Relativity & The Self (What is Now? Podcast)

How does the experience of time relate to our sense of self? Saqib and Charles discuss this question and more through an unplanned interpersonal exploration of the present moment. Each session begins with one minute of silence followed by the aforementioned impromptu exploration and ends with a short guided practice based on the themes of the session. We hope you enjoy it!

Transcript

Welcome to the What Is Now experience.

We begin with one minute of silence,

And then explore whatever arises.

So please join us for this one minute of doing nothing.

We begin with one minute of silence.

We begin with one minute of silence.

That was a nice period of silence for me.

What happened in that silence?

It was kind of funny,

I guess,

Several things happened,

And then that quickly led into formulating how I would share about those things with you.

Then there was an experience of just dropping them all,

And like another one would pop up,

And then dropping it.

And again and again,

And something that feels good about just totally dropping the formulation of something,

Which I guess what I'm saying now is still that way,

To a certain extent.

But there was,

I don't know how to describe it,

But it felt relieving of weight,

I think,

Just to notice the momentum quickly build up of planning something,

And then,

Which could have led to a whole momentum of a conversation.

Because if I started talking about a certain thing that I thought of to talk about,

Which had to do with the bell at the beginning,

Then that could have led to this experience being something very different than what it is now and is going to be.

So yeah,

Something kind of maybe playful and relieving about the just dropping.

Yeah,

I think it's funny that you mentioned the bell because in my experience also,

It was the bell that was very dominant today.

Because to just to give a context to the listener,

So usually Charles is the one who,

You know,

Rings the bell for the silence for the one minute silence.

And this time it was I who was doing it.

And I was doing it for the first time with a new app.

So I didn't know actually how to do it.

And I kept anticipating during this entire silence period that,

You know,

Will the bell go off after one minute or not.

And I was in this doubt,

But there was this constant coming back to the present moment and realizing,

Okay,

You know,

No,

It's this,

The silence is about being in the moment rather than anticipating.

I think there was a shared experience here.

That's one I can relate with too.

And I guess just for added context.

So the bell that you the listener hears is one that is separate from the one that we listen to because it just minimizes maybe any background noise that you might hear from us doing it.

So you have a kind of set one minute bell that's on the final recording,

Or the edited episode.

But so typically,

I'm the one that rings the bell for us.

And then it switched to Saka doing it today just because I was away from my phone.

But that is one that I empathize with,

Especially guiding quite a bit of like many meditations,

And you're sort of the one that's in control.

And that would be,

It would just kind of throw you off if the ending bell didn't ring.

Now,

Which it has,

That has happened a couple times where it hasn't rung.

And then I have to be like,

I have to think in my mind,

Has it gone longer than what like the time or not?

It feels like it's like way too long.

But then there'll be times where I'm thinking that and then the bell still rings.

So that makes me think of like responsibility,

How that might play into the thinking mind.

Yeah,

Yeah.

And how,

You know,

We start anticipating.

And I also noticed that when we are anticipating the time is usually longer,

I don't know how it is for you.

But for me,

Like this anticipation of that,

Whether the bell will go off or not,

Was it made that one minute duration longer for me.

Otherwise,

It would be like,

You know,

If I'm just in the moment and totally being here and now,

It is it is much shorter,

Because it's like,

Oh,

I'm enjoying this space so much,

You know,

One minute felt as if it was just a few seconds.

Hmm.

That's kind of interesting.

Because I guess there's maybe one way in which that might be desirable to make time feel longer.

I guess there's also some notion of kind of suffering involved there because you're really it's filled up with the worrying.

But it makes the time last longer.

Yeah.

And I'm just thinking maybe from like a survivalist standpoint,

We might be drawn to,

To,

To at least feel like we have more time.

So maybe there's something about thinking and planning and worrying.

That is like reinforced in a way that this is just the thought in this moment that I'm contemplating I'm wondering if it's making any sense,

But that it might.

We might be drawn to it because it expands the amount of time that we experience even if it makes that experience,

Not enjoyable and not pleasant or something.

It's also making it something that you don't like,

But at the same time it's making it feel longer.

Are you if you're following that or what you think about that?

No,

I'm totally following and I can think of,

You know that something that Albert Einstein said when you were mentioning this that he said that he was talking about relativity to I think,

At that time,

I don't remember who was the President of United States.

But he was,

He was trying to explain relativity to him.

And he,

He said that,

So the President asked that,

Okay,

What is relativity explained to me in simple terms.

And he said that relativity is,

You know,

When you are with your lover,

That,

You know,

You spend an entire night and that seems to be like just,

You know,

A few minutes.

But if you are standing on a hot,

On hot coal,

Then even one second will seem like eternity to you.

So,

So it's,

I think it's,

It brings,

Brings world down to relativity.

And also,

As you were saying that,

You know,

One thing I realized and maybe you,

You were indicating to that,

That how this life might seem to belong to us,

Because a lot of us tend to suffer in this life.

Because,

You know,

We,

We have that worry and anxiety and stress and this,

This seems to be an entire lifetime that we are going through.

But like the spiritual mystics have been saying since many ages that it is just a moment,

It is just a now.

So maybe,

You know,

For someone who is enlightened or someone who has experienced that enlightenment,

Maybe they just experienced this entire lifetime as a single moment and then that relativity comes in,

Maybe suffering increases our perception of time.

And if we are not suffering,

That maybe that reduces that and maybe then it is just one single moment now.

I've heard,

I don't remember the way he actually says it,

But there's this author,

Vladimir Nabokov,

Who describes life as like,

It's something like a flash of light in between two infinite darknesses or something like that,

Which you saying that made me think of that line.

What do you think about the notion of being drawn to the hot coals,

As you said it in that example from Einstein,

Of us maybe on some level being drawn to that,

Because it makes life feel longer,

Even though we're standing on hot coals the whole time,

To,

To have the experience of being like with a lover or something that makes time pass so quickly.

Maybe also makes you feel how fast life goes by.

And so then,

Yeah,

What do you think of the of us possibly being drawn to the hot coals to make it to draw it out?

Yeah.

Like drawn to suffering?

Yeah,

Maybe it's because you are absolutely right.

Your question is very valid because we do have this fear of survival.

And because maybe of this fear of survival,

And because we fear death,

It is a place of,

Even though there is suffering that we might be experiencing in this lifetime,

We see a tendency that a person is ready to suffer,

Rather than choosing to die.

Like this is the normal human tendency that we are okay to suffer rather than choosing to die.

And maybe because we are drawn to that suffering.

That's why we,

You know,

We tend to experience this as like a as a big lifetime these many years we,

We go through.

I'm not able to like put a finger to that exactly.

However,

It seems to be something which is like a concept that you know,

Maybe this idea of death and survival has something to do with it.

I'm not sure if you have a clarity on that.

It's like a hazy concept in my mind.

Well,

I was just thinking maybe to really accept life or to really live is,

Is to really embrace the reality of death.

It makes me think of that a line from Oscar Wilde,

I think.

To live is the rarest thing in the world,

Most merely exist,

That is all.

It makes me think of another line.

This is from Otto Rank,

Who is an existential psychologist,

I think,

And goes something like,

We reject the loan of life in order to avoid paying the debt of death.

So maybe to accept the loan that we're given is also to accept the debt that we have to pay,

But we have to pay it either way.

But if we if we reject the loan,

Maybe we can delude ourselves or just not think about that debt that's somewhere in like,

It's made me think of getting some bill and like,

Putting it in the trash and then you get another one or you just have it like filed away somewhere where you don't think about it.

And maybe you're racking up late fees the whole time,

But you just don't want to face it.

And then maybe the longer time goes on,

The more and more fees you get.

And that makes it even scarier to face paying that thing off.

So you just keep avoiding it.

Or maybe you run,

You go to another state or another country or whatever it might be,

But it's all been building up behind the whole time.

Yeah.

Which would make,

Just makes me think of a basic dichotomy of facing life and living.

And there's maybe a lot of pain and sadness associated with truly living versus rejecting that loan,

And maybe feeling like you have a long time.

And,

And that death is more of a concept than a reality.

It makes me curious,

Have you had experiences in your life where you would feel that time was running maybe faster for you in some,

You know,

We have those spans of life.

For example,

If someone,

If we ask someone,

Okay,

How was this last one year of pandemic?

And they would say that,

You know,

And I feel that,

Oh,

It was a long time,

You know,

It's as if it's going on for eternity.

But maybe someone has a different experience of that.

I've seen different reactions of people in regards to this.

So similarly,

Like what have,

Can you clearly segregate those instances in your life where you would say that okay,

Time was too fast for me or maybe it slowed down.

It's,

It's kind of interesting when you ask that,

Because what I think of maybe goes in a different direction,

Or maybe is contrasting with what we've,

How we've talked about it so far,

Because I'm thinking of so like this week for example,

It's,

I've been very busy,

And just had many tasks to address and to attend to,

And which has also led to like,

So,

And just for context,

And for the listener,

I'm in the midst of moving.

I'm in the midst of,

I'm in the midst of,

I'm in the midst of,

I'm in the midst of moving to a new home.

And so there are all these things that come with that and like unexpected things and very logistical things which are not my favorite sort of thing and so I'll have my regular work,

And I'll have a bunch of other stuff that I could be doing for the home and then I end up getting to bed later and waking up a little bit later just kind of throws everything off.

And I notice,

This time has felt very fast,

Like this,

This week for example just like has gone by super fast and I've had less time to just kind of sit,

Less time to read,

Less time to meditate,

To go for walks and,

But the time has gone by like very quickly.

And so now I'm recalling like my time spent at a monastery that this monastery that I go to every year,

And how the days feel so long.

Even if it's just for a week it might feel like a month,

And one day feels like this sort of huge experience.

And it's not filled up with,

With,

With busyness,

It's filled up with sitting for several periods of like an hour long meditation or some meal that's very that's silent,

And kind of goes on for a while,

Because of all the ritual involved,

Or working around the monastery these kind of very simple things.

But I,

My sense of time there is that it's very slow.

Or sometimes when I've done just like for a weekend,

Gone and done a silent couple days,

Like I've done that with my wife a few times which is awesome.

And that time feels very expansive.

So,

Tell me what you think but it seems almost like it contrasts with the way we've been talking about it so far that something that's more on the side of worrying and planning.

Maybe,

In some ways can go faster.

And then on the other side,

This,

Like,

Some,

An experience with a lot of presence,

It is can feel like.

So maybe,

And there may be two ways there because you said,

Like the awareness of a lifetime being one moment.

And then I guess there's potentially two sides of that where there's like,

There's one,

And then there's also infinite.

And it could just be two ways of looking at the same thing.

So to experience life as just a moment is also maybe to experience life as eternity or endless.

Then I think it's,

You know,

What comes to my mind then is that maybe it's not about,

It's not about like stress,

Anxiety or suffering,

Maybe it is more about awareness.

You know,

Where,

How our awareness is in that moment,

Like,

Let's say if we are,

We,

Let's say if we are very busy,

You know,

As you mentioned that you are doing some work and you are preparing for your house,

Then times seems to fly by for you.

But when you are there in the retreat,

You are totally present.

And you are,

Although you are,

You are not suffering at that,

I'm sure you're not suffering at that time,

You're enjoying that time.

Unless I'm in pain and during one of the meditations.

Yeah.

So,

So at that time,

Time seems to slow down for you,

You know,

So maybe it is then not about that,

But it is about awareness somehow that maybe if our awareness is not in the present.

I don't know,

You know,

I'm getting confused here because you know,

It seems to me,

Like,

How do you think the difference is there in the type of awareness?

So one thing I'm thinking of is one is more task oriented,

It's sort of,

There's more of a feeling of discrepancy between how things are right now,

And how I want them to be.

And I'm feeling like a task to be done,

And I'm feeling some desire to complete that task.

And,

And right now is not,

Is not where I want to be,

Versus this other thing where maybe there is something you're engaged in,

But there's much less focus on getting the thing done,

Completing it or moving on to the next thing.

Or I'm doing,

I'm engaged in this and that's it.

What I feel is maybe it is,

I don't know if that is true or not,

But maybe when we are totally in the moment,

Then time maybe flies by,

You know,

Because when even when you are like busy with,

With stuff,

You know,

Let's say you are working with stuff.

But what's happening there is you are actually not worrying about the future.

That's kind of a mindful practice for you.

Because let's say you,

You have to buy stuff,

You have to,

You know,

Arrange stuff,

You are moving,

Shifting things here from there.

What's happening is you are working,

But you are very much in the moment and working in the moment.

I don't know how you see it,

But this is how I'm able to see it.

Maybe that is the issue,

Because there is a way in which I might not be in the moment if I'm,

If I'm resisting what it is that I'm doing,

Or if I like,

If I don't really want to be doing this,

But I feel like I need to,

Got to do this tonight before dot dot dot,

Because there's that extra sort of narrative involved,

Versus if I can just totally engage with what I'm doing without that resistance.

Hmm.

So how,

How did you feel that resistance while working for your house?

It depends on what the things have been,

But there definitely have been times when I've felt that resistance or like,

Okay,

I got to set up this thing.

So that means I have to do a call with customer service.

And that's going to take a certain period of time,

You got to answer all these questions,

Probably there's going to be some issue that comes up.

And so that's all of my narrative resistance against what it is that I'm doing.

But then there are other things like,

Like,

I'm in the process of putting together some shelving.

And that's enjoyable.

I'm less,

Like,

Frustrated about getting to the end of it,

Or resisting what it is that I'm doing.

So it depends,

I think,

On the thing I'm engaged in.

Do you feel that the resistance where there is resistance,

The time seems to be longer.

So let's say you are,

You know,

On calls and you are,

There is this waitlist on the call and this,

You know,

Automatic voice is speaking to you.

At that time,

There is this,

The resistance to doing that.

And at the same time,

Do you feel that,

You know,

Maybe this call is for long duration?

And when will this person pick up the phone,

For example?

So maybe it is then a mixed,

It's not about,

It's like a mixture of events that is happening here.

So,

You know,

Let's say you are,

You are working for your house.

So there are moments of resistance,

But there are also moments of maybe just being in the moment and doing the work.

And then on the retreat as well,

You see that there are moments when you are totally into meditation,

Enjoying the moment,

But there are moments where you are experiencing maybe pain in your body,

Sitting in meditation.

So it's,

It's like,

You know,

It's,

It's then not about like labeling the entire meditation retreat as something blissful and,

You know,

This housework as,

You know,

Suffering,

But,

But maybe it's mixture of those events.

And even during these times,

You know,

It's,

It's,

It just depends upon how much resistance we have towards doing something that,

That maybe,

You know,

Changes that time duration.

In our mind.

So how,

How do you deal with the resistance?

How do you deal with resistance when you feel it?

I don't do it.

Mostly I would,

I would just try to just do things which,

Which I feel like doing unless until it gets to the point that it can take my life.

So for example,

Like doing the taxes or doing anything like,

You know,

Just for example,

Shifting stuff from here and there,

You know,

Now that I've moved to this new place.

So what I do is when,

When I have to do it,

You know,

Ultimately then there is no choice.

Then I would see,

I will ask this question to myself that why am I doing this?

And that question usually leads me to realizing that how important that task is.

So for example,

If I,

If I don't,

You know,

Pick up that stuff or move that stuff or,

You know,

Pack my suitcase,

Then I will not be able to go to this place where I so much want to go.

Ultimately,

You know,

Moving to this place,

I'm moving here because it will make me experience peace and ultimately it will lead to my wellbeing.

It will ultimately help me practice more of spirituality.

So I realized that actually doing this task that seems to be,

You know,

Not important.

It actually is very important when I ask this question that why am I doing this?

So you when you can directly connect it to the bigger thing that it's a part of.

Versus when,

When you're seeing it as a separate thing,

Might feel so much resistance toward it or just like even hatred towards this task.

But then to see its inherent connection with something bigger that is,

You're very,

That feels very connected to you,

Then becomes easier to engage in that thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How about you?

Something similar,

I'd say.

I guess the thing that's coming up for me is some sense of playfulness.

I want to say is the word that just notices my resistance.

And then,

And then I guess I have two options,

Which is,

Is this something that I've decided to do,

Or that I want to do ultimately,

Or am going to do?

Or do I not even need to do this or do I not even really want to do this?

And I guess that's the first part.

And then if the answer is yes,

Then I can have a little bit more playfulness with myself,

Or just the part that popped up that was resistant.

It's like,

This is really no different from anything else.

And this also,

You can also be just as aware of this as you might be sitting on the beach,

Or as you might be having a really nice meal.

Yeah.

Or,

Or whatever,

Even down to this interaction with someone customer service for turning my gas on.

In that interaction,

I'm with another human being.

And even if you know they might be on a script or something.

There is a way,

Like that's what I'm doing right then.

And maybe ultimately it's no different at all from anything else at the core.

Because it just comes down to my awareness of it in the moment.

And that's just what's filling up my awareness,

And I can return to it on a really basic level and see how this is all that it can be right now.

And so any resistance that I'm adding on to it is just taking away from my experience.

I don't need to judge that.

I can be playful with that.

But then I can open back up to it,

Or I can turn my phone off,

Or end the call or something,

But I don't do that.

I don't know if that makes sense but it's nice.

Remembering that now in this moment because there's the me that can get like slightly overwhelmed with all of these things as they build up.

But then there's always.

If you see things as like a teacher,

There's always the chance in whatever moment or whatever experience that you're having to open back up to it,

Like totally new.

Yeah,

I think we can actually,

If I want to label that as a term,

Let's say spirituality,

Then I feel that true spirituality will come in how we handle things that seem to be not spiritual to us.

You know,

So it makes me remind of something what Osho said,

And he said that it's very easy for monks to have that peace of mind,

You know,

Because they are retreating to the mountains,

And they are just meditating there anybody can do that.

But the test of your true spirituality is when you can be in the cities,

And you can be in the marketplace,

And then you can maintain that state of calm,

Calmness and peace within.

So that is the challenge.

That is the main thing.

And,

You know,

In such situations,

I would,

I think also remind me myself of this where,

You know that I'm experiencing this moment right now,

Maybe I'm,

It seems to be I'm doing some work which is,

Which I don't like.

But how,

What is my internal state in this situation?

So if I can manage to balance my internal state and experience this peace and calm in this situation as well,

That is the practice for me,

That is,

That is actually the practice we need to do,

You know,

Rather than avoiding that and running away from that.

Or seeing that as separate from the practice like this is outside of the realm of quote unquote mindfulness or something this is something else.

But,

But maybe everything,

Totally everything is.

And maybe even especially like what you're saying those things that you that you might not initially associate with this practice are especially this practice.

What's your experience of time been like here in this time we've been together today?

It feels as if we have just started with the conversation.

Yeah,

Same.

I wonder how what that's like for the listener and probably varies.

For you the listener I wonder what your experience of time has been like here with us because there's a way in which we're very engaged with each other.

My guess is that would be variable depending on the listener.

I'd be interested to know what that feels like to if they also,

Or if you also feel the how quickly,

Maybe this time feels like it's going or maybe if it feels longer in in that position.

Yeah,

You just mentioned about the listener that how the listener would be feeling and what is their,

You know,

Sense of perception of time,

And it reminded me of my school days,

You know,

In the in the in the classroom,

I remember that those lectures,

Which I really liked.

It would be like,

You know,

The time goes like this,

You know,

It's not even it feels like it was just a few minutes,

But those lectures where I'm not engaged with the teacher,

They seem like it and waiting for that bell to go off and to we go for us to go to that recess.

Just watching the clock.

Yeah,

Yeah.

So maybe then it is also about,

You know,

The level I think that's it's a lot related to our awareness and how engaged our awareness is something.

What do you feel?

Maybe,

Like in that scenario or potentially in this scenario,

As the student in that scenario or the listener in this scenario,

One's awareness of the other person's awareness,

Like your awareness of the teacher potentially if there's very present and you know that they're there with you and they're interested in what they're talking about and they're sort of honestly sharing it.

That might infect your awareness.

And then you interact with it,

But potentially if it's not coming from that place.

That could lead to the opposite.

I guess the question might be where that starts and ends,

It probably doesn't start or end anywhere,

Because it's probably just bouncing off of everyone and going back and forth,

Because the professor might be very aware and present.

But if the student is not interested in is not,

Then they might be blocked off to that awareness but maybe if that awareness is super powerful,

It might have the ability to like creep in through that layer in front of the person of unawareness and trigger something or open up the awareness in them.

And that makes me realize,

Now that you have mentioned it,

It makes me realize that how it is always the student who is blamed for not paying attention in the class.

But maybe here it is also about the skill of the teacher that how much they can engage the student with their awareness.

Maybe it is more about that because I do remember times where I would have no interest in the class and that would be very much proportional to how the teacher is feeling,

This awareness being enmeshed as you said.

But maybe when the energy of the teacher is different,

When the teacher is somehow able to engage the class and maybe they are good with their communication skills or maybe that's an interesting topic or maybe they are very concerned about the students and how much they learn.

Then I would always feel connected and that energy will be in tandem with the teacher and my intention will be fully on the teacher in that class and what the teacher is teaching.

So it really makes us question this entire idea of blaming the student that you know why are you not paying attention in the class,

Maybe we also need to look at the teacher.

How has your experience been regarding this student-teacher relationship?

I've been on both sides.

Pretty variable I would say.

I think up to a certain point,

There was just too much blockage coming from me that even the most powerful awareness probably wouldn't have gotten through because I just wasn't interested or just wasn't going to be listening.

But then I think something shifted where my awareness or openness sort of expanded a little bit.

And then there were a few that were able to infect my own or excite my own.

There was also I think quite a bit of the layers of protection had to do with my own anxiety,

Which would limit any sort of participation or engagement in class.

I became more and more interested and aware,

But I would still be the student who's like sitting in the back of the classroom and who probably people would assume doesn't do very well.

But I gradually would do really well and be really interested,

But the professor probably would have no idea that I was because of probably having a lot to do with my own anxiety or hesitation to say something in class or ask a question.

And then that gradually kind of expanded more and more,

But still very minimal unless,

And probably this is dependent on my own biases if I'm seeing something in the professor that I feel drawn to.

I remember a few in my doctoral program where I was participating all the time and it was interesting to notice that shift in me because a younger me would be amazed at the amount of participation where I became the person that was speaking up all the time in class.

And I was thinking of one professor in particular,

Where it was just like he just had a variety of different readings but it was mostly just discussion based,

And it was all exploration,

Which feels kind of like what we're doing now so maybe in some way for me this is motivated by that experience.

And in the class actually it was on the class was called interpersonal psychology and psychotherapy,

And we covered one topic called beneficial uncertainty,

And which is,

It's like a space where it's okay to be uncertain,

Which I think is relieving of a lot of maybe a feeling of anxiety about there being a right or wrong or.

Yeah,

A right or wrong essentially.

But to create a space where it's beneficial and safe to be in that uncertainty can really unlock,

Or at least for me in that case,

It just unlocked so much of my like curiosity and interest that had just been kind of bubbling within me over time.

And then was allowed to explode and,

Which I think has happened in a variety of different ways and is like,

Is very much so what's happening here with you,

Because you know in my life,

I'm known as a very quiet person.

And then if I'm with someone like you and then,

Or there could just be different people that I might come across and then I'm just like talking so much,

Which is just really interesting to notice,

But there's been that,

I guess that part that has been opened up.

And now latches on to any other players who are also playing in that way,

And gets very excited.

Can you put the finger to that specific thing that may be caused that shift or causes that shift like,

You know,

You mentioned that maybe in school,

School is it there was a hesitation,

But that hesitation went away when you were in,

You know,

In college and you were engaging with this professor so what is that thing specific thing for you that causes that shift.

It's probably a variety of things I mean one probably has to do with just more confidence in myself,

Or less fear,

Maybe around the consequences of saying something,

Maybe just more time and experience of like,

It just doesn't really matter that much.

And I,

And,

And I could say something and it might sound stupid.

And so what,

And like,

And really feeling the so what and embodying and believing the so what,

Like,

What if I was to say something and it made no sense or if even if everyone.

Of course this would never happen but even if everyone laughed at me in the room,

Still,

So what.

It wouldn't actually matter.

And I guess they're being.

And then it could beg the question of,

Well,

What leads to that.

And maybe that's a larger discussion but it seems like over time there's been a growing me under the surface,

That is less and less.

It can less and less be injured by the consequences that happen.

And so there might be a me that might be embarrassed on the surface or be afraid or something like that.

It seems like there's a developing inner me,

That would be totally fine,

No matter what happens,

Which enables a lot more play or risk taking,

Because risk taking feels like it's more on the surface.

And there's a,

There's this deeper me that is just impenetrable and can't be harmed.

Really.

I think this is a very important question,

Although we can do like an entire,

You know,

Another episode on this,

But I think this is a very important question for me as well and I was asking you this question because I realized that it is also a lot of time about the other person,

How the other person makes you feel and I think this is a very important aspect of social anxiety as well that I face,

In which,

You know,

Maybe if there is a group or there is.

It will be very difficult for me to connect with that group because usually it's about,

Let's say if I'm with a person and you know,

Let's say you are the person here so I can feel that connection with you because I know that the energy I feel the energy I feel the energy of receptiveness.

I know that whatever I will be say will not be judged in a certain way.

That doesn't happen with the group and that brings me to the question that why am I so dependent on external circumstances,

Or you know those people who would make me feel comfortable,

Why can I not just be comfortable saying anything or doing anything,

No matter what,

Irrespective of the other person or the situation or environment.

Yeah,

That's really interesting.

My hope is that that comes up in a future conversation to explore because I can really resonate with that.

Yeah,

And something that I've been sort of trying to figure out for myself for a while because there are group situations where I'm much,

Although there are some where I'm not.

That's where I'm sensing that there are at least several other sort of players involved with this same kind of energy or whatever it is,

I'd have to like reflect on it more.

But often I become a shell of myself.

And in some way I'm accepting of that,

Like that's okay.

Like for example,

Me and my wife are after we're done here are going to go to a small gathering a pizza party,

Which would be nice.

But I,

And this would be something that I'd be very resistant to some time ago because they're all strangers to me they're her co workers.

I'm now much more open to it but it's more along the lines of I'm just accepting of myself being a quiet person sometimes in these contexts,

Makes her feel uncomfortable sometimes and I think she wishes that I would be more extroverted which I get.

But I am currently in a place of just like,

I'll say something if I feel like it and if not,

That's okay too and it's also okay if someone else may or may not feel awkward about me not saying something or being quiet.

But it also would feel really nice to say whatever or just be weird or feel totally free.

Maybe that's what it is.

Because I don't really feel that way in those situations.

Thank you.

And I think one of the,

There was a hidden answer in one of the things that you said previously about this idea of me.

When we have this sense of me in such situations,

Then we maybe also have the sense that it is me who will be judged,

It is me who will be.

There is a separate me in this situation but if we can somehow let go of that idea and consider it as oneness with the group so there is no worry about this self judgment because then we are all one in that situation and this separate me will not be judged.

Yeah.

It brings me back to the relief that I was mentioning of just dropping.

Like in that minute,

The thoughts that I had or the thought about the bell or the planning,

Like all of that is sort of the momentum of me building up,

And then just totally dropping back to just this and that that can be totally done in a group context but maybe that's one that really intensifies that feeling of me of a self and here's the potential for judgment and or whatever it might be.

And especially that's why in conversations where when we totally lose that sense of self,

There is this natural flow of energy.

For example,

In a group of friends who are very close,

They would,

Because they maybe they drop this sense of self and they experience this oneness,

There is this natural flow of humor,

There is this you can say anything and not worry about any judgment.

Hmm.

That's an interesting thing.

I think that's a this is a great learning for me and I think for you as well here because we do experience this and maybe we can contemplate on this you know further at some point of time and see that how maybe we can let go of this.

Sounds good and going back to how we mentioned everything is an opportunity for practice.

I have a little potential practice right after we finish here that I can look forward to and just see what it's like.

And have more.

It's tough to because there's the dynamic of analyzing and removing myself from the situation like what's this like and how is it that I'm engaging how do I feel at the same time that all of that is me thinking about it.

So it's like another subtle way in which the me can take over because it's interested in gathering data about this situation.

So maybe I'll notice that and drop it to if I want to.

Great,

Great.

So I think,

Then let's go into practice.

Yeah,

Let's do that.

Great.

So,

We will end this session with a short meditation,

And I would request the listener to be in the comfortable posture,

Whatever it is for you.

And maybe for this meditation you can close your eyes.

And then you can gradually bring your awareness to your breath.

Okay.

And then maybe contemplate a bit on the sense of time.

How do you experience time.

Maybe if you can segregate those durations,

Those seasons in your life,

Those different parts of your life,

Where you experienced time moving in a certain way.

Maybe some year,

Some month of your life seemed to be really fast.

Maybe there was a time when time slowed down.

What is that for you?

What are those different time experiences?

And maybe also contemplate on what made that different.

What is that factor that made time relative,

That made time run fast or slow?

And then observe,

How are you experiencing time now in this very moment?

Is it fast?

Is it slow?

How is that for you?

And then gradually can bring your awareness back to the presence of your body in your surroundings.

And in your own time,

You can come out of the meditation.

Thanks for that.

Thank you.

Thanks everyone.

See you again soon.

See you.

See you.