Dreaming While Awake (What Is Now? podcast)

What is vision with eyes closed? Let's explore how the sense of internal sight might allow a peak into the unconscious while awake. Each of these sessions begins with one minute of silence followed by an unplanned interpersonal exploration of the present moment and finishes with a short guided meditation based on the themes of the session.

Transcript

Welcome to the What Is Now experience.

We begin with one minute of silence,

And then explore whatever arises.

So please join us for this one minute of doing nothing.

We begin with one minute of silence.

How was your experience today?

A variety of things.

Also just noticing how something happens where one of us ends up choosing to ask first how the other person's experience was,

Likely that totally changes the trajectory of wherever the rest of our conversation will go based on you asking,

And now I'm starting some momentum or the other way around.

And I can say for me,

Something I was noticing was like a some sort of visual texture to my visual experience with eyes closed,

Almost like leaves or something.

That's what was coming to my mind,

The texture of what I was seeing in front of me.

And it also reminded me of something that happened the other day which has happened several times where my eyes were kind of itchy,

And,

You know,

Went to rub them.

And while I was rubbing I was aware of my visual experience,

And it started to become very bizarre.

And it was like black and white,

Like a black and white checkerboard and all these wavy black and white shades of gray,

Sort of swirly things going on and then I kept my hands there for probably like five minutes,

And was just engaged in this fairly intense visual experience.

Maybe there's something not good for my eyes about doing that or like the pressure of that or something,

Something's going on there but it's something that I've noticed happened many times before but that was the longest I've ever stayed with it just keeping my eyes,

Slight bit of pressure,

My hands with a slight bit of pressure on my eyes and noticing the visual sensation that occurred,

It was pretty amazing.

So,

If you if you have to describe that,

That how amazing it was what would you say?

I would say,

I'm doing it right now.

It's not the same,

But it creates some sensation of light,

And it's actually intensifying.

And it's starting to swirl,

And it's like there's pockets of it's almost like I'm looking into a jewel or something.

And then there's,

There's all these,

Or a bug's eye,

And there's all these different little cells,

And a bunch of stuff happening within each of the cells.

I guess it's what's amazing about it is just the phenomena.

It's,

Where is this coming from?

Like what's happening?

Something that I,

Maybe there's a scientific explanation for what's going on,

But it's just this pretty intense experience almost like there's some sort of drug going on.

I'm wondering if,

You know,

Because this is something that also happened with me some time ago,

And I was observing this,

Like you did.

So I'm wondering if,

Like,

Our inspiration is coming from a similar source.

Because I read this,

About this in the red book by Kalyum,

And he was talking about,

Like how the way dreams are a projection of the unconscious,

You know,

With this is like kind of dreaming in the waking state,

Like when we when we close our eyes.

So,

You know,

Whatever we see on the screen of,

You know,

These eyelids that are closed.

And in the darkness,

The I think more this,

This projection of the unconscious starts with like the black and white image,

Rather than you know,

A colored image that we see in the dream.

But what I noticed was that,

And I think he was right about that,

That it was kind of a projection of my unconscious onto the screen.

You know,

Because,

Let's say if I'm thinking about something,

Let's say I'm,

You know,

Thinking of my partner or anybody else,

A person,

You know,

So what I see a figure as soon as I think and you know,

If you try this right now,

Maybe if you think about something and then you close your eyes,

It's probable that you kind of see that on the screen of your eyes.

Does that happen?

And for you,

Is it like you're actually seeing it in terms of a visual phenomena sort of on your,

On that dark screen?

Or is it some other experience of seeing where it's not the same as if,

For example,

You were in the dream and you saw this person in front of you or in real life where you see me in front of you?

I think it's in a dream,

It's more elaborate.

You know,

Kind of it's like,

You know,

The colors are there,

You know,

The details are there.

But in this case,

It is like a black and white,

You know,

The negative of a photograph that we have the black and white picture.

So if I'm thinking about a person and as soon as I'm closing my eyes,

What I see is an outline of that person,

But not the features of that person.

I'm seeing the outline of like a,

What looks like a space person to me.

And it starts out this,

This is another visual phenomena that happens to me sometimes,

Particularly in a meditative practice,

This will sometimes happen,

But I was just noticing I was seeing this sort of outline.

It seemed like a space person because the head was this circle and it seemed separate from the body.

In a way,

It was almost like a helmet,

I guess that's the visual that I got.

And then the head started to separate and vanished into the darkness above it.

And then it regenerated where it was before and then did it again in this sort of cycle.

And something I've noticed that happens to me sometimes and when I feel like I'm quote unquote deep in a meditative practice,

I'm not just thinking about wandering thoughts,

I'm more just really feeling that moment.

There's often this visual sensation,

It's kind of like rings of light that feel like they're emanating from,

It feels like from the back of my head,

And they're going to the front of my visual screen and then expanding out.

And it just keeps happening that this cycle of these rings that keep pulsing like that.

Have you ever experienced something like that?

Something similar,

You know,

You mentioned space man.

And that's interesting because I remember that the first time,

You know,

When I read this in the red book,

And I did this practice intentionally.

My first experience was it was as if I'm in front of an audience.

And they're like,

They're like somewhere around 50 people in the audience,

But these people are not like human beings,

They seem to be like extraterrestrial,

Because they had these like long,

You know,

These big eyes and in that visual,

I could actually see the features as well.

So,

You know,

They had big eyes and,

You know,

Round faces,

And small bodies.

So I was like,

And you know,

I was,

It was as if maybe,

You know,

It was maybe I was either it was a projection of my unconscious,

You know,

And most probably that was because I might be thinking about extraterrestrial beings,

You know,

Before that.

But my experience was that,

You know,

I am,

I'm like on a stage,

Or a podium in front of these about 50 beings that are observing me.

And,

You know,

It was it was it became really interactive in the sense that I was trying to show them that I'm not afraid.

And then they suddenly they,

You know,

And I started doing some like movements,

Trying to maybe,

You know,

Standing up straight and,

You know,

Trying to show them that I'm not afraid.

And these beings,

They started looking at each other suddenly as a as a,

As soon as I did those movements,

These beings started looking at each other.

So it became really intense.

And I realized that this experience is very,

Very similar to a dream experience.

You know,

And what I realized,

I don't know if you if you had that experience,

I realized,

The more you keep your eyes shut,

The more you focus on that,

Gradually,

This black and white experience turns into a full on,

You know,

Dream colorful,

And interactive experience.

I don't know if that happened to you.

No,

I don't.

I don't think so.

It sounds really interesting.

Is there a series of steps or a certain procedure that you were doing based on what you're reading in the red book?

No,

It was just what what he said was,

So he said that,

Okay,

So I think I don't remember what he said,

I think this was a part of active imagination.

He said that.

So what you do in this process is you close your eyes,

And you you look out,

You know,

You look towards your eyelids,

The closed eyelids as if you are actually looking out,

But you are not because your eyes are closed.

So when you do that,

You know,

As if your eyes,

You know,

You're looking out,

Your eyes are open,

But actually they're closed,

Then you will start seeing certain patterns,

You know,

On the screen of your eyelids,

And then you just observe them,

You just focus on them.

So what I realized was that the more I focused on them,

And the more I observed them,

They became more and more realistic,

Interactive.

Gradually,

They also started initially started with black and white,

And they gradually also start forming color and shapes and everything.

I'm really intrigued to try this.

I think the next time I sit down for meditation,

Or maybe just when I go to bed tonight.

What about what about trying it right now?

Let's try it.

Yes.

So let's do it.

Maybe we can do it as a you know,

Kind of a meditation.

And yet with the listener as well,

I hope,

You know,

The thing that we are doing is what we are doing is so just to repeat that,

We are closing our eyes.

And we are looking,

You know,

How do you describe that you we are actually looking towards our eyelids,

Which are closed.

And it's like,

We are observing the patterns,

As we close our eyes,

We are observing whatever comes up.

So this is just an experiment.

And you know,

However you you want to do it.

So let's do this.

There's one way that I describe it sometimes of just because it can be potentially confusing,

Like,

Well,

If my eyes are closed,

Then I can't see.

But a way I think of it is just experiencing vision,

Like the sense of vision with your eyes closed,

Just like,

You know,

You can you know,

You can turn your attention to any sense with your eyes closed,

You can turn to hearing,

Or you could turn to smell,

You could turn to touch or taste.

Even with your eyes closed,

You can shift all of your awareness to the experience of vision.

Maybe in that way.

But I think you probably talked about it this way,

Too,

That thinking is also like a sense.

And so that's one that we're probably attending to all the time.

But just like that,

We can turn the attention to this experience of vision with the eyes closed,

And you're,

You know,

You're seeing,

I guess,

The back of your eyelids.

But you can let go of that idea to just experience what it's like to see that the blind shut.

And maybe we can also,

Maybe,

You know,

The thoughts,

Maybe they are also presented on this vision,

You know,

On the screen,

The thoughts that we have,

And usually we don't see our thoughts,

Right?

We just think about them.

But maybe,

You know,

It's like,

Seeing the thoughts,

As you said,

You know,

The vision of the thoughts.

So maybe that is also possible.

Great.

So let's maybe do it for maybe a minute or two.

Okay.

What are you seeing?

I saw tunnels of various shapes.

So initially it was just shapes,

You know,

For example,

It was first like a circle,

Then a rectangle,

Then a pentagon,

Then an ellipse.

But then these shapes started forming like tunnels.

So you know,

Initially,

It was just like on a 2D plane,

But they started having depth and they change into tunnels.

I was seeing tunnels of different shapes,

Like circles,

Pentagon,

You know,

Hexagon.

And in the middle of that,

Like,

Occasionally,

There were like some faces coming up.

I don't recognize those faces.

But yeah,

I think they just a couple of faces that popped up in my vision.

How was it for you?

So cool little,

Like reservoir of creativity,

Too.

I could imagine that you and I were talking about art and,

Yeah,

Potentially painting or drawing,

Both of us wanting to be more skilled in those mediums.

I could imagine,

If I was really skilled and able to sort of represent something that I see that whole area,

It's so rich with creative content.

It's not like I'm contriving it or forcing it anyway.

I just can sit and look at the back of my eyelids and there'll be some sort of inspiration for creative expression within there.

I guess then it would be up to me to try to capture it,

Get out of the way in terms of my ego and express it in a way that's sort of true to the experience.

For me,

Something I was noticing was the more I stayed with it,

The more intense all the movement that is there was.

It was already there,

But I could just see it increasingly clearly.

Just all of these shapes,

Like you said,

And light and just this sort of movement that's everywhere.

Just made me think of the field of consciousness.

I think I've heard Alan Watts talk about it this way,

Like a field.

There are forms that emerge from the field and it seems like they're separate from the field,

But it's just one expression.

I've also heard it like a blanket that's covering everything.

Here you have the Eiffel Tower,

Here you have Sakib and they're just poking up from underneath this blanket.

It made me feel like I was in this maybe a more pure experience of that field,

Just all this buzzing,

Pulsing,

Intangible stuff.

Then it was interesting,

The interaction between my creative thinking mind,

My story mind,

My imagination and what I'm seeing.

You see something or I see something and then I can quickly create a story about what that is.

Whether or not that's what I'm seeing,

I'm interacting with it in some way.

I saw what seemed like in the distance,

This little figure.

For me,

It looked like a child.

That was the sort of narrative that I was creating about this being.

This little child way off in the distance,

All alone by themselves.

At first,

They seemed potentially,

I don't know if scared is the right word,

But just very small.

I don't know if weak is the right word either,

But certainly not strong.

They're just off in the corner somewhere.

Then it was like they moved up to the upper left of my visual field.

Then there was a light that was beaming out from them,

Where they were becoming this light.

When it's there,

The story that I'm creating is that they're actually very powerful and more of a teacher.

In the first part,

It's almost like the feeling I have is I would want to help that being in some way.

But then when it moved into this upper left and then became a ball of light,

It was more like they would be there to help me.

Which is potentially interesting with regard to stay on the topic of young.

In the book that I'm reading,

Man and His Symbols,

A lot of it has been about dream interpretation and dream work,

Dream analysis,

And all these different common themes within dreams.

One in particular is that the left side tends to indicate the unconscious and the right side tends to indicate conscious.

I'm just thinking of this now.

It was really in the center,

But then it moved into this left side,

Which potentially is indicating the unconscious.

He also talks about potential interactions with the capital S Self,

Which is like,

My guess is you could probably call it God or you could call it many other terms.

Whatever it might be.

This kind of deepest version of you that is much bigger than your ego self and is a part of you,

But might be way too much for you to even comprehend or interact with.

I was having some sense of that being a little sort of version of the self and then it moves up.

I just got a little glimpse of it in the upper left corner of the unconscious this late.

Yeah,

Just kind of piecing it all together.

It's really interesting the potential corollary or a connection between this kind of experience and the dream experience.

Maybe we're having some access to something like a similar plane.

I was also thinking of your experience of the vision you were describing and you might have come across this.

Another thing that it talks about in the book is that when there is some experience of you in a dream,

That is a representation of your conscious self.

And then any other creature or person or being in the dream,

All these other figures are representations of unconscious aspects of you.

Then whatever might happen might happen in the dream.

But that's a typical way of breaking it down or a way that they would see it in their line of thinking.

That there's the you that's sort of the main character of this experience.

And then these other quote unquote others that are actually representations of unconscious aspects of yourself,

Which is kind of interesting to think of in your visual of the alien figures and because it sounds like there was something maybe scary about them or potentially intimidating or threatening about them and then you were trying to sort of show them that you're not afraid of them.

Yeah,

I think you're absolutely right.

Because I can remember that,

You know,

Now as you are mentioning it,

I can see that I don't know if I'm,

It is in my conscious mind or if it is in my unconscious,

But what I can sense here is a fear of fear,

Like the fear of existence,

I would say the fear of kind of maybe,

You know,

This life is not in my control.

And there is someone there is someone else kind of,

You know,

Controlling this life,

Maybe like,

You know,

We are like the philosophy,

The deeper questions that where do we come from,

You know,

Where do we go and what is what is there?

What is God?

You know,

What is why are we even here?

I think the fear of waking up to a reality that is not pleasant.

You know,

Beyond beyond this,

Beyond the this life experience that we are having,

I think that is that is,

That has been there,

You know,

In my in my mind,

Because,

Like,

I kind of evaluate existence in both both terms.

So,

You know,

I like to be positive about things like that,

You know,

That everything is wonderful.

And that is my sense,

Because in deeper states of meditation,

I experience joy,

Experience bliss.

So,

And,

You know,

Or if I read about,

Like,

Let's say near death experiences or experiences of people beyond what we call the physical,

It gives a sense of hope and positivity and joy that,

You know,

There is a broader experience to ourselves.

But at the same time,

There is another part of it,

Which is like a fear,

You know,

Something like what we saw in the movie,

The Matrix,

That,

You know,

Neo wakes up to a reality that is painful,

That is,

Basically,

You know,

They are controlled by an advanced civilization or controlled by artificial intelligence.

In reality,

He was just in a simulation.

So I think it is that fear that got manifested into into that vision.

So I guess the thing that I'm hearing or maybe what I'm projecting is that those alien figures in your vision might represent this unpleasant reality,

Potentially like these other creatures that might have the real control over your existence.

Yeah,

I think I think it represents somewhere like the boat,

Like both both possibilities,

Because it was it was kind of a dilemma that,

You know,

I,

I was also afraid,

But I was at the same time,

I did not see any hostility from there and in the vision.

You know,

I didn't see that,

Okay,

I didn't see that I was like a lab rat or,

You know,

In a lab and they were kind of experimenting on me or,

You know,

Opening me up or controlling me or anything.

It was just like an audience that was observing me.

So what did you feel from them?

Or even just imagining it now?

What do you feel from that audience?

Are they told?

Are they interested in you?

Are they uninterested?

Very much interested.

So as I said,

As I,

You know,

I had this vision that I'm kind of waking up to that reality.

And I'm trying to tell them that I'm not afraid of you kind of and they,

They suddenly,

You know,

In my vision,

They start looking at each other,

As if they were very,

Very curious of what this creature is doing.

It was a funny experience.

Do you remember what kind of movements you were making?

It was,

It was funny.

It was very,

Very funny.

I was,

I was actually kind of,

You know,

Doing some sort of a dance,

Which was,

Which was just trying to show as if a child is trying to show,

You know,

Like flexing,

A child is flexing his muscles and doing all these things just to show that I'm strong.

So that was the kind of depiction and it was funny.

You know,

I remember that there was in the vision itself,

There was a sense of like,

Humor to it.

And,

And that made,

You know,

In the vision that made those beings whatever they were very curious of how,

You know,

What am I doing as if I'm like,

As if I'm an object of experiment that they're conducting.

Yeah.

What's it like potentially viewing that as,

As some sort of internal interaction that those might represent parts of you that are different from this conscious self?

Yeah.

Yeah,

That's right.

It feels that way.

It feels that way,

Yes.

So there's these like versions of you,

That they're a part of you,

But they're also sort of,

They're watching you.

And then there's a way of you standing up to them and saying,

I'm not afraid of you.

I wonder what happens next?

Like,

Do you continue to present something?

Or do you go out into the audience?

Do you leave?

Are they no longer interested?

Do they follow you?

Are now they are they now are they really interested in you?

This is a very interesting question,

Because,

You know,

Lately,

I had a realization that trying to be fearless is actually is actually a depiction of deep fear,

You know,

Which it's like a paradox that a person who tries,

What I realized,

And I realized it for myself,

That there was,

You know,

Till the point of time,

I always try to be fearless.

So I would be like,

Okay,

You know,

Whatever happens,

I will be fearless,

Even after go through pain in this life,

I'll be fearless.

But that is what I feel is kind of,

And this was the same thing,

You know,

I think this was the same thing playing out in that vision in which I was like,

Okay,

Even if I'm like,

You know,

Kind of controlled by a species that is advanced that then me,

I'm fearless.

But this fearlessness is,

Is actually a shows my deep fear,

You know,

That is inside me,

Because a person who wants to be fearless is actually telling how fearful he is,

But he is that like,

The fearlessness implies a feeling of fear that you're responding and reaction to?

Yes,

Yes.

And it's like kind of bypassing that fear and,

You know,

Just trying to avoid it by going in the opposite direction.

And,

You know,

It's,

It's like,

It's like a similar example of someone who has lack of self worth,

They would go in the opposite direction to to prove their worth,

Right?

Yeah,

Or narcissism.

So I think it's similar that someone who has deep fears,

Are going in the opposite direction of trying to show themselves as fearless.

It makes me think of the,

There's a term within Freudian defense mechanism,

Language,

Reaction formation.

You heard of that?

No.

It's just a similar thing where you,

You feel something,

I think the idea is that you feel it unconsciously.

But you feel it deeply and then you respond by reacting in the opposite way.

So maybe,

I think an example I think of is you have actually a really negative impression of someone.

And,

But there's something about that that feels really wrong to you.

On maybe some deep level.

And so you respond in the complete opposite way and you're really overly nice to them.

So it's this like compensation for something maybe that you feel guilty or ashamed of on some deep level.

Yeah,

Yeah.

And exactly that,

You know,

This thought,

This was the realization from this vision,

Because in this vision,

I was trying to show myself fearless.

And that showed my stupidity,

You know,

And I could as if I could as if,

Like,

Sense the,

You know,

What the what these,

These beings were thinking,

And they were like,

Oh,

This,

This poor little fellow is so is so fearful that he's trying to show that he's fearless.

That just made me think too of them,

Hypothetically being part of you,

And maybe,

Quote unquote,

They are totally aware that they're part of you,

Which would also kind of highlight the absurdity of the whole thing,

Because it would be like,

Oh,

He,

He's so afraid,

And he thinks he's different than us,

Which is just what's going on here.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

If only he knew that we were,

We're all part of the same thing.

Yeah.

It wouldn't make any sense to be afraid.

Yeah,

That's right.

Yeah,

I think then this fears also fear also depicts our sense of ego,

You know,

That the strong sense of ego and self that,

Okay,

You know,

As what Ramana Maharishi or Nisargadatta Maharaj say that if,

If we have this strong sense of I then,

Then you know,

We suffer,

But if there is no I then who is who is suffering,

You know,

There is no one to suffer actually.

So I think it's the same to the fears increase and you're correct about it,

Like,

The more sense of separation we feel from all these beings,

You know,

The more fearful you will be feeling.

Hmm.

Did I ever tell you about that one dream I had?

Also,

This has just been a,

I've enjoyed this exploration of whatever this world is,

This realm of dream and creativity and play.

I wonder what it's been like for the listener to,

Because it's certainly kind of outside of any sort of more straightforward discussion of philosophical topics.

It's much more kind of nebulous.

Yeah.

The attempt to explore unconscious stuff,

Which we do generally,

But this one feels a little bit different to me.

But there was a dream that I had not long ago.

Tell me if I've mentioned this to you in which I was working with a client.

One on one,

We were actually in the same room together.

Everything that I do now is virtual but in this dream we were next to each other and we weren't across from each other we were side by side.

Maybe it was because I was in the bed,

And my wife is there,

Something physical about that but for whatever reason in the dream I was working with a client there to the side of me on my left side.

And I was aware that the issue they were working with was like they felt like they were possessed by some sort of evil-ness.

And that's what they were coming to work on but they were also very hesitant to share the fullness of it with me,

Out of fear that they would be infecting me with that evil.

That they wanted to protect me from that but they were also coming to me to work on that.

Did I tell you about this?

No,

You didn't.

And so my response was like,

I was trying everything that I could to make the client feel safe enough to be able to share the whole thing.

Of course I understand if you really don't want to but I'm okay with you sharing all of it with me.

So they got to the point of opening up fully about this thing in a vulnerable way.

I don't remember any of the content of it but that was just like the feel of it.

There was this resistance and I sort of opened up the floor for it and then they were like,

Okay,

And then they shared it all with me and then I was infected by this quote unquote evil force.

And then I felt it take over my whole being and then I was literally shaking.

It was just this very intense energy sort of coursing through my whole body and it was like every muscle in my body was flexed and it was like a sort of convulsions.

And everything was fighting with me in some way.

And I remember in the dream,

I screamed,

Come on,

Like asking it to give me everything that it had.

And it just reached like a crescendo of that.

I don't know if you have this experience in dreams where you try to shout but you can't really make that much of a noise.

It's more of a whisper comes out but I was trying to just scream as loud as I could.

And I was trying to shout at my wife because she heard me,

Like,

She felt me shaking and she heard me trying to like yell something.

And so she woke me up.

That's where the dream came to an end and it's really stuck with me that experience.

I was also,

When I woke up,

Maybe egotistically I was proud of myself for the way I was responding to this thing.

And I'm coming to my mind now because we're talking about this sense of fear and responding as if I'm fearless because that's what I was trying to show in that moment.

But at the same time,

I was really terrified of this thing but I just made a conscious choice to be like,

I'm just going to go directly into this force,

Whatever it is,

And just give it everything that I have.

Maybe it'll destroy me but that's the choice that I'm making.

A fight,

I guess,

If you have flight or freeze.

I was fighting.

But yeah,

When you were talking about your experience with these creatures and the response to it being like,

I'm fearless,

It made me think of that.

And I wondered what other responses are there?

Is that one that is maybe not the best response or an immature response or whatever it might be?

Just the way you were talking about it,

Maybe reframe it a little bit in my mind because I still look back on it and I'm like,

That's cool that I chose to do that.

Was your response of fearlessness or was it of like,

How do I say it?

There are two,

But I can sense that there are two kinds of response in this situation.

One is of fearlessness,

Which is of like,

Oh,

It's like I am strong.

That is the part behind it.

Like I'm not afraid.

Yeah,

I'm not afraid.

But the other response is more of an open embrace,

Which is more love-based.

It's like,

Okay,

You and I are one,

Let's embrace each other.

It's more compassion in that.

So how was that for you when you had this experience?

It definitely felt more like the second one.

Embracing with compassion?

It was more embracing.

I don't know if compassion even felt available because,

But maybe it was there,

But I was feeling aggressive at the same time.

But it was a total embrace.

It was like letting go of any resistance to this thing.

But maybe it didn't feel like I had the capacity to just be like,

You know,

Please welcome.

Thank you.

Because I felt so much anger,

Hostility,

Hate coming from this thing to me.

Or just to everything.

Like it was,

You know,

Doing that to the client or maybe anything that this thing engaged with.

It would just have so much what would feel like hate and hostility.

But I guess in that moment,

I don't feel like I was the former where I was like,

I'm not afraid of you.

There's no big deal.

It was definitely like I was afraid and scared,

But I was also not resisting.

I was welcoming.

Maybe that's kind of like what the come on was.

It's like,

Yeah,

Give me everything.

Okay.

You know,

This reminds me of the conversation between Terrence McKenna and Baba Ram Dass that,

You know,

We recently listened to,

You and I.

And in this,

Like Baba Ram Dass tells a koan of this person,

You know,

Of this person who is like very angry with,

I don't remember the exact story.

But it was like he was very angry with this monk and he wanted to kill this monk.

And,

You know,

He took a sword and he went to this monk.

And then he told this monk that you don't know who I am.

I am that person who will put a sword through you.

But then this monk said,

Oh,

You don't know who I am.

I'm the person who will accept this sword inside me.

You know,

I will take this sword from you and I will let you kill me.

I'm that person.

So what it seems is now this monk is like having an open embrace with love and compassion that,

You know,

The feeling is that you,

You and I,

We are one.

And it's okay if you kill me.

You know,

It's more of a love kind of a response.

But the other response to that would be is,

You know,

Something that I had in my vision is,

Oh,

You know,

Come on.

Or,

Oh,

Just let's,

You know,

I'm not afraid of you,

You know,

Or come on and let's fight.

You know,

It's something like that.

So maybe to the person with the sword,

It's like that sword wouldn't hurt me.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Exactly.

Yeah.

It reminds me of another Zen story.

I probably mentioned this one before.

You probably heard it where the there's like a warrior or knight figure who hears of this one Zen monk.

And some master teacher wants to go learn from the monk.

And so in order to be the best warrior that he can be,

So he finds this monk and he comes to him and I guess asks him.

I can't remember the details,

But it's basically just asking him for his advice.

Like,

You know,

What can I do to know the way?

And the Zen master just starts to make fun of him.

He's like,

You,

You're a warrior?

How could anyone be intimidated by you?

Or how could you save anyone or do anything?

And the warrior keeps getting more and more angry.

And,

Oh no,

I'm remembering.

I can't remember the beginning now,

But I'm just going to keep going and we'll see what happens.

And he just keeps making fun of him.

And then warrior keeps getting angry and angry to the point where the warrior pulls his sword out and like has it ready to chop off the Zen master's head.

And then the master is like,

Here open the gates of hell.

And the warrior gets the message and he puts the sword back into his sheath and kind of sits down in front of the master with humility,

I think.

And then the master is like,

Here open the gates of heaven.

Just remembering that imagery.

I think maybe the initial part of that story is that the warrior comes and maybe asks something about heaven.

What is it?

What are heaven and hell?

That's his way of showing him in that moment.

Just like this.

Yeah,

Don't have to add anything more to that.

Nice,

Nice.

I'm curious to know that when you do you experience this,

That when you close your eyes at times,

You know,

I'll go back to the discussion that we were having about dreams and visions.

Do you experience when we close our eyes?

Do you do you at times remember the dream that you had?

Yes.

Isn't it interesting?

It's very interesting.

If I'm hearing you right,

It would just be and this can happen with eyes closed or open.

Just at some point,

I'll remember an experience from a dream that was maybe the past night or some time ago.

It'll just come up out of nowhere.

Yeah,

Because it usually happens with me when either I close my eyes for like maybe two,

Three minutes at least.

Or,

You know,

Sometimes even if it is like kind of a long blink,

You know,

It occurs or what happens is,

You know,

If I'm sitting in my meditation,

Then I would kind of remember the entire dream.

Sometimes,

Even in my meditation,

The dream continues from the where,

From the point it stopped,

You know,

It kind of continues from there.

So,

You know,

It's kind of that makes me think of maybe,

You know,

Carl Jung was very right about how we can actually just by closing our eyes,

And you know,

Projecting that,

You know,

The practice that we did,

And seeing things on,

You know,

Focusing on our vision by closing our eyes can actually bring out the contents of the unconscious mind.

Because a lot of times what's happening is,

You know,

As we discussed this just now that we remember our dreams,

Maybe that dream is somewhere still in the head and it gets projected onto that,

You know,

Screen again,

When we close our eyes.

Interesting,

Maybe something to continue to experiment with,

And that can be maybe a helpful way of doing it is because,

Of course,

Probably when most of us close our eyes,

The thinking mind takes over.

But there is a way in which you can,

Just like anything else can be your object of attention,

Like the focus on the breath,

Which is maybe the most typical one,

It can be the experience of seeing,

And you can certainly do that with your eyes closed,

But you might have to kind of train yourself to be able to start to attend to the experience of vision with eyes closed.

And that can help maybe if you just find yourself still within what feels like the wandering mind,

You don't have an experience of seeing things,

But just really sending all of your awareness to the sensory experience of seeing with your eyes closed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's so interesting.

You know,

I think this is something I'm going to try today.

Do you want to maybe finish with a short practice again related to that,

The experience of seeing?

Sure,

Sure.

Let's do that.

Maybe we can once again,

A little bit this time,

Clear our mind and then do the same practice.

Yeah,

That sounds good.

Great.

So to the listener,

We are now in the last segment of our session today,

And we will do a short meditation similar to what we just did.

And you can get into your posture and for this particular meditation,

Because we are kind of using our vision with our eyes closed,

You can close your eyes.

And as you close your eyes,

You can maybe observe what do you see with your eyes closed.

Now,

Let's bring our awareness to our breath for some time.

Maybe you can observe the flow of your breath in and out of your body.

Or maybe you can place your awareness at your nostrils.

However you want to observe the breath.

And now let's again bring our awareness to the vision,

To what we see with our eyes closed.

And notice if there is a change or maybe there is a similar pattern.

Okay.

Okay.

And then gradually in your own time,

You can open your eyes and come out of the meditation.

How was it for you this time?

It was cool for me.

It was helpful too that you switched the attention to the breath and then came back.

I noticed that that,

For whatever reason,

Allowed me to deepen the focus on the vision or really stay with it.

And then it did sort of become this little dreamscape.

And it was kind of animated,

Almost like anime.

And it was interesting.

I was this little animated person,

Definitely a child,

But it was a child girl.

It was like a little girl with a backpack on,

And it felt like that was a representation of me in this dreamscape.

And just kind of walking along,

There's really tall grass that was flowing,

Almost as tall as me.

Blue sky.

And walking along.

And then there's this massive kind of troll figure that's standing with his arms on his hips.

And it's like,

Who goes there?

Kind of thing.

But in this situation,

The little girl with the backpack on just kind of noticed it in passing and just walked under his legs.

And that was the whole vision.

Wow.

That was something.

Yeah.

How about for you?

Yeah.

Same.

Like,

It was a similar,

Like not the visual,

Not similar visual,

But a similar experience in the sense that initially the shapes that I could see were like just the ordinary,

You know,

The shapes that I initially saw,

Like the circles and the pentagon and all that.

But after,

You know,

After focusing on the breath and then going back to the vision,

The vision became more vivid.

So it was as if I'm,

I could see creatures which were like,

Similar to creatures on Earth,

But had a more fictional kind of a thing to them,

You know,

Which we see in like,

Maybe,

You know,

In mythology,

Or in movies,

You know,

Like dragons and big,

Big scorpions.

And,

You know,

The devil with horns and all these kinds of creatures.

So they became more vivid,

But it didn't make like,

There wasn't a,

Like a story to it.

Like,

You know,

There was a story to your vision,

But it was just having these visions of these different things.

But it became more vivid for sure after the breath practice.

So that's interesting,

You know,

A new learning for us.

Yeah,

So interesting and fun.

It could be cool to do potentially more of that in the future if it comes up.

Yeah,

And it is a kind of a nice meditation to do.

Yeah.

Well,

Great.

Thanks for guiding through that.

My pleasure.

And I'm so fascinated by this,

You know,

That how there is this entire world of art available to us.

That we can go into and derive so much out of that and maybe we can also get to know the conscious of our,

The contents of our unconscious when we focus on these very interesting.

Sounds good.

Maybe we'll explore it more.

Sure,

Sure.

Have a good day.

See you next time.

Thank you for joining us in the What Is Now?

Experience.

We hope that you liked the episode.

If there were any insights or ideas arising for you as you were listening to our conversation,

Then you can share those ideas through your comments.

We would love to know.

Stay tuned for the next episode.

Namaste.