Interview: Rev. Anne-Marie ~ Hospice Work Miracles!

Rev. Anne-Marie shares multiple stories of magic and mystery this time, including several from the years she worked as a Hospice Chaplain. There is no doubt that being there for those who are stepping through into the next realm of mystery is a sacred duty and one in which Rev. Anne-Marie excels!

Transcript

Hi, Everybody, And welcome back to the podcast that solely exists to remind you how magical and mysterious and even miraculous this world can be. And the miracle this week is my guest, Reverend Anne-Marie Zanzal, Who, After graduating from Yale Divinity School with her Master's of Divinity, Worked as a hospice chaplain for 12 years. She's an author. Speaker. She's a podcast host, And she's also a coming out coach. And we talk about all this in great detail, As you'll hear if you listen to the longer form interview. And then after the outro, There's an Easter egg of additional information and more conversation, Which tells a little bit more about the work that Reverend Anne Marie does. And then there's some more fun little nuggets in there that I think you'll enjoy. All right, That's enough of the intro. Let's get into my conversation with Reverend Anne Marie. Occasionally you'll see somebody's spirit leave their bodies and they look like gargoyles. It's really, Really interesting. Like they just like, They look ugly. Most people look beautiful, They look peaceful, But occasionally there's some really like, You know, Just like images that I'll never get out of my head. I would describe myself. As a healthy Enneagram 8. Who likes to help people. To live their best lives by releasing shame and guilt. I am also a passionate mom. And a grandma now, Too. I have one little grandchild. Um. . . I have a spiritual bent. I am an ordained minister. And I have a deep spiritual bent and that is one of the lenses in which I look at the world but also When I came out at 52, The lens, The general lens on which I looked at the world shifted from someone who thought they were straight lens to a queer LGBTQ lens. So I feel because I came out later in life. In my particular journey, It really helped me become more compassionate than I was, More understanding, And more live and let live kind of girl. Oh, I love that. I love that live and let live. I feel like the world would be so much sweeter if we all just did a little bit more of that. Don't you think? Because like, If we just let people love who they love, Live the lives they want to live, As long as they're not hurting another human, Then I do think the world would be a better place. And it is so ironic now in our world that people who are hurting other humans are trying to tell us how to live our lives. I'm gonna, This is air quotes, Morally, Which I just think is ludicrous. Well, You yeah, I mean, Yes, That's a whole other conversation. Yeah, That's a whole conversation. I want to ask you because I'm kind of privy to some of the work you've been doing. You R. You've been in hospice care for quite a long time. And I'd like to hear a little bit more about that. But could we start with When you were a kid, Did you think this is the work or at least some of the work that you'd be doing? Well, It really is ironic because I grew up Catholic. I went to Catholic school. We were a very church going family. My mom was really Catholic and really believed, You know, In Catholicism. And because I grew up in the church and school, I'm honestly going to say that I love church and school because I grew up in a chaotic household. So having a place where I knew the rules and knew what to do was really good for me. So church and school and the ritual of church was all very, Very assuring. And so Faith as a Catholic kid was actually okay. I know a lot of people will disagree with either throwing their iPhone across the room right now, But it was okay for me. It really was. It provided me with safety and security and routine that I desperately needed. Um. . . And I always felt like a call to ministry. But since the only options were for girls was becoming a nun, I knew that I didn't want to be a nun. I wanted to have children. I wanted, At that time, To be married to a man and have a family. I wanted all those things. I mean, It's preached from you know, The rooftops and Catholicism that being a wife and a mother is one of the highest callings for a woman. So I bought that one hook, Line, And sinker. And so I did feel a call to ministry, But like I didn't, There was no place for me to go. So I let it go. So ironically, I did think about like vocation when I was young, But just didn't think that there was a place for me in it. And then when I got older and started to attend churches where they had female pastors and stuff like that, That is when I realized, Oh, I actually can do this and be a married woman. So yes. I didn't obviously think of hospice. And to be honest, Modern American hospice didn't start until 1978. So by that time, I was 14. So I was in high school by then. But ironically, It started in Connecticut, Which is where I'm from, And Yale New Haven, Which is where I went to Yale from Div school. So it's ironic that I had such connections to all that. And so, Um, You know, I never thought of going into hospice. And ironically, When I was doing what is called clinical pastoral education, That is how you become like a a chaplain with the credentials to work in hospitals and institutions. People sometimes call themselves chaplains, But they don't actually have the credentials. You know, You have to have those credentials to work in hospitals, Colleges, Institutions, Stuff like that. For the whole time, I wanted to be a clinical pastoral education supervisor, And the other woman in my cohort wanted to be a hospice chaplain. And we actually ended up, When we graduated, Switching roles. Up going into hospice chaplaincy. So it was not something I ever intended to do, But I learned a lot. Oh, That's I mean. Oh, Yeah. Wow. I I love all that. It's so interesting. And, And again, I just reflect on how the world has changed that you know, When you were growing up, Your option was to become a nun. And now, You know, I mean, Things are slightly different in the Catholic Church. I mean, Yeah, And actually, They've gotten worse. They've gone backwards, Though the Pope seems to be the new Pope seems to be pretty good. But the problem is, Is that Like most conservative religions, A lot of the parents homeschooled. And so their children that have now grown up often have very conservative theologies. And those are the people that are going into becoming priests and nuns. And so those conservative theologies are following them. So hence, The American Catholic Church is becoming more conservative. It was much more liberal in the 70s than it is now. That's fascinating. Well, I, You know, I dated a Catholic guy for five years and we went to the. And I was in Portland, Oregon, And we went to the archdiocese there, The church is exquisite. And I would say it was more liberal, But it was Portland, You know? Yeah. It was Portland. I mean, It just, And that was like a while ago, 15 years ago or so. So, You know, I've, I kind of haven't been in those spaces and places. Although, You know, Something I did. I don't even know my audacity. Um, When we would travel, He lived in Walla Walla, Washington and the Catholic church there was quite conservative and it was small. We went one time and there were like 10 people there and it was in this tiny little house. And, Um, You know, I like talking to the priests because I like having an exchange of ideas and he seemed really nice. And I just read this book that had rocked my world. Um, The existential Jesus. It was absolutely fascinating because I have a low Christology, Um, For me, Jesus is more. Accessible kind of through my heart when he's more human versus more divine. More divine. Exactly. I agree with you. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I love this book so much. I bought an extra copy and I gave it to the priest. And as we left, My partner at the time was like, Are you insane? He is going to burn that book the minute he gets home. And I was like, Oh my God. You know, I mean, I guess, You know, Sometimes people don't have the capacity to read different things or open them up. Absolutely. I thought, You know what, I hope he doesn't burn it. I hope he just donates it or gives it away. OK, So you go and you follow this path. When you began, Because I have considered working in this area, But I don't know if I have the nervous system or the guts or I don't the capacity, I guess you could say, To sit at someone's deathbed. And so can you talk to me about what it looks like to do that work? And how about the first time, The first time that you entered someone's room, Or you were present with someone? Were you nervous? Were you scared? What was that like? Um. . . I don't think I was nervous or scared. A lot of people go into hospice work because they're terrified of death. And by working in hospice, At least I was, I don't really have a fear of it anymore. Um. . . So taking a couple steps back, If you're in any major denomination here in the United States, You have to do that one unit of clinical pastoral education. I always, I went into ministry to be a chaplain. I'm very unusual. Some people, You know, Go in to be a pastor. And so that one unit of clinical pastoral education is all they need. They do their CPE, They're out. Because CPAE is an action-reflection model. So you do the action, You reflect on it, And man does it. Blow your world apart. And a group. . . It's almost what's called a, It's like group therapy. So we, You know, You have your cohort, Four or five other people that are sort of in the same process of their educational slash religious journey. And you have a cohort and you know, All your stuff goes up with the cohort because it is facilitated like a therapy group, Like a group therapy group. And a lot of times your stuff comes out because what you find in the action reflection model is that you'll write about something and whatever is most, Even if you're seeing somebody, Sometimes it's not about the patient at all, It's about what this brings up for you. So I spent my first, I grew up in an alcoholic home, I spent my first unit of CPE trying to take care of 50-year-old alcoholic men. So that is, You know, People do that. And it really wasn't until the last day of my first unit that I even started talking about my mom and my relationship with her because that was very protected at that point. I was very, I was 42 when I did all this, So it was 20 years ago. And what was really interesting is like learning to, Like 20 years ago, I never would have said, I grew up in an alcoholic home. My dad was an alcoholic. It's just a statement of fact, You know? But I never would have said it because it would have felt disloyal to how my parents raised me. And so going through CP and everything like that helped me put my helped me deal with some of my childhood stuff that I had never dealt with before. And it helped me realize a lot of things about myself. And one of the things is, Too, Is I was good at it. I was very unusual. I got offered a job right after. Everybody wants to work as a chaplain afterwards, But I actually got offered a job. And I worked at the hospital that I had done my CPE. And then all through seminary, I did CPE. I went all through seminary as a working chaplain, You only need one unit to like be a part time one. And then I did a residency. After I finished seminary, And that was something I was always going to do. You know, Becoming a chaplain was, It really wasn't about working in hospice. It was more working in the hospital, Which I liked more, But it's easier to find a job in hospice, Honestly. And because Hospice is paid for by Medicare. And Medicare requires spiritual counseling. So that is why all the hospices out there have chaplains. And so it was easier to find a job. And also, At that time, I was still married to my ex. And he never would have moved with me to find a church or anything like that. So that's why I was always going to be a chaplain. Because that was how I was going to fulfill my, But it wasn't particularly going to be in hospice. It just happened to be that it just worked out as a mother of, You know. Four kids. At the time I graduated seminary, They were like eight to 16. I was busy and that was a good time. Pretty typical nine to five job except for being on call. Let me ask you, I have had a few death doulas on this show. Can you describe the difference from your point of view between hospice, The care that you have done, And a death doula? Well, Death Duelers were just coming in when I left Hospice World. So I left Hospice World in 2017, 16? No, 2018. I ended up, I did it for about 10 years and ended in 2018. So Death Duelers were just appearing on the scene. So I am, To be truthful, I don't really know what they do, But what I used to do, Is that I would Um. . . Help people. Using their own spirituality and faith tradition. Or none. To help them to accept what was happening to them. And to listen to their life review because that's really important in hospice and so I would just listen to people's stories and also too one of the things is like you know When you end up doing something that meets with your natural gifts, Like my ex-husband used to joke that I could talk to a tree, But honestly, Trees would talk to me. I would sit down and somebody would inevitably tell me their life story. And I still do that now in the work I do now. And so it was very, First of all, It was never scary for me. I also had gotten to the point where I just knew that death is part of life. And so I was not scared of that part at all. And what was really interesting is I have a real natural curiosity about people and how they tick and why they make decisions. You know, Why they made the choices they made. And I do feel like there's a direct correlation between my hospice work and me coming out later in life. Because what I learned from my patients is people do not regret the things they've done. If they've done something that they do regret, They make meaning out of it. So at some point, They'll make a meaning out of, You know, Maybe they made a stupid mistake or, You know, They got divorced when they shouldn't have. Um what they what they do regret. Is the things they haven't done. So I learned from my patients that if there were some things that I needed to explore and go do with my life, That I should do it because what I knew in my heart is I didn't want to be on my deathbed and regret any of the choices I had made. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, Really, Truly, Absolutely. Talk about just learning, You know, Just being not I don't want to use the word confronted, But kind of being reminded over and over again with each person. What, What a lesson or what a powerful piece of advice that we should all listen to personally. I'm going to put you on a spot and ask you a big question. What do you think death is? I'm so curious. Um, So what I believe is that I don't believe in heaven and hell. I haven't believed in heaven and hell for 20 plus years. So way before I was a chaplain or anything like that, Um, Because I couldn't reconcile a loving, Loving entity with someone with an entity that would cause us pain and all that stuff. I just couldn't reconcile that. Um, And what I believe, What I know from quantum spirituality is that energy never dies. Energy just gets transmuted from one form to another. And after having seen literally thousands of people die, I know that once somebody's spirit leaves their body, Their energy that leaves their body. Some people call it spirit, Some people call it chi, Some people call it the holy ghost. I mean they call it all different things but once that leaves the body Our bodies are literally just shells. That's what they look like. They look like a shell. It's like that whatever animates us has left, Has left the building. So, I honestly. . . The older I get, The more I tend to lean towards reincarnation because of those unusual stories that you hear from children. Telling these incredible stories that they have no way of knowing. I'm glad we probably most times don't, I mean kids forget all that stuff by the time they're five. I'm going to tell you, I really don't want to go through this. But if I don't know. . . That I've been through this before, It'll be okay. So, Because life is hard. Life is hard. It's hard. You noticed it, I guess. Yeah. Life is hard, And there's wonderful, Joyous, Happy, Crazy times, And then there's times that are so hard. So then there's also, So there's the reincarnation piece, But then also, Are we souls having a human experience? You know, And I think that whatever comes after, Or before is so beyond our comprehension that we can't understand it. So I'm very like I so honestly I'm sort of curious I mean I'm not going to be celebrating when I you know am dying but who knows maybe I will be because a lot of times when people are 90 plus they're so ready to go they're like I don't want to live here anymore, You know. Oh, Yeah. And I think just from, You know, Books that I've read, Podcasts I've listened to, That many times, Even guests on the show, Many, Many times, You know, The people who are in the stages of passing, Have experiences within the room. And have conversations with people that no one else can see. I had a guest and she said she was kind of jealous because her mother was passing and her mother was having a full on conversation with her aunt who had passed away 10 years before. And she said, Mom, I want to, I want to talk to aunt, Whatever her name was. And she said, No, Go away. This is our time. We're, You know, She's with me now and this is my time with her. You're not included. And my guest said it was totally natural. It was absolutely beautiful. Oh yeah, That happens all the time. I mean, Okay, If you want to be a doubter, You can say it's just our brain shutting down and stuff like that. But if you want to embrace the more spiritual side of life, People talk to their loved ones all the time. And I've heard stories about people being in the hospital and, You know, Sick and like a loved one will have died, But they didn't know they died. They didn't tell them or something like that. And then they're talking to the loved one. Like, Oh, Dad's waiting for me right now. I gotta go and see dad. And so they didn't know dad just died two days before, Because no one told them, But they're seeing dad, You know? Oh yeah, It's such a mysterious experience and threshold. It's fascinating, But for me also scary. Because even though this life is so hard and there are so many challenges, I find it also to be exquisitely beautiful. And I don't want to miss a sunset. I don't want to miss a new song that comes out. I don't want to miss the shape of that cloud in the future. But can you have hope that maybe what's coming next is so much better than this? Oh my gosh, I already know it's going to be like intoxicating. I'm going to be like, Oh my gosh, What was I thinking? But the very human part of me pines and aches for this world and the experience, Even though, As I've said, It's been really painful. Um, I want to get back to you talking about when the Holy ghost or the spirit or the essence of someone leaves and they become kind of a shell because it was so fascinating. My father passed away in April and I got there. The whole thing was absolutely fascinating. And I'll tell more about it in depth in a later episode, But, Um, I got there. Um, I visited him in his dementia care unit about four or five times, Feeding him lunch, Spending time with him. And the one thing he'd been saying for the last couple years, Every time at the end of every conversation, Even when he couldn't speak was, I want you to come home. I want you to come home. So I really made sure that he knew I was there. And he recognized me and he lit up and he said, It's so good to have you here. Um. . . And after about a week. Or eight or nine days, He finally just decided, He said, I'm not going to eat anymore. Just stopped eating and you know was in a varying levels of consciousness after that but there was one time that he just. You could look at him and you saw him, He was in a coma, But it was a shell. And I just absolutely knew he wasn't there anymore. He was gone already. We had a really kind of remarkable experience, My stepmother and I. Um. . . At the end, When he was going in and out of consciousness. And I was sitting on the side of the bed and she was at the end of the bed. And, You know, I wasn't really scared for him dying. I felt so I had so much grief around him leaving this world because he is so and was so enchanted with every day and every human being he had this boundless curiosity and so the world for him was literally enchanted and so I knew I was grieving for him leaving that because I knew how much how deeply in love with the world that he was but we were just sitting there and he was out of it my stepmother was at the end of the bed and all of a sudden He woke up and he started singing to me. And at first it was just, And he wasn't a singer. He did not sing his life. Um he started singing it first it was nonsense syllables and then he just started singing over and over lovely lovely lovely love her love her love her and um and then he threw in a good old classic eieio and then more not you know some more beautiful tra la la nonsense syllables and then back to lovely lovely lovely love her and then he i mean he sang for about and i sang with him i knew that this was and i followed his What he wanted I sang with him and then it lasted probably about three or four minutes and then he Closed his eyes and disappeared and basically never it was like his last is last to know. I know it was while it was happening. I thought I I don't even know what's happening. This is so unusual. But, You know, Of course, My science mind. Because my father literally the last few months couldn't really speak or form coherent sentences. That was the kind of dementia he got. But, You know, My science mind. Said, Oh gosh, You know, This is so fascinating. Consciousness researchers have been debating on where consciousness is. Is it non-local outside of us? Is it singular inside of us? Like, Where is it? Where is it coming from? Because part of the research, Because people who have dementia and they cannot explain this because it is so strange. Most times they can't speak, They can't sing, They can't form coherent sentences about 24 to 48 hours before they pass, They will come back to their family and the people in the room from anywhere from five minutes to 30 minutes and have incredible conversations with no hint of their dementia. You can't even tell. That that part of their brain is destroyed or non-functioning, And they are able to absolutely connect with everyone in the room and have a conversation. And so for me, I was thinking, Oh my gosh, This is, Consciousness researchers are like, Okay, That argues that consciousness is non-local and outside of the body because they are accessing this kind of larger energy. Yeah, And that happens a lot. I've had that happen numerous times with dementia patients, Especially with song, Because song is, Often something that we remember, Especially early songs. So I remember once I had this 99-year-old lady, Hadn't spoken at all, And they had a little note up in the nursing home that she was a part of her church choir back then. So I started singing Amazing Grace with her, And I had seen her for a year and nothing, You know, And she joined me and sang with me. And then she disappeared again. It's almost like they have consciousness for a moment or two, And then they leave. And it's such a gift to have that happen. That's happened a lot to me in hospice, Especially because I used to sing a lot with people and people remember songs. And also, Too, A lot of times people will remember like things from childhood and stuff like that more, Because when you have dementia, Remember the old cassette tapes? It erases from the most recent thing. So like that's why, For example, Sometimes youngest children will be forgotten before older children. Sometimes first wives, Second wives will be all of a sudden being called by the first wife's name because that tape has erased. And so it's really, That is a miracle when somebody, Comes to and you get to talk to them. I also have another story somebody A man, I actually heard this from another hospice chaplain, A man had very devotedly taken care of his wife for years as she laid in the fetal position in her bed for years and years and years. And right before she died, She woke up, She looked at him and said, Thank you for taking such good care of me all this time. And then she left. I just think that's amazing. And it gives you goose chills and makes you realize how much we just don't know. Agreed, Agreed. I have to say that that moment with my father felt like time out of time. And it felt like our spirits touched each other. But The other thing that was fascinating is just. . . After he left, I guess for the last time you could say. You could look at his body and just know that he wasn't there anymore. He was already on the next adventure. And it's so hard to describe what happens to the human body during this process of dying. But he became a shell, I guess. You know, I've thought to myself without that presence of the soul, Which I think makes us juicy and alive and, You know, Beautifully out in the world and activating all our cells and everything. Yeah, The body is just that it's a vehicle. But yeah, Yeah. And and also remembering physics, Energy doesn't get destroyed. And so it has to go somewhere. And that's what brings me great comfort. I love that. I'd love to ask the main question of the podcast, Which is, I would be so grateful if you would share any stories where you thought you witnessed or experienced something magical, Miraculous, Or mysterious. I'd like to talk a little bit about meeting my wife. So I was in the process of coming out. And my therapist said to me, Emery, When you start dating, What kind of woman are you looking for? And I said, Well, I'm looking for somebody who's been out for a while, Because I know there's a lot that I don't know about the LGBTQ community. I'm looking for somebody who doesn't have kids, Because I have four, And that's a lot, And I didn't want to combine families. I knew my capacity for that. And then I said, I would like somebody who has a healthy respect for religion, Because at that time I was working as a minister. So they didn't have to be religious because I don't care about that, But they have to be respectful of what I do. And she messaged me three days later. For the first time. And we were in a Facebook group together and she messaged me. And of course, Like a lot of women, When they're first starting to think about dating women, I immediately put her in the friend zone. But what's really interesting is she noticed me first and she always talks about this because this group was a group of women coming out later in life. And it really helped me be able to do that because community changes everything, You know. And so I was in that group. She's a long time out lesbian. She's been out since 1980s, But she and her partner of 15 years had recently broken up. And so when this woman from Nashville, Tennessee formed this group, She said, Hey, Does anybody want to help? Because I know that there's a lot that these women don't know, And we need people from the community that know a little bit more and stuff like that. And so my wife, Tonda, Said, I'll do it. And so they were planning some sort of event, And I was still so nervous and so new, And it was like six months away, But she was helping with like planning Airbnbs and stuff. And she asked, Is anybody okay sharing bedrooms, Right? And I said, Oh, I don't care. Me anywhere thinking I don't even know if I'll be doing this. And she looked me up. She was like, I, You know, She goes, Oh my God, She's a minister. She went to Yale Divinity School. You know, She got these four gorgeous kids behind her. Like what could, What could that, Well, How could hard that would be? And, And so she reached out to me and I immediately put her in the friend zone and, But at the same time. She reached out to the woman that started the group and said, Anne-Marie said that I could put her anywhere. Is it okay if I put her in my bed? And the woman who founded the group said, Well, You two are going to have to work that one out. And what's amazing to me, And I always joke that my wife gave me the crash course on being a lesbian, And I'm not talking about sex. What I'm talking about is when my internalized homophobia would show up. She would always question it and sort of give me a gentle tap and stuff like that. So I truly believe that I met her when I did because I was supposed to do this work, Which is now working with people coming out later in life with a ministerial lens. And because the universe didn't want me to be like worrying about my dating life for five years. You know, And I have, She's been incredibly supportive of me and my work as well. So that to me was like really. Like, Unbelievable. I wasn't, You know, I wasn't, And to be very clear, At that point in my journey, I wasn't looking to date, I wasn't looking to have a romance, Nothing, You know, And we didn't have one until like six months later, But she first reached out three days after I gave her the criteria, And she met every single one of those. Oh my gosh, That's actually pretty remarkable. The timing of all of it is pretty remarkable. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. Let me ask you, You know, When you were making or when you were having this realization, I guess, And maybe trying to find some peace with it, Was it scary? Oh, It's terrifying. And so let me tell you, So I do this work now. This is all I do is work with people coming out later in life. And we tend to fall into three buckets. So there's the women that never ever thought that they were gay. They met another woman and they fell in love or and it doesn't have to be consummated, It doesn't have to be returned, But they realize, Oh, Wait a minute, I don't think I'm as straight as I thought I was. Then there's the women that had girlfriends in high school or college, But then said, You know, I can't, You know, I'm not, You know, For whatever reason, They decided to be with men. And then there's people like me, I was somebody that always started new. But I never pursued it. I mean, I even had consciousness thinking of how to pursue this when I was in my 20s, But at that time I had dated someone my family did not approve of, And so I had just gotten back into a relationship with them, And so when I consciously wondered out loud whether I was gay or not, I was like, I can't do this again. I can't be estranged from my family again. And who knows? Maybe I wouldn't have been. But that just shut it down for me. It's terrifying for people because First of all, OK. Everything we do in life until we're in our midlife often has a map to it. We know how to do things because the people that have, And especially if we are following the path set out by our elders, By our community, By our church, Whoever. So we know what to do because, Oh, First I do this, And then I do this, And then I do this. But when you are forging your own path, Yeah. It's really scary because you don't know what's next and that's what people struggle with the most like clarity of Where's my next step? What do I do here? Okay, I figured out that I might not be straight. Like, Okay, So now what do I do? You know, Because there's no like. Although I've created, I mean, Like one of my course that a lot of people get to know me through is called, It's a three-day clarity event, And it says, Finally, A map forward. Because honestly, There is a map, But we just haven't talked about it. Enough in society because there's been such shaming around people being not straight. Oh, Yeah, Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, You kind of have to live in a city like Portland that's really LGBTQI friendly, You know. Well, Or you have to learn not to give care of what other people think. And I do feel like, Because so many of my women come out You know, They often get divorced. And that time period, We call it the messy middle. And that time period, I always say, This is where we learn not to care about what people think. Because to live as an openly gay person in this society, We have to not care what people think about us. And really, That time period in the messy middle, That's where women who have spent their lives worrying about what people think, Let it go and they start to not worry about it so much anymore. One of my abilities when I was working in hospice, And I don't want to get too woo on you. I love woo. I love woo. I can feel, When I was working with the people that were sick and or dying, I would touch them and I can feel their energy. And I have had people tell me my hands are unusually warm. I mean, I don't tell. No one ever knew that. And I very rarely told people about it because it does sound really woo-woo. So I could feel people's energy, And I think One of the reasons why I could feel this energy is that people who are dying in particular are almost like a door between this life and next life. They're a portal. And so I think I could feel the energy on the other side. That's how I've determined what that was. Everybody's energy has been good except one person. I had one person, It was a cop who was dying alone. He was in his 70s and when I touched him I almost felt like I was going to throw up. Don't know what it was, He was a Vietnam vet. Not sure, I don't know anything about his life, But everybody else was fine. Everybody else was fine. So I just want everyone to know, Don't be frightened. Most everybody's, You know, There's only been one person that out of all my experiences that ever had a, You know, A bad reaction. The thing is when you're in hospice, Working in hospice, There are little miracles all the time. You know, Not capital M miracles, But little m miracles, Where all of a sudden things fall into place, People connect. Well, I think one of the things that I think is especially powerful about the work that you do or you did. I should say is that. One of the most sacred jobs we have, You know, Not only besides for being present. With them while they're in almost like two worlds, You know, They're stepping through that door that you were talking about, Is the keeper of the stories and the listener or the hearer of the stories of these people's lives. Because of course, Every person is different. What they've experienced is so different. But at this threshold, At this moment in time, They are sharing with you their experiences, Their memories, Who they are and were. Like their essence. And I think that is absolutely one of the most powerful vocations there is. That's what I do now, Though. Yes, Yes. You know, My my hospice training, Which is about transition, Change and loss, Is exactly what I do with people who are coming out later in life because they are going there is a life before and the life after. They're going through ways of thinking about things, Changing how they think about things. They are often leaving behind a cult, A carefully cultivated identity. That they have worked really hard on for years and years and years. And I know all their stories and one of the things that I really love to do for people is to validate their stories because there are patterns and there are things that happen when people are dying. That and when people are coming out later in life and when people are making any major life transition that are very similar there's the the thing is is that This applies to death, Too. We live in our comfort zones. We like our comfort zones. Sometimes they can be incredibly dysfunctional. And so when we want to make a great change in our life, The first thing that happens is fear. It gives us all kinds of reasons why we can't or shouldn't do something or how we're not smart enough We're not brave enough. Like, You know, I can't do this. I can't do this and then one of the things because Our brains were made for survival, And so every time we want to make a change to our comfort zone, Our brain is going, No, Abort, Abort, Abort. You can't do that. The saber-tooth tiger is going to eat you. You can't do that. And so we become very, Very frightened. And what I find that happens is that when people are able to move out of the you know, Move through the fear zone and move into the growth and learning zone, It is phenomenal because they will go back into their comfort zone, But each time they go back into their comfort zone, They have been changed a little bit. And so when people are dying, And when they know they're dying, Oftentimes they're terrified. They're terrified, Especially those who've never, You know, There's a whole swath of population that never thinks about their death, Refuses to talk about it, You know, And that's just denial. And the thing is, Is so when we're all faced with death, Which we will all be faced with death, That's the only thing, That's the only constant, We're all born, We all die. And when we're faced with that, We have a lot of fear. And then as time goes on, We're able to oftentimes. . . Reconcile the fear and that's really the main role of the everybody who works in hospice you know and sometimes the reason another reason why there's you know the chaplain, The social worker, The nurse, The aide, Is that sometimes I'm not gonna connect with somebody, And that's okay. But you know that aide that comes in there three or four times a week and takes care of you at the most basic level? She, It's usually she, Sometimes a he, They're the ones that hear the stories. They're the ones that get to witness. And so I think it's really important in hospice that we have different people coming in to see the patient. Chaplain doesn't mean I'm, I'm very good at connecting it with people, But sometimes I just don't, And that's okay. But that aide who is taking care of you, She might be the person you can talk to about all this stuff. And they're so, A lot of times the aides and nurses are so empathetic and so compassionate that, You know, They're perfect for the patient. Yeah, You know what I find really remarkable about you is that you seem to have such an ease with liminal spaces. And so, You know, Here you are in your hospice work with people who are in this world but also beginning to enter the next world. The work you're doing now, Here you are doing this work. Ushering people from one reality or through a doorway. Into a reality where they can be themselves and maybe love themselves for who they are. And so I think you're really, It's like an incredible gift that you have. Oh, Well, Thank you. I don't, I mean, This is just how I've lived, But we all need somebody that understands and can take care of, Like is okay with the stories you tell. We're all okay. We all need somebody like that. And I've had people like that in my life. That can sit with me in places so my okay so sometimes people become People become religious leaders or religious workers for all different reasons, And some of them really healthy, Really healthy, And some of them not so healthy, As we have seen with religious leaders that do some really bad things. I have always viewed, So in my own faith, I always think of Simon of Cyrene who helped Jesus carry the cross. And what I do, My role in this life is help you carry your burden. For a little while. I am also the way I am built. I'm okay having really intense relationships with people and then having them move on. You know, I've had to learn boundaries over the years. I've had to learn that we're not friends. You know, And that's taken me a long time to learn that, And I've made mistakes over and over again around that. And so I have gotten to the point now where that I know this is my professional role. To walk with whoever needs me to walk with them in that particular time. And that our relationship will probably only last a year or two. And then they will move on. But I now see it as a job well done. That I got them through, They're ready to be on their own, And it's okay. For me too, Which is good. And that's it. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Reverend Anne Marie. Now, Please, If you do like what you hear on whatever platform you use, If you could leave a rating or write a little review, I'd be so grateful. Those ratings and reviews make me so happy and they mean so very much. Thank you for listening. And here's my one request. Your heart. Remember there's always a chance to pivot and create something new and then make your world even more beautiful as well as the worlds of everyone around you. So be like Reverend Anne-Marie and learn to pivot. Create something new, Forge a new path, And then go out and change the world. Yeah, Have you noticed that like watching the New York Knicks win the have you followed that at all? I have yes Yeah, And they won the NBA and New York is so excited. I feel like our country is really craving joy Oh, Yes. I mean I saw it especially when NASA the Artemis. Oh, Yeah People were so excited about it. And I think one of the things that's happened over the last decade We haven't had a lot of joy. Yeah, We've had a lot of negativity and anger And so I think we're hungry for joy. And so it's been really delightful. And that, By the way, That shot that won the third game was a miracle. You're so funny.