Hi,
Everybody,
And welcome back to the podcast that solely exists to remind you how magical and mysterious and even miraculous this world can be.
And the miracle this week is my guest,
Reverend Anne-Marie Zanzal,
Who,
After graduating from Yale Divinity School with her Master's of Divinity,
Worked as a hospice chaplain for 12 years.
She's an author.
Speaker.
She's a podcast host,
And she's also a coming out coach.
And we talk about all this in great detail,
As you'll hear if you listen to the longer form interview.
And then after the outro,
There's an Easter egg of additional information and more conversation,
Which tells a little bit more about the work that Reverend Anne Marie does.
And then there's some more fun little nuggets in there that I think you'll enjoy.
All right,
That's enough of the intro.
Let's get into my conversation with Reverend Anne Marie.
Occasionally you'll see somebody's spirit leave their bodies and they look like gargoyles.
It's really,
Really interesting.
Like they just like,
They look ugly.
Most people look beautiful,
They look peaceful,
But occasionally there's some really like,
You know,
Just like images that I'll never get out of my head.
I've had that happen numerous times with dementia patients,
Especially with song,
Because song is often something that we remember,
Especially early songs.
So I remember once I had this 99-year-old lady,
Hadn't spoken at all,
And they had a little note up in the nursing home that she was a part of her church choir back then,
So I started singing Amazing Grace with her,
And I had seen her for a year,
And nothing,
You know,
And she joined me and sang with me.
And then she disappeared again.
It's almost like they have consciousness for a moment or two,
And then they leave.
And it's such a gift to have that happen.
That's happened a lot to me in hospice,
Especially because I used to sing a lot with people and people remember songs.
And also,
Too,
A lot of times people will remember like things from childhood and stuff like that more,
Because when you have dementia,
Remember the old cassette tapes?
It erases from the most recent thing.
So like that's why,
For example,
Sometimes youngest children will be forgotten before older children.
Sometimes first wives,
Second wives will be all of a sudden being called by the first wife's name because that tape has erased.
And so it's really,
That is a miracle when somebody,
You know,
Comes to and you get to talk to them.
I also have another story somebody A man,
I actually heard this from another hospice chaplain,
A man had very devotedly taken care of his wife for years as she laid in the fetal position in her bed for years and years and years.
And right before she died,
She woke up,
She looked at him and said,
Thank you for taking such good care of me all this time.
And then she left.
I just think that's amazing.
And it gives you goose chills and makes you realize how much we just don't know.
I'd like to talk a little bit about meeting my wife.
So I was in the process of coming out.
And my therapist said to me,
Emery,
When you start dating,
What kind of woman are you looking for?
And I said,
Well,
I'm looking for somebody who's been out for a while,
Because I know there's a lot that I don't know about the LGBTQ community.
I'm looking for somebody who doesn't have kids,
Because I have four,
And that's a lot,
And I didn't want to combine families.
I knew my capacity for that.
And then I said,
I would like somebody who has a healthy respect for religion,
Because at that time I was working as a minister.
So,
You know,
They didn't have to be religious because I don't care about that,
But they have to be respectful of what I do.
And she messaged me three days later.
For the first time.
And we were in a Facebook group together and she messaged me.
And of course,
Like a lot of women,
When they're first starting to think about dating women,
I immediately put her in the friend zone.
But what's really interesting is she noticed me first and she always talks about this because this group was a group of women coming out later in life.
And it really helped me be able to do that because community changes everything,
You know.
And so I was in that group.
She's a long time out lesbian.
She's been out since 1980s,
But she and her partner of 15 years had recently broken up.
And so when this woman from Nashville,
Tennessee formed this group,
She said,
Hey,
Does anybody want to help?
Because I know that there's a lot that these women don't know,
And we need people from the community that know a little bit more and stuff like that.
And so my wife,
Tonda,
Said,
I'll do it.
And so they were planning some sort of event,
And I was still so nervous and so new,
And it was like six months away,
But she was helping with like planning Airbnbs and stuff.
And she asked,
Is anybody okay sharing bedrooms,
Right?
And I said,
Oh,
I don't care.
Thinking,
I don't even know if I'll be doing this thing.
And she looked me up.
She was like,
I,
You know,
She goes,
Oh my God,
She's a minister.
She went to Yale Divinity School.
You know,
She got these four gorgeous kids behind her.
Like what could,
What could that,
Well,
How could hard that would be?
And,
And so she reached out to me and I immediately put her in the friend zone and,
But at the same time.
She reached out to the woman that started the group and said,
Anne-Marie said that I could put her anywhere.
Is it okay if I put her in my bed?
And the woman who founded the group said,
Well,
You two are going to have to work that one out.
And what's amazing to me,
And I always joke that my wife gave me the crash course on being a lesbian,
And I'm not talking about sex.
What I'm talking about is when my internalized homophobia would show up.
She would always question it and like sort of give me a gentle tap and stuff like that.
So I truly believe.
That I met her when I did because I was supposed to do this work,
Which is now working with people coming out later in life with a ministerial lens.
And because the universe didn't want me to be like worrying about my dating life for five years.
You know,
And I have,
She's been incredibly supportive of me and my work as well.
So that to me was like really.
Like,
Unbelievable.
I wasn't,
You know,
I wasn't,
And to be very clear,
At that point in my journey,
I wasn't looking to date,
I wasn't looking to have a romance,
Nothing,
You know,
And we didn't have one until like six months later,
But she first reached out three days after I gave her the criteria and she met every single one of those.
And that's it.
I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Reverend Anne Marie.
Now,
Please,
If you do like what you hear on whatever platform you use,
If you could leave a rating or write a little review,
I'd be so grateful.
Those ratings and reviews make me so happy and they mean so very much.
Thank you for listening.
And here's my one request.
Be like Reverend Anne Marie.
Remember that there is always a second chapter of life or a third or a fourth.
And just because you're one thing or you're doing one job or you're passionate about this vocation,
It doesn't mean that later on or even while you're working in one job that you can't discover something else that captures your heart.
Remember there's always a chance to pivot and create something new,
And then make your world even more beautiful,
As well as the worlds of everyone around you.
So be like Reverend Anne Marie and learn to pivot.
Create something new,
Forge a new path,
And then go out and change the world.
That like watching the New York Knicks win the,
Have you followed that at all?
I have.
Yes.
Yeah.
And they won the NBA and New York is so excited.
I feel like our country is really craving joy.
Oh,
Yes.
I mean,
I saw it,
Especially when NASA,
The Artemis.
Oh my gosh.
People were so excited about it.
And I think one of the things that's happened over the last decade,
We haven't had a lot of joy.
Yeah,
We've had a lot of negativity and anger.
And so I think we're hungry for joy.
And so it's been really delightful.
And that,
By the way,
That shot that won the third game was a miracle.
