Your Right To Wave Your Fist Ends Where My Face Begins
This is a talk on the fourth tradition of the twelve step groups. "each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or ___ as a whole". This tradition is primality about autonomy, and I'll discuss how it is important in recovery groups, but mostly how it can be applied to personal relationships to allow everyone freedom to make their own decisions and to grow.
Transcript
All right,
So today I will talk about autonomy,
Specifically related to the fourth tradition of the 12-step groups.
It states that each group should remain autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or whatever group as a whole.
So like I said,
This could be seen about autonomy and independence,
Creativity,
Anonymity,
Open-mindedness,
Responsibility,
A few of the principles that can be attached to this tradition,
And a quote that I read,
Yeah,
I read a quote,
Congratulations,
I know,
That really speaks to this,
Says,
You're right to wave your fist ends where my nose begins.
Not everyone's going to love that,
I'm sure,
But it's the spirit of these principles.
You know,
If I'm considering a group,
A recovery group,
You know,
It's why there's so much uniformity across any one group.
So you can go to AA in Belgium and AA in Albuquerque,
And they're going to be pretty similar.
There's going to be some,
You're going to hear the same readings,
Albeit maybe in a different language.
They're going to use the same book as a reference,
Although there's some other books,
Of course,
In the groups they could use,
But same literature and so forth.
There will be different flavors,
Certainly,
You know,
Different variations,
But there will be central tenets.
And the idea is that,
You know,
Because if you call on something AA,
It's got to be AA or else people are going to get,
Essentially,
Like,
Because this is such a serious issue,
People will be harmed by this.
If someone's really desperate and hurting and just needs to get to a meeting to feel,
You know,
To get their stuff in order,
And there's some wild things going on in a meeting that are,
Let's just say that traditions aren't being adhered to,
You know,
It could be really detrimental to their survival,
Honestly,
In truth,
You know,
Not to make it too dramatic,
But it could be.
I mean,
In most cases,
It'll probably just be,
Like,
An annoyance,
You know,
But it could be really serious.
And so this is also,
Like,
Part of what keeps these groups going,
You know,
Like,
If there were,
If there was,
Like,
Allowance to be,
You know,
Like,
All sorts of different things,
Like,
Even using different literature,
You know,
Like,
If people start bringing in other books that aren't conference approved,
It can start getting really murky,
It can start getting really murky,
And outside issues are coming in,
And things can just crumble,
Right?
So,
You know,
Like,
AA,
For that example,
Is very well established at this point,
And it would take quite a lot to tear it down,
But nonetheless,
Nothing's invulnerable.
And it matters to individual members,
You know,
It matters.
So that's where creativity comes in,
You know,
Like,
We can have different formats,
We can have,
You know,
Speaker meetings,
Topic meetings,
We can do tag meetings,
Leader shares who picks,
Or leader picks who shares,
You know,
Like,
There could be variation on themes,
You know,
Like,
There's a group I went to that was all for,
You know,
Like,
Older members,
And you had to have a certain amount of time to be able to share.
You can do all sorts of stuff,
You know,
Men's meetings,
Non-gendered meetings,
Whatever.
And this is where the responsibility comes in,
Because we do,
We have a responsibility to ourselves and to each other,
You know,
To the people that are still suffering that might come in and really need help.
You know,
Addiction can give a false sense of autonomy,
You know,
Doing all kinds of wild stuff,
Like being homeless,
It's really just a sense,
It's a sort of slavery,
You know,
Like the freedom,
The imagined freedom of being homeless,
And lacking responsibility isn't like,
Isn't like real freedom,
Because there's no power,
Like,
One in that case doesn't have much power to actually fulfill anything.
So it bears,
You know,
Like sorting out what really autonomy is,
And,
You know,
Like,
Really autonomy allows to,
Like,
Follow my own path,
Even within groups,
And without,
You know,
Like,
Imposing my will above everyone else's,
And,
You know,
It's related to the principle of anonymity,
Because we all have our own desires and views,
But it's best served that we don't allow those to interfere with our groups or relationships,
And,
You know,
Kind of like I said about the,
Like,
Being wild and being,
You know,
Like,
Living rough,
Is that,
Like,
Defiance can distort my view of autonomy,
You know,
Like,
My defiance can say,
Like,
Yeah,
Like,
Get lost,
And then think it's autonomy,
But,
Like,
Really,
I'm just being controlled by someone else,
And doing the opposite of what I'm told.
So yeah,
This can really help,
Like,
Sort out a healthy sense of what autonomy is,
You know,
Looking at these principles.
So,
Like,
I really want to talk about,
Of course,
Is this tradition applied to,
You know,
Like,
Personal relationships,
You know,
Romantic or otherwise,
And,
You know,
It might be said that in relationships,
Each of us is autonomous,
Except in matters affecting our partner,
Our family,
Or the community as a whole,
And,
I mean,
Like,
This stuff is just so,
I mean,
It can seem very radical,
I think,
Especially,
Like,
Living in a,
Like,
A very individualistic society,
Where,
Like,
A lot of the,
You know,
Like,
A lot of the belief is that,
Like,
You know,
That,
Like,
Freedom to do whatever I want,
Whenever I want,
Because I want it,
And it's,
Like,
I would suggest that that's an illusory freedom,
You know,
It's not,
Like,
A real freedom,
Because everyone's not free in those cases,
You know,
And when some people are stepping on others,
There's not really freedom,
You know,
Like,
To use,
Like,
The example of just,
Like,
Oppression,
Right,
Like,
When people were,
Like,
Literally in slave trade,
You know,
Some were free,
But others weren't,
So it's,
Like,
Not really a free group or society,
Right,
Like,
There's not really freedom going on,
And,
You know,
Like,
That's a maybe extreme example,
But nonetheless,
It's useful,
You know,
If we look into more subtle ways,
You know,
Like,
Even in relationships where if I,
One person,
Think because I'm the man,
I get to make all these decisions,
And it's,
Like,
Nope,
Like,
I'm the man,
So it's my call,
You know,
Like,
That's an oppressive system,
You know,
There's not,
Like,
I'm exercising autonomy,
But I'm,
You know,
Just,
Like,
Everyone else isn't enabled to do the same,
And I also might think that,
Like,
Autonomy means,
Like,
All I can do is whatever I want,
And it's my business,
And it's not affecting anyone else,
You know,
Like,
I might,
Like,
Go buy a new car without talking to my family,
And we have,
Obviously,
Shared income or something like this,
And I hate to break it,
But that's definitely something that affects everyone else in the group,
I,
And even if I'm the person that's making all the money,
You know,
Like,
That's not the either explicit or implicit agreement,
Probably,
Unless it is,
In which case,
Great,
I would suggest that probably there's some,
Like,
Power imbalance and dishonesty happening,
If that's the case,
If one person genuinely agrees that,
Like,
I don't have or need any power in this relationship,
You can make all the choices and decisions,
That person's definitely an act of codependency and hurting on the inside,
I'm going to say that with,
Like,
99% certainty and accuracy,
So you know,
It's,
Like,
It's really good to consider,
Like,
Can I even tell,
And,
You know,
I don't want to suggest,
I don't want to sit here and suggest that,
Like,
I'm up here on a soapbox,
Because,
Like,
This is after a process of unlearning and relearning that I can even speak of these things,
Because I completely,
Like,
All the things I just,
Except having money,
But,
Like,
All the things I just described,
Like,
That's the way I was approaching relationships,
I was,
Like,
No,
These are my decisions,
Like,
Didn't think of other people,
Yeah,
Like,
Just didn't think of the effect it had on other people,
Like,
That was my go-to,
Like,
So let me,
Let me qualify for you now before you think I'm walking on water,
And I remember after being a couple years sober,
And a guy I was working with,
Mark,
He's,
Like,
Man,
Like,
You're walking on water,
And I was,
Like,
Man,
Like,
Is that what I look like up in here?
Things have certainly changed,
Let me tell you,
It was an interesting experience,
Because I didn't yet see how much I changed,
Anyway,
Bless his heart,
Wherever he is out there,
And bless his heart,
Where I'm some,
Like,
White southern church lady in this moment,
I guess,
Anyway,
So,
Like,
Yeah,
One example of,
Like,
This,
And me not doing it right,
Is,
Like,
You know,
Moving into this new place,
I told my,
Like,
My,
I told my landlady,
Who is,
In truth,
My mother,
That my girlfriend,
My partner,
And I could pay a certain amount to rent,
And I didn't talk to my partner about it,
I was just,
Like,
Yeah,
We could pay this much,
And I'm a little bit chagrined to even admit that,
But,
Like,
The truth is,
I knew it was,
I knew it was going to be,
Like,
An acceptable number,
I knew it was something we could manage based on our mutual incomes,
But it was absolutely still something to include her in the conversation,
100%,
Like,
That's something,
It just so clearly fits,
Like,
This is a group thing,
It's affecting both our lives,
Both people should be included,
You know,
Even things like,
And my beautiful darling partner expressed this to me,
And I love her,
And I'm so attracted to her,
Because she has such good boundaries in communication,
That she's,
Like,
Man,
Like,
You always just,
Like,
Make all the food for us,
And,
Like,
I love the food we eat,
And I appreciate you cooking,
But I want to be part of this,
And,
Like,
When she said it,
I was,
Like,
Oh,
My God,
Of course you do,
Of course you do,
You know,
Like,
Everyone wants,
Like,
To take away someone's autonomy,
Like,
I feel the same way,
You know,
Like,
And for me with her,
Like,
You know,
Like,
There's been times when,
Like,
And she's such a,
Like,
She's such a kind person,
Like,
She'll just,
Like,
Do nice things around the house,
And there's some things that just,
Like,
Touch on something for me that's,
Like,
Oh,
Please,
Like,
Ask me before you do that,
Because,
Like,
It feels like it's taking away my,
Like,
Option to choose,
It feels like it's my ability to make a decision for myself is being taken away,
And for someone like me who comes from a less than ideal family system where there was,
There was just a missing ingredients as far as nurturance and things,
That,
That really can affect me,
You know,
Like,
That really can affect me,
Because it's,
It's something I've had to really work towards establishing,
And like,
Even just,
Like,
Cultivating the belief that what I have to say matters,
That my opinions matter,
That my thoughts matter,
That I'm good enough,
That I can offer anything of value,
Like,
These are things that are not just,
Like,
Taught to me from childhood at all,
I was taught things like,
You can't do this on your own,
I have to do this for you,
Because you'll make a mistake,
Like,
That was such a,
Such a prominent message for me up till forever,
Anyway,
So I've had to work on that.
You know,
Another question I might ask is,
Like,
Am I comfortable taking action if someone else disapproves?
I am not,
You know,
It's so interesting,
Like,
I can think of,
You know,
Like,
I think of,
Like,
Mentoring people,
And,
Like,
How I see that I'm able to be emotionally manipulated,
You know,
Like,
If I'm,
Like,
Giving suggestions or guidance that is,
Like,
Disliked,
Unwanted,
And then,
Like,
People take a certain tone,
I'm not gonna give it away,
But,
Like,
People take a certain tone,
I can,
Like,
It'll just,
It'll affect,
I'll doubt myself,
I'll be like,
Maybe they can't do this,
Maybe I'm suggesting too much,
And I can just,
Like,
Start to shrivel.
You know,
I was thinking a while ago about,
Like,
You know,
I've,
Uh,
I was,
Like,
A,
Like,
A very,
Like,
Low-level competitive martial artist,
Like,
Very,
Like,
Very low level,
But,
Uh,
You know,
I was pretty good at it,
But I just didn't,
Didn't go very far with it,
And,
Uh,
I was thinking if,
Like,
I had gone further,
It would have been,
Like,
Actually,
Like,
Really tough,
Like,
When I got into,
Like,
Stare-downs with people who were just,
Like,
Very angry and aggressive,
Because,
Like,
I was very,
Uh,
Affected by emotion,
Like,
Emotional displays and things like this.
Yeah,
And,
Like,
You know,
Like,
I have to consider,
Do I allow other people to make my decisions,
And do I try to make decisions for others?
You know,
These really get to the,
To the heart of it,
Or,
Or point to the heart of it,
You know,
Like,
If that's the truth,
Right,
Like,
Where my sense of autonomy is lost or not,
And in some cases,
Like,
I really do want people to make my decisions for me,
You know,
Like,
I,
You know,
Like,
There's certain things that I just,
Like,
I just get,
Um,
Stuck,
Caught up in,
Like,
You know,
Like,
Um,
Vacillating,
Going back and forth,
Ruminating on a decision,
Because I can't see the clear path,
And,
Like,
Yeah,
There's a part of me that just,
Like,
Desperately wants someone else to make the decision,
And,
Like,
It's,
It's so painful,
You know,
Like,
Because if I,
If I'm honest with myself,
Like,
You know,
Like,
Reality isn't like the school system taught us,
You know,
Like,
Every quote-unquote problem doesn't have a right answer and a bunch of wrong ones,
You know,
There's not one right answer,
You know,
Like,
And we were taught that from,
Like,
Embedded with that system of thinking since we were just little children,
To think that,
Like,
There's only one correct path,
And then to be all stressed out about it if we don't know the right answer,
Because I might fail a test,
I'm not going to college,
And then die alone and sad,
You know,
Like,
All this,
This intense pressure,
But the truth is,
Is,
Like,
If there's,
If it's so close,
Probably either decision will be fine,
And probably either one could work out great,
Like,
If I'm,
If I've looked at all the available information,
And I'm still,
Like,
Yeah,
You know what,
I'm not sure which one of these is the right path,
You know,
Obviously,
I'll pray and meditate on it,
Unless I'm,
Like,
Really spinning,
And then just pick,
Just pick one,
Just like that great scene from the movie,
Uh,
Five-Year Engagement,
Where the lead gal's talking to her friend,
She's like,
Yeah,
Like,
I don't know if I'm with the right guy,
Whatever,
And her friend's,
Like,
Happy with kids,
And she's like,
Yeah,
Like,
You just pick a cookie and take a bite,
You just go on with it,
Like,
Yeah,
It kind of is that simple,
Isn't it,
There's a bunch of cookies,
I mean,
Like,
You know,
We're not out here trying to find the perfect one,
They're all going to go bad before you do,
Yeah,
And,
You know,
Like,
Trying to make decisions for others,
Too,
Like,
That's so,
And,
You know,
Like,
When I think about it,
It's just so,
It's just so destructive,
You know,
Like,
Because it just indicates,
Like,
Feeling like I know better and better,
Somehow superior,
You know,
Like,
I tried to,
Like,
When I was early on in recovery,
I really thought I had the answers,
And,
Like,
I really tried to impose what I knew,
And,
Like,
The truth on people,
I was,
Like,
A,
I was,
Like,
Evangelizing,
Like,
I was,
Like,
Door-to-door,
I was,
Like,
Going,
Basically,
Going door-to-door,
Like,
Hey,
Have you heard,
Have you heard,
Have you heard,
And,
Like,
No one wanted that,
Like,
That's not,
Like,
That's not helpful,
You know,
Like,
I know people think that that's helpful when they do it,
Because they really believe that they're,
Like,
Saving people or whatever,
And I thought that,
Too,
Like,
I really thought,
Like,
Everyone's going to be,
Like,
Not okay if I don't take this message to them,
And,
Like,
How arrogant is that,
You know,
Like,
How arrogant,
Just,
Like,
Incredibly,
It's,
It's incredibly arrogant and myopic to think that I have the one truth in this world and that I need to make sure everyone else knows it or comes to believe it.
It's,
You know,
I,
I look back and I try to have empathy with that person I was living that way,
Because I know I meant well,
Like,
I know I really believed that I was,
I was helping,
But I was hurting,
You know,
I was hurting people and hurting myself,
You know,
Getting rejected,
Thinking,
Like,
Oh,
Like,
All these people,
Like,
What's wrong with them,
Like,
Don't they see,
Like,
This is,
Like,
I have salvation in front of them,
And I'm offering it to them,
If only they would listen,
And they won't,
What's wrong with these people,
And then,
Like,
Become bitter and think they're not deserving eventually,
And think they don't,
You know,
That they're not worth it,
And then just all kinds of toxic thinking.
Not today,
Not today,
You know,
So I think about,
Like,
Whether my relationships are affected,
You know,
By the opinions of others,
And,
You know,
That's the way that,
Like,
My autonomy is threatened and disabled,
Isn't it?
You know,
If truly I'm,
Like,
Governed by trends or fashion,
Whatever,
Then am I really acting authentically?
Am I really living in my own personal truth,
As,
You know,
We all love to say?
Not really,
You know,
Not really.
You know,
I'll suddenly become dishonest,
Not seeing what's real,
Things like this.
And,
You know,
I think about,
You know,
Certain relationships that have the most difficulty,
Right?
Like,
You know,
Like,
Where maintaining my own,
You know,
Like,
Maybe with a mentor,
With my mother,
For sure,
You know,
My kid,
In these ways I have,
And these,
I have the most difficulty,
You know,
Because there's,
Like,
Either,
Like,
A bunch of backs,
You know,
Like,
Pre-loaded conditioning around some really,
Like,
Strong attachments,
Or,
You know,
Like,
You know,
Like,
Really,
Like,
Strong attachments to wanting things to be a certain way with one,
And then,
Like,
Being in a power imbalance with a mentor,
You know,
Like,
These can be very challenging for me because of,
You know,
Like,
Deep-seated kind of,
Like,
Self-worth stuff that has been sorted out to varying degrees,
But,
You know,
It's still certain things trigger it,
You know,
Certain things trigger,
Maybe I'm less than,
Etc.
And,
You know,
It's the same in the other direction,
But opposite.
I have a lot of difficulty allowing other people,
Like,
My girlfriend,
My mom,
You know,
People I mentor,
My kid,
To have their own autonomy,
You know,
Because,
Yeah,
There's just that part of me that thinks,
Like,
Oh,
Like,
If I don't do this for them,
If I don't show them how to do it,
Then they're not going to be able to do it right,
Or they're going to get hurt.
And,
Like,
You know,
I just,
Like,
That was,
That was so what I got as a kid,
You know,
Like,
That was so how I was,
That's the experience I got,
You know,
Like,
I wasn't allowed to fall on my face,
And it caused me so much pain.
It caused me so much pain,
And I missed so many lessons.
And,
You know,
I know,
I know that caregiver was just doing their best and thought they were doing the right thing,
But,
Man,
It hurt,
It still hurts,
You know,
It still hurts.
And so I just try to do it differently,
You know,
I try to learn from,
Like,
That's why things like this are so valuable to me,
Because it,
It's not something that I just,
Like,
Learned how to let people make their own decisions.
It's not something that was just,
Like,
I didn't have this modeled,
I didn't know what this looked like.
I saw control and grasping and clinging modeled,
And that's what I learned to do as well.
And so things like this can guide me,
They can point me in the right direction.
Equity,
Equality,
Autonomy,
You know,
Yeah,
It just allows me to follow my path and allows others to follow theirs,
You know,
Like,
My wants can so much get in the way of it,
You know,
Like,
What I want for this person,
Me,
Can,
Yeah,
I can get in the way of allowing other people to have their own reality.
You know,
I wanted my kid to be a kickboxer,
And they did not like it.
I wanted my kid to be a weightlifter,
And I made them cry training them.
They did not like it.
They might never exercise again because of what I did to them.
And I think of these things,
And,
You know,
I think about,
I tried to impose,
You know,
Like,
Vegan ethics on my kid,
And they were not liking it.
And,
You know,
I stopped for the last few years,
And guess who's a vegetarian now?
That's right.
So people are going to do what they're going to do if it's right for them.
So people are going to do what they're going to do if it's right for them.
I don't need to,
I don't need to manipulate or guide.
And,
You know,
Like,
You might think,
Like,
Oh,
But as a parent,
I need to X.
It's like,
You know what,
Though?
Like,
I would challenge you to think about that a little more.
People,
We,
Like,
There's certain levels of protection we need to do for our kids.
We need to protect,
Nurture,
Support,
You know,
Things like this.
But they're their own people.
And for them to grow up strongly,
They have to be allowed to be that.
All right.
May he be well,
And may these principles guide you today.
