Introducing Dr Richard W. Sears (Podcast Season 2, Ep 1)

Season 2, Episode 1 - We are honored to invite Dr. Richard W. Sears to join us for Season 2 of the Mindfulness Off the Cushion podcast. Dr. Sears, PsyD, PhD, MBA, ABPP, DMin, is a board-certified clinical psychologist, author, speaker, and consultant. In addition, Dr. Sears is a sixth-degree black belt in To-Shin Do/Ninjitsu and a Zen master. We hope you enjoy our interviews with Dr. Sears and are able to learn more skillful ways to practice mindfulness in your daily dance with suffering.

Transcript

Welcome to season two of Mindfulness Off The Cushion.

If you're familiar with the challenges of living mindfully and are looking for help in your daily dance with suffering,

Our goal is to be a resource for you.

Once again,

We're brought to you by the Austin Mindfulness Center.

So Claudio,

Welcome to season two.

How you doing,

Man?

Doing great.

So excited to be here.

My goodness,

Season two already?

Yeah,

It's been a good time.

We've had an eventful off season,

If you will.

We originally had anticipated getting all of those essential attitude episodes recorded and published like right there during the holiday season.

But alas,

It took us until mid February to complete that commitment.

That's okay,

Lance.

Don't be so hard on yourself.

It's all right,

Buddy.

So practice acceptance,

Letting go,

Things like that.

Non-striving.

All those essential attitudes.

Right.

Yeah,

Should we revisit those?

No,

I'm just kidding.

We're not gonna do that.

So let's talk about season two.

We have not yet shared with our listeners who we are going to have.

We have mentioned that he will be joining us for the entirety of season two.

But I mean,

Who the heck is this guy?

I know he's like the mystery man.

Yeah.

Right?

You go with his name first.

Well,

I'll give you the first part of his name.

It's Doctor.

Doctor,

So he's a doc.

My goodness.

Yeah.

What we'll do,

We're not gonna tell you a ton about him right now because we do essentially start the episode or the season giving him a chance to sort of tell us his origin story.

But yes,

Doctor Richard W.

Sears.

So most likely if you've read about mindfulness or potentially if you're a clinician yourself.

Yeah.

You may have heard of his name,

Right?

I mean,

He may not be like the top 10 in the mindfulness world,

But the guy is a bit of a guru.

Wouldn't you say?

Absolutely.

I think that if you have a background in mindfulness through its clinical applications,

Doctor Richard Sears has published 14 books now.

Yeah.

Very much around mindfulness-based cognitive therapy,

Acceptance and commitment therapy,

And other practices and modalities in mindfulness intersecting with psychotherapy.

So he's legit.

He is,

I'll say this,

Apart from his clinical background,

Which is highly impressive in publishing 14 books,

I'm enjoying sitting with him and just getting his vibe.

Right.

He's a person that really does embody mindfulness,

But you could see that it's something that's been lifelong practice with him.

And I am really appreciating understanding his story and how he uses it to help people.

Yeah.

Yeah,

He has a great,

Very concise way of describing things.

So I do believe that it will help our listeners if potentially anyone is struggling with specific clarity issues around what mindfulness is or isn't,

Or going back to the vision or mission of this podcast,

These pragmatic how to apply mindfulness throughout our daily walk,

Right?

And I think that's really important to always come back to that mission,

That vision of the Austin Mindfulness Center.

As a psychotherapy business in Austin,

Texas,

We want to be able to provide concise,

Helpful,

Practical information to everyday folks that are dealing with stress and anxiety and depression and you name it.

So this is going to be really rich.

So before we jump in,

Claudia,

I'm going to put you on the spot.

We have already interviewed him.

Tell me one thing that you took from that interview with Dr.

Sears.

I'll say something that he kind of said off the cuff.

It really resonated with me.

I think it kind of resonates because stoicism is something that I have learned about when I was learning philosophy through the Jesuits.

And it's the following quote,

The work is never done and then you die.

Wow.

Yeah.

So on one hand,

You can look at that and be kind of bummed out by it,

Right?

But on the other hand,

Think it resonates with the truth about what we are as human beings in this life.

That there's a lot of work to do.

And even though at times we can get caught up in,

I don't know,

In all the minutia and all the drama of the work,

We always have to remember that,

Hey,

This is a temporary existence.

Let's make the best out of it.

Yeah,

I love that.

How about you?

So it's interesting because this is highly related to the work.

We think about what work is it that he's speaking about with regard to the work never being done.

And it's not just the external activities,

Right?

But the work that we're doing on ourselves.

But all of these things that we have to do,

My favorite quote from this interview,

He said,

The feeling of being busy only comes when you're thinking about what you're not doing.

I think the key words there,

Right?

Obviously feeling,

Busy is a feeling,

And it only comes when you're thinking about what you're not doing,

Right?

So he's definitely pulling in some like active key words that are in sort of the mindfulness lexicon,

Right?

That's beautiful.

That really,

When he said that,

It really stuck with me.

And I've actually gone ahead and put that to the test.

So whenever I notice myself feeling busy,

I simply bring awareness to my thinking mind.

And it's so true.

I only feel that busyness when I am thinking about all the things that I'm not doing.

So that's profound.

It is profound for sure.

That's the right word there.

It's so simple too.

Yeah.

It's simple and profound.

I love that.

Yeah.

All right,

Well,

Let's go ahead and jump in.

I'm really excited for our listeners to benefit from the wisdom that Dr.

Richard Sears brings to mindfulness off the cushion.

Thank you so much,

Dr.

Sears,

For joining us today.

We're delighted to have you as our very first special guest and essentially our special guest for the entirety of season two.

We're gonna explore with a slightly different format this season.

So again,

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

We really look forward to learning more about you personally,

Professionally,

As well as going deeper into your own perspectives on mindfulness and hopefully helping our listeners to better understand how they can practice mindfulness off the cushion.

Absolutely.

Thanks for having me.

So let's get started by touching on your academic achievements.

You have quite a few letters after your name.

So for those of our listeners who do not know you,

Perhaps you could tell us a bit about your academic background.

Yeah,

Sure.

You know,

I've just always loved learning.

And at some point I thought I had to have formal education to get all this knowledge.

And of course it's all out there,

But I have a doctorate in clinical psychology.

So I'm a clinical psychologist for a profession.

And you know,

I just didn't find a good way to teach mindfulness and the other things I wanted to do for a living.

So I ended up going back to academia to be officially recognized.

While I was in my academic training,

I had an opportunity to get an assistantship in the College of Business.

And it turned out that that actually paid for my doctoral classes as well.

But I had to get an MBA while I was doing that.

So I ended up getting a master's in business as well.

And it was pretty interesting to see the business side of things,

The practical application sides of things and the human interaction kinds of things.

And noticing how both professions seem to be missing just a little bit.

You know,

A lot of psychologists weren't big on business and understanding systems.

And people in the business world would take a psychology idea,

But not quite fully get it right.

So it was just kind of interesting to see their take on the research.

Along the way,

I was part of a university that offered a PhD in Buddhist studies.

So I'd been studying that for a while with my teacher and did some things for that.

And the last four letters,

ABPP is American Board of Professional Psychology.

It just means I'm board certified.

That's pretty amazing,

Dr.

Sears.

It sounds like you've definitely spent a lot of time and a lot of resources into pursuing pretty in depth education.

I want to ask you like,

Personally,

Why was this important to you?

It was really important to me because before that,

I was trying to earn a living running a martial arts school and teaching meditation and mindfulness.

And I would literally have people come into my school,

Pay me for a private lesson,

But then end up just sitting there and telling me about their life problems and their issues with their relationships.

And I wasn't equipped to handle that.

And at the time,

I didn't know enough how to actually turn that into a business.

And I wanted to know how can I help more people?

How can I get involved in the research?

So that's what got me involved.

And I just loved it.

I loved being able to look at the newest research on the brain and how that affected things and take my background and see how that could be applied as well into the theories.

And in fact,

Right after I graduated,

My first job was a full time professor of clinical psychology.

So I got to jump right in and teach other people to become psychologists,

Which actually is what probably deepened my education the most is trying to really dive into this stuff and teach it to others.

And research wise,

It was just a lucky time for me because that's right when the research ball started getting rolling with mindfulness.

So to have a depth of practice,

And then to have the ability to run some research projects and look at the science,

It was just an exciting time.

And just that ability to show up and talk to people and ask questions.

I got involved in some pretty interesting research programs as actually part of the first team to do brain scans with kids and adolescents using mindfulness intervention,

Mindfulness based cognitive therapy for children was the protocol.

And pretty fascinating to see how,

This is literally not just a made up thing.

We could literally see changes in the brain from before and after and working with these kids and those changes tended to stay there.

Also got involved with the veterans administration and did some research in that hospital setting and working with veterans with PTSD using mindfulness based cognitive therapy.

So pretty exciting things I've been able to do.

As I listened to you,

You have this,

I wanna say intellectual curiosity that was fed by all this work in clinical and research and so forth,

Coupled with also this deep desire to help people.

Yeah,

Yeah.

And I had to realize too,

Not just helping people to feel better about myself,

But coming from a place of really,

Really getting this.

Unfortunately,

There is something that happens when we feel like we're missing something,

We wanna teach it to everybody else so that we can feel more secure about ourselves.

And one of my Zen teachers,

Teachers would say,

Well,

First wake up and then help everybody else,

Really to be able to see this for yourself and experience it for yourself and then share it,

And then you'll do it for the right motivations.

So now Richard,

In addition to your academic achievements and your commitment to the clinical work that you do with your clients,

You're also quite the prolific author.

Why is it important to you to write these books?

I think you're up to 14 now,

And perhaps you could mention a few of those books for our listeners.

Yeah,

Well,

Honestly,

It started when I was in the academic world teaching,

It's sort of expected to have some publications and things,

But more than that,

I've just always loved books since I was a kid.

That's one of the things that got me involved in all of this in the first place.

And obviously books are not enough,

But they can be a way to sort of move people in the right direction,

Sort of get them inspired,

Get them started on a path.

So since those are always so influential to me and the teachers that I worked with,

I still read their books again and again and get deeper meaning out of it.

I felt like I just wanted to share some of that with other people.

Also because I just saw so many misunderstandings out there and not that I have all the answers,

But just to offer more points of view and maybe more science,

More experience and more information from different traditions.

In fact,

The latest book that just came out is called Myths of Mindfulness.

So I just tried to gather between surveying people and just all the talks that I give.

What are the common misunderstandings?

What do people just not really get?

And look at the truth that may be part of that as well as the science underneath it and what's really going on with that.

Before that,

I think the most recent one was Act with Anxiety,

Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.

And I really love Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.

I know we'll talk about that in a future podcast,

But it sort of takes mindfulness and then adds in the rest of what we know about the human condition and basically ask you,

What do you wanna do with your life?

Now you're fully present in the moment and how do you wanna live this life?

So that's exciting.

Probably my favorite book is just called Mindfulness,

Living Through Challenges and Enriching Your Life in This Moment.

And that's one of the few I got to write.

It was not about using academic resources for every single thing I said,

But put a lot more stories in there.

Still,

The scientific understanding of mindfulness and what it's all about,

But a lot more stories in there that I think makes it easier to digest and gives more examples of what we're talking about of using these principles in your life.

That sounds pretty amazing.

I can't imagine finishing writing one book,

Let alone 14.

I'm sure it takes a lot of discipline,

A lot of focus.

I know Lance,

How many of those books do you have?

Lance is like your number one customer.

Just FYI,

Okay?

Guilty,

Guilty.

I've only got seven or eight of them.

Okay,

All right,

All right.

And I know that some of the other therapists kind of use one of your books as kind of a go-to as far as NBCT.

We know that the Austin Mindfulness Center is definitely using some of those books day to day,

Which I think that's beautiful.

And that's the purpose.

Speaking of purpose,

What was your path into all this?

What was your path into mindfulness?

We all have an origin story.

And was it your mindfulness background that informed your clinical practice,

Or was it the other way around?

Yeah,

Before the mindfulness practice,

Before the clinical work,

Actually goes back to when I was a teenager and I really wanted to be a ninja.

Didn't we all?

Yeah,

Yeah,

And seeing those martial arts movies and thought,

How cool is that?

And I used to be picked on when I was a kid and I came across these books by a man named Stephen K.

Hayes and I was just blown away.

Here's this martial tradition.

And he talked about also this spiritual or the emotional or the psychological side of things,

Of using the mind,

Of using meditation.

You define warrior as someone who engages the world and so wakes up to the truth of reality,

Whatever you wanna call that,

By engaging with it,

Not by withdrawing.

That was another option.

You could withdraw from the world,

Do a practice in a special place,

But the warrior way was to engage and work through.

And I just found that fascinating.

So I got involved in this as this teenager.

And this is not at all,

Of course,

What you see in the Ninja Turtle movies.

There really is a history to this.

And in fact,

I usually don't even use the word ninja because people just don't believe me or they think I'm exaggerating or making this up,

But we can literally trace this tradition back 800 years,

Name by name.

In fact,

This legend of the ninja being invisible,

What that really means is you set up your life in such a way that conflict doesn't even arise if possible.

Or if you have to deal with something,

You try to set up the causes and conditions for things to change,

Instead of making a big show of force.

This originated in the mountains of Japan and these small families in the mountains,

And they weren't about to just attack a giant horde of samurai warriors.

So they had to find subtle ways of surviving by either not being noticed or using political or other types of influence to shift things.

Because as you all know,

When you make a big show of force,

You start screaming your opinions,

Even if you're 100% correct,

It's just gonna create defensiveness,

It's gonna make people more resistant to you.

So how do we engage in a way to produce helpful change?

So obviously to do all of that,

It wasn't just about punching and kicking,

It was really about working with the mind.

So that's what got me involved originally in these meditative traditions and mindfulness being one of those types of meditation,

Where it's very important to be fully present in the moment when you need to be.

Just as an example,

When I'm training with my friends in the dojo,

If my mind's jumping off into the future too much,

Oh boy,

I'm gonna do this really cool technique and won't that be great,

And everybody's gonna love me and think how awesome I am,

Boom,

Boom,

I'm just gonna be it.

And then if I get stuck in the past,

I can't believe I let that happen,

That's ridiculous,

I just have to be better,

Paying attention.

It's just gotta be fully in the moment and noticing what's happening.

And in fact,

When you drop all that mental chatter,

It's amazing what you can see.

And I say this not to brag,

But just because I've been doing this so long,

I can see sometimes several seconds before somebody attacks what's about to happen,

Because this fist doesn't fly out of nowhere,

It's attached to an arm,

Attached to a shoulder,

Attached to a body,

Attached to,

All these very subtle movements you can catch what's happening.

Sometimes you can shut it down before it starts or you can just keep putting yourself in a position where they can't touch you.

And to me,

That there were so many symbolic pieces in all of this training,

How can I apply that to my life and into my relationships?

And so that's what got me fascinated.

And then as I said,

Becoming a teacher,

Which helped me learn more of this stuff myself,

People ended up telling me more about their life problems and mental health history.

So that drove me to have a more formal way of working with the mind,

Which in this society is mental health professional,

And in my case,

Psychologist.

Man,

Did you ever watch a martial arts movie or an exposé season?

Of course.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That was big for me.

Bruce Lee was very inspirational for me.

I was Chuck Norris.

I was the Chuck Norris guy.

Okay,

A student.

A student of Mr.

Lee right there.

Yeah,

Now I watched them all.

I watched them all.

I watched them all.

And yeah,

In fact,

Bruce Lee was said to encourage all his students to listen to Alan Watts,

Who talked about Zen and Eastern philosophy.

And that was another person that had a lot of influence on me,

Because Alan Watts had a Western background.

He was from England,

Moved to California,

But studied Zen.

And so he was one of my inspirations.

And how do we take this profound stuff and make it useful,

Practical,

Understandable,

Respect the cultural pieces,

But get the essence that goes beyond culture and specific techniques.

And I always found that fascinating.

So I understand at one point,

In fact,

In your mindfulness book,

You called it your 15 minutes of fame.

You had the opportunity to serve as the bodyguard for the Dalai Lama.

Is that a real story?

It is.

I got really lucky with that.

And in fact,

I owe it to my martial arts teacher.

Back in the 80s,

There was a brief time when the Chinese government,

They'd invaded Tibet.

They opened it up to tourists in the late 80s.

And somehow my teacher was able to go there and see what was happening.

So on his way out,

He stopped in Dharamsala where the Dalai Lama lives.

And back then it was a little bit easier to get an audience with him.

And he just starts talking with them.

In fact,

My teacher was very impressed at the kinds of details he was asking,

Like how did the uniforms fit the military officers?

Because that would tell him how well equipped they were.

And so all these detail kinds of things.

But at the end of the conversation,

He just casually said,

Where are you from?

And this was before the Dalai Lama was traveling the world.

So he goes,

I'm from the US.

Oh,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah,

We're in the US.

Oh,

Small place we call the Midwest.

We're in the Midwest.

He goes,

Oh,

A place called Germantown,

Ohio.

And he goes,

Oh,

My older brother lives in Bloomington,

Indiana.

You should look him up sometime.

And turns out his older brother was a professor at Indiana University.

So one of the first times he came to the US,

The US wouldn't recognize him as a dignitary.

So he didn't really have any kind of Secret Service protection.

And somebody recognized my teacher.

Hey,

You're that ninja that wrote all those books.

You should be up here protecting the Dalai Lama.

So he started doing that on a regular basis.

So for just a couple of weekends,

I got to tag along.

And it's just wonderful.

I had such a presence to him.

And he made you feel like you were the only person in the world when you were talking to him.

And yet,

We've got 10,

000 people in this auditorium.

So I'd have to kind of be the bad guy and just kind of subtly disrupt somebody's balance.

It wouldn't look good for the Nobel Peace Prize winner to have somebody that is punching people out.

So I just kind of very subtly tipped their balance.

So they had to take a couple steps back and we kind of moved forward.

And of course,

He had a great sense of humor.

There was a time we were trying to fight through this really thick crowd and finally got in this elevator.

The door closed.

There's that moment of peace and silence.

And I'm on one side,

A friend of mine's on the other side of the Dalai Lama.

And he looks up at my friend and makes a fist because he knew we were a ninja and punches him in the jaw,

Lightly.

My friend just kind of goes,

And he just giggled like a child.

So it was just wonderful to be able to spend that time with him.

That's great.

It sounds like he definitely embodied that playfulness of mindfulness.

Well,

Not just mindfulness,

But the playfulness of living a very serious spiritual life.

Yeah,

And when you think about where he came from,

I mean,

1 million Tibetans were killed and he was driven into exile and all the awful things to endure,

Yet he can find that place.

He said he just hoped he would never lose his compassion for people that had done those kinds of things.

And yet,

As you said,

Such a playfulness and humility and being fully in the moment and to teach compassion on and on and on and sending that message out.

Interestingly though,

My ninja teacher,

Stephen Hayes,

Asked him once,

He said,

You know,

You talk so much about compassion.

That's wonderful,

Of course,

But the other side of the teachings is wisdom or the truth.

Why do you never talk about that side?

Dalai Lama said,

Oh,

Everyone loves compassion.

Everybody loves to hear about compassion.

Not everybody likes to hear the truth.

I thought that was great.

That's wonderful.

Thank you for sharing that.

So let's circle back to mindfulness,

If you don't mind,

Richard.

I'd love to learn a little bit about how your own practice of mindfulness has shaped your professional career,

Your personal life.

I know it's not just a series of books for you and I understand from what you're telling us that it's not just something you do a little bit in the morning and maybe a little bit in the afternoon.

Tell us how it's really sort of shaped who you are today.

Yeah,

And you know,

It's kind of hard to think about not having that.

So it's an interesting question.

I think though,

When I reflect back,

When I was younger,

I was actually a very anxious person,

Concerned about things,

Thinking about the future and thinking I should have done things in the past differently.

And so this really helped me to just refocus on the moment.

And this may be a good thing for a future podcast where we can get into the way we relate to our emotions so often creates cyclical battles,

Anxious about our anxiety,

Stressed about our stress,

Depressed about our depression.

So to learn to relate differently to what's happening and to sort of flow more with it.

Now,

Interestingly,

Even in the biggest crisis,

It's important to be mindful,

Right?

Some people think mindfulness means I'm just gonna be relaxed and chilled out and everything's gonna be happy.

But now if I'm in the middle of a crisis,

That's the most important time to be mindful,

Right?

If I rush into an emergency room and there's blood spurting everywhere,

I don't want my doctor to say,

Oh my gosh,

That's freaking me out.

I'm gonna close my eyes and I'm just gonna calm down and I'll be with you in a few minutes.

We want them to be fully present in the moment even if they do be a little anxious or have some racing thoughts.

And so that's really helped me.

And through that and martial arts and my Zen training as well that I got involved in,

There's an ability to be more centered,

To be more present that no matter what may be happening,

I'm just in this moment right now.

And what's the most effective way to deal with that?

Now,

I do like the title of this podcast,

Being mindfulness off the cushion.

And so I have to be careful how I word this.

There is a time for the cushion.

There is a time where it's really important to get that practice in there.

Just like physical exercise,

If you never exercise,

How can you expect to be in good physical shape?

But just like exercise,

The whole point of it is to bring it into your life.

You wanna exercise so that you can take walks with your family,

Go on hikes,

Live longer,

Et cetera.

Some people though end up making the gym their life.

That's all they do.

They live in the gym and they live for the gym and yeah,

That's okay.

That's what they choose.

And likewise,

And again,

I hesitate to say this because for beginners,

It might mean,

Oh,

I never have to practice,

But there comes a point where you don't wanna make your practice different from your life.

And this really hit me once when I was learning to be a Zen teacher,

My teacher would sit in the room with me.

And remember this guy came in and said,

Now that I've been on this retreat,

I'm really feeling good and I'm feeling present in the moment and this is awesome.

And I've been so busy with work in the last few years,

I stopped practicing.

And so I'm worried that after I leave this retreat,

I'm gonna go back to this state where I never practice again.

And my teacher looked him in the eye and said,

Why are you making practice different from this moment?

May not make a lot of sense to some people,

But that was a profound moment for me,

Right?

There's not the present moment when I'm practicing and then other present moments,

You know,

It's this present moment.

So you could say I'm practicing right now.

I don't feel any different right now as I'm talking to you than I do when I'm sitting in a formal practice.

Before I came here,

I was putting rivets on an airplane that I'm building in my barn.

And I was just as mindful to just be present,

Notice what's there.

Of course,

Mindfulness,

As you all know,

Doesn't mean you stop thinking and have a blank mind either,

But you don't get as lost in the thoughts or caught up in the thoughts or let the thoughts drive all of your choices.

And so if I do more formal practices,

I mean,

I do a lot of it because I teach a lot on these programs.

But one of the ones I do the most is that when I notice some anxiety,

Stress,

Strong thoughts,

I might just sit with it and say,

Okay,

There's something's happening here.

Not to get rid of it,

Not to think it away,

But just sit with it for a moment.

Typically,

It's just trying to give me a message.

Now,

It could be an old outdated message that doesn't matter right now,

But that's sort of moving into and noticing.

So in that sense,

You could say I don't formally practice or that I practice all the time,

Depending on your perspective.

And you mentioned in your book,

Mindfulness,

And I won't be able to quote you.

I don't have it in front of me at the moment,

But imagine this sloping hill with a deep pit at the bottom of the hill.

And then it's much easier.

I don't know,

You probably didn't say easier,

But important to notice the suffering,

Notice the body and the emotions and the feelings instead of waiting until you're down in the pit,

Right?

Can you maybe elaborate on that?

Yeah,

Yeah,

That's one of the big things that the research found.

Obviously,

Mindfulness can be helpful as an added tool to a lot of different things,

But one of the biggest things that can help with,

Especially the structured ones like mindfulness-based stress reduction,

Mindfulness-based cognitive therapy,

Is to catch the early signs of our stress rising,

Anxiety rising,

Depression rising,

Cravings for addiction,

Whatever it might be,

Catch it before it becomes a problem.

See,

One of the issues I think that happens a lot is people ignore their mental health.

They're taught you just gotta push forward,

You gotta work hard.

Maybe someday you'll get to retirement,

Whatever it is,

So meanwhile,

Push really hard,

Get that promotion,

And do it again the next day.

And slowly,

Slowly,

Sometimes not so slowly,

People are worn down,

They start to burn out,

And then finally,

When they're in a clinical depression or they're having panic attacks or they're really lost in addiction,

Then they seek help.

And certainly,

We can do some helpful things,

But much better to notice,

Wow,

My stress is a little higher today,

I better pay attention to that,

Or gee,

There's some tension in my shoulders right now.

Instead of getting angry that your shoulders are tense,

Recognize this is a sign,

Something's happening,

Probably I haven't been doing my exercises or I've been trying to do too much,

So maybe I have no choice,

I've gotta finish this important work project,

But later I'm gonna do some stretching,

I'm gonna try to take some breaths,

I'm gonna reconnect with what really matters to me.

And so that's,

As you're saying,

Much easier to pull up from a dip in your mood than after you've really gone down into this downward spiral because that's one of the bad things that can happen.

You feel depressed,

So you stop doing things,

You stop doing things,

So you feel more depressed,

Which makes you feel more sad,

Which wakes up more negative thoughts,

Which makes you more depressed,

Which makes you feel less like doing things in this downward spiral.

So you can catch it when it just starts a little bit easier.

And since mindfulness is paying attention,

It's a good way to pull back up out of that.

That's really beautiful,

Dr.

Sears.

What I hear from you is that everyday people out there can use mindfulness as a tool or moment to moment awareness as an approach for prevention,

Right?

So to become aware when we are getting anxious versus being caught up in the anxiety itself,

Or to become aware when there is a little bit of tension in the body versus when the body is completely exhausted and tense.

So using mindfulness as a preventative tool to care for our mind,

Body,

Spirit,

Whatever.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And some people think mindfulness means I'm gonna feel great.

So,

Okay,

I don't like how I'm feeling,

I'm gonna just try to feel great.

And now all you're doing is you're adding struggle on top of what's there.

So since mindfulness is really awareness,

You might not like what you find.

Some people are like,

La,

La,

La,

I'm gonna pretend this isn't really happening.

And there are sometimes ignorance is bliss,

Right?

If you look at the news,

You just,

It's gonna make you depressed,

Right?

But it's not a good life strategy to just dip your head in the sand and pretend something's not gonna happen.

If you wanna deal with it most effectively,

It's important to acknowledge whether or not I want this to be happening,

This is what's happening now,

And what do I wanna do in this moment if there's anything to be done.

And there's also,

And you mentioned this also in your book,

This idea of if we wait until our anxiety or our stress or our depression really becomes a serious issue,

Potentially learning mindfulness or trying to address those concerns at that time can be somewhat like putting up a tent in a hurricane,

Right?

So I think,

We'll touch on this in later episodes during this season,

But there is a time,

Wouldn't you agree,

For therapy,

And when should or could someone identify,

I'm gonna try to,

I'm just gonna buy a mindfulness book or download an app and try to learn it on my own,

And when might they want to instead seek help and look for someone to sort of guide them through that process?

Yeah,

That's a great question.

There's not a clear cut answer to that.

My bias would be if in doubt,

See a therapist,

Because we're great people.

And there's such a stigma with mental health.

I'd like to think that that's changing.

And I think certain areas or maybe younger generation that's changing,

But there was a time where you're just completely crazy if you go see a mental health professional versus seeing a trainer at the gym doesn't mean you're broken.

It might,

If you really have some damage,

You might want to work with a trainer,

But also they just help you become the best you can be.

But that said,

I think your question's an important one,

Because if you have a problem,

That would be like,

I have diabetes,

But I'm just gonna research it on my own.

Well,

It is good to research it on your own,

But it'd probably be a good idea to talk to somebody who works with diabetes every day,

Knows the science,

Knows what the options are,

And you can make a more informed decision.

Now that said,

To prevent diabetes,

It's good to eat healthy.

So to prevent mental health issues,

It might be good to add mindfulness as one of the things that can kind of help you notice and catch things before they become too serious.

The cutoff is usually are the things you're dealing with affecting your functioning?

In other words,

Is it interfering with your life?

So we all worry about things,

We all have stress,

We all feel sad some days,

But if you get so sad that it's tough to even get out of bed and do anything,

That's a marker that that's maybe falling into a clinical depression.

If you're having panic attacks where you sort of freeze up and you can barely speak,

And now you don't even want to go to work,

You need to do some things for your kids,

But you're unable to do that,

That's a definite sign that seeking professional help would be a good idea.

This podcast is sponsored by the Austin Mindfulness Center,

The premier mental health counseling center in Texas for mindfulness-based therapy,

Education,

And coaching.

If you're an individual or couple struggling with stress,

Anxiety,

Depression,

Relationship issues,

Or you're just looking to better equip yourself to gracefully navigate these turbulent times,

You can visit us online at austinmindfulness.

Org and request an appointment today.

Now let's get back to our podcast.

I think this is an important time right now to go to one important question,

Which hasn't been asked yet,

And we've been talking a lot about it,

Right?

We've been using this word mindfulness quite a bit,

And around that word mindfulness,

We've been using a lot of being present and balance and awareness,

Attention,

Focus.

Like how do you define mindfulness?

What is mindfulness to you or what is its approach with your students?

Yeah,

Great question,

Because this word is being tossed around so much.

Now,

Obviously you both know exactly what you're doing because you practice it,

But I keep seeing people tag the word mindfulness here and put mindfulness on that,

And this is mindful.

And sometimes it's just not mindfulness.

It might be good stuff.

It's just not mindfulness.

So first of all,

I think it's important to distinguish there's a difference between mindfulness and meditation.

Sometimes they're overlapping,

But technically the word meditation is a very broad term,

Meaning lots of different ways of working with the mind.

And so there are lots and lots of different kinds of meditation.

Sometimes it's about sort of getting into this absorption state.

Sometimes it's about changing your consciousness.

Sometimes it's about visualizing something.

But mindfulness is a very specific type of meditation about paying attention in the present moment.

And a lot can be sometimes added onto this that's not necessary,

But simply speaking,

It's just paying attention.

That's all it is.

And here's one of those things where the more we talk about it,

The more confusing it sounds,

Because it's really not about words.

It's something we just all do already.

I mean,

We're all born with the ability to be mindful.

You look at a little kid that wants to look for four-leaf clovers or look at rocks.

You can just be fascinated by all the colors and sparkles of a rock when you're a kid,

But later on your land is just a rock and they all look the same and you don't really notice that.

And then we get more and more lost in our minds.

So really just paying attention in the present moment is all it is.

In fact,

Just paying attention is a good definition all by itself,

Because you can only pay attention in the present moment and all the other things you'll notice.

And that said,

I do like John Kabat-Zinn's definition of mindfulness.

I just find it a useful thing because it covers a lot of different areas so that people don't just make assumptions about what paying attention means.

And he has some variations on this,

But basically the awareness that emerges through paying attention in a special way,

On purpose,

In the present moment,

And non-judgmentally to the unfolding of experience from moment to moment.

So let's unpack that.

The first part is the awareness that emerges.

So this is sort of getting out of waking up quality of mindfulness,

Because we tend to go in such an autopilot mode where we're barely even aware of what we're doing.

We do things so automatically that the day just flies by,

You don't even notice what's happening.

In fact,

You may be listening to this podcast and suddenly you're thinking about all the different things you gotta do at work and how much longer is this and what happened yesterday.

And,

Oh,

Wait,

I'm listening to a podcast right now.

There's this moment when you kind of wake up right into the moment of what's happening.

And the way you do that is through paying attention.

So that is one of the things that we're doing.

We're exercising our attentional capacity.

So as your mind goes off,

You bring it back to where you want it to be.

Your mind wanders off,

You bring it back.

The more you do that,

The more you're actually exercising the attentional channels of your brain.

And in fact,

Just like with physical exercise,

The more you use these different brain circuits and abilities,

The more you strengthen those in the brain.

So you actually will develop stronger attention by practicing that.

And then in a special way,

Refers to sort of the attitude that gets fostered with mindfulness practice.

And this is one of those things that just kind of happens naturally,

You can't really force it.

But it involves a sense of curiosity,

Of interest,

Kind of being open to your experiences.

And it sounds strange to talk about it,

But instead of,

Ah,

I can't stand that there's tension in my neck,

It's sort of this attitude of,

Ah,

Hmm,

There's tension in my neck right now.

And I'm just kind of sit with that.

It doesn't have to be your enemy.

It's the way that it is,

Whether you want it to be or not.

And then that opens up more responsiveness.

And that's one of the goals,

By the way,

Of mindfulness practice,

Is to notice,

Have awareness of automatic pilot modes of thinking,

Reacting emotionally and behaving,

And just noticing those and deciding,

Is this really what I wanna do?

So making a conscious response versus an automatic reaction that might make things worse.

So having this attitude really of self-compassion,

And not fighting my own thoughts and feelings and even body sensations.

And the next part on purpose gets at the conscious intentional quality of mindfulness.

So this one's not like hypnosis or shifting your consciousness.

It's really asking yourself,

Am I doing what I'm doing right now on purpose?

Or did I just fly off into some automatic pilot mode?

Or am I thinking about work?

Well,

You can think about work if you want to,

If you're about to solve an amazing problem creatively,

That's great.

But if it's just the same old stuff spinning,

Are you really doing that on purpose?

Or is it just an old habit?

And is that taking you away from the people and the things going on right in front of you?

And if so,

Choose,

I'd rather put my attention here.

Now,

Sometimes you may decide,

Yeah,

I've really gotta prepare for this speech at work tomorrow.

So I'm gonna think about that right now.

That's fine,

There's no shoulds here.

It's just to pay attention and ask yourself,

Is this really what I wanna be doing right now?

Next part's in the present moment,

Right?

That's the only time you're ever gonna pay attention.

But we have this tendency in our minds to always be thinking about what's coming next,

What happened last,

Or another time,

Another place.

And so it's just asking myself,

Okay,

What's happening right here,

Right now?

Now,

Certainly you can,

As I said,

Plan for the future and think about the past right now if you're doing it consciously.

But this piece of it also is what can allow you,

As funny as it sounds,

To be more productive.

I find it fascinating that the feeling of being busy only comes when you're thinking about what you're not doing.

Let me say that again.

The feeling of being busy only comes when you're thinking about what you're not doing,

Right?

So right now,

You're thinking,

Oh boy,

After this,

I got another meeting,

And then my daughter's gonna come home from school,

And then I've gotta finish those reports,

And I've gotta cook dinner.

You're gonna be feeling very busy.

But the reality is it doesn't matter if you're doing nothing after this or 100 things.

In this moment,

You're just listening to my voice.

And then you'll be at the next meeting,

And then you'll be there with your family,

And then you'll be cooking dinner.

So this ability to just be in what you're doing,

And again,

We need to step back sometimes.

What's the most important thing?

What should I be doing next?

But more often being in what you're doing is the ability to,

You know,

It's a funny way to say it,

But you can be more productive if you're in the present moment,

Not because you're trying to be,

But you can just let go of all that extraneous stuff.

Next part's non-judgmentally,

Which gets a little confusing for people because it doesn't mean judgment is bad.

It's just that if you're constantly judging,

You're not in the present moment.

Right,

If you're in this moment thinking,

I wish I was somewhere else,

Or I wanna be doing this instead,

Or I can't believe this is really happening,

Then you're not fully in the moment.

But there are times,

You know,

You can make a judgment,

Hey,

There's a car coming at me,

I better step out of the way.

That's a good judgment.

So instead of the judgments defining your reality,

Just sort of lightly notice them.

They may be helpful,

They might just be old stuff,

But rather than everything you experience being filtered through these judgments,

They're just sort of informants that may or may not be helpful in any given moment.

And the last part reminds us that this is an active dynamic process,

So to the unfolding of experience moment to moment.

Now,

In reality,

There's just this moment,

Right?

Everything else is an idea.

But this reminds us that mindfulness is an active dynamic process.

There are some people who think,

Only if I'm sitting still can I be mindful,

But you can be mindful talking to your partner,

Eating dinner,

Walking down the street,

Driving your car.

You know,

You wanna be mindful when you're driving your car,

So it doesn't have to be a different special kind of state.

It's carrying it through all of our moments.

That is so incredibly beautiful and incredibly rich.

Thank you so much for sharing that with us.

I know we're going to run out of time today.

I have never heard that take on the definition of busy or busyness,

And I know many of us suffer from burnout.

I wonder if you would do us a favor and take us through an exercise.

We'll make this exercise available to our listeners as a bonus episode,

A guided meditation,

If you will.

Absolutely.

Specifically on that topic,

That would be tremendous.

Absolutely.

Dr.

Sears,

Thank you so much for sharing that definition of mindfulness.

I think that it is incredibly in depth.

And I thought of Jenga,

You know,

The little puzzles that you build that they stack on top of each other.

And it's a beautiful framework.

And I think that perhaps that's one of the reasons why the JKZ definition still has legs.

So thank you so much for that.

And that insight about you're only busy when you start thinking about all the things that you have to do.

When I heard Dr.

Sears say that,

I thought about that and I've put that to the test.

And it's true,

At least for me.

Yeah,

I know we get this idea that just work hard until the work's done.

But if you haven't figured this out yet,

The work is never done and then you die.

So we have to find a way to live,

You know,

Moment to moment,

As well as keep our responsibilities.

So yeah.

Thank you,

Sir.

We'll see you next time.

All right,

My pleasure.

Thanks for having me.

That was excellent.

That actually turned out far better than I even imagined.

I was trying to practice this whole non-striving thing,

Claudio,

How did I do?

You're getting better by the day.

So just don't give up,

Buddy.

Don't give up.

That engineering mind,

Little by little,

It's,

You're shedding it.

Yeah.

So I loved how we got to learn a little bit more about his ninja background.

And then when he shared with us that a warrior engages the world directly,

There was something that just stirred inside of me.

I practiced martial arts when I was younger.

Many of us did,

You know,

Different things when we were younger.

Martial arts was one of my big things.

And he shared with us that a ninja is attempting to be invisible in such a way that conflict doesn't actually even arise in the first place.

So I really enjoyed those little nuggets from Richard.

Absolutely.

It reminds me of a guided meditation that my mentor recorded years,

Years,

Years ago.

It's called the peaceful warrior.

And it's this image of a warrior,

But not the traditional warrior that we've come to recognize so much through media or through movies,

But it is warrior that embodies non-doing and that embodies being peaceful amidst the chaos that surrounds them.

And I think that Dr.

Sears really was pointing toward that right there and he did so beautifully.

So next time we get together with Dr.

Sears,

We're going to touch on his book,

Myths of Mindfulness,

Which is actually his most recently published work.

I know,

Claudio,

You've looked at a few of these myths and you as an instructor often over the last 12 years of your instructional history would typically start with covering myths at the begin,

Even if it's like a 30 minute or 60 minute workshop,

You'll touch on the myths,

Right?

Sure.

So one of the myths that really is popular,

One that I like to dispel in Dr.

Richard Sears does so beautifully is that myth of mindfulness is about having a clear,

Empty or blank mind.

That's really,

Really cool.

Yep.

One of the ones I want to ask him about is this idea that mindfulness requires nonjudgmental acceptance of things.

I mean,

How can that be a myth?

I thought that was in fact,

The whole purpose of mindfulness is to,

You know,

Practice nonjudgmental acceptance of things,

Right?

So.

That's going to be interesting right there,

You know,

And I can't wait to hear him.

Yeah.

My guess is he's going to bring it all back to sort of the weakness of the English language and it's all about how you're defining these words,

Right?

Splitting hairs.

Sure,

Sure.

Another cool myth that I hope that we get to discuss is that myth that I don't have time to be mindful,

Right?

In these busy,

Busy,

Busy times.

And I used to hear this from my students sometimes,

I don't have time.

Yeah.

Really?

Yeah.

Really?

Yep.

So that's a wonderful exploration,

This whole notion of time.

Yeah.

And also this whole notion of the practice,

Both formal and informal practice.

So that will be really,

Really interesting to explore that.

So just to sort of set the expectations with our listeners,

We're going to go through probably,

You know,

10 to 12 of these myths with Dr.

Sears.

And as we do,

We're not just going to mention the myths,

But we're also going to bring both reality,

As well as research into the mix.

And so we're going to give him an opportunity to debunk these myths as we go.

Very cool.

Looking forward to that.

See you next time.