Shame & Her Sisters

In this episode of The Regroup Hour, we touch on areas that may feel challenging. We explore aspects of our own responses to shame and the associated emotions that connect with it. We traverse the landscape of shame to see how we can hold ourselves with ever-deeper compassion. Our attention today is focused on how we can normalise the feelings we associate with shame - to better support ourselves. We begin with a short grounding practice to create a compassionate base for the discussion.
Music by Angus McLeod

Transcript

Welcome to The Regroup Hour,

The podcast that's all about how we make and manage change by building a bedrock of self-care.

Self-care that comes from self-awareness and self-compassion.

This is a gentle hour-ish to take some time out for yourself to simply be and see whatever this time brings.

It truly is an opportunity to regroup.

If you're watching this on YouTube,

You might think I'm looking slightly dishevelled.

And that's partly because I'm recording this intro again.

And I'm having to record it again because for some unknown and bizarre reason,

My mic didn't work when I was doing the main recording with the wonderful Susan McCully.

And so here I am slightly dishevelled re-recording the intro for you so that I can get it over to Angus and we can get it out into your wonderful ears.

And this conversation is a really tender one.

It is all about shame.

And I've called it Shame and Her Sisters because it's also about a whole series of other emotions as well.

And when Susan and I thought about recording this together,

We agreed to focus our attention on how we can normalise shame and also how we can learn to differentiate her from her sisters,

From the other emotions that can crowd us,

That can feel a little overwhelming.

And really the principle of this whole episode is that the more we can identify what we're feeling,

The less we are identified by those feelings.

And it's actually something that Susan wrote to me in an email.

And I just thought it was a really wonderful way of phrasing it.

So I'm also really pleased because I now know,

Having had the conversation,

That one of the things that we are sharing with you is a grounding and orienting piece of work that Susan shares with us right at the outset and a bit of settling of our second chakra,

Which as she says is where shame can hang out.

So it's a really important process actually,

Because we're dealing with something which is very tender and shame by its very nature is hidden and secret and feels shameful.

It's important that we care for ourselves in the moment of even exploring it.

And I've been mindful of that as well,

As Susan and I have been preparing for this episode,

I've definitely been mindful for myself as I've reflected on things that I carry shame about or am processing my shame about.

I have been mindful of what that experience has been like for me.

And I've been very careful with myself during that.

So the invitation here is to be careful with yourself,

To care for yourself.

So one of the things that is really fascinating about this whole topic of shame is that research shows that there are around 34,

000 different emotions.

I mean,

What an enormous number that is.

And these are broken down very often into a set of primary emotions and then underneath each of those primary emotions are a cluster of other emotions that become ever more delicately refined as you go sort of deeper through them.

And an American psychologist,

Dr.

Robert Plutchik,

He proposed that there are eight primary emotions that serve as the foundation for all others.

So he talks of joy,

Sadness,

Acceptance,

Disgust,

Fear,

Anger,

Surprise,

And anticipation.

And interestingly shame doesn't feature there.

Shame isn't seen as one of the primary emotions,

But it sits somewhere with sadness,

With disgust,

With fear,

Maybe a little bit of anger as well.

And while it's hard to understand all 34,

000 emotions as distinct experiences,

We can learn how to identify these primary emotions and what sits underneath them.

And in fact,

Just sort of becoming more familiar with some of the language that we're using.

And that's one of the things that Susan and I talk about,

This kind of lexicon of emotion becoming more and more familiar with that also is part of what enables us to experience or notice when an intense feeling comes up and create a little bit of space between us and it,

What Victor Frankel calls the space between stimulus and response.

And gradually as we practice that,

And particularly when we practice that,

When we're feeling calm,

When we're not feeling so triggered,

Not right up in that triggered fight,

Flight,

Freeze,

Response,

That's what then enables us to manage more easily.

I have inverted commas around that word.

When we are in a triggered state and particularly,

I think what it helps us do is recover more easily from having been in a triggered state because the very essence of a trigger is that we are up there in our amygdala,

We're reacting,

We're not responding mindfully.

But understanding these emotions and the subtlety of them and the multi-layered aspect of them is one of the things that can help us recover more quickly,

Perhaps be better prepared when a trigger does occur,

That kind of thing.

And as you'll hear,

There are different interpretations of what these primary emotions are.

So the Gottman Institute have a slightly different set of primary emotions,

But the principle is always the same,

That within those primary emotions,

There's a whole collection of other things going on and understanding them is what enables us to take a step toward moving through those feelings without being driven by them.

And just as the last point,

Really,

Susan and I come to a really,

What I found to be a very beautiful and very moving conclusion in the conversation.

And I really hope you enjoy listening to this interplay really between myself and Susan.

And I would really love to hear your thoughts once you've had a listen.

All right,

Take care.

Say hello again,

My darling.

Hello.

Hello,

Honey.

It's so funny,

This thing,

Isn't it?

Because clearly we've already said hello,

But now we have to say hello again because we're on film,

We're recording,

But it feels so lovely to say hello twice.

And in the intro,

I talked about how tender this topic is and the importance of working with it in a very delicate and mindful way.

And I mentioned that you may take us through a grounding exercise.

And obviously that then sparked the thought that we just shared before we started recording about the fact that actually how important it is to have all of these different tools,

So tools like the one that you're going to share with us that we can use at any time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well,

Given the nature of shame,

It disconnects us.

And so this is why I thought just beginning our conversation with connecting ourselves to ourselves and to each other,

Reminding ourselves of our exquisite humanness.

And so wherever you are,

Whether you are sitting in a chair or maybe you're walking or maybe you're driving,

If you are,

That's totally fine.

You can do this.

And just feel your feet.

So I like to drop my heels down.

You might even be able to hear it in my microphone.

You can drop just,

But that's that feeling of grounding.

If you're standing,

You can use more of your body weight.

You might even just rock yourself in your chair and just feel your substance,

Feel your weight and allow yourself to get detailed about what you feel.

So allow yourself to maybe even wiggle your toes a little and feel that yes,

You have 10 toes,

Not just a foot blob,

But 10 toes and that different parts of your feet may feel differently in shoes or if you're barefoot or in socks or something.

Yeah.

You just notice the details allows us to be more present in the body.

And then take your hands together and rub them,

Rub them pretty vigorously.

I'm going to do it right in your mind,

My microphone,

So you can hear.

So get some heat and energy between your hands and do it enough so that you really feel some warmth between your hands.

What we're going to do is take the hands and make them into a triangle.

So your thumb and your index finger make a triangle and then place that right at your low belly.

So this is right at your sacral chakra,

An energy center.

It doesn't matter if you know anything about that,

Your chakra system,

But it's the energy of creativity,

Sensuality,

Sexuality,

But the shadow side of this chakra is shame.

And so we're just giving some energy to this center to allow ourselves to relax and be in the light side of this chakra.

And let's do it again,

Just rubbing your hands together.

Get some warmth,

Get some energy between them.

This time we're going to take our hands to the back of this chakra center.

So at the low back at your sacrum.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

So just yeah,

Good.

Yeah.

Taking some breaths and feeling your own support of yourself here.

So this is very specific to the conversation we're going to have today.

I'm going to show you one other thing that is more general that is also helpful when we start to feel disconnected.

So taking,

Getting some warmth again between your hands.

I think it's just because it's a chilly morning that I want to do.

And take one palm to your forehead and one palm to the low,

To the back of your skull.

So right at the place where your skull and your neck connect.

And so what this is doing is it's linking up your lower brain,

The limbic brain where fear resides and your prefrontal cortex where reason and language and expression connect.

And so by doing this,

It also centers us in the body.

It gives us sensation,

But it is very much a way of allowing the brain to integrate.

Yeah.

So as we're talking today and you're listening,

If you notice yourself feeling that scrambled or disconnected,

Even triggered feeling,

You can use any of these practices to ground in the body and come back to yourself.

Beautiful.

That particularly,

The one with the hands at the back really resonated with me right now today.

And I think that's part of all of this kind of work,

Isn't it?

Just notice what feels really beneficial for you in this moment and that's okay.

And it might be different in another moment and that's okay.

And just reflecting back,

I shared with you that I'd had a really terrible night's sleep.

I quite often seem to say that on the podcast,

But I do sleep quite well,

But I think maybe there's something,

I don't know,

Whatever it came up.

I had all the fears,

Came home to roost and they were flying around me.

And actually that feeling of holding myself on my lower back,

That would have been really deeply comforting last night in bed because that weight then of your base coming down into your hands and just that feeling of being held releases oxytocin.

It makes us come into that caregiving system as well as doing the work that you've just described around grounding us.

Yeah,

We're mammals.

We are mammals and we are wired to respond to warmth and touch.

I mean,

That is in our makeup.

I mean,

That's in the way that we're designed.

So that's why,

That's sort of the reason that that can be helpful.

And I also really appreciate,

I just want to underscore that what is helpful today may or may not be helpful tomorrow,

Which is part of the reason that we explore a variety of different practices so that we have them available when we need them.

And I think there's something around what you just reflected on around that we're animals,

We respond to these very primal experiences of holding ourselves.

And I know that one of the reflections that you had around shame is that it is a primal emotion.

Super primal,

Yeah.

And that we all feel it.

Right.

Right.

Shame is really the fear of not belonging,

Not being loved.

On a very basic level,

This is a feeling of existential need,

Right?

And so that fear of being abandoned or excluded in our ancestry would have been the difference between life and death.

And so this is rarely the case now.

And yet we still feel that way.

It still feels that way.

So when I was reflecting on this,

I think one of the first thoughts that came up for me is,

You know,

We begin this process of reflecting how is it for me?

And then what do we observe?

And it was the phrase,

If they knew this,

Whatever this is,

If they knew this about me,

Then they wouldn't speak to me,

They wouldn't care about me,

They wouldn't love me.

And then from there you come into the,

I am unlovable,

I am separate.

And so it is a place of isolation.

Yes.

Yes.

And that's why it feels so awful because to your point in,

You know,

Our ancient animal brain,

That part of us,

You know,

When we're isolated and we're alone,

It's harder to survive.

Right.

It's this tenderness,

This deep,

Deep tenderness.

Right.

Yeah.

And I think that this is what happens is that if we have something that we feel shame around or that we have been encouraged to feel shame around,

Which we'll talk about,

Then we generalize.

So there's this thing and which we all have this thing that we're sure that if anybody,

If everybody knew that we would be alone.

And then we generalize,

We make it pervasive that,

And because of that,

The whole thing is,

My whole existence is rejection worthy.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we take it from this one,

Maybe this one act or this one attribute,

Because often we can feel shame about attributes that we have as well as things that we do.

And then we extrapolate that out and say,

It's the whole of me.

Yeah.

I think that's such a,

Such a good point.

And that's when,

When we can sort of go right,

Sort of deep inside it.

There was something as well,

I mean,

I know we're only just sort of getting into the conversation,

So this might be a little early to be bringing in something like this,

But it's come up,

I'm going to share it.

That I feel that this is not just about us being afraid of being shunned by others,

But back to your word existential,

There's this existential component to it as well,

That we shun ourselves.

That it's almost as though sometimes we're too frightened to see the truth of a situation.

We kind of,

And we wrap it up in other things,

Maybe shame,

Maybe guilt,

Maybe embarrassment,

Maybe other emotions.

And it's a way of kind of separating it from ourselves because if we acknowledged it as part of us,

Then we would have to reject ourselves.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Is there something in there?

Yeah,

I think so.

I think what came to me as you were saying that is something that many of us may have heard when we were young,

Which is you should be ashamed of yourself.

And internalize that thought.

Yes,

Yes.

And we then,

So then,

So if shame is about rejection,

Then it's not just that someone outside of us is rejecting us,

But that we should be rejecting ourselves.

Yeah.

And I think that that in a larger sense is often what can happen is in my experience when I was reflecting on the feelings of shame that I have had,

It is very often it is coming from my culture,

From my family,

From a larger culture society that whatever this thing is that I think say do am is not acceptable.

And so it is a way of sort of aligning myself with the people around me.

Right?

Yeah.

So spot on.

Because,

So one of the things that I see with clients and work through a lot with clients is how even the things that don't serve us from our childhood,

From our original family system,

To reject those is like saying,

I reject my family.

I reject that person even when our relationship with that person might be complex and challenging or even toxic.

On a very base level,

We don't want to be isolated from the family unit going back to our ancient brain.

And so we retain this connection.

And actually,

I think that's a really beautiful observation,

Susan,

That even the things that we are carrying with us that may be informing the stuff that we feel ashamed about,

We hold onto it because it's a way of holding onto our connection with whatever we've learned in the past.

Yes.

Yes.

That's interesting.

Gosh.

So just to let everybody know,

It's like nine o'clock where Susan is right now.

So this is like,

This is her morning.

Good morning to me.

It's the middle of the afternoon for me.

I'm warmed up into this conversation.

If you're watching,

I've got my warm beverage to soothe myself through this.

I think that one of the things that's important to,

And one of the things that I'm just so grateful that we decided to talk about this is that shame loves secrecy.

Shame thrives in silence.

And this is a lot of what I understand about shame comes from Brene Brown,

Who is a world famous researcher who among other things has studied extensively shame.

And when I heard her say that,

The truth of that felt so resonant to me is that not only do I have this toxic feeling about this whatever I'm feeling ashamed about,

But the essentialness of silence around it.

And so I think it's really important to be talking about it and not just talking about it,

But talking about how we can discern the differences between shame,

Guilt,

Embarrassment,

The things that can be tangled up.

And as we pull those things apart,

We can look at them and take care of them rather than being so identified with them.

Rather than be so entwined within it as well to be able to create a little bit of spaciousness.

There was a thought that arose there.

I think that that work that Brene Brown has done as well,

We can share a link to her recent podcast about shame,

Which really tackles some very,

Very big topics within it and helps create like a lexicon,

Create a sort of language around shame as well to ease the conversation.

And I think one of my reflections as I listened to you there,

Susan,

Is that sometimes it's not necessary to talk about the specific.

Sometimes it's not necessary to bear our soul and say,

This is what I feel ashamed of,

But simply to be able to talk about the topic of shame.

Even that can be incredibly useful for us as individuals to explore how does it feel when I feel ashamed.

And that can ease us into being able to explore what makes us feel ashamed and how we want to respond to that just internally.

Does that make sense?

I see this often with retreats actually.

So when I have a group of women together,

And I'm sure you see this with the work that you do as well,

That often it's easier for people to talk in generalities.

And even doing that is incredibly powerful because it sets the thought process in motion inside our heads.

And so we can do it in a really safe way.

And so picking up on what you said about this distinction between these different emotions,

Shame,

I think you said,

So shame is I am bad.

And that's,

That's Brené's sort of definition.

Shame is I am bad.

And it's a,

That's it.

There's no shifting.

Yeah,

It's who you,

It's part of who you are.

And it's inextricable from who you are as opposed to guilt,

Which is I have done something bad.

I am a good person who has done something bad.

And for me,

There is so much space between those two that shame leaves me nowhere.

There's nothing I can do about who I am and what I am.

And guilt allows me to make a different choice,

To do something differently in the future going forward.

Tara Brack talks about this as well.

And her stance is that guilt can actually be a really useful emotion because it helps us make amends.

It helps us see,

Or did I speak sharply?

Did I not do the thing that I said I was going to do?

You know,

Did I let somebody down?

And to then apologise or to make sure that next time you do do it.

It's the,

It's the internal mechanism of helping us be a good citizen,

I suppose,

You know,

Be a good,

Yeah,

Of your family.

Re-calibrate,

Right?

Yeah.

Is to say like,

Oh,

Right.

And that's not the way I want to be.

And that feels very different than somehow who I am at my core is not okay.

And so I'm thinking about my own experiences can be behaviours,

But they can also,

There was,

There has been in my life,

A lot of connection with body image or the kinds of things that feel,

You know,

What,

How much can I really do about the way that my,

That I,

My physical body shows up in the world.

And there can be for me this sort of panicky feeling of there's nothing I can do about it.

That I'm being rejected and there's nothing I can do about it.

And that's similar if I am like,

I'm an angry person or I'm an unkind person and there's nothing I can do about it because that's just the way I am.

That feels so different than I am a good person who has made a different,

You know,

A choice that I want to make differently in the future.

Beautiful that because anything that defines us by I am,

Then implies that,

That nothing can change about it.

I think that's,

That's a really thank you for that,

That,

That really helped inform something for me around that distinction with shame and how shame then leaves us feeling stuck.

And when we're stuck,

It can be really hard to see what can,

Can shift us out of that.

So it feels like there's,

There's something here around what can we do to identify perhaps what other emotions are going on around it so that we can extricate ourselves from the feeling of shame and go,

Oh,

Hang on a minute.

Maybe there's something more subtle going on here,

Or maybe there's another emotion that's showing up.

And I know I shared with you about the Gottman wheel,

So the Gottman Institute and their specialists in relationship,

Particularly between couples,

But also relationships just generally.

And one of the things that they've created is the Gottman wheel.

And I'll,

Again,

I'll share a link to that as well.

And it just helps to illustrate how different emotions can be broken down or can be made up of a series of different feelings that sit inside them.

And so you know,

Shame includes potentially,

I don't have a copy of the wheel in front of me.

That would have been useful.

I don't know if you do,

Do you Susan?

Oh,

Look at that.

As if by magic.

And so there's,

You know,

Can you see on there what they've identified?

Right.

So I appreciate this too.

So the one that I'm wondering if I've got the same one,

But it's the same idea that there are core emotions of fear,

Love,

Anger,

Sadness,

Surprise,

Joy.

Like those are sort of the big kahunas,

Right?

And then underneath each one,

There are sort of underlying emotions.

So I'm thinking,

So let's see,

Shame shows up under,

Let's see,

Oh,

Under sadness,

Which makes some sense to me,

Right?

But it could also be despair or a feeling of neglectedness,

Disappointment,

Suffering of some sort,

Right?

So very interesting this when,

As you know,

Several months ago,

I had a serious break in my foot.

And I was in a non-weight bearing situation for almost two months.

And it was really challenging.

And I felt ashamed for being injured.

That's what I articulated,

That I felt ashamed for being injured.

And yet when I look at this,

I'm like,

Oh,

No,

I'm sad.

I'm suffering.

I'm disappointed about what I'm missing,

Right?

And yeah,

There might be some shame in there too,

But it really shifted it when I can look at it from this perspective.

So yeah,

I think that most of us,

Our emotional vocabulary is woefully,

Woefully simple and very broad brush and really doesn't get at what we're really experiencing.

So I find this to be really helpful.

Oh,

The limitation of language.

And I think there's also something in the intro,

I talked about how this conversation or this work of understanding,

You know,

A thing like shame is particularly useful when we're triggered.

Because when we're triggered,

Everything gets incredibly straightforward.

Am I going to bite the thing?

Am I going to run from the thing?

Or am I going to hide from the thing?

And that's it.

We go down to,

You know,

There are three options.

We're all going to do one of them.

And what we're talking about here is understanding that subtlety of our experience.

And so I'm reflecting here about,

So a time when I was,

I got into a taxi,

It was filled with my peers.

There was one seat left.

It was a London cab.

So quite a lot of us packed in there with all of our bags.

We were going off to do a big presentation,

400 people,

Everybody's,

You know,

Suited and booted.

And I get into the cab and I go into the worst hot flush I have ever experienced.

It's winter.

So we're all wrapped up and the cab has got the heating on and I am generating vast quantities of heat and sweat.

And I'm so sorry for sharing this because even as I say that word,

God,

How shameful that is for a woman to admit that she was sweating.

I was literally dripping water from my face.

My peers were all younger,

Mostly men.

It was shameful.

I felt ashamed.

And the reason I felt ashamed is because I thought the reason why I was sweating so much was because I was so overweight.

So I managed to turn a really,

You know,

Sort of,

Well,

A challenging situation into something that felt utterly kind of crippling inside.

Because as soon as I attached it to weight,

That is shameful to be so fat that you can't stop sweating.

I mean,

That's where my head was going.

And so just thinking about that circle with the emotions,

The Gottman circle,

You know,

What was I actually feeling there?

It wasn't shame.

It was,

Oh,

It was,

Well,

It was my little girl.

It was my inner child was worried that people were going to judge me.

So it was,

There was a bit of fear in there.

Embarrassed?

Embarrassed.

Embarrassed.

Oh,

Sad that I was sitting there sort of feeling all alone,

Even though I was in such a packed space.

And even as I talk about this now,

Like everything in my body has shifted when I go,

Oh,

My poor darling.

As opposed to what I said when I said about sweating.

And I said,

Oh,

I'm so sorry for saying that.

Cause that's,

That again was,

That's the shame response.

So it can show up in like in,

In little moments.

And obviously in enormous moments,

But yeah,

So,

So reminding ourselves of the,

The expansiveness of our emotions,

All 34,

000 of them,

According to some research.

Yeah.

Who knew?

That feels like a really practical tool that we can use.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that expanding our vocabulary and investigating,

Not just the words for that,

The emotions,

Although I do think that that is hugely helpful,

But also what does sadness feel like as opposed to shame physically?

How does that land in your body?

So we could take a moment,

Right?

Like,

So we all have something that we felt ashamed about and and bring that up.

Don't make,

Maybe not the biggest,

Hugest thing that's ever happened,

But,

But something that you kind of was kind of winced at,

Let's say.

And what does that feel like in your body?

Where,

Literally where do you feel it and what do you feel?

Just take a moment,

Just bring it up and maybe it's your situation,

Henny,

Or,

Yeah.

So yeah,

For me,

I feel when I'm,

When I feel the,

My shame response lands in the center of my body and it feels very solid.

That's my personal experience,

But it feels very heavy and unmovable.

So I've got,

I felt my shoulders fold in as I came into it and I felt the feeling,

I actually felt my heart start to pound.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

So then,

Yeah,

Yeah.

And,

And so,

So I'm going to,

I was thinking of this situation where I identified it as shame,

But when I,

When I really investigated,

It was suffering.

I was suffering.

And,

And you said you were,

You were feeling sad,

Right?

Is that right?

So,

So let's feel that.

So if I think of that situation and think of,

Of the suffering of that,

That lands in my body very differently.

There's a,

When I think of that particular suffering,

I feel a tenderness.

Like I want to hold myself,

Like we did at the beginning,

Like give myself some support and,

And that feels very different than,

Oh,

You're so uncoordinated.

And so,

You know,

There's something about the blame,

I think maybe too,

With shame.

Like not only you've broken,

You've had this injury and it's your fault.

Yeah.

You're fat and sweating and it's your fault.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And and so,

So I think that that these two,

These things are,

These things are intertwined.

The vocabulary,

The investigation,

I love this,

The wheel,

To just say,

Just sort of kind of flip through and say,

Do I feel lonely?

No,

No.

See,

That's not,

That's not it.

Do I feel sorrow?

Oh yes.

Sorrow.

Yeah.

So that,

And then beginning to be able to connect with the physical sensation with the emotion that,

That we're feeling and that can allow us to more quickly tend to ourselves in a skilful way.

And the word that just resonates so strongly for me around this shift into,

Well,

How does sorrow feel or how does,

How does being sad feel,

Is compassion.

It makes me feel more compassionate toward myself.

And I also loved again,

That word skilful because there's something skilful about saying I feel,

And there's a big distinction between I am and I feel.

Yes.

Because it's also,

We can add the words sometimes,

Sometimes I feel.

And that just helps us again,

Sort of increase this separation between us and the feeling,

The emotion.

I know has different schools of thought about how feelings and emotions are very different things.

And we,

For many of us,

We use the same word for the two,

If you saw what I mean.

And just creating a bit of separation between us and our emotions or our feelings is the thing that enables us to be able to see we are not it.

It is a passing feeling.

Yes.

Yes.

Right.

And so that's like the difference between shame,

I am bad and guilt.

I did something bad.

The other words that one of my meditation teachers use is this is sorrow,

Or this is what sorrow feels like right now.

Right.

And that again,

Gives us that ability to witness,

Observe ourselves and actually act as friends,

Caretakers of ourselves,

Rather than being this enmeshed and solid,

Unchanging,

Unchangeable.

Coming back to your phrase there,

The distinction between I am bad and I did something bad,

Is even a I am bad and I feel bad.

Yeah.

And actually that just as I listened to you and I sort of thinking about that experience of being in the taxi,

I felt bad and that's okay.

It's also then how we can use this self-awareness to help us move through the moments when it arises.

So I think the other thing that comes with shame is that it can be a hot flush,

It can be a sort of the embarrassment,

That sense of like,

And actually using our breath to be able to calm that down can be incredibly powerful.

So not only holding our body,

But coming into our body just with our breath.

I mean,

Our breath we can use for so many different things and just so vital that we don't try and resolve these sensations just in our heads because so much of the storytelling is sitting up there.

So if we stay up in our heads and we can think,

Oh,

I really shouldn't be feeling ashamed because feeling ashamed is bad.

And then we can have,

But you are bad and the thing can start in its process again.

I think also shame hangs around is my personal feeling.

So when we were preparing for this and also holding ourselves lightly in preparation for this,

I was very conscious of that as I was exploring this topic for myself was treading lightly with myself and being aware that there are stories of things that I've done as an adolescent,

As a young adult,

That I still carry a sense of shame about.

And so these stories of shame,

They can come from our family unit,

They can come from our society,

They can come from our culture,

From our conditioning and it can feel quite hard to shake them off or to move on.

And so I'd quite like to explore this idea of,

You know,

How does shame serve us as well?

Because I,

Or what,

How can,

Maybe it's how can we use this self-awareness,

This exploration of the language of emotion in order to be able to see what it is that this feeling of shame is trying to bring to us that is actually beneficial.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

And,

Oh,

That's genius.

So the two things that come up for me was,

As you were talking,

Is that so much of what we feel shame around is the water that we're swimming in.

And it's just like the fish.

It can be difficult to recognize the water.

And I think that it's one of the gifts of our willingness to look is to say,

Oh,

Like it's,

I've been swimming in the water of thinness or whiteness or affluence or education or whatever it is in the water that I'm swimming in.

Oh,

Like that's what makes me acceptable or lovable or,

And again,

Separating that from truth or,

You know,

Like that,

That is just the water.

That's the water.

Then the other thing that I just love this feeling of like all of the strong emotions that can move our behavior are ones that are attempting to protect us.

Right.

Yeah.

So,

And see how we could get that protection perhaps another way.

Yes.

Yes.

And yes.

And yes.

And yes.

That,

So which part of us can we call on to support us in this feeling of shame?

Oh,

I like that very much.

So being able to,

So in as first aid,

To be able to call on our compassion as a step one,

Coming out of the body,

Feel the compassion.

And then step two is what part of us can help us move through this experience and show us the thing that we're trying to learn?

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So when I think for myself and the fact I've got,

I've got a lovely example of,

I was a light example.

I was doing a,

An Instagram live with my publisher and I've just about managed to learn how to learn how to say publisher without saying it in a silly voice.

And I,

Because until now I'd say my publisher because it felt uncomfortable.

Yes.

Imagine you having a publisher that that can't possibly be a real Exactly.

So I can,

The only way I can own that is with a silly voice.

But anyway,

I did a live with Carl and everything went wrong.

There were a whole load of mitigating circumstances as to why everything went wrong,

But everything went wrong.

And so I felt myself experience this sense of shame essentially.

What would others think?

Oh,

I'm no good at this.

Oh,

This is,

This is going to look bad.

This is going to be bad for the book.

You know,

All of this thing.

I'm watching my ego squirm.

And what was really lovely about that experience afterwards was I was then able to,

I watched the shame arise and I was then able just to step to one side and go,

Okay,

So what are you showing me?

What is it my darling?

What are you showing me?

Yes.

What she was showing me was that my ego was really frightened that the man was going to like me and,

You know,

And so it put up all of this defence,

This kind of irritation and frustration and then got wrapped up in the shame.

And,

And so just being able to,

For me often it is a bit of a,

Like it's a body swerve.

We can just pull ourselves out,

Just put ourselves away and go,

Okay,

So what is going on here?

I think that's really,

I hadn't really sort of mapped those different components because I think it is important that there's no part of us that we reject.

Yes.

Right.

So yeah,

I think that that for me is huge,

Is you were saying before,

Like I feel bad or I'm feeling ashamed and shame is bad.

Shame is bad.

So I mustn't feel this way.

And so go away shame,

Right?

Yeah,

No.

I think that,

That any time,

I mean,

Really everything that,

All of the emotions,

All of the,

What can feel like badness,

Right?

I was actually looking at the circle and I was thinking they've got the core,

Six core emotions,

But I was like sort of thinking you could just say bad and good,

Right?

And you know,

You could say anger,

Fear,

Sadness,

Bad,

Joy,

Love,

Surprise,

Good.

Right.

And so if you,

Any time that we feel those things,

There is something that is perhaps in a unskillful way attempting to help us.

And,

You know,

If you look at that situation,

I love that's a great example because I've been in situations like that,

That this is,

This reflects on me or it's going to ruin everything.

It's going to,

That's one of the things that comes up in my head.

It's like,

Everything's ruined now.

It's all ruined.

My book's ruined.

The publisher,

Poor Carl,

He's ruined now.

And it's all my fault.

And it's all my fault because I did this whole thing just was completely messed up.

And I messed it up.

Right.

And man,

I just got really into that.

But that's what goes on.

And then being able to unpack that and say,

Oh,

It's that I care about this.

This matters to me.

If this didn't matter to me,

I wouldn't feel any of this.

Right.

Oh,

Yes.

If this didn't matter to me,

Then I wouldn't be feeling any of this.

And so being able to sit with it,

We're coming back in the beautiful way of conversation back to the beginning,

To be able to hold it tenderly in our hands and to say,

If this didn't matter to me,

Then I wouldn't be feeling any of this.

But let's just see what it is here that truly matters.

Go on.

Yes.

That's it.

That's it.

It's made me feel a bit emotional,

Actually.

Mm-hmm.

Me too.

It really has.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just to see.

Oh.

Just to see what is it inside it that truly matters.

Right.

And as I start to scan back as to the things that I have felt shame around,

It's often it matters to me that I'm included.

It matters to me that I am,

That I belong.

But it also can be,

It matters to me that you really see me and not my sweating self,

Not my injured self,

Not something that isn't really the essence of me.

Right?

So the word here,

I feel,

Is values.

Yes.

Yeah.

What is it that we value or that is one of our values that is being oppressed,

Ignored,

Shunned?

Yeah.

Overlooked.

Overlooked.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Compromised.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

And very often that is at the essence too is if the water I'm swimming in gets me to do,

Say,

Think things that do not align with my values,

And then that can bring up the shame of like,

I should have known better.

That's not who I am.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I agree.

I think really looking,

That feels like a really good question for me to refer back to.

When I feel shame,

What in this situation matters to me?

What are my values in this situation?

What is being shunned or ignored?

Or,

Yeah,

Sent underground in some way.

Yeah.

Compromise.

That's a good word for yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

Gosh,

I had no idea we were going to reach this point and a point that felt,

Well,

For the two of us,

Very powerful.

And also that there can be a purposeful,

Practical,

Compassionate stance or action that we can take rather than.

.

.

So it's important to feel,

It's important to notice and then to say,

And what here is truly important.

Right.

What really matters to me?

And why is this showing up?

Yeah.

Right.

Gosh,

I just love talking with you.

Such a joy.

I'm glad that you're willing to keep coming back.

I always love,

I get a little email from Henny,

You guys.

I get this like,

Oh,

Darling,

Darling,

I've got another thought.

I've got another conversation we need to have.

Do you fancy joining me?

And I get a very resounding Hell yeah.

Across the water.

Oh,

Darling,

And hell yeah.

Beautiful.

Thank you so much,

Susan.

Such a joy,

Henny,

Always.

Yeah.

And we,

Yeah,

I do encourage people to look into Brene Brown's work.

This has been tremendously transformative to me.

And a great place to start actually is her,

I think it was her very first TED Talk,

Which was about shame.

And it really looks at the basics of her research into shame and is a great beginning place.

And for me,

It was just mind blowing.

So let's put that in the notes as well.

Yeah,

Will do.

And that connection between shame and vulnerability.

Oh,

Yes.

Being Brene.

Wonderful.

Yes.

So thank you.

And next time.

Until next time.

We already got a plan.

Yeah.

Well,

I had no idea that our conversation was going to bring us to such lovely reflections,

Realizations,

Resonance and tears.

Talking with Susan is it's just glorious how the conversation can move and flow and just find its own end point.

Thank you so much for listening.

Thank you so much for being with us.

And if there's anything here that has really landed with you and you just want to share your thoughts,

Then please,

You know,

Write to me and I will always share messages.

If you have a message for Susan,

I'll always share it directly with her.

And please do join Susan's group,

The APS,

Susan's group,

The Age of Becoming on Facebook.

It's such a wonderful community and she curates it with,

As you probably expect,

Great good humor and humanity.

And I also wish to thank Susan,

Obviously,

For being here with us.

And I'm looking forward to our next conversation already.

And thank you to Angus.

Although Angus has told me I need to stop thanking him at the end of every episode.

I'm not sure how I feel about that,

But for now,

Let's just say a really enormous thank you to Angus from Django Music.

And maybe,

Maybe I'll stop thanking you at the end of every episode,

But maybe I won't be able to stop.

I just don't know.

All right,

My darlings,

Take care and stay safe.

And I send you a hug and a wave.

Thank you.

Reviews

Strong wise women holding each other up. Thank you. More more more :)

Good to have this kind of conversations about quite a "silent" emotion. feels like a very save intervision. Brings light into the subject of shame and blaming yourself. And taking it serious, to learn from it. Also a female subject I suppose. Thanks a lot
Monique Netherlands

Thank you so much for this talk.
That was amazing, moving, real and supportive.
I found two friends there talking to me in what can feel as a really secret and lonely emotion and experience.
Bless you both🙏💕

Listening to the both of you discussing shame reminded me of some of my talks with my best friend. It was pure delight and very insightful. I retain compassion toward myself and strong sense of value. Thank you also for making a clear distinction between shame and guilt.

Truely beautiful reflective conversation, thank you, sending good wishes with gratitude