The One You Feed - Adreanna Limbach

Adreanna Limbach is a head-teacher at MNDFL Meditation Studios in New York City. Adreanna’s work has been featured in the New York Times, Women’s Health, Refinery 29, and Yoga Journal. Her new book is "Tea and Cake with Demons: A Buddhist Guide to Feeling Worthy." In this episode, Adreanna and Eric talk about how to be more skillful in the ways in which we relate to our “demons” – in other words, how we can go about befriending difficult feelings.

Transcript

Hello everyone,

I hope that you are staying safe and sane in these very challenging times.

And I also want to give a brief reminder of some of the things that we at The One You Feed are doing to try and be of support during this time.

And you can get details on all these things at oneyoufeed.

Net slash help.

First,

We are doing free weekly group coaching calls on Wednesdays at noon.

We had our first one this last Wednesday and it was wonderful and I will do it again for the next several weeks.

Details,

As I said,

On how to join that are at oneyoufeed.

Net slash help.

Secondly,

I am doing free coaching sessions for healthcare workers.

There's only a few spots remaining.

I've gotten a pretty overwhelming response to that and I'm working with a lot of people,

But there are still some opportunities.

So,

Free coaching sessions for healthcare workers and then also I am giving discounts and offering payment plans on all of the one-on-one coaching and spiritual habits program so that if you need some additional support during this time,

I'm trying to make it a little bit more affordable and a little bit easier to access.

And as I mentioned earlier,

Details on all these things are at oneyoufeed.

Net slash help.

And if you're not connected to us via email list or social media,

This is a great time to do it because we are using those channels to announce other things that we are doing to provide support in these times.

So,

You can join our email list and get links to all our social media off of that same page.

So,

I wish you the best in staying safe and sane.

Be good to yourself.

Be good to others.

All the things that we've talked about and learned about feeding our good wolf is especially important in these times and I'd encourage you to lean on those learnings,

Lean on those practices because we need them more than ever.

Thanks so much and let me know how we can help if you have other ideas that we've not thought of,

Please feel free to let us know.

Take care.

Bye.

Everything is fine.

I'm just going to tamp this down,

Pour a little bit of chocolate on top of it,

Maybe like some wine or some Netflix and you know what?

Now it's fine.

I don't feel it anymore.

I'm fine.

Welcome to The One You Feed.

Throughout time,

Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have.

Quotes like garbage in,

Garbage out or you are what you think ring true and yet for many of us,

Our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us.

We tend toward negativity,

Self-pity,

Jealousy or fear.

We see what we don't have instead of what we do.

We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit.

But it's not just about thinking.

Our actions matter.

It takes conscious,

Consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living.

This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction,

How they feed their good wolf.

Thanks for joining us.

Our guest on this episode is Adriana Limbach,

A head teacher at MNDFL Meditation Studios in New York City.

Adriana's work has been featured in The New York Times,

Women's Health,

Refinery29,

Yoga Journal and others.

Her name is Adriana Limbach.

Adriana is a founder and founder of The New York Times.

She is a great friend and friend of mine.

Her new book is Tea and Cake with Demons,

A Buddhist Guide to Feeling Worthy.

Hi Adriana.

Welcome to the show.

Eric,

Thank you so much for having me here.

It's a real treat.

Yeah,

I'm excited to have you on.

We're going to talk about your book called Tea and Cake with there is a grandfather who's talking with his granddaughter and he says,

In life there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle.

One is a good wolf,

Which represents things like kindness and bravery and love,

And the other is a bad wolf,

Which represents things like greed and hatred and fear.

And the granddaughter stops and she looks up at her grandfather and she says,

Well,

Grandfather,

Which one wins?

And the grandfather says,

The one you feed.

So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

That's a really great question.

You know,

I love the parable and I really love your podcast.

The parable actually brought me to your podcast.

It was recommended to me by a friend,

Maybe like a year and a half ago or so.

You know,

I think in the most basic sense,

The parable in my own life is a really great reminder of where my attention goes,

My finite attention.

And I think particularly working in the world of meditation,

Which it's funny to say that I work in meditation.

Like that's a thing now.

Right,

Right?

Yeah,

I really think a lot about attention and where we're placing our attention and just the power of our attention and how that really sort of dictates where our energy goes and where our focus goes and our momentum goes.

And so I think this particular parable is such a beautiful reminder that we actually have a lot of choice and agency over where our attention goes and the resulting consequences of that.

Yeah,

I love that.

We recently launched a new program,

It's called Spiritual Habits Program,

But one of the fundamental principles is really to be looking at,

As often as we can,

Where is our,

What is our intention and where is our attention?

And with those two things,

We're able to actually make pretty big transformations by just staying focused on,

And a lot of times it's like,

What do I intend to do with my attention?

Which is kind of what you're saying,

By actually being conscious about where I choose to put my attention,

I shape my experience.

Entirely,

Yeah.

So where I'd like to start with this is just to read a short section from your book and then talk about it.

And the reason I wanna do this is because one of the things that happens a lot is that listeners of the show will often say something to me along the lines of,

Well,

You have these people on the show and maybe you should have some ordinary people on.

Because they have this sense that if somebody's written a book or teaches meditation or does that,

That they've got this all figured out and they're somehow different than the rest of us.

And your book starts off very early by sort of laying that idea to waste.

And I just wanna read this because I think it's really important.

You said,

Confession,

This book was really difficult to write and when I say difficult,

I mean crying on the floor while eating a block of cheese and calling my mom kind of difficult.

It was tea and cake with my demons all day long.

And I just,

I really wanted to bring that out because I just loved how much you talked about,

How difficult doing this was.

And I think for a lot of people,

When we run into something difficult,

We think,

Well,

It's too hard,

I can't do it.

And this is a great example of you ran into that difficulty,

You dealt with it in a skillful way and on the other side of it,

There's this beautiful book.

Well,

Thank you.

Thank you for saying that it's a beautiful book.

I felt in the throes of it while I was laying on the floor eating cheese,

It could have gone in so many different directions.

Right,

Right.

Yeah,

I mean,

My process and I had to giggle to myself when I heard the phrase ordinary people because I think before I had written a book,

I also sort of had this kind of pedestal mentality of anybody who publishes a book.

And I grew up,

I talk about this in the book as well,

I grew up as kind of like an awkward introverted kid and really found my solace in books.

And so authors to me in my mind are like rock stars.

And I thought before I wrote this book,

There's nothing ordinary about that.

But while I was in the process,

That was one of those things that kind of got shaved back,

I think for the better is just my expectation of what a writer is and what that process is like and really just brought it down to earth,

Oftentimes in a literal way,

Hence landing on the floor.

Right,

Right.

I love this line.

You said,

The trolls that live under the drawbridge between idealism and outcome can and have paralyzed far more talented people than myself and probably always will.

And I think that's a great way of saying it because creating anything,

Boy,

Is it hard work.

There can be a lot of slogging away in the middle and fighting those trolls that you say.

So I just really wanted to bring that up to begin with because again,

I think a lot of people think that there's something different about them from other people who succeed or get a book done or all that and a lot of times it's just that the people who get it done stay in the trenches with the trolls long enough.

Yeah,

I love that you bring that up and I would agree.

That has always been my experience is really just,

It's not that I'm the best writer or the most intelligent writer or have the best technique or even that I'm the most well-trained meditation teacher or the most present person on Earth or the most wisdom-holding being.

I think there's something to be said about just tenacity and like,

Digging your heels in and saying,

I love this space enough to hang out here even when it's hard.

Amen.

Okay,

So let's talk about demons.

The title of the book is Tea and Cake with Our Demons.

So let's maybe tell the underlying story of where that comes from and then let's talk about what our demons are.

Okay,

So the underlying story,

Which is such a nice juxtaposition next to the central parable or the central metaphor of the one you feed,

The story goes and nobody is sure where this story comes from.

It's very heavily traded in the meditation world and Buddhist circles but nobody is exactly sure where it originates,

Which I did my due diligence and my research in writing this book.

Some people think that Jack Kornfeld was the first person to tell this story,

Some people point to Thich Nhat Hanh.

It's definitely not in the sutras,

It's not in the original scriptures,

So we don't know.

Same with the wolf parable,

Nobody really knows.

I can't get an answer.

Wow,

Isn't that interesting?

Yeah,

Yeah,

Some people insist it's Native American,

Some Native Americans insist it's Native American,

Others insist it's not,

Some people say Billy Graham wrote it,

I mean,

Who knows?

I've given up,

I've just gone,

Well,

Here it is.

It's a clearly useful storytelling device,

As is the story you're about to relate.

Yeah,

It almost doesn't matter where it comes from because there's something really resonant about it.

So the story of tea and cake with demons,

As the story goes,

Mara,

Who is the central demon in Buddhist iconography,

He's kind of considered like the big bad guy or the Buddha's nemesis,

We'll say.

And there are many kind of peripheral demons,

But he's like the big demon.

And he's oftentimes referred to as being the lord of delusion or the personification of all of our kind of misconceptions.

And so he comes to town,

A town that the Buddha was visiting and teaching in and the Buddha's attendants,

The monks,

The arhats found out that Mara,

The big baddie had come to town and they come running to the Buddha's door.

And as the story goes,

They're kind of like knocking on the door and warning the Buddha,

Mara's here,

Mara's here,

What are we gonna do?

What are we gonna do?

And it's this part of the story that I relate to the most because I find there's something so familiar about the monks freaking out,

Essentially.

Like there's this demon here,

He's coming for you,

He's looking for you,

What should we do?

And they immediately launch into strategy,

Which is,

You know,

Should we,

Let's get out of town.

Let's get out of town.

We know that Mara's here,

Mara doesn't know where we are,

Let's run,

Let's pack up our begging bowl,

Get out of town.

And then another monk chimes in with another strategy and it's basically like,

No,

No,

No,

Let's go on the offensive,

Let's go get Mara because we know where Mara is,

Mara doesn't know where we are,

Let's go attack first.

And then another monk chimes in,

No,

No,

No,

No,

No,

Let's hide,

Let's just go undercover,

We'll stay quiet,

We'll never be found.

And they're all riled up with their strategies for dealing with this demon.

And what the Buddha does next,

I think is so revolutionary,

At least it was for me when I first heard it,

Which is to acknowledge all of these strategies for dealing with this demon,

And instead to say,

Go bring Mara to my door and lay out my finest china and invite Mara in for tea,

Not as my enemy,

But as my esteemed guest,

Which I think offers such a beautiful alternative to the way that we tend to slash I tend to think about.

Think about.

Yeah,

Me too.

Think about dealing with any kind of discomfort,

Never even mind a demon,

But anything that's less than preferable or uncomfortable is to immediately launch in a strategy of how am I going to get rid of this as quickly as possible with the least amount of effort,

And it's really radical to say,

No,

No,

No,

No strategies.

Bring him to my door,

Invite him in,

Esteemed guest,

Invite him for tea.

It's a great story,

Also reminds me of another one from the Buddhist tradition of Milarepa in his cave,

And he comes home one day and finds his cave full of demons.

And same thing,

He starts on his strategies.

First he's trying to chase him away,

Get out of here,

Run,

They're not going anywhere,

And then he gets a little bit wiser,

And he's like,

I'll teach him the dharma,

That'll work.

Well,

Nope,

It doesn't work,

And it's eventually when he says,

Hey,

You guys,

All right,

It's fine,

If you wanna be here,

Hang out,

It's good.

And they all disappear as the story goes,

Except for the biggest,

Baddest,

Worst demon,

And that guy's still hanging out.

And eventually,

What happens is Milarepa puts his head in the demon's mouth,

And at that moment,

It changes.

And so it's a very similar story,

It's this welcoming,

These things that we really don't like,

Which is absolutely,

As you said,

Completely counterintuitive.

Yeah,

So counterintuitive,

Right down to putting your head in the demon's mouth.

Right,

Right.

And so,

Our demons,

You say,

I like this line,

I just wanna read it,

You say,

For each of us,

This demon material is like our own neurotic thumbprint.

It's in our difficult emotions,

Confused states of mind,

And the unintegrated aspects of ourselves.

Those are our demons.

So everybody kinda has,

It sounds like you're saying,

We've all got kind of our own personal collection of demons,

Although they look a lot like each other,

Don't they?

From person to person.

Yeah,

I think that's what makes any kind of story like this relatable,

Is that they do look a lot alike.

Their composition might be slightly off,

Slightly different,

But there is something really universal about having difficult emotions that we can all agree are not favorable,

Like say,

Jealousy or shame.

I don't know anybody in my life who experiences shame as being a pleasant thing.

So even though it might present differently for all of us,

I think that there's something that we can universally kind of agree on,

Of like,

Yeah,

That's really painful.

That's really uncomfortable.

You also say,

What comes bound into the forefront in moments of stress?

Our demons tend to rise to the surface when we feel vulnerable,

Threatened,

Or hurt.

Yeah,

Absolutely,

And I think that is where the kind of unique composition of demon material comes in,

Or kind of like the bio-individuality of it.

We all experience it.

That's a great phrase.

Thank you,

You know,

I also,

For the past 11 years,

I have been a student coach at an organization that uses that phrase very frequently,

So I've picked up on the language and just kind of use it casually in my everyday life.

You know,

For all of us,

It's different.

For me,

I personally have a real strong tendency towards anger,

Is kind of my first line of defense.

Whenever I'm experiencing anything kind of vulnerable or tender,

I tend to get really enraged.

In exploring my anger,

First and foremost,

I had to let myself actually feel it.

I come from a background which I don't think is unique to me,

Particularly as a woman who grew up in the kind of cultural situations that I did,

That rage or anger is not cute and is not to be expressed.

You can subvert it into something like depression or melancholy,

And that might be a little bit more kind of palatable to the people around you,

But having intense rage or anger,

Not acceptable.

So I think first and foremost,

I had to develop my own relationship with anger and actually allow myself to feel it in order to be able to sit down and explore,

Like,

Why is this my first line of defense?

Why is this so prominent?

And recognizing that it always shows up,

Shouldn't say always,

But I would say 95% of the time,

It shows up in the moments when I want to reclaim some kind of power over my vulnerability,

That there's something really powerful about feeling righteousness and anger and rage makes me feel like I'm back in the driver's seat,

I'm in control,

And it's very frequently anytime that I'm feeling really tender or heartbroken or vulnerable.

So I think,

Going back to that piece that you read,

For each of us,

That neurotic thumbprint is somewhat different.

However,

I think there is a universality to it and also a real opportunity to explore what our most kind of dominant demon material is,

And potentially the wisdom side of it.

Just saying.

You talk about some of the ways that we usually deal with our demons,

Which are not as skillful.

So let's run through a couple of those real quick.

And then let's sort of talk about what's a better approach.

You hit on a little bit of it there,

But let's talk about how we normally deal with them and the ways that are less skillful.

Again,

Just using my own experience,

Some of my favorite techniques,

Some of my favorite strategies are repression,

First and foremost.

I grew up in the Midwest.

I'm very familiar with repression.

I'm very good at it,

Very well versed in it.

Where in the Midwest did you grow up?

I grew up in Wisconsin,

Between Wisconsin and Ohio.

Okay.

I'm in Ohio.

Yeah.

So mostly Midwest,

Maybe not quite,

Depends how you define it,

But I think very common overall mentality.

Yeah.

And I shouldn't say for all Midwesterners,

By any stretch of the imagination,

But definitely in my family,

In my town,

High premium on Midwest nice.

It's like,

What's wrong?

Nothing.

I'm fine.

Everything is fine.

That sense of,

I want to keep the peace.

I don't want to burden anyone else with my emotions or with my feelings.

So I'm just going to,

You know what,

Everything is fine.

Everything is fine.

I'm just going to tamp this down.

I might pour a little bit of chocolate on top of it.

Maybe some wine or some Netflix.

And you know what?

Now it's fine.

I don't feel it anymore.

I'm fine.

Of course,

That strategy actually does work.

It works,

But it isn't sustainable.

It doesn't work for the longterm because at some point it kind of re-emerges in the same way that when we throw trash away,

The trash doesn't actually go anywhere.

We just bury it underground.

Right.

Right.

You know,

I think another strategy that might be common,

I know it's definitely germane to me,

Is the hot potato method,

Which is kind of like,

You know,

I don't want to feel this.

This is really uncomfortable.

I don't like how I'm feeling right now.

Here you take it.

And it could be any number of people.

It could be the people that we have identified as being implicated in the situation.

You know,

You're the reason why I feel this way.

So here you take it.

You take my anger,

My sadness,

My jealousy,

Or a loved one.

I am notorious for this because I know that my loved ones aren't going to go anywhere.

And so it's sort of like,

You're in my vicinity.

I'm feeling this really potent,

Uncomfortable feeling.

Here you take it.

And now at least I'm not angry by myself.

At least now I have company in this.

I think I was married to someone like you in a previous marriage.

Yeah.

You know,

I think it's fairly common.

I can't imagine that I'm the only one who has these strategies.

Not at all.

I stay strongly in the repression lane.

But that's a definite common one.

I was just saying to a coaching client today,

You know,

Like,

Hurt people hurt people.

Like,

If we don't find a way to work with it,

That's what happens.

Yeah,

Absolutely.

Because it has to go somewhere,

Right?

Right.

It's either like,

Projectile or underground,

But it has to go somewhere.

Another one that you mentioned that's a favorite of mine is to fixate on figuring them out.

Oh,

Yeah,

I would love to hear how that shows up for you.

I know 300 episodes of a podcast.

That's a joke that I suppose partially true.

That one's sort of a fine line,

Right?

Because there is something to be said for trying to figure out,

Solve,

Deal with,

And,

You know,

Engage with.

I think it's the line that I didn't hear very often three years ago,

But I seem to hear all the time now around spiritual bypass,

Right?

I think a lot of people have gotten to a point,

And I find this a lot in work I do with people,

Where we've gotten to the point where we're like,

Okay,

I think I know I'm supposed to feel my feelings.

That message seems to be percolating,

Right?

Getting out.

But I think what happens is we expect that by feeling our feelings,

They will immediately disappear.

When they don't,

That's when we go,

This strategy sucks.

You know,

I think so much of it comes back to something that you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation,

Which is intention.

It is a fine line.

I think so much of it comes back to sort of our reason or purpose or intention,

Motivation for wanting to understand these things or grappling with our feelings.

There's kind of the skillful and neurotic side,

Where the neurotic side is,

If I can figure it out,

Then I don't have to feel it.

And the intention there is still like subvert,

Subvert,

Subvert,

Get it out of here as quickly as possible.

Whereas you know,

It could look the same on paper,

But maybe the intention is,

I really want to understand this for my own development and for my own sanity and mental emotional health,

Which carries a very different intention.

And I would imagine,

Thus outcome.

Right,

Right.

I can't recall it right now to mind,

But somebody was talking about like three levels of engaging with emotions,

You know,

And,

And the first is sort of like,

Go away,

You know,

The second is sort of like,

Grudging,

Like,

All right,

You can be here,

You know,

And then the third is the befriending.

And I think that's what we're talking about when we say about,

Go back to your your core story about Mara,

Right?

Like,

Strategy one is like,

Oh,

All right,

We got to do something about Mara getting out of here.

Strategy two is like,

All right,

I guess we can let him hang around,

But it's gonna ruin the whole thing.

You know,

Like our whole events ruin his Mara's here.

And then the deeper one,

I think is the befriending or the the tea and cake or the what do you have to teach me?

Yeah,

That's so lovely.

I've never heard it phrased that way.

Of these three,

These three kind of phases or ways of relating ways of relating to uncomfortable feelings.

And so one of the things that you say later on in the book,

And I think it's a beautiful place to sort of reorient in the middle of this conversation,

Which is,

You say a rule of thumb on the path is that questions open things while answers shut them down.

Something that I have always found to be really,

I guess,

Refreshing about meditation practice and you know,

I come from a Buddhist background,

Which which definitely kind of informs the way that I teach meditation is that there's a real sense of encouragement not to be so eager to find the answer per se.

But to really lean into the process,

Which has always been a challenge for me,

And maybe that's why I gravitate towards it is,

For me,

At least there can be this,

This real sense of linear thinking of kind of,

Again,

If I can figure it out,

And I don't have to figure it,

I'm,

You know,

I'm looking for answers.

Here is like,

There's a problem and you solve the problem,

And then you know,

X,

Y,

Z,

And then it's nice and tidy,

And you figure it out.

So kind of moving over to this sort of process oriented,

Or directional way of thinking,

Where the questions may be as important,

If not even more important than the answer itself.

And really learning to hang out in this space of just letting the questions lead to more questions and more questions and more questions and not needing to kind of wrap it all up in a tidy little bow,

I think is really challenging.

I've always found it challenging.

For some people,

It might be native.

And that,

For me,

Has always been a real draw to meditation practice and,

You know,

These Buddhist teachings is that there is a lot of encouragement to just continue to ask these questions.

Yeah,

I mean,

The Buddhist tradition seems kind of suffused with that idea.

It's,

You know,

Zen mind,

Beginner's mind,

Right?

I always butcher the quote,

But in the beginner's mind,

There's many possibilities and the experts,

There's few,

Right?

And it tends to be dealing with a lot of what we need to deal with in this world as humans,

We need lots of possibilities.

Definitely.

And I also understand,

I mean,

Especially when things get really uncomfortable or,

You know,

Somewhat painful,

Whether it be,

You know,

Our own difficult emotions or,

You know,

What we're seeing kind of like socially or globally,

I understand the desire to like land on something where it's like,

This is an issue and we need solutions.

It might just be me.

I've always found that if I haven't taken enough time to fully understand what the challenge is or what the discomfort is or what the difficulty is,

And that means actually like hanging out with it,

You know,

Going back to what you were saying,

Go away.

Okay,

You can be here.

And then kind of like third step is befriending.

It's the befriending process of getting really intimate and cozy and familiar with what the challenge is and exploring it from a lot of different angles and,

You know,

Inviting it in on a regular basis before any kind of skillful or informed solutions can emerge.

You know,

I've always noticed that whenever I'm keeping myself at a distance from whatever that challenge is,

I can throw out solutions that I think might work,

But I'm not actually intimate enough with the challenge to know the most skillful way to approach it.

I am definitely a give me a problem and I will give you a solution very,

Very quickly and then I will get very irritated if that solution is not immediately adopted and anybody wants to change it.

There are times in certainly in my previous career where that served me well.

But I think even in that career,

There were times I learned as time went on that like allow a little bit more time for different things to emerge.

I was having this conversation with somebody and I'm taking this slightly off topic,

But not entirely,

Where we were talking about how you may know what you think the right answer is like two minutes into the meeting,

And you could just throw that answer out and wrap it up.

But the thing is,

A big part of what then needs to happen is that everybody else then needs to come to believing that that's the solution and they all need to be bought in on doing that.

And so while it may feel like with this person,

We were sort of saying it feels like,

Well,

We know what the answer is two minutes in and we spend 28 more minutes,

It feels like that's wasted time.

But it's not wasted time if the goal is that everybody feel bought in,

Committed,

And part of the solution.

I really recognize that because I just,

Again,

Looking at a younger version of myself,

And not that I'm cured of this,

I still have it,

But it's not as extreme.

A younger version of myself was always in a hurry,

Get the solution,

Let's go,

Go,

Go,

Go,

You know,

Solve,

Fix.

I've realized with certain things in life,

Particularly my emotions,

That just doesn't work.

Some things have fairly easy solutions,

And you might as well implement them and get to them.

But lots of things don't.

Yeah.

I mean,

I can't help but wonder how did that shift for you?

Or what shifted your perspective from,

You know,

Find the solution as quickly as possible,

Implemented,

Boom,

Done to the sort of maybe more exploratory or process oriented approach?

Well,

I think it's really a whole bunch of things.

Age,

I think,

With just a modicum of effort,

We tend to get wiser as we get older,

I think.

At least it's happened to me.

Maybe it's not only age,

Although I think age contributes.

I would say I've been doing the show a long time listening to people reading,

Seeing what works,

What doesn't work,

Certainly a deepening meditation practice.

And I think a certain degree also of some of my demons,

Right,

That just,

Although they've changed form,

I mean,

You know,

At one point,

My demons drove me to put a needle in my arm every day,

Right,

And destroy my life.

And that's not what happens anymore.

But some of those demons are still,

They're still around.

And so I think working with them over a whole lot of years has caused me to just get a lot more skillful in how I deal with them.

Maybe it's just the fact that I keep getting to work with them.

I told that Milarepa story,

What's interesting about it,

The part I don't like is in the story,

He puts his head in the demon's mouth and the demon just disappears.

That's not my experience,

Right?

My experience is his teeth may get a little bit shorter,

And he may not drool on me as much and you know,

But he's not gone.

You know,

My demons just haven't vanished.

That's not a real great answer.

But I'm always sort of at a loss when people are like,

Well,

How did you get from there to here?

I think that it's a lot of moments over a lot of time of trying to take in a lot of wisdom and knowledge and be patient and learn and my experience is life isn't these like grand visionary moments where everything changes.

Although I've had some that are pretty profound.

It's been much more just a slow and patient working with these things.

Yeah,

I really appreciate your answer.

Thank you so much for that.

It does speak precisely to what we're talking about here.

You know,

That there is potentially the desire to just kind of have the plan like,

Like,

Okay,

Just shortest distance from point A to point B.

You know,

And what I'm hearing from you is that it really is a lot of different kind of causes and conditions coming together a multidisciplinary approach time age,

The development allowing things to steep,

Which,

You know,

I know for myself and are kind of like,

Hit a button and have Amazon deliver it sort of world that we live in.

That's like not exactly what I want to hear.

Like there's something kind of like,

About it like,

But I want it now like,

Where's the button?

So I really appreciate hearing you say that it really actually is a commitment and it's time and it's an investment day after day after day after day.

And to say all that,

Though,

Does not mean to undersell,

At least in my mind,

The power and the beauty and the transformation that can occur.

You know,

So I think it's both right.

I think both those things are there.

I want to pivot here to a line you had that I can't let this interview go by without getting out.

Because you're describing the first noble truth of Buddhism,

You know,

That there is suffering in life,

There's this thing called Dukkha,

And you describe it as a low level case of restless everything syndrome,

Which as someone who suffers from restless legs,

Actually,

That line is so perfect,

Because that's what that's what Dukkha can feel like.

You know,

There's just always something that's not quite right,

That just feels a little jittery,

A little shaky,

Just like,

If I could just get that thing to settle in.

I just love that line,

A low level case of restless everything syndrome.

You know,

It's funny,

I have restless legs too.

And that's exactly what I wrote it.

It's never quite settled.

Yeah,

It's fascinating.

It's fascinating.

So I teach meditation at mindful meditation studios in New York City for the past four,

Four and a half years since they've been open.

And one of the most common questions that I get after class,

I love the questions that come up after class,

Because,

You know,

It's like,

What is actually happening in your mind when you're meditating?

Your experience is gonna be very different from my experience and everyone else's experience.

One of the most common questions that come up is,

Nothing is like wrong,

Per se.

And they recognize like,

I'm just sitting here in this beautiful space that soundproofed with my own mind and like,

I'm safe,

And I'm okay.

But there's still this sense of like,

And also,

You know,

It's like kind of boring,

And I wish it were like a little bit more entertaining,

Or like,

You know,

I kind of just want to like check my phone,

Like,

What if I got that message?

Or like,

You know,

My leg is itching?

Or,

You know,

Like,

My mind keeps like,

Going back to this phone call I had with my mom earlier today,

And I can't kind of stop going back there.

And it's like,

Even though there's nothing wrong,

Even though there's no danger,

And we're actually in this beautiful space together with no outside influence,

There's still something that's like a little kind of dissatisfaction about being in our own skin.

Oh,

I had a I had lunch with my mother in law a couple of weeks ago,

And I love my mother in law.

I got really,

Really lucky with her.

She's,

She's the kind of mother in law that,

Like two months into dating my now husband,

She pulled me aside,

And she was like,

So I really hope this works,

But if it doesn't,

Let's stay friends.

I was like,

Okay.

So she herself is a longtime meditation practitioner.

She started practicing back in the 60s,

70s.

And we were having lunch and she was talking about her dear friend.

I will go unnamed,

But she was talking about her dear friend who she was like,

You know,

Her her exit is to compulsively clean.

And I was like her exit?

I've never heard that before.

And she was like,

Yeah,

You know,

Your exit,

Your exit is is the thing that you do,

When it's just kind of unbearable to be in your own company.

Or like just kind of unbearable to be in your own skin.

It's like nothing is wrong per se,

But like,

It could be like,

Maybe just a little better.

Maybe I'll jump online and like see what's happening on Instagram.

Like there's nothing wrong.

It's just that low level,

All pervasive sense of,

As you said,

Like jitteriness,

The desire to take the exit.

And so that then leads us into sort of the second noble truth.

So yeah,

Let's just go there because I don't know that I've explored the four noble truths in a lot of detail in this show,

Although we've had tons of Buddhist teachers on but let's talk briefly about you know,

We've kind of just described the first noble truth,

Which is that,

You know,

Life is satisfactory.

What what's kind of the second?

So the second is life is satisfactory or life whether it's the kind of pain that we can point out and say that's painful,

Or it's just kind of that low level,

Restless everything.

Second noble truth says,

Well,

There's a good reason for it.

There's a really good reason why we experience this dissatisfaction in life.

And it boils down to the three root poisons.

The very first is clinging or attachment.

Second is aversion or aggression.

The third is ignorance.

So clinging attachment is kind of our fixation on having just the kind of experience that we want to be having.

Like,

Like our preferences and our specificity about you know,

Like,

If I could just rearrange my experience to have the kind of experience that I want to be having,

Then I'll be happy.

And aversion is the kind of like,

Forceful distaste that we often feel for anything that is not that,

Or it's it's our attachment not getting its way,

Essentially.

And the ignorance part of things is that we A don't know that this cycle of attachment and aversion is happening all day long.

There's this primary tension that we're in all day long of like,

I want this,

I don't want that.

We don't know what's happening.

And the second part of ignorance is that we really deeply self identify with these things.

We deeply,

Deeply self identify with what it is that we like and want,

And what it is that we dislike,

And even hate,

Which I appreciate that that these teachings say,

You know,

If we're experiencing dissatisfaction,

There's a really good reason for it.

And it basically boils down to this,

This kind of primary tension that we find ourselves caught in all day long,

And the way that we self identify with it,

Essentially.

Right.

So the second noble truth is that to summarize that a little bit is that the fact that we're always either trying to get something that we want or push away something we don't want,

And we don't see that happening.

That's the cause of most of our suffering.

Yeah,

Yeah,

That's it.

Which is not to say that there's something kind of like,

Quote unquote,

Wrong with wanting things or being clear about our desires.

However,

I think,

You know,

There is this split moment like this hair fracture moment that can happen where this this really kind of sincere impulse of appreciation.

Like,

Yes,

I really appreciate this.

I like this.

This is pleasurable.

This is beautiful.

I would like more of this.

It sort of hardens or it gets really kind of like,

Really kind of fixated.

Right.

And I think the subtlety you're pointing to there is such a such an important point because this has been sort of a with Buddhism,

I've sort of felt this tension right along this line.

And that tension is that,

On one hand,

That seems built into life,

Right?

If you look at the most basic cell,

It will move away from something that's toxic and move towards food.

It's like it's embedded in seems to be the condition of life.

And so you hate to set yourself up to be in direct conflict with something that is absolutely sort of core to life process.

So there's there's a subtlety here,

Which is that like,

Well,

Of course,

Some of that is happening.

Because that's as an organism built for survival,

Of course,

That's what you're you're doing.

It's really,

As you said,

The extent to which we identify and the extent to which we cling.

I mean,

When you hear these truths,

There's there the poisons are attachment,

Aggression and ignorance.

And I love the way you put this because the other way we often hear them and you say in their more inflamed manifestations,

Greed,

Hatred and delusion,

There's this spectrum and,

And I've always felt this tension as and I've been a student of Buddhism for a long,

Long time,

I've always felt this tension between,

Well,

The second noble truth saying,

I think,

An unsubtle way to approach it is,

Well,

You suffer because you want things or you don't want things.

And well,

That's sort of also true.

That is also kind of the way life is wired.

And so I've always found that an interesting tension that that runs its way through everything that I'm doing and my practice.

That's so wonderfully said,

And I'm so glad that you pointed that out that,

You know,

There can be this sense of like,

Well,

You're suffering because you want things.

And I know where my mind immediately goes when it's when it's framed that way is like,

Oh,

Well,

Then I just shouldn't want things.

And I'm bad for wanting things.

And maybe that makes me like an unspiritual person because I have a lot of desires.

All the time,

I want things all the time.

And that that makes me like a bad practitioner,

Or a bad,

Bad spiritual person.

So let's move on then the third noble truth,

Then how would you phrase that third noble truth is the potential for cessation,

Where,

You know,

We're going in progression here of okay,

Life includes dissatisfaction on a lot of different levels.

There's a really good reason for that dissatisfaction.

Here they are three root poisons.

And the third says,

There's a way out.

So good news,

This is the good news is that if we're having this experience,

And there's a cause for this experience,

Then there's also a way to end that experience.

And so it begins to point to the potential of releasing suffering or releasing dissatisfaction.

And then of course,

Fourth noble truth brings us right into the path,

Which fourth noble truth is it's always it always kind of reminds me of like one of those Russian nesting dolls,

Where we get to the fourth noble truth.

And it's like,

Actually,

There's eight of them in here.

We got eight more things here.

Yep,

Yep.

And the way that I oftentimes think about the fourth noble truth or the eightfold path is that it really is this kind of path in a sense of self respect,

Self respect or self worth or self love,

Of really taking responsibility for ourselves taking responsibility for our mind and our emotions and saying,

You know,

Okay,

I have this life and I want to be a really thoughtful,

Skillful steward of my life.

So how do I go about doing that?

And I think the fourth noble truth eightfold path really kind of sets up some really nice parameters without being too kind of like,

Dogmatic or closed off.

It's kind of like,

Here are some guidelines and we're going to leave it to you as sort of a self aware human being who is working with your own mind and emotions to navigate the gray areas.

And I think that's where you know,

Going back to what we were talking about this sense of questions opening things and this real encouragement for curiosity comes into play because there is no definitive answer.

It's left in our own hands to kind of navigate the most skillful path,

Recognizing that it's a lot of gray area.

I love the way you phrase that,

That it's up to us to find and navigate the right path.

So we are at the end of our time for this conversation.

You and I are going to talk a little bit more in the post show conversation.

And one of the main things we're going to talk about is how much we suffer when we compare ourselves to other people.

Your realization the Dalai Lama has haters,

Which is great.

And so we're going to tie all that together in the post show conversation.

Listeners,

You can get access to that as well as a exclusive mini episode with me each week where I do a teaching,

A song and a poem as well as lots of other good things and the joy of supporting something you love by going to oneufeed.

Net slash join.

Well,

Adriana,

Thank you so much for coming on the show.

I really appreciated your book.

I really appreciate the conversation and getting to spend some time together.

Eric,

Thank you so much for having me.

What a joy.

Thanks for thanks for the conversation.

Okay.

Bye.

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Reviews

Adreanna is delightfully sensitive, funny and inspiring, thank you Eric for this frank and elevating conversation