Samadhi & The Will To Do Nothing With Charles Freligh, PhD

Charles Freligh PhD is a personal guide, meditation teacher, and consciousness explorer who published a book called, The Will To Do Nothing. Ever think about writing a book? Listen up! Charles shares his experience writing his book, and some of the wisdom within it. Get inspired with Charles' view on the importance of self-expression, self-discovery, and living a fulfilling life.

This is from the Art & Business of Meditation Podcast

Music featured with permission: Nova by River Roots

Transcript

Hello and welcome to the Awakening to Purpose podcast.

My name is Lew Redmond and today is a very special day.

This is our first guest interview with Charles Freelie and it is a special one.

I'm just going to share more with Charles when we get to it,

But this was actually done live.

It was for Charles's book,

The Will to Do Nothing,

And we explored so many good topics around creativity,

His Samadhi experience,

His experience with psychedelics,

Which is such a ride to listen to.

So I really hope you enjoy this episode.

Charles is a friend.

He is a real deal teacher.

He really embodies and lives the things that he's sharing and you can feel his heart,

You can feel his spirit,

And I hope you enjoy this conversation with Charles.

Thank you deeply for showing up and spending this evening.

I hope it's going to be nourishing and just fun to get together and talk about something like Charles and the beautiful creation that he's brought to the world.

Charles and I have been connected now for a few years and he published his book and I picked up his book and as I read it,

I found myself continually wanting to text him and be like,

Hey,

Man,

I love this.

I feel so cool.

I can text the author of the book.

And so I kept finding myself wanting to say things to him.

And in that space,

I was like,

Well,

Why don't I just say the things I want to say to him and invite others to come and join?

And so that's kind of the inspiration for doing something like this tonight.

So thank you for being a part of it.

Charles.

Hmm.

Welcome.

Yeah.

Thanks.

I think you are or maybe are like one of the,

Because it's only been out or available outside of my own mind for like a little more than a month now.

So I think you're the first person that I know that's read it or that had read us to a certain point,

Like when we talked about it.

So just I think I mentioned it already,

But it's like,

It's very meaningful to hear you just share like little pieces of your experience of it because it has just been like only happening in my mind for like more than six years at this point.

So it was like such a cool feeling to have you like reference like a little thing from the book.

So thanks.

And that's like really helpful whenever I hear like something like that.

I love it.

So how do you feel like a month and a half after publishing this that's been a six year idea?

Like what's the last month and a half been like?

That's a good question.

It's like,

Feels still like kind of strange.

I feel like I need to find a,

And maybe this is actually it just as I think of it right now in this moment,

Like I've been sort of looking for a time that's dedicated to just kind of reflecting on that process because I haven't really had a time to slow down and even stop really doing the other things in my life.

There's a lot of momentum in my life,

Particularly with a young,

A seven month,

About seven month year old.

And there's like so many things that I can sort of be paying attention to that hasn't necessarily allowed me to kind of think about the difference between having worked on the book and having it done.

So there's,

I guess it feels kind of bizarre to have it done,

But also I haven't really like stopped to think about how it feels different.

It's weird to not have like a big thing out in front of me that like is a very meaningful project.

So that's like a little bit different to kind of have that.

Now it's done.

It's almost like a loss in a way,

But now it's like a project in a new way of figuring out like what it is now or what its life is going to be like or how I want to share it,

Why it's meaningful to share it.

So I guess I'm trying to figure out like how it feels or how it feels different.

So we'll be sure to make this like your integration processing work.

And I'll try as much as I can,

Even though in the conversation,

It can be about me.

But I think we might have talked about when I published my book,

There is that time afterwards is definitely,

I remember feeling like a real low.

It's like you just came off this great high,

This almost like you coming back from like a trip and adventure.

And then all of a sudden,

What now?

There's all the other piece of marketing and getting the book out there and getting people to care and read and yeah.

Maybe I mentioned this in a previous conversation,

But I think of the story often from The Alchemist.

There is like a glass shop owner and like the protagonist of the story.

If you haven't read it,

He's sort of making a journey to find like this treasure that he had a dream of.

And at a certain point,

He's along the path,

He's working for this,

I think it's a glass shop owner or something like that.

That glass shop owner,

His dream was to go visit this one particular place.

I can't remember,

Maybe it was Mecca or something like that.

And so the protagonist was like,

Well,

You can do it.

So why don't you go do it now?

And the guy was like,

Well,

I'll never actually do it.

It's my dream.

But like if I was to do it,

Then what would my life be about anymore?

So he's like,

Well,

That seemed like an absurd question to him,

Which that like,

I don't know,

Something about that was like,

Pretty interesting to me,

And maybe is the reason why someone might not like write a book or reach like the final goal of what you kind of your life has been about up to a certain point.

Because of that low,

Maybe that you're talking about.

Yeah,

I think this is I'm remembering us speaking about this,

Because as you're saying it,

I'm remembering the idea,

I don't know if anyone resonates with this,

That's listening.

The idea that I have that Friday is like a better day than the weekend,

Like the hope or the excitement for most people of the weekend that's coming.

And then there's almost like,

Okay,

Now we're past it.

Yeah,

It's an interesting thing to have a goal.

And then,

Like the hope,

The excitement that we get just from imagining it,

Like it's so I think,

I love having kind of a big vision.

And then I always think of hitting,

Hitting what I see as a big vision,

I guess,

For myself.

And then like,

You know,

We read about all of those people that it's,

It's not the thing.

And I think this is,

In a sense,

What your book is pointing to.

And a lot of our,

If you're on a spiritual journey,

It's pointing to is recognizing that,

Anything that we,

We see external as a level of finding comfort or security,

That that's only going to be elusive,

We're going to maybe touch it for a little bit,

But it's going to fall and we're back with ourselves.

In a new,

Like,

Lasting sense.

Yeah.

So,

I'm going to share Charles's bio.

And,

And I have a question from,

I love it.

Charles is probably my favorite bio I've ever read,

Because it's just like,

Crushes it with like credentials and then just says,

Boom,

Like,

Doesn't matter.

So Charles,

And a lot of you imagining know Charles or myself,

Or if you're new to either,

Welcome.

Charles obtained a master's degree in psychology from New York University and a PhD in clinical psychology from the Virginia Consortium and has years of experience working therapeutically with individuals and groups.

He has published original research in the scholarly journal Mindfulness,

Created and led manifold courses and workshops,

Taught and continues to teach as an adjunct university professor and consults for a variety of organizations.

None of this,

However,

Defines him or his work.

He resists the application of labels or titles as adequate descriptors of who he is.

Most purely and not without some self-conscious embarrassment,

He considers himself an artist of the present moment.

I love this so much,

Because with the same kind of self-conscious embarrassment,

I have somewhat made up a label for myself as a meditation artist,

Because I see kind of this work as this creative field for me.

And so,

When I heard you say that you're an artist of the present moment,

I'm like,

Yes,

Like there's something about that that Charles gets.

And so,

Tell us more about what that means to you.

And I think that title makes like total sense to a meditation artist.

Like I've thought of,

I would guess,

Maybe many of you are familiar with Insight Timer if you're familiar with Lou and myself,

But I've thought of that as it's very much kind of like Spotify,

Although Spotify has moved beyond music.

But originally it was music,

And I see Insight Timer as operating kind of the same way.

You have all these different artists,

Like what else would you call them?

I guess meditation teacher,

But that feels a little bit less accurate to me than just like an artist,

Because what you're sharing.

.

.

So artists of the present moment,

I guess for me,

It's like the main thing that I'm after.

I'm going to be just trying to articulate this in the moment in anything that I do.

Which by the way,

Is like spot on for what that would mean,

Right?

Like articulating this in the moment.

Yeah.

So,

That's it.

Like I guess anything that I do,

I'm trying to do it as artificially as possible.

Whether it's like working with a client and I'll use,

I use quotations very frequently because I feel like it's always minimizing what the actual experience is,

Which can never actually be given a label.

And even that like client implies like,

I don't know,

This distance between a me that's the professional or the clinician and the client.

So I guess artists of the present moment means to me,

Just like as much as I can,

Trying to get my self-conscious voice out of the way and allow the moment to happen through me in as like pure manner as it possibly can.

And for me,

Like the act of talking is always such an interesting experience with regard to that.

Because like right now,

Words are happening.

I'm not actually intentionally making them happen,

But there's this sort of a feeling in response to the sound vibrations that you sent to me and now it's my turn to speak.

And it's hopefully coming through and expressing the feeling that I have in as clear a way as possible.

But as soon as my self-conscious mind starts to get in the way and it's like,

Is this making any sense?

Are people still listening to me?

All of these things,

Like then it's going to actually get in the way of the pure message that I intend to send back to you or back to anyone who's here,

If that makes sense.

And so basically in anything that I do,

I'm trying to gauge a feeling of how artificial is this and how can I like let go of that artificiality,

Which might require feeling vulnerable or not knowing what I'm going to say next,

Or not knowing how the other person thinks or feels about me and just like letting go of that and trusting something to happen through me,

Whether it's in spoken words like this,

Or if it's in written words like in the book,

Which feels a bit safer because there's not that immediate feedback or just whatever it is.

And that's kind of what my notion of an artist is,

Is like bringing something into tangible actuality that started in this intangible sort of feeling state.

And I guess you can have artists,

You develop a craft of an instrument and that helps to release this feeling that you have.

But maybe you can notice how much that artist using that instrument is trying to be a copy of someone else in order to become successful versus how much they're using their instrument to just release something that they have that no one else could possibly have released in that way.

And then you're really drawn to that.

It's like,

Wow,

There's something really special or I know that that's genuine,

But it maybe requires them letting go of being actually in control of the release.

But they develop skill in something that can translate it.

So maybe words would be one version of that skill to translate what's happening and to release it in a pure form.

And the hope is that the person receiving it connects with it and can sense in their own feeling that,

Yeah,

That's true and that's genuine and that maybe helps to awaken that thing in them and encourages them to release that stuff in their own way,

Too.

So what do you think about that?

Does that kind of make sense?

Yes,

100 percent.

And I love everything you said.

This is a topic that I wanted to talk to you about it.

So I'll just ask a little bit more on this question,

Because I think the creative process fascinates me and and I can just feel in this book the your unique creation of what you wanted to make into the world.

And I also loved how how much it sounds like all the teachers and the people that you've read have inspired you.

So I guess I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this,

Because I know people who would say that like,

No,

There's not original ideas or there's like we're all we've all learned something and then maybe it's in our unconscious and then it comes up.

So I have my own thoughts on that.

But I'm curious to hear what's the balance between,

OK,

I'm reading,

I'm digesting,

I'm learning.

What's that balance of like the steel like an artist,

Right?

Like,

Oh,

You know,

I kind of like this style.

This resonates with me and I'm going to learn how to do this,

But then figure out how to write like Charles Dickens,

Random name,

And then I'll make my own like style from that.

So I'm just I'd love to hear more of of your thoughts on that.

Yeah,

I don't know the answer to that.

I heard I won't remember the quote,

But I heard D'Angelo say what he's he's like my favorite musical artist of all time,

I would say,

If any of you are familiar with D'Angelo.

And I mentioned him in the book,

But I heard him say something about like copying leads to originality,

Which I hadn't thought about in that way before.

But maybe like if you haven't developed your ability to release that pure stuff,

Like you might copy Charles Dickens and try to write like Charles Dickens,

Like and try to create that and you'll create something that's not as good as what he did.

But maybe it will lead you to find your way to create something that is yours.

But I hadn't thought of it in that way before,

But it sort of made sense to me.

Like like in music,

For example,

I play the guitar,

But I haven't played enough to be able to really use it as like an expression of my creativity.

But there's something about playing someone else's song like enough that it might get me to a point where I can then release like maybe my own version of this song or my own like authentic artistry.

Yeah,

I don't know.

Is that kind of answer your question?

Definitely.

Do you think that there is the mix of like what is skill development and what is inherent?

Like,

Do you think that if you were meant to be a really great guitar player,

That there would be by now like this natural you're just like strumming and all of a sudden you can just create a song,

But maybe because it's not your dharma,

Maybe that it doesn't come like that,

Like there's actually other things that are speaking to you.

So I'm just curious in this work that we're doing together,

Similarly but different,

Like do you find that things come more naturally to to create a course,

To create,

To write?

Like,

Is there something where that's like easier than,

You know,

Watching YouTube videos trying to figure out how to,

I'm speaking for myself,

I'm learning pano right now.

So that's like what I'm doing.

And I'm like,

Yeah,

This is fun,

But there's not a like I can read kind of music.

But anyway,

Yeah,

I'll let you answer that.

Yeah,

It's a good question.

I mean,

I wonder if maybe if I spent enough time in any of these different channels that I would find that natural release,

But maybe the thing that comes most comfortably is just a product of like where your life has kind of led you.

Like I just sort of found myself in psychology and then I found myself and I just had to then pursue a master's and didn't have to.

But I was like,

What else am I going to do?

So I just pursue a master's in psychology and then didn't know what to do after that.

So I guess I'll pursue a PhD in psychology.

Then it kind of like that whole time I'm learning about writing and like talking with people and which just gave me hours and hours and hours of training that skill.

But I wonder if that whole time if I was training in playing the guitar or in the piano or whatever it might be,

If those might be equal sort of channels for me to express the same thing that I'm at least trying to express now.

But certainly there are things that feel more comfortable and less comfortable.

When I'm most comfortable is in a one on one situation with a client,

I would say,

And that feels like it comes very naturally to me.

But it's also interesting as someone who's an incredibly introverted and quiet person who some people might say like never talks.

How like I find that to be a really like it feels very natural,

But it kind of has to be just like a one person thing,

Which is why it's always interesting in this kind of situation when it kind of challenges me to feel more comfortable in a larger group.

But here there's kind of space for me to like work through things in my mind where there might not be space if we were all in a room together for that at the same time.

But so to answer your question,

Kind of,

I'm not really I'm not really sure,

But I have some sense that there's maybe just some like spark thing that we all have and have access to.

But maybe our various life circumstances presents us with different particular channels that we might find to be able to express that thing.

But in the book,

I refer to it as the current like this.

And that's what this bottom symbol in the book is.

This like it refers to the current.

And it's my sense of just this thread that is running through everyone and everything.

And things in life might happen that push us very far away from our feeling of the current.

But then we might be able to sort of resensitize ourselves to that feeling.

And that's where I feel like influences like Alan Watts,

For example,

I feel like has been one of my main igniters of the current in me.

And so many of the things that I share are things that I've heard from him.

But on a certain level,

I feel like I can share them originally because I also don't think that he would necessarily claim them as his own.

Like they're just sort of basic like parts of being a person.

But he might have said it in a particular way that's really helpful or referenced a particular story that just really kind of crystallizes it or makes you remember it.

So,

I mean,

I certainly give credit to anything that I say to other people.

But I also don't say that in the like that it's their ownership either.

I don't think they own it.

I don't think I own it.

I don't think anybody owns it.

It's like the current is just this thing that we can have access to or we might feel distanced from.

But I think influences can really remind us of our own sense of the current.

And then that can help us to release it in our own ways.

Well,

I think the world is very grateful that you went down this path and maybe not the guitar,

But you might have created something special with the guitar as well.

But I feel well,

Let's start with just you alluded to the art in the book.

If you haven't picked up Charles's book,

Definitely please do.

And as you'll read the book,

You'll also see that there's beautiful art that kind of relates to the stories of the book,

Which is really,

Really cool piece of what makes this such a beautiful project.

And so maybe just explain to everyone like each one.

So this is the current.

Take us through the whole cover of the book.

And I'll try my best.

I mean,

It's pretty simple,

Ultimately.

So this the beginning circle.

So there's four of them.

And actually,

I started with this one.

This one came to me,

References Alan Watts.

Actually,

It's a tattoo that's on my wrist to the bottom circle.

And it.

The meaning of it to me has evolved over time,

But I was sitting by a little pond in Australia,

Actually,

I was visiting my sister who lives there now,

And I was reading a book by Alan Watts,

I can't remember which one it was,

But he referenced a little like a metaphor of a waterfall and how as humans,

It's like we we go to the waterfall and we have a little bucket that's ours and we attempt to capture the waterfall in the bucket.

Maybe you've heard this metaphor or something like it before,

But we attempted to capture the waterfall in the bucket and take it away and have it for ourselves.

But then when we go away from the waterfall and look at it,

It's no longer the waterfall that we wanted to have.

It's still water.

And so we become frustrated and we might go back to the waterfall again or try different ways and maybe try to change our bucket to be able to capture the waterfall.

But inevitably,

We never can actually have it for ourselves.

Like we have to just experience it or like stand,

Watch it or let it rush over us.

But we can never have it in that like way that we might wish to.

And so the bottom that so the visual of this like bucket and like running,

Rushing waves going through,

That's where that originally came from.

And I like having both of them together because maybe as a conscious human,

I inevitably will be on some level attached to like trying to capture the waterfall.

But at the same time,

I can accept that I never can.

And I can like feel the the water running through me and know ultimately that I'm actually no different from the waterfall.

I'm part of the whole thing.

But maybe just as this conscious person living in society,

I will still like on some level probably be attached to that unless I go and am a hermit in the woods or something.

But maybe still even then,

Like I'm doing that in some way.

So that's where that the bottom one originally came from and then the rest evolved from it.

So it's like actually sort of the final one,

But the others came from it.

But so this one is just it represents the beginning of life,

Essentially.

Like we start out as pure and just sort of undefined to a certain extent,

Like our geography or the things that we inherit are kind of there.

But to a certain extent,

Like we haven't learned language yet.

We're just sort of existing.

And then this one references the ways in which we run away from this original pureness or naturalness.

We develop a particular persona.

We learn like rules of living and stuff that's been said in so many different ways.

But these these symbols just kind of make sense to me to capture something that might be kind of just universal.

And so we run away from ourselves in lots of different ways,

Seeking something that maybe we originally had,

But we become attached to the finding it somewhere else.

So we run away and we inevitably are like it just becomes a really frustrating search for something that we can never actually find because it was already here to begin with.

And then the hope is that like we can develop or find some way of coming back to that original,

Natural way of being.

And that could be like you might be exposed to meditation or you might read a particular book or find particular influences or like maybe music does it for you or just something that helps you remember something that you never actually needed to go anywhere else to get.

And so there's like this possible process of then like re-returning to something that was so natural to begin with.

And then this final one,

Like the change of color to me sort of represents a point at which you might let go of the development of this separate you who had been the one in charge and was the one who was running away,

Was the one who was coming back.

And I was and I'm going to be the one who returns to my original nature.

But you might reach a point where you realize there was never anything you could do to return to something that was already there to begin with.

And so this one refers like it's just reaching a final point of reconnection with something that you never were actually separate from,

But like a conscious awareness and like a joining of that natural state that you had from the beginning.

And that's like a real reunion with the current is what I call it.

Probably many different traditions would have different labels for that same kind of thing,

Like enlightenment might be one.

But,

Yeah,

That's kind of what they mean to me.

Begin natural,

Move away from our naturalness for a whole variety of reasons.

Hopefully we can develop a way of coming back to that naturalness and then reach a point of realizing that I can never actually do anything to become natural,

Which might feel kind of like a loss,

Too,

Because this whole time I've been the one in charge.

And so that is maybe even something kind of sad or scary about letting go of being the one in control of being natural.

So that's what they kind of mean to me.

Something that sticks out as I read this book is was put perfectly into words by I heard a teacher,

Kabir Helmensky,

Describe a talk that he was listening to.

And I think this also bodes to any embodied teacher guide is that it's not that this book is about meditation or you're talking about meditation or you're talking about doing nothing.

More so,

I think what is felt is that you're talking from that place.

It's coming from that space of the current.

It's coming from that experience of your essence.

And I had said to you,

You know,

As I was reading this each morning,

I was going through it slowly,

Maybe 15,

20 minutes in the morning,

Like with coffee.

And it felt like that was my meditation.

Like it felt like as I read,

It was just this opportunity to drop in.

And I had told you,

It's like,

Charles,

This feels like this book is like a meditation.

I know you mentioned in the beginning of the book,

Read this like it's a song.

And so when I said that to you,

You had explained to me or expressed to me that that was like part of some of your intention with writing it.

So.

What was your intention with writing this and what are you hoping people that read it to receive from it?

Yeah,

That totally is like,

Yeah,

It was really nice to hear that because that.

Exactly is my intention for it or was or if there has to be a particular intention,

It's just for it to be something that's experiential and is felt like a meditation.

Like I've realized over time some of my favorite books,

Like the books that are more and there are concepts in this and like explanations of things.

But I realize that like the most kind of helpful books for me in the realm of presence or like connection with my sense of what I would call the current are often not like related to even to meditation.

Like they might it might be a novel or something.

It's just like I get a sense that this person is writing from the present moment the whole time.

And so they act to me like a gravitational pull into the present.

If I'm giving all of my attention to this experience of of reading,

It's like I'm really there with them as they're sharing from this like present non-instrumental place.

They just have something to share and it's being shared in this like pure way.

And there's something I like I realized,

Too,

Some of some books they might require,

Like it's a bit of a challenge to get into them,

Like to get into the world of it versus something that like you can kind of get it and it makes conceptual sense and it kind of fits into your framework.

While that can be helpful,

Too,

My hope for this one is that it might feel like like a little bit of work to like it's requiring attention,

Like meditative attention to stay with it.

And my hope is that like you then sort of start to speak the language,

Like the book,

I don't know if you've ever read A Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez.

It was the first one that like made me aware of this experience,

At least that I have that I'm trying that I'm describing.

Like for a while,

It was a lot of work to kind of get into it.

But then I felt like I so look forward to being with this book.

It was like a very present experience and I had to give it my full attention to really like get the feeling of it.

But when I did it,

It was like nothing else,

Like nothing else existed because I was fully immersed in this world that like that I was feeling from the author.

Also,

Autobiography of a Yogi is like that for me,

If you've ever read that one,

That was like recommended by my mom.

Also,

I see my mom's in here and she recommended that book to me,

I think for like for several years.

But I had finally got around to reading it and I would say it's probably if not my favorite book,

It's one of my favorites because I also get that same sense.

It's like it's pulling me into a feeling.

Another one I read,

The Cloud of Unknowing recently,

Which is by this like I think like 13th century Christian mystic that is unknown in terms of who they actually were.

And I don't even know what I was really reading half the time.

I was just like,

Yeah,

It's just like it felt right.

Like it was just pulling me into this feeling and it's mostly physical.

So my hope is for someone reading it that they would get that sense from me that like,

You know,

I had had kind of stuff in mind,

Like I had I had an outline of this.

Arc of stuff that I wanted to share in the book that also occurred spontaneously that I didn't intentionally come up with,

But then anytime I went down to write,

I was like,

OK,

Here I'm in this space,

But now I just want it,

Whatever it is,

To happen naturally through me.

So just whatever I'm writing,

Just go and then kind of let that flow and try to just not be as.

Try to be as genuine as possible,

Essentially notice what I feel like I'm saying something because I think this person,

This potential reader would want to hear it in this particular way and don't do that.

And,

You know,

If I think,

Well,

This is the proper flow of how things should go,

Let go of that to just let it happen in the way that,

You know,

Capitalize this letter here because this feels right to me.

Do it like just let it happen in the way that feels most true to me.

So like so that's my hope for the way that is experienced,

That it would feel like.

Mainly just like a meditation,

Even if you don't get anything conceptually out of it,

But it might like impact you in a deep way that it may be like it does come out through you,

But not even using the same words that I used or not referencing the same concept,

But maybe it connects to something that you already knew to begin with.

Or at least that's kind of how I feel about it.

I'm not going to necessarily teach something.

New,

Maybe it's put in different words,

But my hope is it connects to something that you already deeply just know,

And it's just kind of reminding you of that thing,

Like for you to be able to connect back with it and express it in your own way.

Like I listened to Alan Watts in the mornings and I listened to him so many times and I've read a bunch of different things that I know all the stuff that he's talking about.

But just the way that he's talking about it,

Like the energy of what he's expressing is reminding me of something that I know,

But it's so easy to forget just in the busyness of everyday life.

And it's so valuable for me to have a little space of time to come back to that.

I'm like,

Oh,

Yeah,

Same like with meditation.

And maybe this could be a good time to stop and do like a period of just doing nothing.

Like that for me is often a little space where I just remember something that's so obvious and it's maybe can't be put into words,

But it's just a feeling.

And it's just like,

Oh,

Yeah,

Like this thing.

But I had to make the intentional space to slow down and remember it.

But then it's so valuable in terms of whatever I do next.

And like then just the momentum of the rest of the day,

Because I did take that space.

So my and I've said my hope for this book a couple of different times,

But my hope would be that this would just act as a reminder of something that you already know,

But it could help you to like power it up in your everyday life.

The image that's coming to mind with this book and like any other book books like you mentioned,

Is is it's almost like it's a tuning fork and it's almost like a transmission.

There's an energy,

There's you're reading it and you're kind of there's a resonance that you can feel beyond whatever the words you could have wrote,

Just words in here.

But if it was really,

Truly from that space,

You could feel it.

And I have to say,

I think your mom,

Deborah,

I would have I love my mom,

But I would have been really cool if my mom gifted me autobiography of a yogi.

I was Paramahansa Yogananda had a had a had a deep influence on me at an early part of my journey.

And just to mention,

My mom did most of the artwork in the book.

I don't know if I told you that before,

But I and it's like it turned out so perfectly for what I was hoping for,

Just like something kind of flowy,

Not too serious,

But also not too playful.

Like,

I don't know,

It just captured exactly what I was going for.

And it was really important for me to have the like the feeling of the book expressed visually in addition to just words,

Because I know for me that's really helpful.

And like,

I just love visuals to help me like remember things.

Or so thanks to my mom for that.

And yeah,

Shout out to her.

Amazing.

Yeah,

So let's take let's take a moment to to do nothing.

Yeah.

And yeah,

So if if you're all willing to do this,

You don't necessarily have to.

But for me,

It's always inevitably like a really interesting thing to do.

And this is often how I'll begin meetings with clients or just the people that I meet with is to take a minute or two minutes to just sit and,

Quote unquote,

Do nothing.

I don't know if it's ever actually possible to do nothing like you might be doing nothing externally.

But of course,

Probably lots of stuff is happening internally.

But maybe you could even like let go of trying to do anything internally,

Acknowledging that stuff is still going to happen.

And interestingly for me,

I think that includes letting go of focusing on your breath if you want to,

Because you might,

You know,

Immediately go into,

OK,

I'm doing nothing.

So that means I'm I'm going to meditate or focus on sensation or so that for me is still doing like something that's still you kind of being in charge and attempting to exert control over what's happening right now.

So if you are willing to just sort of experiment with the feeling of letting go of control completely and just allowing whatever happens,

Whether it's something internal or external,

A sound in your environment,

Physical feeling,

Thoughts that are going somewhere,

Just let it all happen however it does.

And we'll take two minutes to do this.

And so I can play a bell to start and end the time.

And so really,

Again,

My only instruction is to have no intention and to do nothing as much as you can notice your urges to do anything.

It's always interesting for me to to notice physical urges,

Like I have an urge maybe to adjust or to scratch or whatever it might be.

And totally you can do those things,

But you might also take an extra beat to question like,

Why do I want to do that or do I really need to do that?

Or maybe like notice the urge and then let go of the urge and just see what that is like.

So we'll just take two minutes to give yourself full permission to not have to do anything at all.

And we can begin that now.

It's two minutes.

If you want,

You could notice if it feels like there's anything different from that two minute period of time and like what's happening right now.

It's always interesting to me what it feels like.

Is this different than what we're like,

Where we were during the two minute period of time or maybe not?

If you wanted to,

Too,

It's always interesting to me for me to hear what that experience is like.

If you wanted to write in the comments or something or just anything that popped up to you during that time,

Only if you want to share or if it felt like a really long time or it went by super fast.

That's always interesting,

Too,

Because it could feel like excruciatingly long or it could feel like it just like went by really quickly.

Yeah,

I'll actually comment on it because I feel like I've never really done that with that full intention.

It's always been,

OK,

I'm going to meditate now.

And I really tried to even keep my eyes open and really sit in that.

And it was actually I thought the time went so fast.

It was really interesting.

For me,

Like for that reason,

There's something that feels really like caring to myself when I can genuinely do that,

Because even the meditating,

It's like,

OK,

Come on,

Like get it together,

Focus.

But something feels generally really nice if I can actually get to that place of like,

Don't worry about anything at all.

Just just just be here.

And I do it.

And even here,

I was feeling this,

Too.

But I do this before I teach a couple of college classes.

And so I'll begin those with a minute or two minutes of just sitting.

And that feels if I can get to that place of letting myself do nothing,

It feels really caring,

Too,

Because I might be worrying about what I'm going to say or just the general feeling of nerves or definitely going into the future in my mind.

But it can feel so like caring for myself to just be like,

Just however you are right now is totally fine.

And just be aware of the fact that you're alive right now.

Like,

That's kind of crazy to me that always is this bizarre thing,

Like just the fact that I'm living,

Even though it doesn't capture it,

Because it's just a word to describe what's this experience that's happening right now that is incomprehensible so that when I stop doing anything,

It's like I can remember that just kind of feel it and be aware of it in a little bit of a state of awe for a couple of minutes.

And inevitably,

It changes the whole trajectory of how things were going up until that point.

So,

Yeah,

Thank you all for doing that with me.

What a gift for college students.

Diana said it was nice to pause.

It felt fast.

Yeah.

So,

I want to take us into,

Hold on.

Sarah said it was slow,

Peaceful,

Nice.

Says that reading the book for the first time applied the concepts to come back here now frequently.

Beautiful.

You like the graph in the book because you're an engineer and a math professor.

Oh,

You're going to use it with your students.

That's so cool.

Yeah,

I have a graph.

That stuff's kind of fun for me,

Too,

Because I have this like research background,

But I don't consider myself researchy,

But it's fun to sort of think of things in that way sometimes or to use those kind of tools as just like another way of communication.

But I just have a little graph of life,

Essentially,

Where it sort of refers to these circles,

But using different terms,

Where we begin at this sort of bottom.

If you have your y-axis and your x-axis,

We begin here at the bottom left of it in this pure area and then natural area.

And then we move up,

We move further and further away from that natural ground that was going across on the bottom.

You could call it zero.

I also refer to it as like the Tao or God or infinity,

Just like my way of thinking about it is always happening on this zero point.

That's what that little space also reminds me of,

Of that just that natural feeling.

But we move away up the graph,

Like into our separate selfness,

Into our story,

Into all that stuff that moves away from our naturalness.

And then we can find a way potentially of dropping back down the graph.

I don't know if we can ever get back to zero,

But we might get closer or just have something that kind of goes up and down.

But we have more of an experience back closer to that original natural nature through some sort of practice of that's like what I'm referring to as doing nothing,

Like a real willingness to let go of all the doing that continues to move me further and further away from this natural thing.

So it is a sort of doing,

But it's like,

And that's why I think Taoism has some good language for this,

Like wu wei,

Action via inaction,

Non-doing,

It's still doing.

It may actually be the hardest kind of doing to let go of this chronic,

Tense energy of exertion and let go and become natural.

And so potentially move back down the graph towards something,

Towards that zero point or that just like natural way of being.

But it also means that I'm out of control of my natural state.

So I might not want to let go of that.

So I want to talk about your,

I don't want to put words in your mouth,

But I would say an illumination,

Satori,

Awakening moment.

And I want to read a little bit of it and then kind of just hear something from there.

But for those that haven't read the book yet,

Charles is in a meditation retreat and experiencing a lot of pain,

Resistance,

And frustration.

And there was like a bird that came that really amped up his frustration with his ability to be there.

And through this resistance there,

And I'm just going to start to read from the book,

But let's see.

So the innocent birds triggered the peak of my frustration,

A boiling point cross at which resistant effort became meaningless.

There was none left to give.

My engine of resistance crawled and sputtered to a halt and a complete giving up naturally occurred.

As all effort evaporated,

The boundary circle somehow flipped.

The circle that had enveloped me like an impenetrable membrane,

Keeping me inside and the world outside suddenly became inverted,

Became porous to all.

In that Copernican shift,

Nothing was or even could be wrong because I was no longer apart from anything.

The door of me opened wide and the space on either side of the doors now exposed threshold was endless.

Now the bird sounds pass through me.

Now physical sensations harmonized naturally with the general buzzing of surrounding air and ground.

Pain was nonsensical because there was no separate object to the owner of the pain,

No gravitational center discreet from its orbiting objects.

I was an open container,

An infinitely empty cup.

I'm going to skip a few lines here.

In the upward waterfall of love and creativity,

I felt as though my compost heap was now bursting with delicate flowers of intuitive,

Unselfconscious thought.

I love that line,

Unselfconscious thought,

One of which was the germination of this current creation,

The will to do nothing.

Sprouted in my mind all at once as an aphoristic symbol of both my specific momentary condition and broad underlying life philosophy.

As I continue to sit in the fertile space once consumed with resistance,

It was as if sepal,

Pittle,

Pistil,

And stamen naturally blossomed from the stalk of this simple phrase into a full-bodied flower,

A clear map outline of the collection of ideas you find yourself reading now.

I was hearing,

Seeing,

And feeling the call.

Two things.

First,

A comment on something that you even shared before this.

The one,

The paradox as we get closer to truth,

But how interesting it is.

And I've been playing with this idea,

Looking at the yin-yang symbol that like within the darkness,

Within the challenge,

Within the resistance,

All of a sudden,

If we can kind of like let go,

We almost like come into that little speck of light and like it inverts itself.

It's like we come out the other side.

And so,

It just,

It reminded me of this kind of image that I've been thinking about recently.

Um,

So,

I understand these,

This experience is ineffable.

Like there's no words that you can actually describe this experience was,

And I'm sure that you did everything you can in this book to describe the experience,

Which is beautiful.

So,

If you have anything else to say about it,

Great.

But the question really is,

Okay,

You're at this retreat,

You have this opening,

You have this,

Oh my God,

The book,

You can see it,

It's clear.

What happens when you leave the retreat,

Go back into the real world,

Both in integrating that experience,

And then like,

Oh my God,

How do I start,

How do I start writing this book?

Like take us,

I'm interested in what happens after,

Because I think people can relate,

Maybe not to the full experience that you shared,

But can relate to going on retreat,

Having this amazing time,

Or having this like,

Where they're,

Okay,

I had this new idea,

This call,

Whatever it is,

Getting home,

And then being like back to the world of people,

Job,

The normal routine,

And all of a sudden,

All that stuff that you got on retreat is just gone.

So,

Take us to the integration and what you did after this retreat.

Yeah,

Thanks for reading that too.

It was like,

Really cool to hear,

A,

Someone else,

But like you reading it,

Like,

It's almost like an emotional thing,

Or it was,

To hear that from you,

Or just from an outside perspective.

So,

Thanks for doing that.

And also like,

It sort of allowed me to re-experience that in a way that I hadn't been able to,

If not for having like someone else kind of read it to me,

And sort of to be an audience member of it.

So,

It brought me back to that feeling.

And it was interesting too,

Because like,

So I had this,

Like,

So I was sitting in meditation there,

And when I'm at this monastery,

We would generally like sit for maybe like six to eight hours throughout the day of hour-long periods or so of just sitting in silence.

And I kind of challenged myself to sit in this particular way.

I didn't have to,

But that was like fairly painful for me.

I was given some encouragement by some of the monks,

Like,

To continue to sit that way.

I wasn't pushed to do it,

But they just encouraged me that that was a valuable thing to sit with,

Like the experience of pain,

And to let that become the object of my meditation.

And so one time,

Like,

It was reaching a point that just felt unbearable.

And I,

Like,

So I had been just sort of like tensing up internally to try to just deal with the pain,

Or I would like focus tension up here so I could forget about the pain in my ankle for a little bit,

Or I would focus somewhere else,

So like it would let go of the pains in another spot.

But it just reached a point where I had nothing left to like to give against the pain.

So it just sort of a total giving up happened.

And it was at that point that there was like no more pain.

And I think it came back,

You know,

As soon as I started thinking about it again.

But it just,

It allowed me a felt experience of something that I had heard many times intellectually,

And I intellectually understood,

Like,

Yeah,

Let go.

And that is the route to transcendence,

Or that is the route to awakening,

Like,

Let go of control.

But it felt like that allowed me on a really deep level to feel the meaning of that.

Because I just had no other option.

Then,

Like,

It just kind of happened.

And then through that letting go,

There was just no more pain.

And then I was in this space of just like receiving all this stuff,

Just like what felt creative stuff.

And in that space arose,

It was like the will to do nothing.

I just felt like I heard it and saw it in a way.

And then it just all came out so clearly.

It was like the various elements of the book.

Like,

I want to,

It'll talk about this and this.

But it felt totally like I was just receiving a gift.

And so it was almost in that point,

Like I had no option other than to bring it to fruition,

Though I wasn't attached to it happening at a certain point.

I was just like,

This is the thing in my life now.

And it sort of gave me a lot of meaning from that point on.

It's like,

This is the thing that I'm working on outside of all my other stuff.

But this is the most meaningful thing.

And it will happen.

It was almost in a way that it already existed at that point.

It's just now I have to figure out how it's going to become a tangible thing.

But in a weird question there,

Too,

Was like,

Is that also something I should let go of?

This thing happens,

And it feels really cool,

Something to create.

But maybe,

Too,

This is like a little challenge for me to let go of it and just even kind of forget about it.

And so I asked the monastery leader a couple of days later,

What are your thoughts on when you have these creative insights within the meditation?

Like,

Is it also just another thought to kind of,

Just a really seductive thought maybe to let go of?

And that's part of the practice.

And what she said was,

In samadhi,

All thoughts are lotus flowers,

Which was like a very impactful statement to me.

And samadhi,

At least my understanding of it,

Is this state of complete absorption in which you're no longer engaged in the self-conscious mind.

You're just fully a part of what's happening right now.

And so she said,

In samadhi,

All thoughts are lotus flowers.

And that,

To me,

Was like a little encouragement to take that gift and to bring it to fruition.

And so in terms of the logistics of it,

I remember writing down as much as I could while there,

Even though that was discouraged,

Too,

To be writing anything or reading anything.

I still did that.

But I wrote the title of it.

I had a little image of the cover,

Which changed like a thousand times from that point to what it ultimately turned out to be.

And then just like the kind of flow of things,

There were eight sections,

Which I think there did maybe turn out to be eight or seven.

They're almost exactly what they were,

But they changed a little bit.

But there was just a very clear flow in my mind of what it was and what it was going to be.

And then after that,

I was like outlining basically for like three or four years of just like I had those sections in mind.

And then any time I thought of something that would fall into one of these sections or another,

I would put it into this outline.

And then it got kind of ridiculous.

It was like a like a 40 page outline of just like bullet stuff.

And I think at that point I was maybe resistant to actually begin because there's something kind of scary about like actually beginning,

Which maybe brings me into the realm of fear of failure.

Like,

Well,

Maybe I can't actually do this.

So I'll just keep outlining like and then that'll be it'll lead me to the time when I actually do it.

But there was one point where I was like,

I'll just start now.

And that kind of connected me with this writing from the current thing where it's like,

Yeah,

I have all this outline and that's helpful.

But I probably threw out like ninety nine percent of what I had in the outline in terms of content,

Like the structure or the bones of it were pretty much the same.

But like the actual content was generally just coming out of the present moment without planning.

But there is,

I think,

Value to having that.

Like all of that stuff,

Too,

As long as it doesn't cripple you from actually beginning or like doing the thing,

Which I think it really can easily like cripple you from doing that,

If that makes sense.

So this was six years ago?

I want to say that's something like that.

NYU at the time?

And it's hard to like,

I would,

It might be like kind of nice to go back and really try to see what is the actual timeline of this stuff.

But yeah,

Six years,

I think it was six years ago.

I think I was not at NYU anymore.

I think I might have been at the PhD program at that point.

But hard to say.

Yeah.

How do you now,

And maybe you're able to,

I hope,

It'd be amazing.

Maybe your practice is where you're accessing Samadhi like on a regular basis,

So you have these a lot of creative thoughts coming.

But how do you decipher the call from this,

I want to say ego-fulfilling desire,

But it might not even be an ego-fulfilling desire.

It might just be like,

I kind of like this.

Is this the next thing to do?

Like,

Should I do this?

Because I think a lot of us struggle with,

I'll say for myself,

What is the next creative thing?

What wants to be birthed?

I feel like I'm a very creative person.

And so I feel like I do a lot.

But what is it that's going to make the most,

Not make the most benefit?

And I can really put that full care and energy in.

So I'm curious how you decipher the call from not the call now.

Yeah,

I wish I knew an answer to that.

I feel like that might be one that's kind of unanswerable.

Like you have to just sense it or like you have a feeling of it.

And that's also why maybe it's so hard to gain access to it because you have to trust your own sense of what I refer to as the call in the book.

Although it does seem pretty clear.

Like if I slow down and like sit with something,

Does that feel more like it's like a maybe ego satisfying thing or is something that isn't really a reflection of me,

But it maybe feels like it would be good to do or would provide maybe some money or it would provide like some status or not that there's anything wrong with those things,

But they might really they have a tendency to cloud.

I think what feels like a pure expression of the call.

And I know that was an ongoing thing through writing this book.

It's like why I'm actually writing this.

It's because it was a thing that just came to me and it felt very pure and true.

And now I want to just bring it to tangible fruition.

But all the time there was this other voice of like,

You know,

Looking into the future of I want to make the cover look cool.

So I'd spend time on the cover or think of like the ways that I might market this or like reach out to a publisher.

And I'm only like halfway through or something like that.

I would be pulled into these other things that were not actually related even at all to just the creation of it.

So maybe along the lines of that,

There's like you can just trust the act of creation and hope that if it's coming from a current space and this I don't know if this is actually true or like if this is the case,

But it seems to just be continuing to sort of work out.

But if I can just trust that the creation is coming from the current space and just keep doing that every day,

That that's what will lead to good stuff.

Or maybe the good stuff doesn't even matter.

If that's what I'm doing every day,

That's a good way of living.

Just the thing that I'm doing today,

I can gauge if it's coming from what feels like a genuine current space or if it's not.

And if it's not,

Either maybe find a way to let go of it or change it to make it be more of a current expression.

And then just trust that the rest will take care of itself in the way that it should.

And so it exists that way for the book for me right now.

Like,

So what should I be doing?

Should I be trying to like market this thing or share this thing?

And why am I doing those things?

That's like an ongoing question for me.

I do want people to experience it,

But it's a tricky thing.

Not like for any other reason than just to have you like feel this feeling that to me feels so good,

Like if I can only slow down and remember it and it feels so good to share it too.

And like I can feel like an interpersonal vibration when the other person is feeling the same thing.

And it just is a really good feeling.

And that's like my main,

I guess,

Compass in terms of what is an authentic creation versus what feels like it's more of less authentic or instrumental or like maybe ego.

Or in the book,

I use the term I-me like for the kind of ego self.

I like to not use words that are very commonly used because then it can sort of easily fall into an existing idea of what that thing is.

It's like,

Oh,

The ego.

I know what the ego is.

I've read all about it,

But then that makes it a thing.

And so like I-me is the term,

Like I is the original notion of there being some sense of an I who's separate from you,

Which is like founded in just basic language.

And then I develop a story of me on top of that.

And all of this creates this like separation from my naturalness,

Which isn't really I.

That's a word used to describe me and isn't really my name or all these things about me.

It's just like,

It's just this.

And yeah.

I love your views on creativity so much.

I wish everyone,

It's like a reminder for myself and something I want to write about somewhat soon is this idea for its own sake,

Really the process,

Like doing things because the act of doing it is fulfilling.

And I think I encourage people and I know in my own journey that I've done a lot of things that are close to like the thing that I do in some ways in different worlds,

Different kind of spheres of the same energy of personal development or growth.

And I've been able to really like,

I think it's great to do all the things because then you can start to,

You'll have more nuance.

Oh,

When I'm doing that thing,

Yeah,

I'm kind of,

Something feels a little like not,

It's good.

I'm making an impact,

But like,

It feels a little off or I come,

But I come here and I'm like,

Whoa,

Like,

This is it.

Like,

This is the thing where I'm really,

And I think,

I think it's okay to,

Yeah.

Then there's this one thing where maybe you do it and it's,

You know,

Maybe it's a good paycheck and maybe you do it because we need to survive.

And so there's like this aspect of like finding that balance and,

And,

And I also think if you had just zoned in,

Right,

On like what you said,

You just zone in on the like authentic stuff,

Then everything is taken care of.

I do believe that.

And it's- But it requires really that like letting go of knowing if it's going to come or where it's going to come from,

Which is a really challenging place to stay.

If you know,

It's probably,

We talked about this when we,

Our last conversation was like,

If I'm thinking of it,

It's probably not going to happen.

It tends to be a surprise.

Do you,

Have you heard Rick Rubin talk about creativity at all?

I,

Maybe not specifically.

I've seen some interviews that he's done with other people.

He has a book coming out in January.

I cannot wait for it,

But he's someone when I hear him,

It's just like,

This man is just so right now.

Like the dude is just like,

What are we making right now?

We're making it because it's fun.

I don't even,

I don't care who's listening,

What's listening to it.

And he's produced some of the most amazing artists and songs out there.

When I hear him talk,

Like I feel like he's in touch with what I call the current.

Yes.

And so to just like listen to an interview with him is like a little,

It's like a hiss of the current feeling.

And it's maybe really simple what he's talking about and many people can talk about it in different ways.

But I would totally say he's one.

And that's why I love watching like interviews sometimes or long form interviews and find someone that I kind of get a sense is like that.

They're just releasing the current in their own way.

And then it's like this little reminder of that thing in me.

I think one thing he's talked about with regard to music that makes a lot of sense to me is the nonsense lyrics to begin.

You just have some sort of musical rhythm feeling that feels kind of right.

And then you start just doing nonsense lyrics along with that.

And then that leads to like,

What does that kind of sound like?

And then you kind of make sense of the lyrics and then other lyrics like add on top of that.

But it came from this place where you were not in control of what was happening.

And so it becomes this really pure expression.

And I think he said even one time,

Like,

You may not find out what this song is about until like 10 years later,

Even if you're the artist of it or the maybe the meaning of it evolves like over time,

Which is really cool to me.

I also like that in terms of visuals,

Like in writing or in conversation or working with like a client,

For example,

It's one of my favorite things.

Like if a metaphor or analogy is mentioned,

Just to like sit with the visual that pops up in relation to that and allow it to happen.

And then it can provide you with this like new way of seeing things that you didn't create.

Like it's just like when you said that,

You said it felt like you were walking on a tight rope.

What does that look like to you in your mind?

And then it's like,

Oh,

I don't even well,

It did kind of look sort of a particular way.

And then it's I was talking with a client today about this.

And then like it started with just feeling like I was walking on a tight rope to the tight rope was going across a canyon.

And there are all these other people walking on their own tight ropes.

And it's like happening in different ways.

Or you might be focused on the way that someone else is walking and they're walking so much farther.

They have a better tight rope than I do.

But like,

And it's just so much more impactful and memorable than if we were talking about whatever we were talking about in a more intellectual,

Conceptual way.

And like that stuff just kind of comes out to me like from the current,

Like when I sit with this visual of the tight rope,

Everyone else experiencing this,

If they're thinking of a tight rope is seeing it in a different way.

And like you could allow that to expand for you.

And that for me is just so fascinating.

And that's like a little example of what I think creativity is.

It's like you sort of put yourself in a space and then allow it,

Whatever it is to occur.

And that's where like all the visuals for the art in the book sort of came from.

It's like,

Here's a concept.

What pops into my mind when I think about this?

And then,

Oh,

Then this visual provides new meaning to the concept that I couldn't have created,

But it's so much cooler now and like more memorable because it has this visual that just occurred out of the moment.

But I have to let go of being in control of it to receive it.

If that makes sense.

When I hear the idea of like,

If someone's connected from the current in that creation,

Like whatever they created,

The way that I see it is what people look like,

Almost like this archetypal energy that's resonant,

That it's going to mean something different to everyone,

But they all might kind of get it.

If it's coming from that place,

It's almost like each person,

That lyric means something different to me than to you,

To you.

But because I can feel it from that place,

It has that same like resonant impact.

I think that's what's so cool about like something that art in that way is like we all make different meaning.

And I know artists would say like,

Yeah,

It is.

Once you hear the song,

Like it's your song,

Right?

I know what I made it,

But it's come from that.

It might mean something totally different to me.

That doesn't mean it takes away from like what it means for you.

I want to speak,

I want to read again from your book a little bit on a line that really stuck out on this,

On exactly what we're talking about when we talk about like authentic creation.

Authentic creation in whatever form it takes is fully complete in the act itself because it has arisen from the current and it is experienced as beautiful because it reminds the beholder of the current within them.

And I just,

I think that is just,

Is like a mic drop as why art,

Movies,

Any creative thing connects with us on a deeper level.

And also just a reminder to anyone who is listening that what creation and art could look like everything like that is like you're an artist of the moment.

So,

Just to like really encourage people to whatever the work is to be able to tap into that current,

To be able to,

It's the Ram Dass.

We're all just walking each other home.

I heard David Gandelman talk about this recently and like that we're candles,

Like lighting another candle so that we just keep lighting the candle.

And so,

It's like I think this is speaking to that in its own way.

So,

Like that flame is maybe the same ultimately,

But it shows itself differently in each candle and it's like always changing.

Yes,

It's all right.

It reminds me of a quote from Carl Rogers that I shared in pretty much the beginning of the book.

That which is most personal is most general.

And it just makes me think of that too.

Like if I share what's most personal,

You might not be able to relate to it on like a conceptual level or have had experienced that same kind of thing before.

But if you get a sense that I'm really sharing it from like a deeply personal,

Vulnerable place,

Then I might be connecting to that same deeply vulnerable place within you.

And that to me is like the feeling of the current,

Like you're both tapping into the same current feeling,

Even though it looks on the surface very different,

It's the same ultimately.

And it like I feel that same thing in me because I know it's coming from that same place in you,

Even though on the surface it looks different.

Makes me think of the Tao again,

Like the first line of the Tao Te Ching goes,

At least in the interpretation that I've read a few times,

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.

So like the Tao that can be put into words or this like the thing or the current or this core thing,

As soon as it's put into words or it's made tangible or expressed in some way,

It's not the thing,

But it might be a reminder of the thing or a symbolic expression of the thing or something that can help you like get in touch with your own sense of the thing or the Tao or whatever you might call it.

That's why I also like that X and infinity,

I use that as an example in the book of a way of understanding this like the current thing and my numerator.

So a numerator and a denominator,

The numerator is like my X self and the denominator is infinity is what I refer to it as.

But that's like the current thing that's under the surface,

That's underneath all of us here in this Zoom meeting,

That's underneath anything that I can see,

It has an X label to it.

But on the denominator,

Infiniteness,

It's all the same thing.

So they all look like different things.

But if I can remember and like connect to that infinity or current place in me,

I can see it in you.

And that's like my understanding of the term namaste,

Which is like the sacred within me acknowledges and sees the sacred within you.

It's like the current,

I feel into it and I can feel into it as it's reflected through you as well,

Even though it looks different,

Like we have these different appearances and all things have these different appearances.

But maybe that's kind of like what's beautiful about the current or infinity is that it has these many expressions,

But you can never capture it and have it,

But you can see it and feel it in everything.

So Charles,

We have eight minutes left and I feel there's one topic where I really wanted to talk to you about.

And there's a part of me that was like,

Well,

Since we don't have that much time,

Maybe I won't talk about it because there's also a fear in talking about it for me.

And so,

When I think about that,

I did my little quick examination and let's go into the fear of even talking about it because that's interesting.

So,

Your hero mushroom dose journey that you share so powerfully in the book.

Now,

I feel like I'm the most researched on psychedelics without ever really taking psychedelics.

Like I've read all the books,

I watch all the videos and the movies and I know very close friends that are very in-depth in different worlds and it's all around.

And I have this incredible fear and also have the consciousness of what drugs means in the US,

Right?

Coming out of what happened in 60s,

70s and that consciousness,

I can feel it.

I could feel it from parental figures.

I could feel that.

So,

I'd love to hear kind of your,

Not to recount that journey and you can speak a few words on that,

But like,

I don't even know.

How has it impacted your journey?

And like,

Would you recommend it to those on a spiritual path?

How is it enhanced?

Yeah.

And I'll let you kind of take this in your own way because I'm fascinated because I'm interested in exploring and I'm afraid.

Yeah.

And which both make sense to me.

And that's why I also,

I don't necessarily like recommend or not recommend.

But I would say that my experience with it,

With psychedelics has been fairly invaluable in terms of facilitating my access to what I call the current.

And it's also,

As I share in the book,

That was also something where I talked about the feeling of what is right to share about or what might push somebody away or lead to a judgment or what is safest to write about versus what isn't.

But it just felt like it would be incomplete if not for sharing about that experience.

And what I share about in the book is this just like,

It was the scariest day of my life,

But it also had this like really huge impact on me,

What happened.

It felt like,

It's so hard to describe these things without them sounding cliche,

But it just felt like something I had intellectually kind of gotten and understood about there being no separate self for a really long time.

It's like,

Oh yeah,

That's a cool thing.

And that's very impactful.

And it allows me to feel a lot less pressure because I realized that we're all just part of the same thing.

But I think maybe still there was this underlying sense of there being a me that's on the path to figure out what life is all about.

But something about that day,

It was psilocybin,

Mushrooms,

And to a certain amount,

Which was about five grams of it.

And it just led to what felt like a real felt understanding of not being separate,

Which was like really amazing,

But also like really terrifying because it's like a loss of me.

Ego death is also a term,

But that to me also feels like minimizing of the experience of actually feeling no separation.

There is no label.

There are labels,

But the label doesn't mean anything.

This feels like a skin barrier between me and everything else,

But there really ultimately is no separateness.

And while I think can be very liberating,

There's also something that's potentially terrifying about that,

That might be a real block to what you might call enlightenment.

And there's a section of the book called The Existential Problem.

That's what the existential problem means to me,

This block to what you might call full contentment or liberation or awakening or enlightenment,

Because it might mean a loss of the me that wanted to be enlightened or liberated or awakened.

So there might be a really deeply holding on to that self or that ultimate suffering.

I think understandably so,

Because it might be a huge loss and shock to the system to actually genuinely lose the feeling of separation.

So that gave me a whole new lens on it in a way that ultimately I think was really helpful,

But it also did feel like a loss.

And so that leads me to neither recommend or not recommend.

To me,

It's incredibly valuable.

Up until that point,

I probably would have recommended it wholeheartedly.

But there's something about that that leads me to a little bit more of a conservative stance or more of a gentle stance.

But I heard Sam Harris describe it.

And I referenced this in the book too.

He said if meditation is like a sailboat,

Psychedelics are like a rocket ship.

And so what that experience might allow if that's something that someone wanted to pursue is like go straight to the full experience of what something like meditation on a daily basis can bring you into contact with.

And it might provide,

Like in Sam Harris's case,

He said he wouldn't have really dived into meditation if not for having seen like,

Oh,

There's something there for me to really dedicate myself to this practice too.

And that makes a lot of sense to me.

It's like they both feel very much in the same realm,

Like we're dropping into the same thing in a meditative practice.

But it's just that something like psilocybin is really the only one that I've had experience with.

But that is going to probably just drop you deeply into that same space that you might just not see or feel if you can only dedicate a little bit of time to meditation.

But I also do think if you have spent a significant amount of time in meditative practice,

It might translate itself really well to trying out something like that.

So it's like you might kind of be preparing yourself for that experience.

I put it in the book again,

Like maybe to practice meditation or something like it is to like be able to understand the language but not be able to speak it.

So like you can be in that territory or that land and it doesn't feel so familiar to you,

Even though you can't like express anything yourself,

You can still kind of understand what people are talking about.

So that's kind of how I like I feel like meditative practice is bringing me into that same place that I can just find at any moment.

Like if it brings me back to that two minute period of time,

Like it's just this is bizarre that this is happening right now,

But it's so easy to forget that.

But like psychedelic is going to throw that in my face to be like,

Wow,

Like this is bizarre and incredible and beautiful and scary.

But meditation might also remind me of that same thing too.

Charles,

Deeply,

Deeply thank you for you listening to your current and being an expression of that in the world.

I'm sure I'm not the only person on this call that feels that and has been impacted by you and your work.

It's been like the most fun I've had doing something in a long time,

Which I think says something to me because I had my own fears and trepidations going into the unknown of never really interviewing or,

You know,

Having this conversation with an audience before.

So I thank you for going there with me,

Brother.

Is there anything else you'd like to say or,

You know,

A part of me wants to do the cliche thing people do after interviews and like,

You know,

Point you to your website and things like that.

But I think people are connected and we don't have to maybe we could we could do that.

You could say definitely get his book,

Obviously,

If you haven't.

But is there any like parting words,

Things that you haven't said,

Things that feel present right now before we let people take off?

Yeah,

Not in particular other than yeah,

Thank you for inviting me to do this.

Like,

It's also something new for me.

And just like,

Thank you all for taking the time to be here and to listen to me talk.

That feels like a real gift,

Like just someone's attention is it's like the greatest gift that you could offer someone.

So thank you for that.

I guess just like one thing that I would say that I'm just I'm trying to remind myself of every day.

And it is so simple,

But just like whenever my mind is pulled into something that isn't here and it's constantly being pulled into something that isn't here,

Whether it's like fears about like paying off student loans or fears about something like a what does this mean when my when my child has this like rash or it like all this stuff is constantly collecting itself into larger things that are not actually just here right now.

And like my then in their mind is what I call it in the book is constantly trying to move me away from just what's happening right now.

But if I if I can slow down,

I can always come back to just this next thing.

And like that all is always such a relieving answer for me.

If I can just remember that there's always something that's actually just right here for me to pay attention to,

As if this was the first time that I ever paid attention to anything,

Which I think in reality,

That is actually the case.

Like this is the only time ever that I'm able to say a word or to see another person or to eat something or to take a step.

But it's so easy to forget that.

But I can always reorient to just this next action.

And if it if I can do that action from a place of the current,

Then I can just trust like each next step.

And it will lead to something that maybe is inevitably a surprise,

But it might be this like beautiful surprise that unfolds from this really genuine space that's ultimately out of my control.

So but that's just something I think of every day,

Like something happens.

I'm like,

OK,

Just come back here.

This is next thing.

And there's always something that I can pay attention to.

That's just right here.

So I just wanted to your question made me think of you're the real deal,

Brother.

You're the real deal.

And I love you for that.

Well,

Thank you,

Charles.

Thank you,

Everyone.

This has been a delight.

And yeah,

I can't wait to to I want to say do something like this again.

But I know this will never be what it was again.

And that's that's that's that's the thing.

That's the essence of something we're talking about to write that.

It's that we're you know,

I feel like this hour and a half was spent in that spirit.

And that's what I think life is about.

So thanks,

Charles,

For for being that example and for for spending this time.

Yeah,

Thank you.

Thanks for having the idea to do this.

Yeah.

All right,

Everyone.

Sending lots of love.

Have a good night,

Everyone.

Bye,

Mom.

All right.

Thank you so much for listening.

If you like this episode,

Make sure to leave a review,

Share it with a friend.

And if you haven't signed up for my lose letter,

I know it's corny.

I had to go with it.

Check out go to LouRebman.

Com and you can sign up for that.

And definitely check out Charles's work and book and all the things that he's putting out into the world.

He is,

Like I said,

The real deal.

So thanks so much for listening.

And I'll see you next time.

The music you heard is a song called Nova by River Roots.

Thank you so much for listening.

Reviews

thanks for this interview with Charles. i simply love him

Enjoyed the conversation. A couple of things really resonated with me. Thanks