Mind Is Movement (What Is Now? Podcast)

What moves: the subject or the object? Saqib and Charles explore the paradoxical nature of "mind" as both noun and verb. Each of these sessions begins with one minute of silence followed by an unplanned interpersonal exploration of the present moment and finishes with a short guided meditation based on the themes of the session.

Transcript

Welcome to the What Is Now experience.

We begin with one minute of silence,

And then explore whatever arises.

So please join us for this one minute of doing nothing.

We begin with one minute of silence.

How would you describe the mind?

I would say,

Everything that is in existence,

Everything that is manifest,

In the sense that I am not able to segregate between thoughts,

Emotions,

And the physical aspect of it.

For me,

Like it feels as if everything is a part of mind in the sense that,

You know,

This what we see as the external world also is kind of a projection of that.

So maybe that is also a part of the mind.

The emotions are also basically kind of,

You know,

A thought precedes an emotion.

So an emotion is also a mind.

It's kind of like a very broad term for me.

Just made me think of that little story.

I think it's a Zen story where there's the two people that are arguing about the flag that they see.

Are you familiar with this one?

No.

They see a flag and it's blowing in the wind.

One is saying that the wind is moving,

And the other one is saying that the flag is moving.

And then this old person comes upon them and says the mind is moving.

Interesting.

Reason I asked that question is just because in the midst of that period of silence,

I was just noticing how unstable,

I don't know if that's the right word,

Just like some,

I just cannot pin down at all what's happening.

When I,

For example,

When I close my eyes and just sit in silence and try to become aware of what awareness is like,

Like a little,

It was,

I was imagining how someone might represent it in a work of art or something.

Just the scene of what's going on in my present experience when I'm simply closing my eyes and becoming aware of this thing,

But it's like little hits of words,

Little flashes of visual stimulation,

Then movement into something that's more intentional.

I might catch a word and then take that and start thinking about it.

And then that feels like something different.

Like I might start thinking about,

You know,

Hear something,

See something,

And then start thinking about it.

And I'm going to say this to Saket after we're done,

Which is a little bit of a different space than when I'm just sitting there and watching it all.

When I'm in that space of just watching it,

It's this sort of swirling,

Totally ungraspable thing that I just,

That I cannot pin down at all.

I was just noticing how unstable it is to me.

So maybe that's what the monk meant when he said that the mind is moving,

Maybe movement is the mind.

It just is movement.

Like there's nothing stable there.

It's this constant movement thing.

I was thinking that too.

It doesn't feel like there's any place that is firm within here.

It's just flowing,

Buzzing.

But the question is arises is then what is firm?

What is firm?

So subjectively there's a,

So when I described starting to think,

So there's a place where just stuff is buzzing,

Moving little blips of a word here and there.

And then I catch one and I start thinking about it.

That feels more firm to me when I get in there.

It's like I've moved from this place of no gravity.

And then I grab something and shift into,

I shift out of that and I start walking on a path with this little word and I feel a lot more stable.

And then it's almost like all the other stuff is gone while I'm just focused on this particular word and abstracting it into a thought pattern and preparing to talk about it there.

I feel like I've landed on ground in a way.

And I feel that way here now.

It's like there's something kind of stable and firm that we're connecting on.

But as soon as I kind of step away from this path or even notice the path,

It's like the gravity loosens and I kind of,

I find myself moving back into something that is much less stable.

I don't know if any of that is making sense.

So yes,

It is.

And what you said,

So it feels like stability,

But the question is,

Is it really stability?

That's the question.

Is it in the sense that yes,

We are still on that topic talking about the mind,

For example.

So that is what seems stable.

But within that topic,

We have like come up with so many notions about what the mind can be and how it is moving and how it is from.

So there is instability within the stability.

So and this topic will also go this,

We will start talking about something else after maybe some time.

So the question is that maybe nothing is stable in that sense,

You know,

Nothing is firm in that sense.

Maybe because it is all moving,

Then maybe it is a part of mind.

Now,

The question that I was asking was in the sense that is there,

If mind is movement,

Let's take this hypothesis,

If mind is the movement.

So is there something beyond the mind which is not moving or is that also moving?

So what we call,

For example,

You know,

Consciousness,

Soul or whatever awareness,

Which is kind of beyond the mind,

Is that moving or is that stable?

Yeah,

I wonder.

Sometimes like unspeakable.

Like is,

If mind is movement,

It reminds me of the,

I think it's a Lao Tzu line that all truth is paradoxical in nature.

Because there you're just if we're going by the rules of grammar,

Well,

Movement is a noun too,

But it's describing like a verb action.

And you're saying mind,

Noun,

Is movement,

This sort of opposite of tangible thing.

So maybe it is that way,

But it can't conform to our thinking mind logical rules.

So it's almost impossible for us to grasp the possibility for there to be something that is stable and moving at the same time.

That makes me think of energy and physics.

Because then I was thinking like,

Here's this,

I have a phone in my hand and this feels firm,

Stable,

Or like I can look at my hand and touch it.

And that feels like something solid relative to when I'm experiencing my quote unquote mind.

But maybe that mind experience is because so these are things that are made of mass,

But they're made up of all these fine atoms and all the way down to something that is just pure movement.

And so maybe they are the same ultimately,

But they're different forms of that same basic thing that maybe at its purest form is this just kind of pulsing mind experience.

And maybe similarly,

Even with I wonder if a thought like there's potentially some mass to a thought that is heavier or however you might describe it relative to just being in that open plane space,

Like when I'm in the open plane.

And then I move into grabbing one of these things and starting to think about it and formulating a thought pattern or connecting it to a habitual thought or a part of my narrative story that it's like gaining weight and gaining some element of stability,

But in reality,

It's just it's a manifestation of this basic constantly moving energy.

Yeah,

I think this brings back to you know,

What I felt initially and what I said that you know,

That everything is mind,

You know,

Whatever the body and everything.

So I think I can totally resonate with what you're saying in that sense,

Because,

You know,

If everything is even this,

You know,

The way you said it that the hand or this your phone,

You know,

These are also this seems to be a firm object,

But at the subatomic level,

Maybe,

You know,

At the quantum level,

It is it is just moving vibration.

So you know,

That is kind of a mind that is also a nature of the mind.

So that is also maybe mine.

So yeah,

Yeah,

Brings,

You know,

Kind of brings us back to the same point.

So going back,

What was your silent experience like?

Everything you mentioned was was in my experience was visual visuals.

I don't know if you had the same experience,

But I think maybe,

So there are two experiences that we had that I had one was the visuals where,

You know,

Maybe we had a discussion on this previously in one of the previous podcast sessions about imagination and closing,

You know,

What maybe what you call that as active imagination or something when you close your eyes,

And you see visuals.

So I think,

Since that session,

My focus on these visuals have increased,

You know,

They have turned into more,

Like,

Very vivid patterns,

Fractals,

And,

You know,

Certain images popping up.

One was that the other was this feeling of,

You know,

Yeah,

It was a curiosity,

It was a curious thought.

So just before we started the session,

And you know,

Before talking to you,

I was wearing this beanie head cap.

So during the during when I was while I was doing the meditation,

I felt I'm wearing it.

There was this energy around my head that I thought,

I don't remember wearing it for this session.

So why does it feel that I have it on my head?

And then I realized it is that lingering of energy from my previous experience of wearing it.

How does that happen?

You know,

I was trying to understand the mechanics of it.

Like I'm not wearing my beanie right now.

I was wearing it like maybe one hour ago,

But still I have that feeling of wearing it.

What is that?

Where does it where does it come from?

Like,

It might seem to be a like,

You know,

Very small thing in that sense.

But I think it's,

I feel it's a it's an interesting question to ask.

It is interesting.

Do you feel that at times?

Yeah,

I do.

It also it makes me think of maybe to a certain extreme,

Like a phantom limb,

Where someone who has lost a limb might still have a sensation at some point of having that arm or that hand or something like that.

It makes me think too of the opposite where I don't know how this happens,

If this happens for you,

But the way that I position my hands in,

In meditation,

I have my thumb and out and then I wrap my right hand around my thumb and then I close my left hand on top of it,

Place it in my lap.

And inevitably,

In meditation,

It feels as if I don't have hands.

Like the sensation of my hands is gone,

Which which maybe this is my ego or something,

But there's something I enjoy about that.

It feels almost like a sign of something good that can let go of that too.

But it's just kind of a cool feeling.

But there,

I wonder what's happening there.

Feels maybe similar,

But a different manifestation of the same kind of phenomena where the feeling vanishes momentarily.

But then so easily,

I could either move my hands and feel it again,

Or I can just internally become aware of the hands in that position and that I feel them again.

We often get on the topic of energy and sensation.

This is very fascinating.

And I can still feel that,

You know,

As if I'm wearing it on my head right now,

But I'm not wearing it.

What does it feel like?

It feels as if I'm wearing my beanie right now,

You know,

I can feel some energy on my ears here.

As if there's a skullcap,

There's something pushing on my head.

But it's not there,

You know.

But like it's strange,

Where is it coming from?

I guess one thing I think of is like,

Could it be some form of contraction or pressure that was left by the mass of your beanie that is gradually sort of unfolding on a very micro level back to its original place?

That's one thought that I have.

But the thing is that that pressure is not there anymore,

But the feeling of the pressure is there.

Maybe what you're saying,

It seems like,

You know,

The maybe those subtle molecules or atoms in on my head,

They got kind of disturbed by,

You know,

By me wearing this cap,

And now they're kind of realigning and I can feel that energy on my head.

What's it like when you become aware of the sensation?

It's as if it's still there,

The beanie.

And it's interesting how you mentioned that about your prosthetic arm,

This feeling.

Maybe again,

This has to do with,

You know,

Maybe it makes us,

It has to do something which it ties into the discussion we had about the mind,

In the sense that,

You know,

I was reading this.

I think it was a book by Joe Dispenza and he mentioned that they did an experiment in which they just made people,

You know,

They had two groups in this experiment.

One group was made to actually do some dumbbells for a few days.

The other group was just made to visualize that they are doing the dumbbells.

And you know,

The group who did the dumbbells,

They developed,

They improved their muscle strength by a few inches.

They developed,

You know,

That muscle,

Even the group who was just doing the visualizations,

They developed those muscles equally.

Yes.

So this is a study.

Now,

Isn't this fascinating?

Like this brings in the mind in the sense that what we are perceiving in the mind,

If the perception is very strong,

Maybe that starts happening in the physical world.

It makes me think of the term manifestation.

Yeah.

Which I'm not super familiar with in terms of any sort of particular practice.

Is it something you have familiarity with?

To my understanding is just that,

You know,

What is there inside us gets created outside.

It's just about time,

You know,

So like manifestation is,

You know,

Like the myth is that beings that are like,

You know,

Extra dimensional or higher beings or,

You know,

Maybe in those states when we are,

You know,

In that state of,

You know,

In Buddhism called the Bardo state where we are not in body,

You know,

Manifestation is like something like instant in the sense that you think of something,

You feel something and that suddenly is created in front of you.

For example,

You think of an elephant and boom,

Suddenly an elephant appears in front of you.

But in our case,

You know,

Because we have so many fears.

So we have developed this mechanism that there is a separation from time.

So whatever we think or feel ideally should have been manifested in that instant,

But just because we created a mechanism of time,

It gets manifested later on,

It comes into creation later on.

So whatever you are feeling inside or thinking,

It is getting created in the outer world,

But it is coming,

You see it after some time.

So basically manifestation to my understanding is,

You know,

The evidence of what you feel inside,

You see that evidence outside in the external world.

So would there be some way of transcending those barriers or the time that you described the,

I guess the possibility of intentionally manifesting something and then it arises?

Maybe I'm not sure,

But maybe belief because we believe that we cannot do that.

So we cannot do that.

So if you genuinely,

And I guess that would,

That would be the key word because you can't fake genuine feeling.

Like I could try as much as I could right now to genuinely believe that I could make an elephant manifest on my backyard,

But there would,

I wouldn't genuinely believe that I could do that.

But if I did genuinely believe it,

Then it would appear.

I'm reminded of the autobiography of a Yogi.

It seemed like that was something that was happening throughout the story of his life.

He's different guru figures,

Just sort of,

You know,

Manifesting themselves in some place or just all this stuff.

And yeah,

Interesting that word you use,

Belief,

That maybe that would be the key there is that those people actually believe this to be true.

And that it is true.

It's more than psychosis to potentially someone experiencing a reality that is real to them,

That,

That others can't experience as real because they don't believe it.

Yeah,

Absolutely.

And in fact,

That is not only as a part of psychosis,

But that's also a part of some certain cultures and traditions,

For example,

Shamanism,

You know,

What a shaman,

The realm of spirits,

The realm of,

You know,

All seeing all these dragons and all these creatures,

It is as real to them as what we call reality is,

You know,

There's no difference between that.

So their belief is so strong in that,

That they experience that,

You know,

It happens in their perception.

It happens in their,

In their reality.

So yeah.

So how does one get to the point where they believe?

I think more than belief is,

Is about,

It's about a sense of knowing in the sense that belief is again somewhere related to the mind,

Wherein,

You know,

It's a thought,

Okay,

I believe in this,

But unknowing is more of being state.

So maybe when we connect to those deeper levels of being or awareness or consciousness,

Whatever we call it,

Or soul,

Whatever we call it,

We get to a sense of clear knowing that.

I wonder if we get to that place,

We're also moving outside of the thinking,

Quote unquote,

Ego mind.

And in that place,

There would be no desire to manifest an elephant on my backyard,

That it's more of a,

Like an ego based thing,

Or like a desire to get rich or these things that maybe the ego would get really frustrated with.

Why can't I manifest them into being?

But if I move into that other knowing place,

Like it would be outside of that part of me that desires those things.

And those things don't matter at all in that other place.

So they wouldn't,

Nothing would happen.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Maybe,

Maybe this,

This is how creation is in the sense that maybe this is how we create our world around us,

You know,

Where we,

We are experiencing this reality,

But we are experiencing this reality because we believe in it,

Right?

We,

We,

There is a sense of knowing that.

What do you feel about this?

Can you say that again?

So what I'm saying is that,

You know,

What we are talking about that,

You know,

We can create this elephant,

You know,

Instantly if we have that sense of belief and knowing,

Right?

What I'm saying is maybe we are already doing that.

Maybe this,

This world that we experience all around us,

It is just a manifestation of what we are believing.

That is just happening.

Yeah.

That's sort of,

I was thinking that too,

It makes me think of the idea of aligning yourself with the universe,

But maybe in a way that you're just tapping into what's already happening all the time.

And then in that place,

It is as if you're manifesting everything,

But it's simply because you've aligned yourself with this basic knowing.

It's not that you've like developed an ability to manifest things.

You've just gotten out of your way and connected with what's already been happening all the time and was already going to happen.

This brings us to,

You know,

What is the belief,

For example,

Of these,

You know,

As I mentioned,

As an example,

The shamanic culture is that they believe that because we have this strong belief in the,

In the social conditioning,

The way we are told about the world,

That we experience the reality in this way that we experience it.

But if we believe something else,

If we got to the state of,

You know,

Maybe believing in what they,

What shamans believe,

Then we would start experiencing a different reality.

So maybe what we experience in our external world boils down to what we believe in.

Do you think that it's possible?

Seems certainly that it is possible,

But it doesn't necessarily seem that way for me to break down what you believe in one system.

So like the ideals of society or the conditioning that you've been given to break that down and see through it,

And then to believe in a different one.

There's something that seems maybe,

I don't know what the word is,

But that like to break down one could make it impossible to then adhere to another.

Because it would then just be seen as it's another form of this thing that I had before.

Because it feels that way to me.

And I would,

There's almost,

There's like,

There's the me that was more,

That had more of a grasp of the sort of previous conditioning.

And that it,

That is now sort of seeing through that.

And we kind of desire or wish for there to be something,

But almost that that seems impossible to have now via seeing through one form of like concepts and that any other one would similarly be something added on top of quote unquote reality.

So why do you feel that it might be impossible to do that?

Because,

Well,

Maybe it would depend on the definition or how we were defining one of those things.

It seems that those would inevitably be made up of certain assumptions.

And then other assumptions are built up on top of those assumptions.

And then you create this sort of system of concepts and all that stuff that potentially can be broken down just by like seeing through all those layers of assumptions that are just added on top of unspoken experience.

What I'm thinking about is,

By the way,

Your screen just froze and I'm seeing a very frozen version of it.

Can you still hear me?

I can hear your voice.

Yeah,

But your screen is frozen to one expression.

I just moved into a state of nothingness.

Yeah.

And this is interesting to me because,

You know,

This is a new way of interacting with you as if I'm speaking with your mannequin.

Okay.

So what I was thinking of is that how does a person,

And I think because you have a background in this and you might be able to get some understanding here,

That how does a person,

For example,

Who is schizophrenic,

Sees that,

You know,

For,

For maybe a schizophrenic person,

It's not impossible to manifest what they believe in.

Maybe,

You know,

For example,

They have this strong belief that this person is there sitting next to me.

So the more stronger the belief,

The more they start experiencing that in their reality and they,

You know,

They start seeing that that person maybe,

You know,

Similarly,

You know,

If we start believing in anything that we see beyond what we are conditioned to believe in,

For example,

When we do those,

You know,

When we did those activities on active imagination,

Where we are closing the eyes and we are looking at these visuals by closing our eyes,

Maybe if we believe in that more and start focusing on that more,

Maybe that will become a reality.

What do you feel about this?

I can see that,

Yes,

Because that is something that would just be based on my lived experience,

Like I would have the,

The evidence in just what I'm seeing or feeling or hearing,

But it would it wouldn't be like a system of beliefs about that.

So when you say system of beliefs,

What do you mean by that?

Like it wouldn't be a new way of thinking about things like,

Like an ism.

You know,

I now think in according to these terms and these concepts,

But it would just be moving into the reality of that vision or in that moment.

Hmm.

It actually,

You know,

Can be a process of,

As you,

As you said,

You know,

Maybe what we can call it is like maybe deconditioning in the sense that what we are told to believe and what we strongly believe in right now that can maybe kind of,

You know,

Break that strong belief and make us start experience something beyond that,

Beyond the things that we experience.

So,

You know,

For example,

An example that comes to my mind is,

You know,

The conditioning of language that we,

I think we spoke about in the previous sessions where,

You know,

If we,

If we introduce a new word for a new color,

Maybe we start seeing that color,

You know,

For example,

There is the study on the Himba tribe that there is no word for a blue color or either it is blue or it is green.

I think it is blue that there is no word for blue color in their tribe,

In their language.

So they don't see that in the,

In the reality,

They cannot perceive blue color.

So when they are shown two different,

You know,

A blue color and a green color,

They,

It seems that they are the same to them,

But we can differentiate because we have a word for blue.

Right.

So maybe if we start introducing,

Let's say more words into our vocabulary,

Maybe the experience of reality or,

You know,

What we call reality or those world around us starts becoming more expansive in that sense.

Totally.

I would imagine that it would.

It's fascinating,

Right?

Like how can,

How we can actually create new realities in that sense.

I think it brings back,

Brings us back to,

You know,

Maybe this feeling,

Maybe what spiritual mystics have been saying a lot of them that,

You know,

We are creators,

That we are creating this reality.

Everything is created by us.

How's it feel for you when I,

My video is frozen and I can see you.

Sort of an interesting dynamic.

Yeah.

It feels as if you are just looking at my hoodie right now.

And you are kind of focused on that.

Yeah.

This is a new experience for us today.

What do you think?

Do you want to leave it there for today?

Yeah.

I think we can wrap up and thank you so much to all the listeners.

Today we talked about some crazy stuff.

I believe it is crazy enough for you,

But do let us know if you have any ideas on this,

You know,

In the,

In the comments,

We would also love to know about your experience of all we talked about today.

Maybe we can leave this one without a practice.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They don't,

They don't all have to be that way.

Yeah.

I'm left with this.

Well,

Language is always so interesting to me,

But I'm particularly left with the idea of creating new words for things.

I mentioned to you before,

We have a,

My wife is pregnant now and like thinking of child names and optimally would like it to just sort of come out of nowhere and not be one that we've heard of before,

Or is a familiar one,

But just sort of arises.

And then a person's manifested out of that.

Yeah.

That's,

That's your creation.

Right.

That is a very literal sense of creation you have created,

You are creating something.

Yeah.

Congrats for that.

Yeah.

Thanks.

All right.

Well,

Thanks as always.

See you next time.

Thank you for joining us in the what is now experience.

We hope that you liked the episode.

If there were any insights or ideas arising for you as you were listening to our conversation,

Then you can share those ideas through your comments.

We would love to know stay tuned for the next episode.

Namaste.

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