How To Give & Receive Good Feedback

Well-delivered and received feedback can make good projects truly great. Learning how to navigate the ego and deliver appropriate critiques with tact, timing is a skill that can be learnt. It can also be taught. If you are an artist, writer, entrepreneur, or creative, it is vital you know how to get those around to give you feedback that you can use. Self-awareness and timing are key: Do you need critique or cheerleading? What about when the project is complete?

Transcript

Welcome to The Abundance Mentality,

20-minute snippets to improve your health,

Wealth,

Spirituality and relationships.

I'm Zach.

And I'm Maria.

Cool,

Cool.

So we have an interesting book choice for this one.

It's called Shadows Beneath.

This is an anthology of short stories by Mary Robinette Kowal,

Dan Wells,

Howard Taylor and Brandon Sanderson.

So these are best-selling authors,

Amazing writers.

Now,

The reason I want to include this is because this anthology isn't just the fiction.

The fiction is incredible and amazing,

And if you're into fantasy and sci-fi or you're familiar with the authors,

Get it,

It's great.

But what this anthology does is they give you the fiction and then they break it down.

So they talk about the writing process.

And the process was they have a podcast together called Writing Excuses.

They brainstormed it,

Talked about it,

So you've got the transcripts of that and the links so you can listen to it.

Then they write it,

Then they talk about that writing process.

So the transcripts are in the book?

Yes.

Okay.

And then some of them have essays when they were talking about their writing process,

And then you've got takeaways from their writing groups.

And then you've got this final product where they show you the specific writings and the exact tweaks they made.

That sounds fascinating.

It's amazing.

It's very cool.

Look,

If you're a writer of any description,

I recommend it just for the writing goodness,

And you should actually read the book.

However,

If you're not a writer,

There's the takeaways.

You won't need to read the book unless you like the fiction,

But there's a bunch of takeaways that you can apply to greater life from this book.

Basically,

If you've got a creative project that you're working on – and by creativity I don't just mean I'm drawing art or I'm writing.

That could be starting a business.

That could be redecorating a house.

It could be learning how to dance.

It's like anything that remotely involves any sort of creativity.

Hopefully you do have.

Yeah,

Of course.

We're just assuming that.

It's a very spiritually good thing to have creativity in your life,

And it might be a wealth thing as well.

It touches a lot of bases.

So if you're into writing,

Read the book.

You'll get a lot of practical writing experience.

So I'm going to talk about it from my perspective as a writer,

But then we'll sort of consider it for all of those other aspects as well.

So the first thing I want to talk about – because the book really goes into this idea – you see their writing process.

And they're four different authors.

They've got way different styles.

But they're all friends as well.

They're all friends.

They talk about it.

They've got a podcast.

It's an amazing podcast – The Writing Excuses Podcast.

Once again,

If you're a writer,

Check it out.

But one of the key things that I became aware of is they've all got their unique style,

And they're experts.

So in order to create art – and I'm sort of learning this myself – is,

Like,

You have to work out how you work.

That's hard.

Oh,

It's so hard.

So for me,

Like,

I know that I like rituals.

I like routines.

I want to know that I've got this time on this day to work.

And,

You know,

You're in the house,

So I have to be like,

Hey,

Maria,

Like,

Door's closed.

Leave me alone.

I'm working now.

But it's not just that.

It's like,

Well,

What do I need to do beforehand to get myself writing?

Like,

A ritual to get you into it?

Yeah.

So for me,

It's like,

Okay,

I need to meditate.

I need to exercise.

I need to have coffee,

Right?

I need to have an idea in my mind,

A self-belief that I can do this.

That's great.

There's a whole bunch of things,

But their approach is different,

And yours will be too.

Once again,

You personally,

Maria,

Like,

You're getting into writing as well.

Yeah.

And,

You know,

You're the primary caregiver of the kids.

I go out of the house to work.

So your approach to writing will be different.

You might have to get it in snippets,

Right?

Yes.

I'm starting to realise I really have to look at small steps,

Small steps,

And be happy with the teeny-weeny step I've done today.

It's really hard because you get frustrated because you didn't get much done.

But I have to remember that over the week I might have had seven little snippets if I try every day,

Then that might be a whole actual blog post at the end of the week.

Exactly.

And it's about working out what works for you personality-wise and life-wise.

So there's a bit of that in there.

And I suppose the takeaway for everyone is,

Like,

Your approach will be unique to you.

Consider all of the different options.

Yeah.

You know,

Like,

If it worked for you,

We could block out a time and be like,

Okay,

Like,

You're going to write in this time for this time,

Right?

Yeah.

Maybe when the kids are at school,

You'll get that consistently.

Yeah.

It's worth considering the different approaches.

Absolutely.

And just for the creativity stuff,

I want to dig down on the feedback.

How to improve it.

So right now,

As of recording,

I'm writing a short story slash poetry collection called Kink.

And this is a BDSM-inspired sexuality sort of thing.

It's like basically better written erotica.

Yeah,

But I like that you came from this approach of,

Like,

Sex health.

Like,

The more we talk about it and the more open it is,

The healthier it is as well.

That's my approach to everything,

Right?

To everything,

Yeah.

But basically,

Like,

I want to practise writing good characters,

Good fiction,

And go deep down the fantasy path,

Right?

But I also,

For whatever reason,

Just – I know that I have to just lean into – once again,

It's my creativity processes.

Like,

What does the muse say to me?

Yeah.

And this just came.

But part of the writing process isn't just the writing,

It's the feedback.

Part of,

You know,

It's like working out.

It's like,

Well,

Is this working outside of my brain?

Because it seems to make sense,

But when I look back over it,

It's not so good.

So there's this idea of nurturing creativity,

Or nurturing the sapling,

So to speak.

Is that like the idea?

Nurturing the idea,

Letting it have a chance to be able to grow big enough to defend itself.

So if I come to you with an idea of a fantasy world – and once again,

Like,

You could say,

Like,

Hey,

I'm going to redecorate the house.

Or,

Hey,

I've got this cool business idea,

Right?

If I throw a business idea to you and I'm like,

Hey,

Maria,

I want to invent – I want to put in a bunch of vending machines that spit out protein shakes pre-made,

Right?

Can you make a canned coffee like Japan?

Right.

The point is,

Is I throw that idea out to you,

You could easily tear it to shreds.

Shut it down.

And people always complain that their parents did this when they were young and this kind of thing.

Everyone does it.

Right.

So if you – what I've learnt for myself is,

Is that if I have an idea,

I can't express it to you – because I use you,

Maria,

As the primary feedback mechanism,

At least initially.

I will go wider and get a broader understanding of – Yeah,

But – – beta reason that – yeah.

If I give it to you too quick,

I know myself,

The self-awareness that I'm quite – I care what people think a lot.

You're vulnerable in that space.

I'm vulnerable in that space.

I'm too empathetic.

It's an issue with,

Like,

Past trauma,

A whole variety of stuff.

It's not just you,

By the way.

Everyone feels like that.

Not everyone.

Some people don't do it.

Okay,

Yeah.

Not Arnold Schwarzenegger,

As I've learnt.

Well,

The point is,

Is that it's like,

I know that for me.

Yeah.

Right?

So the reason I'm saying this is I shared a story with you.

You had an emotional reaction to it and that sort of cut the legs out from some of the stuff that I was thinking I might do.

Right.

Because then I'm now thinking about your reaction to it and I'm like,

I'm worried about you and that's distracted me from my ability to write.

And that's not healthy for that sapling.

Not at all.

So now there's a risk that the rest of the saplings that could have come from – the basic thing is,

Is I wrote a short story that Maria found a bit too extreme down the BDSM part.

Down the sex health part.

And that's okay,

Right?

So what I've realised and what I recognise I should do is that I need to write all of the things for the book.

I think I'm done.

I need to go through the editing thing.

But what I should have done is just write them all and then give them to you all at once.

Because seeing that emotional reaction has now caused me to lose a bit of internal momentum.

Now,

I might be able to get it back.

I'm definitely going to do my best to try and all that stuff.

And I will.

But the point is,

Is there's a risk there.

But then I also know that I need cheerleading.

Because it's like,

Oh,

I just – when you finish a creative project – so I'm writing short stories in poetry.

It's like,

Oh,

I just did this amazing poem.

You feel good and you just want to share it.

It's like,

Oh,

Look at this thing I made.

But there's a risk of me now – and now I know that there's a risk of me causing an emotional reaction in you that you can't contain,

That causes things that's nothing to do with you,

It's not your fault,

But it can destroy the sapling that I'm trying to build here.

So now what long story short is,

Is I've realised that I need you to be a cheerleader initially until the saplings have grown strong enough to defend themselves.

And then I can give you to critique me.

Then you can be like,

Okay,

Well,

That was a bit too extreme down here.

How can we tone it up and give me the actual nuts and bolts critics?

And even knowing that that's the process is so good.

Do these four people that wrote this book,

Do they do that for each other?

Do they edit each other's stuff?

In this context,

They work,

But they also have their own writing groups and they've worked out ways to work with the people that they work with to get the best feedback.

I work with you a lot,

But we're still working out how to work best with each other.

I think one of the things is the difference between cheerleading and critiquing.

If you want a cheerleader in someone,

A cheerleader basically is like,

Says to you,

Great work,

Keep going,

You're doing well.

Yes.

Validation,

Validation.

And how useful is that?

So good.

So good,

Right?

However,

Just a straight cheerleader is useless because I could go off the deep end and you highlighted,

Like we talked about the thing that got that emotional reaction and we worked out the problem,

Right?

Which was going into the critiquing and ideas and we had this back and forth and like that story is going to be incredible.

But if you had have just cheerleading me,

It wouldn't be incredible.

It would be worthy of the emotional reaction that you had to it.

Yes.

And also I just want to say like sometimes cheerleading can be dangerous in the sense that if you get into a space where you become like,

I don't know,

Like getting the same yes,

Yes,

Yes all the time.

It's an echo chamber.

Yeah.

And then you're not growing anymore.

Not growing.

No.

So what I've learned here is this is like,

I'll think about an idea for a while before I commit to it or I might just do the idea because I just believe in just starting.

And then now what I've realised is,

And this is all just,

You know,

Recognising the to and fro and the response and what's happened,

Learning how to nurture my own creativity.

Next time,

Next time this happens,

Rather than giving you something chapter by chapter or story by story,

I will ask you repeatedly for cheerleading.

Yes.

Tell me I'm good.

Tell me to keep going.

Tell me that it's going to be amazing.

But it's good to know that's what you're looking for because then I know what to give you as well.

Exactly.

I need cheerleading.

And yeah,

It's like,

And you know,

Based on my past that I'm not producing terrible crap.

No,

Absolutely.

Of course.

And I believe in what you're making.

But there comes a time where I have to be like,

Okay,

Here you go.

Here's my.

.

.

Now I'm ready.

Now,

Prune my tree.

Okay.

It's a tree now.

It's a little bonsai that's sticking out and there's bits here.

I need you to shape it.

Yeah.

Because then it goes into the second thing.

And once again,

The book,

They talk about all their different ways to do it.

I know,

And I suppose like the problem with this from a podcast perspective is I can give my,

What I need and the book can give what they need,

But you'll have to consider what you need and it will be different to this.

You know what I'm saying?

So,

Once again,

It's pure self-awareness.

It's like,

Okay,

I know that I will need a detached time from my own work so I can look at it a bit more objectively.

And I know that I need you to gently tell me where we're wrong,

Where I'm wrong,

Where I need to improve,

Where I need to change.

I like that you gave me like a list of stuff to look for.

Yes.

And that was part of it as well.

I was like,

What do I even say about this stuff?

So I gave Maria a thing,

Once again,

For the fiction writing.

It's like,

Well,

Do the characters seem real?

Is there issues with continuity?

If there's times in the story,

Do the times seem legitimate?

And also almost like,

Was there any parts in the story where you felt like something was off,

Even if you didn't know what it was?

Was there like a feeling that was off?

Because I probably would have ignored that originally.

Sometimes you're reading something,

You feel a bit off,

But you're like,

Oh,

Well,

That's fine.

You just keep going.

But you were like,

I don't know,

Tell me that.

Why do you,

What are you feeling?

Now,

We recognise that you're not a fiction writer,

Right?

I'm not an editor either.

Exactly.

But I want to try and teach you the best way to give me feedback based on your abilities,

Your personality,

And what I need to hear from you.

And then we can tease it out.

And we have to have an undertone of like,

Like respect and believing in you.

I was just going to say that.

And like,

And this is the other thing,

Like,

It's one thing to ask for feedback,

But then I have to sit there and take it.

You know what I mean?

Yes,

That's the hard part.

And this,

And this is,

And this,

Well,

It's hard if it's a sapling.

Yes.

And that was the problem.

I gave it to you for feedback.

Too early.

But while I'm,

While it's growing,

Like what,

Too early.

Whereas if it's like,

Here's,

Here's the thing,

Let's make this as best possible.

I'm no longer so emotionally invested in it.

Yeah,

But then you've stilled yourself against the,

The raw kind of hurt.

It's not,

It's not me.

It's past me then.

Yes.

It's not current me who wrote it,

It's past me.

And that,

That guy like,

Yeah,

He's not as good as current me.

Current me can fix that guy's problems.

And the old guys,

Yeah.

I really struggle with all this because I've,

You know,

Started writing a little bit lately again.

I used to write and then I stopped for a while.

Anyway,

I'm almost like,

I almost like never want to show anybody,

You know,

I'm kind of down a different path to you how you're saying like,

Sometimes you're like,

Hey,

Everyone read this,

I read something.

I am most certainly like that.

I'm almost like the opposite.

I'm always,

I'm almost like,

I never want to tell anybody that I wrote anything.

So,

So you need more cheerleading then.

Yes,

Which you do give me.

100%.

But like getting something out and published,

As in put online,

Eyes on it.

And I've learned that now.

Like I need to just push through that and get it out there.

And I do get you to come and critique it,

But I'm almost like too excited for you to critique it because I know it's shit.

So I need you to like fix it.

Do you know what I mean?

Like that's what you're saying with,

Figure out what you need and ask for it.

Exactly.

Like if,

If,

If,

If I was with someone like you that struggles to,

Struggles with that sort of self-confidence,

It's like,

You need more cheerleading,

Keep going,

Get it done.

Like,

You know,

Like,

Like you need it,

You need,

You need a bit of both,

You know,

Because obviously like,

And the other thing is,

Is if you look at the critiquing and go like,

Yeah,

I'm going to make it better.

As in like,

You know,

When,

If I give it to you,

Like I feel like you give me that 10%,

You know,

Like I might get it to 90%,

But that's as good as I can get without you looking on it.

You know,

Beyond grammar,

Beyond spelling,

Beyond all that sort of stuff,

You're just like,

Hang on,

That doesn't quite make sense here.

And I can just add in,

Add in,

Add in,

Add in,

Add in.

This book,

Shadows Beneath,

It's interesting because they're masters at their craft and they're masters because they're good at it,

But it's not just the skill of writing.

Like you look at their first drafts and they're pretty not,

They're not bad.

Like,

I wish I could write to their first draft level.

But compared to what it ends up being,

It's hogwash.

You know,

It's,

It's like they've got seeds of brilliance in there.

And then through the,

The process of their own internal process of creating art and through their own process of getting feedback that they've worked at,

That they're refined.

Basically,

Yeah,

Basically it's like,

Work out a way to be able to hear feedback.

Yeah,

I really want to go more into that.

So like I do,

I do martial arts,

Right?

I will ask my coaches,

Like,

What do I need to work on?

And they'll be like,

Okay,

Well do this more or you're not moving enough.

Or like,

If I don't hear what they're saying,

I will stagnate.

And then it's also like,

You don't want to be crushed by it either.

True.

So you have to trust the people around you.

Now I trust my jiu-jitsu coach.

The main coach is literally,

You know,

Was a world champion back in the day and has been a black belt like as long as I've been alive.

It's ridiculous.

So like the level of knowledge this person has is incredible.

So I trust the knowledge base,

But I also have to steel myself because there's that bluntness of,

Yeah,

You're not doing it right,

You know?

And don't give up if someone gives you the feedback.

So how do you get that skill of taking feedback?

Well,

This is it.

This is the process.

So I recognised with you,

With this little thing that happened with this short story writing kink that I did something wrong.

I asked for feedback at the wrong time.

I showed you the sapling as opposed to the bonsai that needs to be pruned.

So it's about,

I mean,

Like there's a,

Like we could talk for hours on that and we're going to run out of time,

But it's like you've got to like have that self-belief,

Have the drive,

Have the motivation to keep going,

All of that sort of stuff.

So that if,

When we do make a mistake,

Because like that was a mistake in terms of giving me feedback.

I made the mistake of showing it to you too early when it was too emotionally invested.

But now I know.

So now it's like,

I have to have the discipline now to not show you as I'm going and just say,

Hey,

I just finished this thing.

Give me some cheerleading.

So what about in terms of applying it to life in general,

Like not everyone's writing?

How do I learn to take feedback as a person?

Well,

It's once again,

Look at the overall thing.

Like I'll apply it to jiu-jitsu once again.

If you lose,

Right,

You tap out.

You're basically saying like,

Hey,

If this was a real fight,

You would have killed me.

So it's like,

It's either you win or you learn.

So let's say we're fighting and I make you,

And I tap you out.

You can get all upset about that,

But that's a little bit of feedback.

And if you're on the mats and you go,

Hey,

Like how'd you actually do that?

So I train all the time and sometimes there's people that,

You know,

A lower rank than me that I should be able to beat and they beat me.

And I'm like,

What'd you do there?

And then I'm like,

Cool.

So then I know what they did and now I,

And they won't get me with it again.

So it's like,

Yeah,

That,

That,

That lower rank guy beat me once.

Yeah.

Right.

And if it beats,

If it beats me again,

I didn't learn that lesson enough,

Did I?

Yeah.

I feel like there's almost a space for this in general into personal life.

Like if I say something and you're like hurt by it and I'm thinking,

Why the hell would you be hurt by it?

I didn't say anything.

But then obviously the feedback is that you were hurt by it.

Yes.

You know,

The reality is,

Is that like you said something in a tone or the words or the context.

It's almost hurtful to me to think that somebody would be hurt by something when I didn't mean to hurt them.

And how do you take that feedback on,

You know,

There's a space there.

Drop your ego,

Be a bit humble.

We are,

We are coming up on time.

It's a very,

It's a very good point.

It's just,

I think the idea,

And once again,

This book,

The highlight is the self-awareness.

That whole process that you're describing there,

Work that out for yourself.

So in terms of like the take action is just consider your own personality for a second.

How thick is your skin?

Do you need more of a critique or do you need more of a cheerleading or do you need critique at some stages and cheerleading at other stages?

Like I know myself knowing that seeing that look on your face and that feeling that like they had the risk of killing the project because I'm quite vulnerable to that space of emotionality.

Other people wouldn't care.

They would just be like,

Just tell it to me straight.

I'm ready.

I'm ready.

Yeah.

And there can be groups.

Like if you've got a project and you might need more of this,

You can Google groups.

Of course.

Friendship groups,

Some,

You know,

Just,

But work out specifically what you need and when.

So take action.

Consider if you need a cheerleader or a critiquer or you will need both.

But when do you need them both?

Do you need 90% cheerleading all the time from everyone around you?

Okay.

And you can ask for that as well.

Ask.

Yeah.

Ask.

The thing is,

Is you can't be both.

I can't both cheerlead you and critique in the same moment.

In the same moment.

I can cheerlead you.

But then,

You know,

It's like when you cook,

It's like,

Like,

This is great.

Thank you.

But do you want to hear the actual critique as well?

Like it needs,

It needs a bit more kumen.

Like whatever,

Right?

And it's like,

I want both,

But I want you to be delicately doing both.

Exactly.

But it's,

But it's once again,

It's about working out yourself.

What do you need?

And then telling the other person.

So it's like,

It's like if you serve me food and I'm like,

This sucks.

Yeah.

That's not what I want to hear.

But you do want the feedback.

Yes.

So you'd be like,

Cool,

That's great.

But also great job that you cooked.

Yeah.

So,

So it's working about working out yourself.

So take,

Take action.

Consider,

Do you need a critique or a cheerleader and in what quantities and when?

And just,

And then start just talking and telling people that.

And asking people.

Right?

Yeah.

Cool.

Cool.

We'll get onto reading another book and you can take action.

Yeah.

Cheers.

Cheers.