At The Helm: Emotion Versus Logic In Relationships

What happens when one person in a relationship tends to lead with emotion while the other moves quickly toward logic, explanation, or problem-solving?
In this episode of At The Helm, Karelin and Jessie explore how these different processing styles can create connection, frustration, and plenty of missed signals—especially in neurodivergent relationships.
This is a warm, honest conversation about learning to recognize your own default style, becoming more curious about your partner’s perspective, and finding ways for emotion and logic to work together instead of competing.
This episode was originally recorded live here on Insight Timer, so you may hear references to audience questions, comments, donations, or upcoming live events.

Transcript

Before we get started, A quick note about this episode. This episode of At the Helm was recorded live on Insight Timer, Which means you may hear us reference comments or questions from the community, Upcoming live events, Or even donations and other things happening in the room as we talk. We really love the energy and spontaneity of recording these conversations live. And we're also figuring out the best way to translate that experience into a podcast that feels good to listen to afterwards. So if you hear something that feels a little more alive than polished, That's why. Thank you for your patience with us as we find the rhythm that works best for both spaces. We're so glad you're here. Let's get into it. At the helm with Jesse and Carolyn arriving. My name is Carolyn. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, And I do a lot of work here on Insight Timer. I'm Jesse, I'm a teacher and a coach. And we happen to also be married. And so we also both happen to be neurodivergent and struggle with a lot of the things that I think a lot of you also struggle with in your relationships. And so this is an opportunity for us to kind of share a little bit of our own experience with everybody, As well as we'll always kind of end with at least one skill, One thing that you can try to practice in your life. So today we're going to be talking about something that comes up in our relationship all the time, And I'm guessing in a lot of your relationships as well, Is what happens when one of us tends to leap with emotion and the other tends to leap with logic. And I want to say right at the beginning that we're not suggesting that there are people who just do emotion and just do logic, Even as I'm thinking about it. Very often when Jesse is feeling distressed, I kind of shift into that logic, Kind of fix it mode, Even though that's his typical kind of mode of operation. Is typically kind of more emotional. If he's feeling distressed, Then I want to fix it. You know, I don't want to see him in that distress. So we're not saying that you're either one or the other. We all have emotions. We all use logic. But what we're talking about is where we tend to go first, Especially when something's stressful or emotionally charged. One person may immediately start with, What happened? Why did this happen? What do we do next? And the other one of us might be thinking, Do you understand how I'm feeling? Do you see why I'm upset? Can you just be with me for a moment? And so neither of those are inherently wrong, But we can sort of miss each other in that. How do you typically kind of describe yourself? Because I think it's changed over the years, So I'd be kind of interested to hear how you would describe yourself. Um, Yeah, I would say I've changed greatly throughout my life. Um, I probably started as more of an emotional, Very sensitive kid. Uh, But the world, You know, Gradually kept telling me that that wasn't safe and that wasn't a good way to be, That wasn't acceptable. And, Uh, You know, I got into sports and football and the military joined the Navy. And so I became a lot more closed off to my emotions. Emotions. And I've always been a logical person at heart. So I became too far that way to the logic side and cut off the emotions. And now I've reopened those parts of myself that made them, You know, Reintegrated those So now I try to blend both as much as possible. Even as I'm old. Yeah, So and so I think that that also brings up a good point is that we can sort of shift and change over the years. Jesse and I have been together for About 12 years. About 12 years now. I knew it was over 10. And truly, I think both of us have sort of moved towards the middle of that a little bit more. And so one thing that I can see happen in relationships is that two people think that we're discussing the same thing, But we're actually having two different conversations. So one of us might be talking about the experience and the other might be talking about the problem. So imagine if I come to Jesse and I say, Oh gosh, I had this really difficult session today. I just feel like I didn't handle it very well. I didn't do a good job. " And Jesse might ask me immediately, Well, What might you do differently next time? Or, You know, How did you handle X, Y, Or Z in the moment? And objectively, That might feel like a very reasonable question, You know, Coming from my partner who wants to see me succeed. But what I really might've wanted was just, Ah, You know, It sounds like you had a hard day. Right. And so his response is kind of missing the point completely for me. But from his perspective, He is hearing, You told me that something was wrong and I'm helping you. I'm supporting you. Right. And I think that that's something that's really important to Jesse is that I feel supported, That he feels helpful. And my goodness, Does my husband love to solve a problem? Yes. And I am very logic brained and I think that if we examine the situation as an example, Carolyn doesn't start off saying, This is what I'm expecting and this is what I need. The ideal thing to do, And we all have to work on this, Is to come in and lead with exactly what you're looking for. I've had a hard session. I've had a hard day. Can you just hug me? Can you just listen to me for a while? Can you tell me it's going to be okay? I need that encouragement. I don't need you to fix things. And to her credit, Carolyn's gotten a lot better at that over the years of coming in and saying, She'll still lead sometimes with, I don't need you to fix this. I don't need any advice. I need comfort and emotional support. Check. Good. I love clear instructions. I want runway directors telling me to go which way. I can follow directions very well. Yes. And that's very true. And so this is where we can wind up feeling very misunderstood right so as the emotional processor in that moment I might feel like he doesn't care how I feel and he might feel like I'm trying to help you and we have definitely had those moments in the past where we're just missing each other right like as He's continuing to kind of help try to fix it or solve it I might even start hearing like oh you you did it wrong like that's why you're feeling that emotion It's like you failed or you did it wrong So I'm trying to help you fix it when really all he's trying to do is false support me. And so he might be kind of feeling like I'm just trying to help you. What is happening? Like, Why is the emotion kind of ramping up in this? And I can see from our gratitude hearts that maybe this is resonating with you guys. So I always like to mention that the gratitude hearts really tell us when we're on the right track, And I'm really seeing those pouring in. So I have a feeling that you guys feel this as well. I think it's a good point to remember as well that the trying to fix things comes from a place of love and caring. Like when my partner's in distress, My instant reaction is often what can I do to fix this as fast as possible so she's not feeling this way. But where I misinterpret sometimes is what she's looking for is not a solution, Not spice, But just work. Right. And so I'm curious for you guys. So when something's wrong, Do you usually want someone to help you solve it or someone to help you feel understood? Um, So you can just put like solve it or understood, Or, You know, Maybe it depends, Maybe it depends on the situation. So I would love to kind of hear that from you guys. I'm sort of interested to see what, You know, What might kind of predominate here. Um, Is that a word? Redominate. It is a worry. Isn't it? But maybe I'm just not using it right. Understood. Understood. I wondered if with this group in particular, You know, I think that just because you're here on Insight Timer tells me something about you, Right? Like you're thoughtful, You're wanting to be kind of insightful. Just hear me understood. It depends. It depends. Yeah. I mean, It says usually solve it. Solve it. Maybe 80-20, Ryan, Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, I think depends might actually be kind of an accurate answer. You know, I think there are many of us like myself who I would probably swing more towards, I just want to feel, You know, Supported and understood, And maybe even like a little reassured. Whereas I think Jesse probably would be more of, I don't know, What would your answer be? Maybe more of a depends? I mean, It's always, I think it's always depends. Like it's just kind of our tendencies, But you know, It depends on the situation, But you know, There are times where I say, You know, I don't know how to fix this. I don't know how to handle this situation. I need to discuss it with you. I need some advice or I'm in this situation. I already know it's just unpleasant and there's, You know, There's nothing I can do about it. So now I just need emotional support. Yeah, Absolutely. And so I think 100% so learning to tell our partners which one we need. Jesse is usually very good at that. And that's what we hear a lot, Right? Is like, Just tell your partner what you need. And that's wonderful advice. But sometimes we genuinely don't know. So sometimes I'm upset, My nervous system is activated. And I haven't really figured that out. You know, If I need comfort, Reassurance, Help, Space, And then with the other person just kind of thinking, I would give you what you wanted if you would just tell me what it is, Right? Like I said, I think Jesse can very often lead with that of like, You know, He's had a hard day, You know, Here's what he needs. Whereas for me, Like again, This is the space where I do my therapy and I just like flow right out into the house afterwards. And if I've had a tough session, I maybe haven't even given myself a chance to think about like, What do I need? Um, You know, Absolutely. I can usually feel it. I can sense it. I can notice in the facial expressions, How she's carrying herself. She walks out and I say, What's, What's going on? What's off? Is it, You know, Has it been a hard day? And oftentimes like she hasn't taken the time and I, And I do get on her for this quite a bit to process at the end of the day and go through things. Um, I was a Waldorf teacher. Mentality and that is something that Rudolf Steiner talked about a lot was reviewing your day and going through it and kind of making peace with it and processing and getting through all that stuff. Yeah, So 100% you know that is something especially as someone who does identify it's very divergent. I need to, And especially after being a therapist all day and thinking about my clients and their needs, It is a shift. Actually, I think I just realized that, That I'm spending all of my, My day focused on what's needed on this side of the screen. And then I just walk out of my office and start interacting with Jesse and immediately want to start taking care of him because I like to take care of people. But if I'm not centered enough to do that, It can really, Ooh, It could really go sideways. A fantastic point. Yeah, I was going to get to that too. This is something, Yeah, We tend to do with our children as well, Especially, You know, We want to take care of our children. We want to try and fix things. We don't want them to have to suffer. And we miss the point, You know, That's, That's life. We can't always fix everything. And sometimes we just need to be there for support and then figure out if there's something that needs to be done or if they need to learn. How to handle the challenges of life and how to overcome those things and deal with them in a healthy way. So a great point, Lisa. Yeah, And I think, Additionally, What I would kind of gently point out is that very often when we jump in and try to fix things, You know, For people where we are, One of the things we might be telling them is that we don't trust them to be able to do that themselves, Right? Like, That is one of kind of the undercurrents in codependency. And I'm not saying that that's, That has to be a codependent behavior. But when we when we see our kids struggling, When I see my husband struggling, And I immediately jump in to try to fix it, There is a part of me that's saying he can't handle this. They can't handle this. I need to fix it for them. And especially with our kids, If we can teach them that, Like, They can tolerate uncomfortable emotions, Right? That we give them a little bit more space to tolerate that. We don't immediately take them out for ice cream or try to fix it or try to make the problem go away for them, But that we give them space to recognize that they can handle hard things. They can handle a lot harder things than we realize, Right? My husband as well, He's handled a lot of hard things. Sometimes he just needs me to say, I believe in you, And I love you. And, You know, I'm here to listen. And so very often, We're offering solutions, Because that's how we show we care. You know, I think that this is especially true for Jesse. But that doesn't mean that he's trying to shut down the emotion. So When you see me kind of struggling, What is your natural instinct? If you see me struggling, You see me emotional. I've had a really tough day or I had something in particular that was challenging. My first instinct is to be curious now, I think, For sure, Is just to start inquiring because, You know, In the past I might not have picked up on things so quickly, Or I might've just ignored the signs and then something boils over and something kind of, You know, Feels off and starts causing friction. So now I try to default, And with kids too, To curiosity. And trying to get in there and like, Just let them talk and, And, You know, Gently, Uh, You know, Inquire what's going on and let them process and get it out and listen. You know, That's a key thing is just trying to listen and hear what they're saying and what they need. Instead of rushing to fix the problem for them. And I think, You know, Minty be like, Absolutely right. By fixing other people, You know, Everything for other people, We weaken them. And Harmony, Nice to see you. I think that's my favorite new phrase is caring. So thank you for pointing that one for me. A couple of people mentioned that no commute doesn't give you the time to progress. And that's very true. That's why you have to be intentional to take that time. I tell Carolyn all the time, Like the thing that would make me happy is is that when you get done with your work day, You would take 20 minutes to do a breath work practice and what I call ring out the sponge. And then come out and see how you feel different. Yeah. And we're still working on it. We're still working on it. Absolutely. Right. And I think it's, It's really difficult for me to stop after work. I just want to kind of keep moving with my day, Like, Because I'm already thinking of the 15 things that happen next, Which again is a very. Um, And so even like today, Like thinking about my weekend, There's so many things that I want to accomplish and get done. Um, And so I'm already thinking about all of those things in mind and I just want to like do all of that. I was trying to negotiate with myself this morning about like, Maybe just take the morning off and we can kind of pick up those things this afternoon, But we'll see. I was trying to find out, Jenny has a question about tips for communicating effectively with neurotypical people. Was that just, That was the whole question, It was with neurotypical folks? Yeah. Yeah. And so I think, Hi Kelly, Is that our Kelly? I think that communicating with neurotypical folks, I was getting to see you, Communicating with neurotypical folks is just being very direct and not being afraid to share exactly what we need, Right? Of sharing that, What I could really use right now. I think one of the things that we were going to talk about today was a question for a husband who doesn't accept his own neurodivergence. Yeah, That can be, I think that can be challenging, Jenny. I mean, I don't think there's any, You know, One answer to that question. Everybody's different. You have to understand people's idiosyncrasies and their patterns and what works with them, That the more you can learn, You know, Who your partner is. But I think everybody, If you just understand where they're coming from, What they're trying to do and just have really open conversation like, You know, What result do you want? If you want that result, You want me to be happy. This is what I need, Whether you understand it or not, Whether you agree with it or not. This is what I'm looking for in, You know, In my life, In my relationship. So that's, You know, That we've talked about social contracts before. I use that example a lot of just clearly stating, Okay, This is what I want. This is what I need. If you can't or won't meet these needs or wants, Then you are likely to experience something that you don't like. Like it's our relationship is not going to be as pleasant. I'm not going to be, Feeling is good and that's gonna affect you. It's not, And it's not a threat or a negotiation. It's just like, Here's what I need. And then, And then you do kind of negotiate those social contracts. Oh, You know, You need that? I can do that for you. Or you want that? That's like asking too much of me, Or I don't agree with that. And so you work together to kind of, You know, Hash it out. It's just a negotiation, You know, And I think I'm absolutely right. So very often, Like, Like we're saying, Like, Sometimes our partners don't know what they exactly fund. And so asking them kind of questions. And again, This is something that Jesse's gotten really good at. And so one of the simplest tools, You know, That I want to give you guys today is maybe when you're, When you see your partner in distress, We ask them, Do you want me to listen, Help you figure out, Or do you just need space? Right. And so just kind of allowing that our partners may need different things. And again, That means that I have to manage my own distress at seeing Jesse distressed and vice versa. Right. Like when Jesse jumps in and wants to to solve it or fix it. He doesn't like to see me distressed either, Right? And so really kind of being able to ask if your partner hasn't already said to you, You know, This is what I'm needing. Okay, You know, It sounds like you're feeling some distress. Do you want me to listen? Do you want me to help you figure it out? Or do you need to take some space? And Jesse sometimes has to remind me, I'm not sending you to your room to deal with this by yourself. Right? Like some of us may have that kind of experience of meeting to kind of deal with our emotions. Privately. So that we don't bother other people or something like that. So really being able to ask, You know, This is incredibly useful. It helps to give us a map. And, You know, Like you were mentioning, Like this may even help the other person who's in that emotional place. When emotion is high, Logic is low. So it may be very difficult to figure out what I need in that moment. So really kind of helping them with that can be helpful. And Carolyn had kind of a triggering experience of, If I would say, Maybe you need to take some time for yourself, It brought up childhood feelings of, You know, Your emotions are too much, Go to your room and just deal with it. We don't want to deal with it. And so, You know, I had to explain to her and get to talk to that part of like, I would specifically say, I'm not sending you to your room because I don't want to deal with you. And telling you you need to take some time and talk to your own parts and listen to them and figure out what's going on. And I am somebody, You know, I, We always try and lead by example. Like Carolyn can attest to this. I go away by myself a lot. If I'm having a hard time. We talk about it and she says, Is there anything more I can do for you at this point? And I say, Nope, I'm going to go. I'm going to do meditation. I'm going to go do a breath work. And then I go do that. I clear it out as much as possible. Then I come back and we reconvene and see if I'm feeling better, If there's anything that came up that maybe I need to talk about more. But that's, I think that's the best way to do it. And it's, It's also, It's honoring your partner. Like it's, Our partner is there for us, But we don't want to wring out the sponge on them. I have a video on my channel about wringing out the sponge at the end of the day. When our sponge is so full of that dirty, Nasty water, Like You don't even have to squeeze it. You're just dripping all over the place. And if you're bringing that home to your partner, Your kids, You know, You're inadvertently getting that stuff on them. And then to a degree like. . . When I was teaching full time, I used to come home and just wring out my sponge to my therapist's wife. And she got so sick of just me dumping every negative thing that happened in my day on her after she'd just finished a day of her own, You know, Giving therapy. And so I think it's really honoring your partner if you can take some time by yourself to do that work and then work with them. Yeah, I think that's a good point. And it is absolutely something that I miss quite a bit. Did you see what CJ said? Your emotions are too much. Calamity Jane. Yeah. That's, That's a funny one. I call her Calamity Carolyn sometimes, But that's only because she's clumsy sometimes and moves way too fast for things and causes problems for herself. Any other ADHDers out there who tend to be moving too quickly? And, And maybe I literally once like was moving so quickly that I reached down and grabbed something and gave myself a question because I hit my head on it. Like the dresser that was there because I just wasn't paying attention. I will bump into things all the time. So yes, I hope that you can can hear that that name with a bit of a laugh now. Thank you so much. I know I'm going to pronounce it wrong. So mean for your donation, Very generous donation. And again, Donations are never expected, But just always very appreciated. It helps us to be able to provide these spaces. But if it bothered you, Go ahead and just close that out. Another great way is following us. Jesse is is adding more content to his side of Insight Timer. And I'm always adding more to mine. So following us is another great way to stay connected. We host these spaces once a month. And I also host additional spaces and Jesse will be soon too. So be sure to follow us so that you can hear when we have new events coming up. Lisa, Thank you so much for your kind donation. You can have a support group for the people that have concussed themselves from moving too quickly. Seems like you're not alone. Time and I have a hard time with my ADHD following or concentrating. I'm used to more of a back and forth conversation. I think, Honestly, I know, I almost, I think I know what Jesse says. What I'm going to say, Give me a second. What I'm going to say is that I can really relate to that very often. It feels like Jesse is talking stream of consciousness. At me in a way, But it is more of that sort of stream of consciousness. So I hear you. And as someone who has a difficult time paying attention, That can be pretty challenging. And so, Jesse, What would your number one tip be? Well, Why don't you guess and we'll see if you're right. My number one tip, I think, Would be eye contact. You would be incredibly surprised probably that people do not make eye contact very well, Especially in this age of most distracted time in human history. And I have a really hard time paying attention to somebody who won't look at me. And as a neurodivergent person, I grew up for a long time having a real struggle with eye contact, Which I think pretty much comes from, You know, Your lack of confidence. You know, When you're, When you're not willing to look somebody in the eye, It kind of feels like they can see you and maybe you don't feel comfortable with that thought. Um, So I've, I've really, Really shifted to where I find eye contact really helpful and almost necessary. And I will ask people, Can you make eye contact? Like some people will talk to you and they will just talk to you like this all the time. And that's when my attention wanders because I feel like, Where are you? Who are you talking to? I can't tell when you're pausing or when I should interject, But when we're eye contact, You know, I, I call that soul to soul communication. Like you can't be any more locked in and focused and showing your partner that you really do care. Then making direct eye contact and holding it. Yeah, And several of you are bringing up the point that eye contact can feel very challenging, Especially with an autism diagnosis, That sort of thing. And I just want to validate that, You know, None of us are a monolith, Right? Like all of us experience this differently. For Jesse, He really has, He found it very hard to make eye contact and really shifted to really needing that eye contact. For a lot of neurodivergent folks, Again, I just want to validate that you are taking in more information than a neurotypical person is. That's just what the research shows us. And so sometimes eye contact, If I'm making eye contact with Jesse, Especially after a day of therapy, I'm very much paying attention to all of his facial expressions, The tone of his voice, Like I'm just taking in so much information. And so sometimes I do just want to stare at a blank piece of wall. And so, You know, We just work on kind of balancing that. But if Jesse is trying to share something important with me, I do try to make that eye contact with him. And he is kind of be patient with the fact that I may just like kind of shift away for a moment, You know, That sort of thing. It literally is just because I'm just getting so much information. And so kind of allowing myself a moment to reset can be really helpful. So yeah, You know, Absolutely. And so 100%. Like I said, Direct eye contact is not the answer for everything. But if you're struggling to focus in a conversation, You know, Even just like kind of focusing on the center, You know, The center of their forehead or something like that can be helpful. But there are definitely other ways to do that. It's a very hot button topic. When I talk to people about the eye contact thing, People have very strong reactions and I understand 100%. Like I spent the majority of my life struggling to make eye contact. And then when I found out I was neurodivergent in my forties, I said, Oh, There's a reason for this. And that's why I struggled with it for so long. But as I went on and did a lot of my inner work, I came to realize that a lot of that eye contact issue was how I felt about myself. And I started really observing and paying attention how I felt inside when I was making eye contact. And I started observing other people and I found out that when other people were talking, If there was anything that they felt not good about, Their eyes would instantly go away. And it was really, And then I've started observing that. And I would say, Why did you look away when I, When you talked about that or when I said that? People love that. People do not love that, But it's part of, You know, And they get very defensive. I can't make eye contact or I can't think when I'm looking at you. And I, I, I have a hard time with that. I get that people think it really helps them to look. Up when they're trying to think about something. But also it can kinda be like. . . I don't feel comfortable enough to hold eye contact for a second while I think about something. We can have stream of consciousness. We don't have to think about everything that we talk about. If we're really engaged, It just comes out and flows. And if two people are doing that, You often have really direct flowing communication. So moving on, Moving on. Again, Not Jesse. This is definitely one of those points where Jesse is very black and white. And I, I strongly disagree as many of you do. But it has to be one way or the other. So absolutely. Thank you so much, Lee, For your kind mention. So I think this might actually be kind of a good moment of transition into the idea that sometimes we do kind of get tripped up on the difference between accuracy versus connection. So sometimes there's a moment of disagreement where one of us might become focused on accuracy. That's not what I said. That isn't what happened. The timeline's not right. And sometimes those distinctions genuinely matter. And maybe saying, I'm just trying to tell you this is how I felt. Right? So those are two different conversations. And very often, That sort of accuracy piece is coming back to defensiveness, Or just factual precision. And the other is that we're just trying to have that relational experience. And sometimes both of those things, You know, Need attention, But not necessarily at the same time. So a useful question can be, Does the factual correction need to happen right now? Or can I understand the emotional point first. Am I asking my partner to validate my feeling or am I asking them to agree with my version of events, Right? And so really kind of focusing on the fact that sometimes it isn't about factual versus, You know, Accurate. Sometimes it may just be, I just need you to hear my experience of these events, Right? And just, Yes, Like the eye contact is still resonating for you guys. So it's a serious issue. I understand the struggle with it and people's struggles with their partners with it. Yeah. It's a big thing. It changed a lot for me. Yeah, Absolutely. And so kind of lastly, Like one thing, Um, And, Um, Once we kind of wrap up with, With our sort of content, So to speak, We'll be here for questions. You know, We're always happy to hang out with the community for as long as you guys want to be here with us. And so. Kind of just sort of lead with is that we want to encourage people to watch out for I'm logic and rational or I'm emotionally aware and therefore more insightful or evolved. And so, You know, Like we're talking about, Like with eye contact, There can be problems on sort of both sides of that, Right? So logic without emotional awareness can be really dismissive or really hurtful. And emotion without reflection can be really just reactive. You know, We can get really spun up in our own emotions if we aren't using that logic to help us reflect. And so we need both of those things. Emotion gives us information just like logic does. Logic helps us kind of organize that. So emotion can tell us that something really matters and logic wants to ask us, You know, What do I want to do with this information? Real quick, Mandy asks if it's okay to be here single. Absolutely, Because this is about relationships, Not just romantic relationships. It's how we deal with everybody. It could be a coworker. People have these interactions all the time. And Kat, Eye contact isn't going to help, Help someone stop rambling, You know, Necessarily, You know, Absolutely. That's a different, A different thing to maybe kind of address, You know, Like, Like I said, Absolutely. Sometimes Jesse will just be kind of giving you stream of consciousness. I literally will hold up, You know, The Waldorf is the quiet candle. I will literally kind of hold my finger up at some point if I feel like I need to interject, Especially as someone with ADHD who kind of constantly feels like I'm going to forget what it was that I wanted to share. About what he was talking about a few minutes ago. And yes, We are recording this. We're doing that for the first time. And so I'm hoping that that works out and that we'll be able to publish this to our Insight Timer so that you can watch this later as well. So fingers crossed that that all works out and I'll be able to edit that and get that up on Insight Timer too. Absolutely. Partner is, Is key to, Is paramount to a healthy relationship. But I'd also like to say that, You know, People tend to identify with one thing and they want to label themselves so much. And I always am striving for balance. Like I was the super emotional kid and then I was the very logical, Very cold adult. And then, You know, Now I'm always trying to look for, For balance in my life. And not just say, This is who I am and I'm sticking to it. And you know, You have to deal with it. Let's see, The questions that we asked about accurate and logic. Are we talking about the three questions of, You know, Do you need me to fix it? Or do you need me to help you solve it? Do you need me to give you emotional support? Or do you need space? Is that what we're talking about? Okay, Yeah, So that's it. So do you need space? Do you need emotional support? Orrrr problem solving. Right, So those are kind of the three options typically, And maybe in your relationship you have more options, Right? And so really kind of trying to pay attention to that can be really helpful. And one of the things that I always suggest anytime my clients come to me with, How do I talk about this with this person or how do I approach this difficult conversation? I always come back to curiosity. That's kind of my easy go to. So one of the healthiest things that we can do is shifting from defending our processes or trying to prove that we're right and just be curious. So instead of telling our partner when they're feeling overly emotional, You know, That just doesn't make any sense. We might want to try, You know, Help me understand, Like, How, How did you get there? Or what's going on behind that? What are some of the thoughts that you're having? And very often, I'll push people to even kind of consider, If the thought that you're sharing with me doesn't equal the emotion that you're expressing, Then what's the rest of the thought, Right? Very often, We stop at the beginning of the thought. And we don't share the whole thing. And it doesn't line up with the emotion. So instead of you're overreacting, What feels biggest about this for you, You know, Or even just what emotion are you feeling right now can be really, Really helpful. Curious, Not furious. Curious, Not furious. Absolutely. We love things that rhyme, Those mnemonic devices. If the float does not fit, You must acquit. I'll never forget. So much for the donations. I know I missed some of you, But I'll send over a message after. The recording will be available here on Insight Timer. I think it'll probably be on my profile or maybe we'll put it on Jessie's so that you guys can go find that content over there as well. So since I'm hosting the live, I think we'll probably host the replay on Jessie's. Thank you so much, Beth. Oh, The three H's. Is this a hear, A hug, Or a help? I like that. That's really nice. These are these are great. These are all really great. You know, Absolutely. GL. My partner projects her feelings on me and then insists I feel something that I don't. Any advice on how to handle that? That's a tough one. That's a really good question. So it's J-E-S-S-I-E, Heidi. So Jesse Watkins. So same last as me. Well, I guess I'm same last as you. Yeah, I had it first. Thank you so much, Beth and Carolyn and John for your donations. So let's get back to that question. So my partner projects their feelings on me and often insists that I am feeling something I don't. Any advice on how to handle that? And I think, You know, Coming back to Jesse's suggestion of like, You know, When I'm looking away, Jesse will very often say, Like, Are you feeling shame? Like what's happening for you? And again, You know, I think that there was a point in our lives where he would say, No, No, Like I believe strongly this is what you're feeling, Even though I'm just saying, Like, I just needed a second to think. I just needed a blank space. Um, And so just really, I don't know, Do you have any suggestions on that? I think all I, All I can do is maybe just be curious of like, You know, Why do you think I'm feeling that way? I think I have to be more curious about this question. I don't, I don't really understand. I guess my partner projects her feelings on me at all. So I feel something. Well, So that would be like, If, If I'm feeling embarrassed or shame and I project onto you that either you are feeling that, Like well, Why are you feeling so ashamed right now? Or maybe I might say, Why are you feeling so judgmental? Like, You're judging me and you're making me feel that way. So just any time that we're reading the other person's feelings and projecting our own onto them, Or like I said, When Jessie will very often tell people if they're looking away, Like, Are you feeling some shame right now? And they may or they may not want to experience that. So they may be hiding from it or they may just not be feeling that shame. Right. You know, So absolutely. So I think I would have to just always kind of come back to that curiosity of, You know, I don't think I'm feeling anger right now. Like, Why are you assuming that? Or how did you get there? You know, I always just kind of come back to curiosity. And again, Talking with our partners outside of that moment of big emotional experience. So, You know, Talking about, You know, Potentially kind of watching something like this together and kind of talking about that can be really helpful. Yes, Ryan, The quiet candle is a powerful tool. Yeah. I will do that a lot as just a reminder because I don't want to interrupt my partner and say like, I'll just, I'll just kind of put my pinky up because that helps me say, Oh, There's a point that I wanted to make, But I'm trying to be patient and I'm trying not to forget it because that's so frustrating. When you're patient for your partner and they're talking and they finally give you a break and you're like, And I forgot what I was going to say. Quiet Candle comes from the Waldorf world. So that's when students want to. . . It's like raising your hand when you have a question. So it's just like, I have something to say. Yeah. Agreed, Beth. I lose my thoughts all the time too. And again, Like as a therapist, I very often have to kind of check that. There may be things that I want to jump in and say. And so it forces me to practice that. I hear a hug or help. Ooh, Or a hamburger. Yes, Absolutely. You can always win me over with a hamburger and a Diet Pepsi. So I wanted to also share, I have another live experience coming up soon that's just me. So the neurodivergent pause, And this will be talking about when others minimize our experience. So very often when we have a diagnosis and we share that with others, They kind of give us the, You know, Oh yeah, Everybody feels that way. Or like, You know, I've even had friends of mine who are our therapists kind of minimize that experience for me because I do mask it so well. And so I think that that can be can be helpful. So that's what we're going to be talking about there. I hope that you'll join me. Um, Thank you so much, Ryan, For your donation. Someone said that jotting down notes during an argument can be a bad thing. Um, And I guess it's the more emotional. I think it's just how it's perceived. Like if you tell your partner, Like, I don't want to interrupt you, But I don't want to lose my thoughts. So I'm just going to write some notes down. Um, You know, But your partner could feel like, What are you trying to be my therapist? You're writing things down as I'm talking or something like that. So I think just, Again, Open communication of like, I'm doing this to help us so that we can communicate better and I don't have to interrupt you. Yeah. To Karen's point, Right? Like if we're letting them know, Like, This is what I'm doing. A really good friend of mine knows that for him that he will very often be on his phone during meetings, You know, Something like that, Just kind of slightly distracted, But he's, He's paying full attention. But he, You know, People view that as like, Oh, You're just, You know, You're goofing off or you're not paying attention, But it actually kind of helps some state focus. And I, You know, Honestly, Like Jesse very often, Like wants my direct contact, Whereas I would be happy to just be playing a game on my phone and listening and, You know, Doing that sort of thing. But that doesn't really work in conversation with the two of us. Right. So. So, Yeah, Some people can just perceive that a certain way. All right, So we're getting up to about the 45-minute point again. Always, Always happy to hang out and spend some time with you guys. So any other kind of questions or any other thoughts that people, You know, Want to share? Yes, Karen, 100%. It's really helpful to just kind of forewarn people or just let them know or even just explain, You know, Like I have ADHD. I find it really hard to like stay focused. I very often lose my thoughts. And so I just want to, I'm just jotting those down so that I don't have to interrupt you because, And again, The reinforcement can be really helpful. Because I really care about our relationship. I don't want to be interrupting you all the time and so that's what I'm doing. So reinforcing that that's why we're doing it is because I care. I think, You know, Two of the things that we come back to all the time that are the most important for relationships are one, That both people understand themselves as best as possible. That's the goal for all of us is to understand what's going on inside for ourselves so that we can communicate to other people because so many people have all this turmoil going on inside, But they don't know why they don't know what's going on and they don't know how to act. Ask for help or convey their needs or wants, And then communication. So many people are just not willing or they're scared or this is kind of the norm of not being forthcoming and not expressing what's really going on inside and having direct, Open, Honest communication all the time. You know, Why are you writing notes? This is why I'm writing notes. How does that make you feel? Well, It makes me feel like, You know, You're my therapist. Well, I'm not trying to be, This is what I'm doing. Those conversations like we we find so often when we talk to other people that they're not talking to each other. And we're just like. . . Um, Don't you think you guys should be talking with each other about these things? Like it's being honest with himself. I mean, That's, That's something that everybody has to do. I call that the mirror test. And I'm a big fan of the never ending story. And most people are scared to look in the mirror and admit what's going on inside. You know, They feel shame and they don't feel good about it, But that's how we heal. That's how we learn to accept ourselves and work on those things that we don't feel good about. So we always, Um, Recommend the internal family system from Richard Schwartz, The book, No Bad Parts, Uh, Is really helpful. It has been really helpful for us for understanding what's going on inside of us. And our partner. It helped me understand Carolyn so much more than I ever did. It gave me so much insight. Because, Um. . . I know my wife. My wife is a therapist. She's very intelligent and emotionally intelligent and so great at so many things. And when she's not being that person. You know, In the past I was trying to always figure out and, And, And. Didn't understand why she was different. And then learning that system and how, You know, That, That way of viewing things going on inside, It helped me to recognize instantly, Oh, That's not. My wife's highest self as we refer to it like that's not her best self and then I would get curious of which version of her this is and being a teacher I would say this feels like a very angry 12 year old girl student that I had who was had all these emotional things going on and dealing with And then I would shift perspective and shift my tactic because the same tactics for a, You know, A 47 year old therapist don't work when a angry 12 year old part is driving the bus. And so I would have to shift and meet her where she was at and not expect her to always be her best self. And that changed things monumentally for us. Yeah. Maybe that's, Maybe that's our next conversation. I think that would be a great topic. Home, You know, Maybe next time. So yeah, I think absolutely. So the name of the book is No Bad Parts. So I put that in the chat. No Bad Parts by Richard Swartz. He also has a fantastic workbook that guides you along and it also includes some meditations. And Richard Swartz happens to also be here on Insight Timer. So you can find his channel and his things, You know, That sort of thing. Any tips for not shutting down in conflict? It may mean that we need to take a pause, Right? You know, And so sometimes even just letting a person know, I'm feeling really overwhelmed and I really want to pull away right now. And so what I could use is five minutes, 10 minutes, An hour. We have to come back. You know, If you're going to take a pause, It's really important that you come back when you say you will. The other thing that I would recommend is just mindful awareness, Right? Like literally kind of using grounding skills. I've literally looked at the wood grain on the table. You know, As Jesse and I are talking to remind myself, You know, That I'm present, Very often what happens is that we either start responding to things that happened in our past. Previous relationships, Previous traumas, Or we start worrying about what might happen in the future. And so literally just like getting present and being grounded in where we are and the person that I'm actually talking to can be helpful. Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. Absolutely. Karen, Always our great quote bringer. Let's see. Tips for when you attempt to shut down, For when you attempt to pause and your partner gets mad because you've shut down. So again, Carol, I Are you expressly communicating that you do need a break or are you just shutting down and it feels like. . . You know, The partner might perceive that as, Oh, She's just checking out. Right. Yeah, And I think, Caroline, To your point, Right? My first husband was the youngest. And so very often I would say, Hey, Like, Can we talk about this later? But I wouldn't say, I'm going to take a 10 minute time out or that sort of thing. And it was very hard for him to do that, Because very often I think, Can we talk about this later meant we're never talking about this again. And so he would follow me and kind of push me and that would turn into a bigger argument. So absolutely. When our partners have had that experience where, Hey, You know, Let's take a moment or I'll talk to you about this in five minutes or tomorrow or whatever just meant you're never coming back to this. So we have to teach them, You know, To trust us that we're going to come back to that, Right? So very often, Yes, Like I need a bit of a timeout or we're kind of at the point where like we will notice like if things are getting overly emotional and and not, You know, Logic has kind of gone all the way out the window. Let's take a break. Go, You know, Go do what you need to do and let's come back. And one of the most important things. Jesse's getting better at doing it automatically, But in the past I've said, Hey, I just need you to tell me that we're okay, Right? I need you to look me in the eyes. I need you, Even though we're both upset, I need you to tell me that we're okay. Yeah, And now he's asking for eye contact. So yeah, Caroline, I say your husband needs an audience. That's not just you. Like he needs to get out and perform or do something or start a YouTube channel. If he needs attention, Sometimes we do need attention. And sometimes that inner part needs that attention that we didn't get as a kid. So tell him to find another audience, Expand his audience. He needs more than just one. I'm a musician. I like to get up there and do those things. Like I'm always on stage. I'm always performing. Carolyn never gets tired of it though. Just endlessly entertained by me, So I'm very lucky. Absolutely. And yes, I haven't read you're the one you've been waiting for, But I want to read that. So it's good to hear that. That's a good one. He has a lot of followers on the internet. Interesting. Oh, Well, There you go. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe he needs to find a way to interact with them. Like, You know, Honestly, Like Jesse is going to be floating off of this for, You know, The rest of the day. Like this honestly is one of our favorite times. So absolutely. So finding ways to connect with other people. I cannot be everything to my husband. Right. You know, So absolutely. How do we approach the lack of commitment to? Agreed on things. So if we've made an agreement and then they don't follow through, Is that what we're talking about? I have a feeling. Yeah, That sounds like it. Yeah. I mean, I would say that, You know. Agreed on things, You know, We intend to do those things first of all. If we agree on it, Usually we actually intend to follow through. Um, And so we, We established that there are some, Some consequences of not following through on, Uh, Something that we agreed on, Like, You know, Uh, You, Will you do the dishes tonight? Yes. Okay, If you don't do the dishes tonight, I'm going to be upset in the morning and that's going to be reasonable and you should know that that's what's happening. The other thing that I would say is that I find the most often is when we can't complete a task or we can't live up to a commitment that we've agreed to. It's usually because we're struggling internally so much. I always say that doing the dishes when you're depressed just feels like carrying 2000 pounds. You're just like. Amen. I get to the point where I'm like, I get in the kitchen, Do I want to put this plate in the sink or the dishwasher? And if I'm not feeling good, I'm like, That dishwasher is really far away. And I'd have to bend over and then lift my body back up. And that's way too much for me. It's the getting it back. So it, It could be, You know, A thing of trying to have a little bit of compassion and, And being curious and saying, You agreed to do this. Why are you not able to fulfill your, Your agreement and your commitment? What's going on? I do believe that you wanted to, Or you intended to, But you're not following through. So curious before furious. Now that's in my head. I think that's a great way to approach it. And there does have to be consequences. Like we don't just automatically give everybody a clean slate all the time and say, You know, That encourages poor behavior. Somebody's doing a pattern over and over again. You can't just be like, Okay, You can't just. You know, Cry on my shoulder every time you don't want to do the dishes. That's not, That's not going to work. Sometimes we're going to have to overcome these uncomfortable feelings and figure it out. Yeah. Yeah, Absolutely. So people seem very interested in getting to know you a little bit more. Um, So I've shared, Um, Jesse's is Jesse Watkins or, Um, Moonchild147. Um, So hopefully you can find him here on Insight Timer. Um, Again, Thank you guys so much for being here today. Um, I, We will post our link for the next, You know, At the home live coming up. Usually we do these about a month at a time. I don't think this is going to bump into, Yeah, So we'll probably do this the end of next of October. I don't think it's going to bump into our Alzheimer's block, Which is something we do every year. And so thank you guys again so much for your donations. Thank you so much for your time and your presence here. I hope that you found this to be helpful and supportive. And again, This is our experience. And like we talked about, Like with eye contact, Different experiences. The workbook title I think it's just No Bad Parts, The workbook. If you look up Richard Swartz, If you look up No Bad Parts on Amazon or something like that, Your local bookseller, You'll find that. Yeah, And the workbook is easier to go through because it has directions and steps and it's not just reading because it can be hard to absorb so much of that for a long period of time. So it kind of breaks it up. Thank you so much, Emma. Thank you so much, Everybody. Again, It's so nice to see you. Yes, I do have a new meditation coming out. I'm recording more today, But I have a meditation for motivation. So it's pretty short. It's only about five minutes and now a little bit of breathing time after that. So that should drop any day now. We're just waiting on insight timers. So please check that out. And more to come. More to come. All right, Guys. Thank you so much for being here. It's such an honor and such a privilege. Take care, Everybody. Heh heh heh heh. At the helm with jesse and carolyn departing

Reviews

This came at just the right time for my husband and me. Took away some great skills to apply to our communication. Thank you!