on there?

The stock was still there.

And it just seemed nobody was being served.

The cattle weren't being served.

There were so few trees in the paddocks.

Something has to turn around because it looks shocking.

It looks shocking.

I don't believe it was,

It's a combination of the way we're farming it and the drought,

Of course.

Of course I was up there even to see.

Mike and Helen.

Yes,

Mike and Helen and that land was terrible too at that point.

But at least they were ready for when the rain came.

They still had that structure in the soil.

They were ready.

And geez,

You saw it when the land,

When the rain did come and how their dams didn't fill.

That was so interesting.

Because the water went in.

Because the water went into the soil.

It wasn't just running off and running into the dams.

So that way of just looking at land and understanding it in a different way.

And that was true.

And then the rains came and theirs bounced back so quickly.

It was extraordinary.

And Judy Earl,

I mean,

She kept,

She for two years,

She kept,

She had more cattle on her property than she'd ever had.

And she was two years into drought.

The time she went into third year,

She was suffering as much as anyone else.

But while everybody else was having to get rid of their cattle,

She still had them on two years later,

More than she'd ever had.

And what were you doing up there?

Well I was doing.

What am I doing?

I mean,

I'm attempting to tell your stories.

I'm attempting to tell this story.

I mean,

For me,

It seems like the potential for an agricultural revolution.

Grand words,

But it seems like particularly in Australia and particularly in marginal land,

If we can't find ways to hold water in the land better,

We're done for.

If we can't find ways to pull more carbon in,

Keep the cover on the ground,

Get more biodiversity out there,

We're done for.

I mean,

I think that's our,

If we're going to keep burning,

We're going to keep burning carbon,

We've got to pull it down.

We've got to then,

We've got to give it back with our soils and our landscape and our farming.

And maybe farmers have to take responsibility a little bit for the way that it's been destroyed,

A lot of it destroyed.

And therefore the farmers are the ones who can actually heal it.

They can turn around and go,

Okay,

We've spent 200 years pillaging,

Getting it to this state.

Now let's be responsible for getting it right.

So farmers have a very,

Very serious role to play.

And you're a farmer,

Aren't you?

Yeah,

I can't escape it.

Well,

This is the cool thing.

You're on a mission and you have not necessarily a blank canvas,

But you've got,

And that might seem scary,

But that's really cool.

You've got a live experiment going on here.

Yeah.

So does everybody.

Everybody who goes into this has a live experiment going on.

Absolutely.

I'm one of them.

I'm one of them.

And I'm very excited to be on it.

And I'm excited to be excited about things like,

There's a whole lot new clover in here.

That's a new species of grass here.

That poo is looking pretty good.

That's not stacking up.

There's not,

Suddenly a poo becomes interesting.

What do you mean it hasn't been interesting before?

Cow poo.

We're talking about cow poo people.

Now you're Rachel,

You've got a farm and as we said,

You've got a live experiment for those that are,

You know,

Mums and dads and sort of,

You know,

Whatever age or stage of their life who don't have a farm,

But are interested in this sort of thing.

Is there anything you can suggest they do see,

Listen,

I don't know,

You know,

Sort of steps towards a,

Oh,

Okay,

Kind of getting on board this.

Yes,

But yeah,

But we still have to get our marketplace organized.

We have to get our branding.

We have to get our messaging right.

We have to find,

We have to,

You know,

Find recognizable labels so that people who are interesting,

Yes,

Food labels,

People who are interested in the possibilities and the potentials that we're talking about,

As far as,

You know,

Balancing,

Working with mother nature and pulling carbon from the atmosphere and rebalancing our carbon footprint.

If we're interested in that,

And it seems like exponentially we are,

And you know,

There's not many,

There's not a lot of people out there who are these days,

I think,

Downright climate deniers.

I think most people know that the ice caps are melting and that things are not as they were and that there is some very serious issues out there.

And if we're going to have kind of life that we've been able to enjoy,

If our grandchildren,

Great grandchildren,

Are going to be able to enjoy the bounty that we have,

We,

You know,

I think people are waking up to that as I have woken up to that.

Late,

Too late,

Done too little,

But anyway,

Eventually getting there.

So if they want to,

They need to buy the products that come from that land.

And that shouldn't be any more expensive than land.

They should have a choice between conventionally grown beef and regen beef and knowing that you,

You know,

There may not be that much difference even in the product,

But you know,

If you buy that,

You are encouraging more farmers to adopt the regen technique and heal,

Well to the start,

Inglebar,

Then maybe New South Wales,

Then maybe Australia,

Then maybe Asia and you know,

Just,

Anyway,

We know it's coming up everywhere.

We know that it's,

You know,

Creeping out in pockets all over the world.

Do you think there's resistance?

If you,

Where do you see,

If you do,

Where do you see resistance to,

To,

To,

I think,

Oh,

I think that's very warranted resistance.

I think it's scary to take on something new.

It's always scary to reinvent,

Reinvent yourself,

Reinvent the wheel,

Reinvent what you've become very comfortable doing,

What's worked for you for a long time.

I think,

You know,

Like was very apparent in Charlie's book,

A lot of people had come,

You know,

Been thrown against the wall before they actually made serious changes with the way they did things.

And that's,

You know,

You never wish that upon anybody,

But it's amazing how that has,

And for us,

It was the fires.

For me,

It was the fires too.

Catalyst?

Yeah.

It was a combination of the fires,

The fury of the fires.

You just,

Something was really out of step that,

That the ferocity of those fires everywhere,

It was just other nature's screaming at us,

Halt,

Halt,

Do something differently.

This is not working.

So that was a big wake up call.

And it was really after that,

That I then read the call of the re-war,

Then went,

Right,

Okay,

This is it.

And whatever I can do to bring this to the public and a little bit,

You know,

Just open the space just a little bit more,

Whatever I could do to open that space just a little bit more,

I jumped right in and started.

Is there,

Are you seeing or hearing or feeling resistance at a larger scale from industry,

From corporations,

From,

You know,

Other quarters?

No,

I'm not,

I'm feeling enormous interest,

Actually,

Great interest,

But also,

I mean,

Not everybody can,

Not everybody has the opportunity to contribute within the space.

So and I think we're a bit of a way away from getting people,

From being able to include the public,

Include the consumer,

Because we haven't got a Land to Market branding loudly enough out there.

Give that a plug.

Or whatever that one is.

Yes,

So we're having a Land to Market,

Which is a part of the Savory Institute's way of identifying a regen farmer by measuring what they are doing on their land.

So have they got,

Are they building biodiversity?

Are they building water capacity?

Are they building soil health?

And if they are on that trajectory,

They get a Land to Market verification.

There is no certification,

Don't have to do it a certain way.

But if your land,

Your soil is building,

Your humus is building,

You know that you're drawing more carbon down,

You are a healer,

Not a,

Not a raper.

You are putting back.

And so if,

As a consumer,

You want to encourage more people to go that way,

More people to land regeneratively,

To farm regeneratively,

More land to heal itself,

Then probably should think about buying the products that have come off that regenerated land and encourage more people to take those risks and to change their headspace so that,

I mean,

It so clearly is the right direction.

Well,

Can I,

I'm just looking at the time and before we finish up,

Rachel,

I'd just like to verify something.

The beauty of your property here,

Because we're sitting here,

Again,

We're going back to where we started,

But this beautiful dam,

Slash lake,

Meandering up the gully,

The cattle have found their way to up the end there,

There's a few black cattle.

There's an electric fence up there,

So they haven't been moved into their next section yet.

That should be happening pretty soon,

I would think.

But this is,

This is amazing.

It's a beautiful location.

You are,

You know,

You're the steward of this landscape.

And I,

For one,

Am really excited for you and also relieved that it's in the hands of such a capable person.

And I just want to say what an honour and a joy it's been to have the chat today.

And I know that you were doubtful of the appropriateness of you being included on this,

But this is absolutely front and centre,

Relevant to our listeners and you.

Well,

I hope I'm just an example of just another ordinary person who's,

And I certainly can't take credit for it,

Mick Green and Darren Newberry,

Who are on,

You know,

Who are doing it.

I'm with my enormous enthusiasm,

But my effort is really,

I suppose,

Doing the documentary and actually getting the word out there and letting people know that there is another way.

And there are a lot of people out there who are doing it another way and having a very rich,

Very exciting life doing it that way.

And so that was,

That's my contribution really.

I can't really take enormous credit for what Mick is doing out there,

Except that he has my absolute enthusiasm and encouragement to take it,

To get as much biodiversity,

As much water holding capacity,

As much wildlife,

You know,

Bring it back to its optimum health,

I suppose,

Before we started trampling all over it in our clumsy way.

Well,

I just want to say what,

I'm really glad you're on the team.

Thanks Charlie.

Because this is cool.

Well,

I love being on the team and thanks for having me.

That's a pleasure.

Let's continue on our merry way.

And not that we're on a team that's looking to win a war,

We're just looking to make a big difference,

Yeah?

Huge difference.

Huge,

Slowly,

Slowly,

Catchy monkey.

Slowly,

Slowly.

And there's some such bright people in this space that are just,

I'm so,

Feel so blessed to have come across them.

And good people.

Yeah.

Talking about good people,

Anyone who's listening out there,

Don't forget to,

You know,

If you've been inspired by this show and what Rachel's doing,

We'll have show notes that people can sort of reference the things we've touched on along the way during the last little while.

And also don't be shy to flick this episode or any other episode to anyone you think might find it interesting.

As I say to people,

Hands up if you eat food and everyone puts their hand up.

It's like,

Good,

Well,

That's a good start,

You know?

So maybe flick this to anyone who eats food.

Well,

That will get you a few.

A few.

Whatever.

I don't know.

I feel very ill qualified to be talking about it,

As you know,

Very ill qualified,

But I'll get there.

I'll get there.

Hopefully I will be in a better position next time to talk about it with much greater authority.

But I'm really enjoying the journey.

And it's very exciting to get to my age and suddenly have this huge world just open up for you and for you to be this excited about.

I wasn't expecting that.

No.

And,

You know,

Look,

Thank you for sharing your regenerative journey.

And it's not over.

That's the cool thing.

You know,

Maybe it's.

.

.

I remember the time when I was degenerate.

I'm now degenerate.

There you go.

You are on a new orbit.

Off I go.

Thank you,

Rachel.

That was really fun.

Thank you for having us.

Thank you.

It's wonderful.

Very impressive.

Did you go for a swim?

No.

Goodbye.

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