What Is A Thought? (What Is Now? Podcast)

Is thinking just as “real” as anything else? Saqib and Charles vulnerably explore this and other topics as they arise in the present. Each of these sessions begins with one minute of silence, for the hosts and the listener simply to notice the momentum of the day and return to just Now in whatever way they can. We then open up to whatever arises in the present and finish with a short guided meditation based on what arises. Thanks for joining us!

Transcript

Hello,

Welcome to another What Is Now?

Experience.

I'm Charles Freely and I'm here with my good friend Sakib Rizvi.

If we had to be categorized,

We're both investigators of consciousness with training backgrounds and professional experience in the world of psychological and spiritual healing.

Each of these sessions is an adventure of the present moment.

Sakib and I begin each session by sitting in silence for one minute and then simply see what arises now.

We have no plan,

No prepared material or concepts to cover,

But are placing our trust in the wisdom of this right now experience.

This is an expression of our shared philosophy of healing.

If we can only let go of our desire for the present moment to be a certain way other than it is,

Then we can find the unexpected answers of what is actually now.

So if you will join us,

We will begin with one minute of silence and you can use this minute in whatever way you like.

With your eyes closed,

Sitting,

Eyes open,

Standing or walking or driving in your car.

We only ask that you return to what is actually happening right now in this moment to reset the momentum of the day and open up to just this.

After this minute,

Sakib and I will explore whatever arises between us.

We identify themes of our exploration as we go and then Sakib finishes with a short guided meditation based on the themes that arise in the session.

And now let's enter one minute of silence together as we explore what is now really.

And I'll hear a bell to start and end this one minute of your day.

How was that experience?

I was full of thought for a little while.

And then I think there's something kind of nice about just noticing thought and for it to be okay.

Just like this constant stream of stuff that is happening.

And then I noticed ringing in my ears,

Which every once in a while I'll notice this like fairly intense ringing,

Which I guess is like tinnitus.

I don't know if you've heard of that condition.

I suppose I have that or it's just something that I become aware of sometimes.

But I think that's also an interesting thing to turn to with openness and acceptance because I might initially feel resistant to it.

But then if I open to it,

I'll notice there's sometimes where it kind of sounds like beautiful.

I can hear even hear it right now.

I can hear several different sort of tones that are happening all together and it's almost a musical versus something that I could immediately identify as harsh or that I want to get rid of.

Kind of noticing that and then noticing my thoughts about that.

Like who I might want to share about this with Saket when he asked me what my experience was like.

So that's another thought to notice and then come back.

So you have this automatic in-bait music system within you.

Yeah,

Yeah,

I can just tune in.

That's wonderful.

And it's funny because I was thinking about the same thing.

Exactly.

Not not the ringing but I was thinking about this sound that I was getting in the silence.

So when we tune into silence right now where I'm living,

It's not totally silent.

I could hear some noises in the background.

However,

There's this silence and I can hear some sound in the silence.

It's like this constant that's going.

I don't know if even I have to read it or not.

But this sound which is always there in silence.

And I don't know what do I call it?

Sounds of silence maybe.

And even like this is constant.

So even if I go into nature and some place which is like totally silent where there is that's you know what we call it a pin drop silence.

There also but there is some sound which is there in the background.

You know nobody speaking at that time,

Nobody is talking,

There is no sound from the external world as such.

However,

There is still a sound going on in the background.

Just wondering that what that sound is,

Is it like something internal?

Is it like part of the external world,

Part of nature?

I don't know what is that?

Is that energy?

Yeah,

Like now I have headphones in my ears so I can hear somehow the like almost like the pressure of my headphones in my ears.

And yeah,

I've had that experience too where sometimes the ringing isn't there.

And there is just more and more subtle layers of sound that's always there.

There's something that I've described for myself at least as I've called it cosmic ringing is what it feels like.

And it's sort of,

I don't even know if it is a sound per se,

But it's the sort of like thing that I can tap into and I've tried to experiment.

Is that my heartbeat?

It's not my heartbeat.

But it's something that's always sort of pulsing.

Yeah,

Something is always there.

What do you make of it?

This actually reminds me of like,

I was reading a book by Robert Lanza,

It's called Biosynchrism.

And in this book,

He was talking about this,

You know,

Idea of a tree falling in the forest or you know,

A tree falling in a mountain area,

Something like that.

And he said that the question is that when the tree falls,

You know,

Is there a sound that is actually generated?

Like,

Is there a sound?

Let's say there is no being there,

No animal,

No human being there to listen to that sound.

And if the tree falls,

So is the sound actually generated?

Is the sound there?

Or is it because we,

You know,

We have some internal system due to which we are able to listen to that sound.

So like,

Eventually,

He goes on to describe that,

How when the tree falls,

That causes a disturbance in the air,

You know,

There is this energy vibration that happens.

There is no sound existing in the external world as such,

It's only when you know,

It makes the disturbance hits our eardrum.

That is when our eardrum rings and that is when the sound is generated within us.

So there is no sound out there,

But it is like all internal.

It requires a receiving system.

Yes,

It requires like kind of this device,

Which can,

You know,

Keep into that frequency and listen to it kind of a radio.

Yeah,

Yeah.

It makes me think of the connectivity of everything.

You know,

Like,

I think you're familiar with this world of quantum physics,

And the notion of taking everything down to its most basic elements.

And then maybe from that point,

It just depends on what the receiving system is to turn something into something that appears separate.

But it doesn't exist if not for something receiving those basic elements.

Like here,

We're talking about a wavelength and it's existing as a wave length,

But then it has to run into something that is a receiving system for that,

That then turns it into these impulses and becomes quote unquote sound.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Exactly.

I think what you're talking about here,

I think it's the Copenhagen interpretation,

Which,

Which it is like they came up with this study,

Which they were saying that for anything to exist,

Like,

There has to be a consciousness that is experiencing that.

So there is no consciousness,

Then there is no experience and even the thing doesn't exist.

So you know,

They showed it with experiments that how an electron would exist only when there is a consciousness,

Whereas when there is an observer observing the electron,

But if there is no observer,

Then the electron would not exist.

So is that something similar you're talking about?

It feels that way.

What this is a question clearly with no answer,

But what do you think?

So that's such an interesting word,

Consciousness.

And even I saw on my website,

I have,

I'm an explorer of consciousness,

And I think I'd maybe describe this both that way on this podcast bio.

And what does that word mean to you?

What,

What is that notion?

Because it's sort of to me,

It's this like catch all kind of thing,

Which is why I like it.

It doesn't narrow me.

But I wonder what,

You know,

What is your reaction or thought about that word?

My,

Like my understanding as like,

I don't know if it has evolved or has gone down.

But initially,

I used to think that consciousness might be something which is just,

You know,

A week and able to experience things.

So you know,

We we are able to experience or we are,

We are we have a consciousness,

We are sent in,

If animals can experience or they are sensing,

They have a consciousness.

But like,

I have been studying about this and a lot of spiritual traditions talk about everything being consciousness,

You know,

This idea that a particular thing is conscious and a particular thing is not conscious,

Or this idea that consciousness exists in some areas and some and does not exist in other areas.

And so they say that it's a ploid idea,

Because every because if,

If there is existence,

Then it is a part of consciousness.

So it's like kind of that the observer is not separate from something that is being observed.

So if we can observe this existence,

So it means everything in existence is conscious,

Because it is being experienced.

Even so they would say that even a rock,

You know,

It is conscious,

Which we believe,

Like,

In the mainstream world that,

Okay,

A rock is not sentient,

It doesn't have consciousness.

But it has,

You know,

In that sense,

If we,

If we go with this idea of everything being conscious,

Then even a rock has consciousness,

Anything and what I came to,

Like,

I was contemplating on that.

And then I thought that,

Okay,

Maybe everything is this vibrating energy,

It's just a field of energy,

You know,

Ether or whatever we call it,

It's just a field of energy and like this world which we experience is a manifestation of that.

It's just like a certain frequency on which,

You know,

There is a particular frequency.

So there is this entire field of energy,

It has various frequencies.

And if we are experiencing this reality,

It's just that we are tuned into a particular frequency.

So the way,

You know,

Like a TV receiver would receive all channels,

You know,

All frequencies,

But what we see on the TV is just like one particular frequency that we are looking at.

So the notion there sort of being to go back to the,

Does a tree make a sound in the woods idea and there potentially being something that is at the foundation of everything and then it's only turned into seemingly separate stuff via like a receiving mechanism that turns it into it,

The idea potentially being that that basic stuff,

Quote unquote,

Is consciousness.

And then it just depends on the receptivity of the mechanism of experiencing consciousness,

Of how much of consciousness one could experience.

Like maybe,

So I might have access to like basic cable where someone else might have access to all of the channels that are in existence.

I'm thinking of,

You know,

Going back to spirituality,

The notion of attuning yourself or like,

Or the idea of yoga,

Like at least my understanding,

Sort of yoking yourself to the universal or to quote unquote God,

Which would also be consciousness that you're then taking what was a very limited signal and then shifting it into something where it's like,

Oh wow,

I experienced all of this conscious stuff.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Exactly.

And it brings me to,

You know,

Again,

This concept of experiencing multiple lives,

Multiple dimensions in spirituality,

Considering that,

You know,

As you said that somebody having access to all these channels rather than just a single channel.

So if we,

I'm just contemplating here that if we are in that God state,

If we are in that state which,

You know,

Has access to everything,

Omniscient,

Omnipotent,

Omnipresent,

Then we from that state we come to into a particular channel.

So first we have all the channels access,

But you know,

Let's say I'm experiencing this life of Satya Brizvi,

Then I'm tuned into one particular channel,

But now I have the option to,

You know,

Tune into another channel and have another life or,

You know,

Experience another thing,

Another dimension.

Yeah,

This is,

I'm imagining,

So I just had this,

This visual of there being somebody,

And it's similar to,

We've probably talked about this idea of,

Of noticing the movie screen of life and feeling yourself as someone in the audience.

But here maybe noticing the TV screen,

And there's the channel of Satya Brizvi,

And then feeling yourself as the watcher of the channel.

And then maybe through feeling yourself as the watcher of the channel,

You might have the option of switching channels,

Or at least noticing that you are watching a particular channel amongst many other possibilities.

I wonder if you and I,

So I could notice that I'm watching the Charles Freelee channel,

And is that watcher the same for both of us?

I'm wondering if that is a sort of pure experience of consciousness.

Yeah,

Yeah,

No,

That's interesting because,

You know,

It's difficult to think about that because,

Like,

If I say that,

Okay,

I am the single being who is,

Who has access to both these channels,

Which is,

You know,

The channel of Charles and the channel of Satya.

Now I'm saying that I'm watching as this being which is God,

I'm watching these two channels simultaneously right now.

So as a human from a human mind that is difficult to perceive because we cannot watch two channels at the same time,

You know,

We watch one channel or we watch another channel.

What if this being is so,

You know,

If this being is a multitasker,

It can actually watch the two channels at the same time.

So maybe this being is also experiencing your life and my life at the same time.

Then we also have this concept of time,

You know,

And like in spiritual traditions,

They say that time is just an illusion,

Time is just a concept.

Even not only in spiritual traditions,

You know,

Even Albert Einstein said that time is relative,

It's just an illusion.

So this concept of time that I am experiencing this life right now in this moment and then after that,

You know,

So now you can notice the sense of time that we have here.

After this,

I will have another lifetime.

Now my question is what if in this very moment right now I am experiencing this life and I'm also experiencing another life,

You know,

Which for me is another lifetime or another universe.

What do you think about that?

That it's ultimately,

So let me see if I'm hearing you correctly.

If there is a notion of another lifetime,

That the experience of that really is ultimately happening at the same time as your experience of right now.

Yeah,

But because we have this as human beings,

We have this concept of future past present.

So we think that okay,

In spiritual traditions,

When they were the belief of,

You know,

Of multiple lives in life after death and you know,

Taking rebirth and reincarnation.

So we have this concept that okay,

I will first die,

Then I will,

You know,

Be reborn as someone else after this.

So because of this concept of time,

So my like,

I'm just wondering here,

Like,

What if I'm experiencing that lifetime right now,

It's still that this concept of time is,

You know,

For me,

Just like human beings.

It's also participating in this experience.

Another life.

Yeah,

I'm just sitting with that.

There's a saying that I like,

Which I don't know if this is something that I've thought of,

Or if I heard somewhere,

But I like this saying in my mind of then was now and then will be now.

It really cannot be anything other than that now,

But it's maybe so hard for us to conceive of something that is outside of the framework of linear time.

But there's,

It seems to me,

Just from an experiential,

Experimental observer basis that it's impossible to have an experience that is not now.

So then you've probably seen that that image on the internet of the clock that's,

That's ticking and each hour marker is now.

Have you seen that one?

Yeah,

I think it's a nice representation of that.

It's now watches,

You know,

In which you have a watch.

So I think there's a company.

So you just put on a watch on your hand and it doesn't have time,

Like it's written now.

So it brings you to the present moment.

That's a great reminder.

I have a tattoo on my wrist.

That's something similar.

And I think it,

You know,

It's conceptual to a certain degree,

But over time,

It's really lost any sort of meaning.

Like if someone asks me what it is,

I could give a description,

But that's a really degraded form of what it actually is,

Which is just this kind of reminder of like,

Oh yeah,

This is all happening right now.

All of it,

Like my entire life is happening in this moment,

Which is,

It can be a sort of overwhelming notion to really feel and experience that it's,

And it's maybe it sounds so obvious too,

Because I try to get that point across when I say it.

To me,

It's like so kind of jarring that all,

Like everything and all of even history is happening right now in this moment.

Like it's so immense.

And you know,

That makes me also question the idea of moments.

You know,

We believe that this is one particular moment and then that is another moment,

Then that is another moment.

We are kind of dividing with our human mind these moments.

What if everything is just a single moment?

You know,

What if we,

Because of this division,

Because of this idea that,

Okay,

That was a different moment.

This is a different moment.

From due to this,

We come up with this idea of past,

Present,

Future.

What if everything was just one moment?

There is no division.

Like the quote unquote present moment is turning it into something maybe that it isn't or to even call it the present is to take something that is living and turn it into a noun.

Yeah,

Yeah.

It also has a like kind of a notion attached to it in which when you listen to this word present,

Then you start thinking,

Oh,

Okay,

Now I don't have to think about the past.

Now I don't have to think about the future.

I have to like bring my awareness attention here in this moment.

Then again,

That is also,

You know,

A notion that we have that might not be the exact experience of the present.

Something that I've really,

A concept that I like,

I guess it's not a concept,

But it's a way of describing this that I've come across a few times is that even if we have thoughts about the future or thoughts about the past,

There's still very much so present experiences.

Me envisioning myself later on today playing with my dog or having dinner is still very much so a present experience that I can only have now.

And me remembering a meeting that I had earlier,

Or even maybe if they're critical thoughts,

Like wishing I did something differently,

Even those are still very much so present moment experiences.

The thoughts are totally brand new.

And the way I'm seeing it in my mind is brand new.

And all of the things that are happening together at once are all still brand new.

So there's,

It's interesting to maybe think of there's,

You cannot escape the present moment at all in anything that you do.

Like you are completely present at all times.

You might think that you're not,

But it's an impossibility to not be fully 100% present in reality,

Maybe.

Yeah,

That's a very interesting idea,

Actually.

And I'm just trying to wrap my head around how can that be?

I think the only difference why people call this particular physical reality as the present moment is that it is more tangible.

So our thoughts when we are thinking,

We,

I think what we,

We are not having the tangible experience in which we are touching things,

We are playing things or doing things.

It's more in our heads like a dream.

The present is more tangible.

So I'm just wondering that why do we call?

So I think then the present moment is more about tangibility rather than the time.

If you are experiencing something really tangible,

Then you say that,

Oh,

I'm present,

But that is more tangible,

Then we don't call it the present moment.

That's an interesting idea.

Yeah,

It is really interesting.

Like I can look at my hand and so that can be like,

This feels really super present because I can see it and it's in front of me and I can experience it.

But if I'm becoming aware of a thought,

Like what in the world even is a thought it is so intangible.

Like,

Is it word based?

Is it image based?

Is it all these things happening at the same time?

And this is me asking right now in this moment,

And I thought about it before,

But never quite in this way,

I guess how bizarre the experience of thought is like,

What,

What is this stuff?

Is it something?

It is tangible.

It is you can make it so tangible,

Like for someone whose imagination is very strong,

You know,

They can go into that imagination and they can start experiencing those things.

I don't know.

Maybe,

You know,

You might be knowing it better because you come from that field,

Someone let's say who has schizophrenia.

I think the experience for them is more real and it's very real,

Like our ordinary experiences.

So,

Even our thoughts,

We can choose the level of tangibility and you know,

How much we can experience that.

So what if for someone,

It is the true reality,

You know,

The thoughts,

The thoughts that they are having,

Maybe they can fully experience it.

They can have that tangibility.

And I have been a daydreamer throughout my life.

So I can vouch for that because sometimes I would go into my imagination so deep that I will have such a vivid experience as if it was reality,

As if it was happening.

Yeah,

It's a totally interesting thought.

So,

You know,

If that is my experience,

If I'm having that tangible experience in my thoughts,

Then do I also start calling that as the reality or the present moment?

What is thought like for you right now?

It might be interesting for the person that is potentially listening here too,

To experiment with like,

What is it actually like?

Is it like it exists in front of you in some way?

Is it existing in some part of you?

How do you experience it?

It's a very interesting question.

So very interesting thing to experience.

And like just now I was thinking about the previous moment when my partner just passed by and she was waving at me.

I think she wanted to say something but I was focused here on this podcast.

And I was again repeating that experience in my mind right now.

And it was as if she was there,

You know,

It was as if she was there.

But it's just that that experience is no more external to me.

You know,

So for example,

Right now you are external to me,

Right now this table is external to me,

You know,

This room is external to me.

But when I was thinking about my partner just passing by,

I don't know if this comes from a conditioning and we were talking about this in the previous sessions that I was more experiencing it in my head.

I was feeling okay,

This is this picture that is going on in my head right now.

Yeah,

It's interesting actually.

And again,

If I start believing it as a real experience,

You know,

Let's say I again see that vision in my mind of my partner passing by.

And if I start believing that it is real,

Maybe my experience will become more vivid,

More tangible in that sense.

How is that for you?

It's kind of fascinating too,

Because by you sharing about that,

Then your partner also becomes part of my experience.

And of course,

I have my own imagination of what that scene looks like.

But very quickly,

There's a whole image and experience of that passing in front of me.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Yeah.

How is that experience for you?

Like the thought?

How do you experience it?

And like right now,

How did you experience it when you asked that question?

I see a window in front of me and a person passing by with a sort of smirk and wave as they go by.

But the substance of that,

It's so I can't put it into words.

It flashes and it happens all at once.

That's something I think about in terms of communication too,

Where so before I responded to you here,

I had all of this,

Whatever it is that I'm attempting to share with you right now happened at once.

This is the way I think of it anyways.

It all happened at once in an instantaneous millisecond flash.

And now I'm attempting to take that and turn it into symbolic words to try to send it back to you as accurately as I can.

But it's all it all happened in one moment.

And then I'm sort of imagining for you,

It has already happened for you now.

And then you will like attempt to bounce it back and forth.

But there's something there that is so intangible and maybe even beyond thought.

Because to me,

At least it all happens at once and is constantly happening.

I have this inexpressible meaning inside of me that this whole time it's resonating back and forth with you in this automatic way.

And then I'm attempting to maybe that's like,

You could see it as consciousness.

And then I have some sort of receptor or tuning in thing that can receive part of it and try to turn it into something and share it back to you in the form of wavelengths that are my words.

Yeah.

Yeah,

That's pretty interesting,

Actually.

And this also makes me think of,

You know,

How dreams become so real in experience that we,

Okay,

We are saying that this thought is not real.

But when we are in a dream,

Things seem so tangible in a dream.

You know,

You can touch things that like you do here,

You can have that,

You can even experience physical damage to your body and experience that physical hurt.

So like,

My question is,

What if this that we are experiencing right now,

Maybe this is also some sort of a dream.

Maybe some like a higher level of dream that we are experiencing right now,

Because what we are doing is just by considering the tangibility of these all these objects,

You know,

Because I'm able to touch my table,

It's hard,

I'm able to touch the surface,

I'm able to touch the wall.

Now due to this tangibility,

I am saying that this is the reality.

But like,

If someone has a lucid dream,

Then that is reality for them.

So what is it,

You know,

Actually reality?

Is it based on tangibility?

Like,

This is the question that arises.

Because sort of brings me back to the one of the themes and the title of the last one,

Which came up with fear of enlightenment,

And that maybe an ego self that that is the channel of Sakabrisvi is,

Is pretty attached to the world being something that has tangible things and that you can touch.

Yeah,

That that's really kind of essential for their existence,

If they are to be the one channel.

But if if they were to open up to this other world,

Could be,

Maybe it's inherently sort of this really scary,

And even terrifying thing for,

For Sakabrisvi,

That is the only channel,

But if,

If,

If they switch into this other paradigm,

Where they're just one of an infinite number of channels,

Then there's no problem.

And it's maybe it's maybe also really relieving and freeing for the channel of Sakabrisvi,

Because there's no longer all this pressure to be a certain way or to do things a certain way,

Because they're just one part of this whole thing.

Yeah,

Experience like this limited life and,

You know,

Have all those responsibilities and all those things.

Yeah,

It's it's it's an interesting notion.

Yeah,

Totally.

I'm wondering how that experience will be.

Yeah.

Experiences.

What's,

What's this exploration been like for you?

This one's felt a little different for me from other ones.

It's felt more,

I don't know what the word is,

But kind of nebulous,

More,

Less centered,

More kind of the word I have is like in space,

In a way,

Sort of like,

I don't know if it's felt that way for you.

Yes,

Absolutely.

And I think this was very wonderful,

Because till now,

I have been reading these concepts,

You know,

People talking about like this world just being a dream,

Paramahansa Yogananda talking about how this is just kind of a virtual reality and a dream and,

But till now,

I did not have the experience to discuss it with someone and experience it at the same time.

But this is a what such a wonderful thing that has come up today is the question that what is actually really,

You know,

Even the thoughts because yet till now,

I was thinking about dreams,

You know,

That this world might be a dream and dreams might have also have a reality and vice versa and all those things.

But the question of thoughts and that was a very interesting perspective that you contemplate that you introduced today,

Like this idea of thoughts that even the thoughts can be reality,

You know,

It depends upon what we are calling reality,

The parameter on which we are defining reality,

Then we talk about this tangibility.

So maybe for someone who is,

And see,

It resonates with me because I have experienced thoughts which are as real as this,

You know,

Physical reality that we talk about.

So it makes me question because if why don't I call that a reality then?

So very interesting thing that has come up today.

It is really interesting.

It is such a fun and valuable thing for me at least to have you to explore with this stuff because there is no rules of it.

There is no,

There is nothing that we are supposed to be talking about and it is okay to explore a question of like,

Of who am I or is a thought a real thing or all of these things that really maybe have no clear answers.

And to be in interpersonal situation in which you know that,

At least I hope you are aware and I don't feel this from you at all,

That neither of us are trying to exert an opinion or have some preconceived notion of what the answers are,

But we are really interpersonally exploring what these things are for us in the moment.

That to me,

Maybe that is like an answer in and of itself to these questions,

Just to be able to explore together is kind of a really relieving thing in my mind because to explore it on your own can be scary and isolating and maybe you think you are the only person wondering these things so maybe I shouldn't think about it too much because then I blow up my whole sense of reality,

But to have someone else to do it with makes it all okay because it is like maybe no one knows what they are talking about and maybe no one knows what reality is,

But it's really fun I think to have another being to explore it with.

Yeah,

No,

This is absolutely very valuable to me as well because till now I have been,

You know,

So I would explore these thoughts in my own way,

In my own time in solitude and like I have been called a daydreamer since my childhood and then you know it's so sometimes because you are thinking about certain things,

But when you cannot communicate those things because the other person is on a totally different level of frequency,

They are different interests in life.

So when you talk about these things like this is just gibberish to them,

You know,

This is the thing that makes sense,

But having someone who understands and who is vibrating at a similar frequency and you know it's such a beautiful experience and then it is a power of,

You know,

For me,

I exploring myself,

I might not come up with so many things,

But when we are exploring it together,

Then it's like,

You know,

It's a cumulative effect.

It's an exponential rise in the exploration.

Totally.

Yeah,

You have this whole universe and I can just put a seed of a thought without even knowing what it means,

But I just have something that has occurred for me so I can put it into the space between us and then you'll take it in some way that I totally wasn't anticipating.

But I trust that just by throwing something out there,

Something else will arise and I talked about this before,

But I think that takes a certain amount of trust and vulnerability for both of us to be open to that.

And I wonder,

I sort of have a hypothesis that maybe we're all daydreamers.

We all have these thoughts because it's at the core of our basic existence that's at the fundamental part of who we are,

But maybe we haven't had enough experiences where it's okay to just openly explore these things with other people.

And it could maybe reveal someone's insecurity because they haven't explored it or haven't had a chance to explore it and what can I contribute to this?

My hope I guess would be for us to be,

I mean,

It's more than enough just as it is with you and me,

But to potentially influence that in one other person that might be listening to this and then they might be open to someone in their life and they can have that kind of conversation to come up with their own answers in only the way that they could.

And then I just think that's a kind of beautiful,

Hopeful idea that I have about this process.

Yeah.

And I think that someone,

That listener might,

You know,

Having their own thoughts and would want to share,

You know,

We are not able to have them here,

You know,

In our conversation physically in that sense,

But somewhere they are involved in this conversation.

They are having their own thoughts about what we are talking about,

What is their experience of now.

And it's beautiful,

You know,

This format of experiencing what is now,

Because so many new things come up.

If we are just discussing our old ideas,

Then it's just the old ideas,

You know,

There is nothing new coming up,

But if we just allow ourselves to be here in the moment and just be open,

Then it's like new things are born and there are so many new things.

And ironically,

I was listening to a video today of Jiddu Krishnamurti and he was talking about this notion of I don't know,

Saying I don't know,

You know,

So someone asks a question and you know,

Usually a guru who is answering the question,

They were instantly say that,

Okay,

This is the answer,

You know,

This is what I know.

Now what they are doing is they are just repeating the old memories they have,

You know,

They are just repeating that old knowledge that is there.

They are repeating the same things.

Maybe they are even quoting someone else,

Using someone else's ideas or just keep saying the same things again and again.

But he said that a true guru is someone who says I don't know,

You know,

Because when you say I don't know,

Then just notice what happens,

You know,

What is your experience when you say I don't know.

So if you experience,

Then this experience of I don't know,

Kind of brings you in the very present moment here.

Then you are giving up all your ideas,

You're giving up all your notions,

Preconceived notions,

You are giving up your thoughts and you're giving up that knowledge that you hold onto and you are coming to this very present moment.

Okay,

I don't know.

So now I have the opportunity to know,

You know,

Now I have the opportunity to know something new today rather than repeating something old.

Yeah,

There was a line that I read this morning and I took a note of it.

It just reminded me of,

Let me see if I can find it.

It's from Epictetus.

If you've heard of him from the realm of Stoicism,

It said,

It is impossible for a person to begin to learn what they think they already know.

Which is very much so the same thing.

You're guaranteeing that you're not going to receive this present.

I'm not going to call it a moment,

But the present.

If you already have some idea about what it is,

Or if you have some idea about what it is you're looking for,

Then you're excluding so much of what it can be.

You're excluding so many of the channels by already having some notion of these are the channels I'm kind of interested in.

So a guru there potentially being the one that says,

Well,

I don't know,

Let's see.

And having like the confidence of opening up to that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And usually we have so much judgment around people who say,

I don't know.

Right.

You're supposed to know.

Yeah.

You're supposed to know you are the expert.

And then there is this awkwardness when someone says,

I don't know.

And yeah,

But I think this is beautiful to not know.

Yeah.

Well,

What do you think of maybe using that as a shift into some sort of practice in,

In that realm?

Yeah,

Sure.

Let's do that.

Okay.

Let's do that.

I think what we can explore today is also the idea of our thoughts that we can check that how can we experience our thoughts fully?

You know,

How can we if we can check today that can we bring that reality to our thoughts?

So we were discussing about this idea that thoughts are not real.

You know,

We have this notion.

But let's see in today's meditation,

If we can make those thoughts as real as they can be,

If we can have that tangible experience of thoughts as real.

How does that sound to you?

Sounds awesome.

Great.

So,

So let's do it.

So now we will end this session with a short meditation and I will be guiding you through this meditation so you can gradually get into your comfortable posture and close your eyes.

And bring your awareness to your body.

Relax your body.

Relax your head,

Your neck,

Your shoulders,

Your arms and hands.

Your chest,

Your abdomen.

Relax your back,

Your pelvis.

Your thighs,

Your knees.

Relax your calves and your feet.

Then gently you can bring your awareness to your breath.

To the inflow and the outflow of the breath.

You can let your awareness be at your nostrils if you want.

Bring the air passing through your nostrils.

Release the archived breathing to youriology centers.

Your favorite place.

Maybe it can be a holiday destination.

Something other than where you are physically right now.

Maybe it is a mountain.

Maybe it is a beach.

Maybe it is a temple or a church.

Whatever that is.

And just in your mind's eye visualize yourself in that place.

See what you are doing.

Look at your surroundings.

See what you are wearing.

Look in all directions.

See if there is someone with you.

Notice each and every detail of this place.

Of this situation.

Notice all the colors.

Now imagine that you have a knob near your hand.

And you can rotate this knob.

And you can increase the brightness and color of this situation that you are visualizing.

So go ahead and rotate this knob.

And make this situation more vivid.

More realistic.

As if you are there experiencing that right now.

And then notice the sounds in this situation.

What are the sounds that you can listen to?

Maybe it is the sound of the wind,

Of the water,

Of the ocean.

Maybe sound of someone talking.

Birds chirping.

Just listen to those sounds.

And then feel the sense of touch that is there in this situation.

You can maybe feel your feet on the ground.

Maybe you can feel the wind on your skin.

Maybe you can feel the touch of water,

Of sand.

Feel that sense of touch in your body right now.

And with that you can gradually come back to your body in this present moment,

To this room,

To your surroundings where you are sitting right now.

And you can wiggle your toes,

Move your fingers.

And gradually in your own time,

You can open your eyes and come out of the meditation.

It's interesting,

I was coming out of that experience.

I definitely felt as if I was in some place that's different than now.

How was that?

Like if I asked you to give a scale from one to ten,

What was the tangibility of your experience in this thought?

It shifted.

The one way that it felt very tangible was on the physical level.

And there was,

Whenever I get into a certain state,

Like a meditative state,

There's often an experience of my hands,

Which can tend to be really interesting in different ways.

Sometimes it's as if they no longer exist.

Sometimes it's as if there's just so much sensation.

It's almost like a pain,

But it's not.

It's just kind of cool.

But then in that one,

I was noticing,

It felt almost like someone was holding my hand.

My hands were together like this in my lap,

But there was some sense of being in that space and being facilitated by you in this sort of particular location.

It was like someone was with me and my hand was being held by something that felt other from me.

Interesting.

Yeah,

So I think we can,

I think we have that potential to make our thoughts as real as this experience of life that we call real.

Thanks for,

Thanks for doing that.

I always appreciate your ability to just shift into something and in the moment guide through something like that.

It was wonderful having this session with you today.

And I really enjoyed it.

There are so many things to contemplate on.

You know,

I will do that with you in our future sessions and also with myself.

No,

Because yeah,

It has given me proof of thought.

Me too.

Sounds good.

I look forward to being with you next time.

Thank you for joining us in the What Is Now?

Experience.

We hope that you liked the episode.

If there were any insights or ideas arising for you as you were listening to our conversation,

Then you can share those ideas through your comments.

We would love to know.

Stay tuned for the next episode.

Namaste.

Reviews

Great to be present at this conversation.

Thank you for taking me outside the realms of my bog standard ways of thinking, feeling and touching my experiences of myself and what surrounds me.

I smiled the whole way through and resonated with every possibility you were able in the moment to explore. My own imaginations filled in the rest. How might you invite other people sounds (voices, impressions) into your space. Would be interesting to hear how that would play out✨💫🥰