Self-Talk For Psychological Well-Being

Do you talk to yourself? Chances are, the answer is yes. In today's episode, guest Marc Cordon shares the story of how he discovered the transformational power of intentional self-talk. He shares his journey to joy and what inspired him to become an expert on positive psychology.

We speak seriously about depression - what Marc has gone through and how it has shaped his life, his work, and what he teaches. He shares tips and advice for how to talk to yourself, so that you can live happier.

Transcript

If we're talking to ourselves with love and support and nurturing,

Then it's a nurturing universe.

It's one that's got your back.

Welcome to Within Us.

My name is Azrielle Jankovic and I'm your host.

If you're looking to bring more calm,

More wisdom,

Inspiration and overall well-being into your life,

This is your show.

I'm an educator and a coach and every week on the show I bring on experts and I ask them questions in order to make their wisdom and their teachings practical and actionable for our lives.

Today is Wednesday,

February 5th,

2020 and I'll be interviewing Marc Cordon,

Positive psychology coach,

All about self-talk and the ways that we can speak to ourselves to make the most of this self-talk and this constant experience that we're having.

Before I get into the interview,

I want to give you a quick welcome to the show and a recap of what's been going on.

I can't believe that today is Wednesday already and a whole week has gone by since the episode with Kaylee Zaytuny aired.

She has such an incredible story and I've gotten such wonderful feedback from our listeners and I think that the messages that I'm hearing are messages of hope and hope in the face of difficulty in life.

Oftentimes we're presented with difficult situations and it may look like there's no solution or no way out but Kaylee's story,

Getting diagnosed with multiple sclerosis from such a young age and then getting to the place where she is now is just incredible and it's inspirational and if you didn't have a chance to catch that episode,

I highly recommend doing so now.

It'll definitely give you a dose of hope and she's just a joy,

A real joy and a pleasure to listen to.

And you know what she and my guest today have in common is this understanding that we are living in complex machines.

We are living in these bodies and our bodies need care and that care comes in the form of physical care as well as emotional care.

The other day Kaylee posted something on social media that said the most important relationship that you'll have with anyone is the relationship that you have with your body and I'm paraphrasing but I feel like the brilliance of this is learning to differentiate between the different aspects of ourselves and giving the body what it needs so that it doesn't fight back.

So we all know what it is to overdo it in our lives and come down with a cold or the flu like I did last week because clearly I was taking too much on and it's so normal to do it.

We all want to push our limits and we all want to accomplish and achieve and at the same time we're living inside of this complex organism that needs our care and our attention.

So I think that's an incredible message that Kaylee brings and you're going to hear something similar from our guest today with a slightly different bend.

I'll tell you a little bit about our guest.

I initially came upon Mark and his hilarious live talk show that he does on Facebook in a coaching group.

So I'm a part of several groups of coaches,

Networks of thousands of coaches on Facebook and I was initially drawn to Mark because he really has this vibrancy about him.

You're going to hear it right away when you meet him.

He has a bubbly personality and he's funny and he's witty and he's so personable and he's also so sweet.

And recently I watched his TEDx talk that he gave on the topic of self-talk and what I found to be fascinating about it,

Other than the fact that it's completely hilarious and he goes into his life as a roller derby maniac.

And he ties it all together with this theme of self-talk and these points that are actually really serious and really useful in that he's gone through some hard times.

And he didn't just become a positive psychology coach because he grew up joyful and happy and he's always been so positive.

No.

He came into this because he needed more positivity and he needed to understand psychology because he was going through some really dark times himself.

So this is the first time in this episode I've ever heard Mark so candid and so open and quite frankly so serious.

But we're talking about some serious topics and I'm going to give you a little spoiler alert that there is a lot of hope in this episode and there is a lot of useful information in terms of what you can do or what you can share with someone who may be going through a depression or a dark time.

Obviously this episode is not intended to treat any acute medical issues or medical issues in general,

Not intended to diagnose.

You know that.

But I'm just going to say that this is very helpful information and at the same time you're going to hear that Mark went on a journey and he really sought out different types of help.

And no,

He didn't go to just one therapist.

He went to several because he needed to find what was going to work for him.

And you'll hear me say this today and I'll continue saying this,

That each one of us,

We are so unique and what we need in order to grow,

In order to heal,

Can also be highly individualized.

So just because we see a friend of ours or a family member or a neighbor who went through depression and had some specific prescription for medication or some regimen that they did with exercise or nutrition,

You know we can try all of those things.

But I think it's important to stay hopeful and to stay vigilant and keep looking for what's going to work for us.

And keep tweaking that,

Right?

This is a lifelong journey and a lifelong venture.

People ask me all the time,

Like what do I do if something works one day and it doesn't work the next day?

For example,

I gave a mindfulness meditation seminar on Tuesday and I had one of the participants in the group that just said,

You know,

I try so many different things for relaxation and for sleep and I just continue to have insomnia and sometimes one of my remedies will work and then it will stop working.

And I think that when we become aware and really present with what's going on with ourselves,

Not just on the obvious physical levels but on the deeper subconscious levels,

We realize that we're sensitive beings and we're taking in a lot of input at any given moment,

On any given day.

And our fears and our concerns and what excites us can vary from day to day.

And by staying aware and staying in tune with the deeper parts of ourselves,

We are able to address our needs more carefully.

And you know,

It's really,

Really normal.

We have a lot going on on our subconscious levels and that is one thing that I really love so much about mindfulness and meditation.

You know,

In meditation we do tune into the subconscious and one way that we start to be able to do that is by tuning in with the action that we take on a constant basis without our being conscious of it.

And that's breathing.

And by tuning into our breath and regulating our breath,

We are really opening up a gateway to the subconscious.

We can discover so much in doing this and simply by giving ourselves the space and the time to be quiet.

I know that when I'm done recording this episode,

I'm going to take some time this morning to walk into the forest and to sit in solitude and silence and make space for whatever is.

You know,

Sometimes we can immediately tap into this sense of connection and this clarity and we can clear our minds and we can stop thinking and we can have a transcendent experience.

In other days,

We might be swimming around in thoughts because they're that heavy and it is what it is.

And that's,

I think,

Part of the big picture.

That's part of the journey that is our life.

You're going to hear more about journeys.

You're going to hear all about Mark's journey in our episode today and what he did to help himself out of a very,

Very difficult time.

You know,

My friends,

We all go through difficult times and as I've started sharing with you in past episodes,

I've dealt myself with chronic pain in various points of my life and I've dealt with mental illness as I started to share with you.

And it can be really intense,

But we are all in this together and there is hope.

If there is one thing I could give you in this episode and any other episode,

It is hope.

There is hope for you.

I'm here for you.

You can turn to me,

Tell me what's going on with you.

I will refer you.

I will try to find you the best in therapy.

You know,

There are so many different kinds of therapies out there for these situations that can come up in our lives.

So if it is like an acute depression that you're dealing with,

I can make some referrals.

And if it's the daily doldrums of existence that can come up,

That is something that I'm more equipped to deal with.

I really help my clients get out of their own way.

And a huge piece in doing that is giving voice to the doubts that so often creep into our psyche.

Right?

We are primed for survival.

And in order to survive and in order to protect ourself,

There are a lot of fears and doubts that can come up in our mind in the form of self-doubt when we're trying to do something new or trying to do something scary.

So I believe in my clients and I really only take my clients on if I believe in them.

And I have yet not to accept a client.

Yeah,

That's true.

Because I look for the evidence and there's really no refuting evidence when it comes to believing in ourselves and believing in one another.

So with that said,

My friends,

I'm going to introduce you to Marc Cordon.

Marc Cordon is a positive psychology coach.

He's the founder of The Joy Revolution.

He has written books on positive psychology.

He has a show on Facebook every week called The Golden Mike.

And he's also launched a podcast now in the podcast space,

Which he's going to be talking about.

I just feel like you have this magical way of telling stories that inspire and they're comical and they're meaningful all at the same time.

Amazing.

Amazing.

Yeah.

Make sure that you put that in the podcast.

I'm putting it all in the podcast.

So Marc Cordon,

I want to welcome you to With an S.

It is such an honor and a pleasure to have you with me today.

Here we're going to be talking about so many inspirational things.

I just finished watching Marc's TED Talk and I've been watching Marc on his show,

The Golden Mike for over a year now.

And there are so many aspects to Marc Cordon's personality.

Marc does so many things.

He's a master coach,

Positive psychology coach and an educator and a speaker.

And he hosts his show and he's here today to speak to us about some really life altering and inspirational ideas around positive psychology and self-talk.

Marc,

Welcome to With an S.

Dr.

Ozzie,

It's great to be here.

What a nice interview.

Awesome.

Thank you.

I know you do so many things.

So perhaps we'll start out by sharing with the listeners a little bit about what it is you do and how you got inspired to do this work.

Yeah,

I think in terms of being a positive psychologist,

The biggest thing that inspired me was sort of my own sadness and depression.

And so that contrast in life offers a beautiful opportunity to wonder what the other side feels like and not to be too polarizing and say that this world is a polarized place because I don't necessarily believe in a duality to things,

But there is a nice contrast that having gone through a period of searching,

Having gone through a period of settling for things that I wanted to think about what human flourishing felt like for me.

What did it feel like to flourish as an individual belonging to a community and not having to apologize to the community?

And I think all of those questions kind of coming together is what sort of started that journey into positive psychology.

I want to take a moment to acknowledge you for sharing your truth and for sharing your story authentically because depression and anxiety and loneliness have become epidemic,

As you know,

In modern society.

And I think that it takes individuals such as yourself who have the courage to really tell the truth about what that is like,

What it's like to go through that,

And then how can we come out of it?

I mean,

Now you understand how to help others out of the ditch because you've been in it yourself.

Sure.

And maybe I'm not fully out of the ditch yet.

You know,

I don't know what my story is going to be like 10 years from now,

But I do know that there was,

You know,

In terms of growing up and having parents that came from the Philippines and made a life,

Ostensibly a successful life,

And I would say also internally a successful life as there's a lot of happiness and celebration going on in the Cordon households these days.

And I say households because we've grown,

Right?

But also at the same time,

I remember,

And not to blame them,

But I remember sort of being a black sheep growing up,

Like,

You know,

Maybe I don't want to be a doctor like they were.

Maybe I don't want to do this.

But the self-talk that I told myself was,

I'm just a kid.

What do I know?

And you know,

When I grow up,

They're going to say that they're right.

And you know,

We received those messages when we were small.

You know,

When you're older,

Son,

You'll understand why I'm saying this stuff to you.

And so here I am in like my mid-twenties,

Like going through a PhD program and saying,

I still haven't grown up yet because I still don't understand what they were trying to say to me.

And I remember it was my 30th birthday and my partner was trying to take me out.

And I said,

Look,

I have to do a required paper due tomorrow.

And I told her to go out with her friends and celebrate on my behalf.

And I remember writing a paper and it was a superfluous paper in retrospect,

But it was such a big deal to finish my finals and go into my,

You know,

From being a PhD student to being a candidate,

Right?

It was such a big deal at the time.

And I remember saying to myself,

I'm going to grow up and this will all make sense one day.

I was a devout Catholic who in my PhD program became a questioning one,

Then being a total nihilist at one point,

Because you couldn't provide me data.

I just went totally out of my heart and my gut into my head.

And I think that's when a lot of the loneliness started.

I remember saying out loud when no one was in the apartment,

I was paper strung all over the floor,

Post-it notes everywhere.

And I was like,

What the heck is this all for?

What am I doing this for?

And I remember saying like,

God,

I know you don't exist,

But I have no idea why I'm talking to you right now.

But like,

I am so lonely.

I am so sad.

And like,

Please,

If you exist,

Please,

And the hair's standing up on my arms right now.

I was like,

Show me something,

Just show me something.

And I remember in that moment of desperation,

It felt as if something in retrospect of a higher energy touched me.

I felt literally a lightning bolt go through from my legs to my head.

And I just felt like I was surrounded with love.

And they were all laughing at me being like,

You idiot,

We've been here all the whole time.

And so even though I,

You know,

As much as I love positive psychology,

I can talk about what it does.

Positive psychology in and of itself is limited.

And there's something even greater than positive psychology.

And I just wanted to preface all of this by that one moment of loneliness that really ignited a brand new path of seeing the world through newer eyes or fresh eyes or seeing the world like a kid and owning up to some of those things.

I asked for something that I didn't know was going to respond.

And I asked and they picked up the phone.

To review,

You were growing up and you were growing up in an established family that was successful and that had certain models for what being an adult looked like.

And you had your passions and your childlike idealism.

And yet that was not necessarily taken seriously by the primary adults in your life as most often times.

Or the establishments.

Or the establishments.

Yeah.

Right?

As happens so often.

And so this voice,

It never really went away.

It never really went away.

You're going through the motions.

You're living up to this ideal that was put upon you by external institutions,

If you will,

Until you had that one moment where it was your 30th birthday.

It was my 30th birthday.

Your 30th birthday and the post-its are strewn everywhere.

And your partner's out celebrating for you.

And you sat down and you just spoke to the God that you were not.

It sounds like you were sure of something,

But you had your questions and you were looking for evidence.

And in spite of all of that,

You spoke to a higher power.

I mean,

In the darkest of days.

Yeah.

I've had some dark days,

But that was psychologically.

And from a standpoint of sort of an existential crisis,

It was the worst.

You know,

To be there and being like,

I'm 30 years old and I still haven't grown up and I still haven't found a way to fit into this archetype that has been created for me.

And it wasn't my archetype.

It wasn't at all my archetype.

It was an illusion.

It was a total illusion.

And if anyone listening has ever asked,

There's got to be something more out there.

That was sort of the hopelessness times 10 that I was feeling because I did not know where to go.

I mean,

Here you were 30 years old.

You had a partner.

You were a PhD candidate.

On the outside,

It looked as though the pieces were put together and things were moving and things were happening.

But inside,

It sounds like the situation was very different.

Absolutely.

You know,

And so definitely the way that,

I mean,

I was completely beating myself up in terms of why can't I get this stuff straight.

It's really funny because I was having a conversation with someone yesterday and they had said,

You know what,

Mark?

They were a coach starting out their business and they were like,

To walk a day in your shoes a lot of people dream of.

And I said,

I received that.

Thank you.

But also you can't read my mind.

You don't know what it's like necessarily to get off this podcast and then help my dad as he's going through his dementia right now.

Or you don't know the exquisite joy I feel when I see him come to and play queso ras on the piano perfectly.

So I think one of the things is that people back then too would be like,

You're 30 years old,

You're on a path of becoming a doctor.

You're going to move up education really fast.

You're doing everything right.

And I should have taken that as a red flag when someone says you're doing everything right,

Dr.

Ozzie.

Because I'm doing things in compliance with someone else's ideal or someone else's expectation for what it is that I'm supposed to do.

And so my goodness was I in compliance,

You know.

But also at the same time,

I had really put on this big time facade of being a people pleaser and even into my positive psychology days or the golden mic days,

Hardcore people pleasing.

And still on the inside,

I was beating myself up after the golden mics and people were like,

You're such a happy person.

You have so much zest.

And I do.

And yet the self-talk can completely dominate your subconscious and conscious mind.

The negative self-talk.

Exactly.

The negative self-talk.

Oh,

Yeah.

No.

And 99% of the time,

I'm living in an unconscious world.

And the 1%,

The personas that people see of me are completely jovial.

And they're real.

Because when I'm mad,

I'm mad on the show.

Or when someone challenges me on the show,

I challenge back.

But also at the same time,

I can say I'm joyful,

I'm joyful,

I'm joyful,

I'm joyful.

But if the subconscious does not pick up on that,

It'll just think of it as a load of crap.

And so that's been a lot of the personal work that I've been doing with coaches,

Therapists,

Self-work,

Journaling,

Meditation.

You name it.

I've tried a lot of methodologies.

And to each their own,

It really is a nice little cocktail of how you want to surround yourself with what Aristotle calls your virtuous friends.

The people who will derive their greatest happiness by seeing you happy.

And so that's just what I do as a coach.

That's so beautiful.

I want to be a virtuous friend.

That is so beautiful.

You know,

I'm thinking about this now.

You have so much perspective looking back,

Realizing that you were trying to live up to this ideal that had been served to you,

Sold to you from sources outside of yourself.

And I think that many of our listeners,

I know so many people can identify with this idea of believing I'm doing everything right.

I'm working in school or I have the job and I'm working hard or I'm starting a company and I have the partner and kids or whatever someone's combination may be for what that looks like.

But why am I not happy?

Why am I still not happy with all of this?

So can we talk about that for a few minutes?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Let's go there.

You know,

I'm going to go into some of my wild thoughts that I don't necessarily share on other podcasts or even my own.

This is with an S.

So this is the place.

I believe that this planet is the place to be right now.

I don't think those things happen to me.

I think those things happened for me.

And to even preclude all of that stuff,

I kind of think that it's not kind of,

I firmly think that something greater than my meat suit,

Like a soul,

Went and chose these situations to specifically learn and also to give back.

It's like the bigger piece is that I'm playing a video game.

Like my soul is playing a video game right now.

And so that's sort of the precursor to everything.

I didn't believe that before.

I thought I was the video game.

I thought I was the movie.

And so that made me very much feeling like a victim to everything.

And I remember being younger and sort of when we go into it,

Like we flatten everything out and we go from dark to light.

I do remember the dark phases being ever since I was being younger,

Going and looking in the mirror and being like,

Why do I have to be so short?

Why does my skin have to be so damn brown?

Like no girl is ever going to love me or believe me wherever I was at.

But like I remember having that little esteem because it was like watching Sesame Street.

One of these things is not like the other.

And so you become hypersensitive or I became hypersensitive to all the things that I was not in society.

And even the fact that my parents monetarily were doing maybe a little bit above average,

I hated that.

I wished I was totally average.

And I love vanilla,

But you know,

The metaphor of vanilla is that it's average,

Right?

I wish that I was instead of 4'11",

I wish I was 5'6".

I wish that like my voice was changing at the same time as the other.

I wish that I wasn't so what I thought was socially awkward.

I wish that I could have conversations with the opposite sex with ease like it seemed like everybody else could do.

So I remember that being at the beginning of sort of,

Why am I so different?

And then I remember kind of going into this phase where that why am I so different had me feeling inferior to everything and everyone around me.

And that probably was the end of me being curious.

It was a really young age because I remember before that,

Like I grew up in Florida and I remember walking to preschool with my mom.

And I remember it was only like a block away,

But it would take an hour for us to get there because I would stop and like if there was frost on the ground,

I needed to play in the frost.

And like,

Everything was inspiring to me.

And suddenly nothing was anymore.

Suddenly I like I really wanted to be in a shell.

I didn't want people to pick on me.

I didn't want to be heard.

I didn't want to stick out.

And then even if you asked me what I was here for,

I didn't know.

And so I just followed the leaders.

I was an army ant.

I was a automaton.

I had these like great dreams when I would go into my room and it was like being like Calvin and Hobbes.

Like you know,

I'd pretend like I was the star quarterback or I'd pretend like I was scoring the winning goal in hockey.

Like a lot of people,

They're the hero of their own journey.

But once I left the room,

The self-talk really said,

You're nobody,

Dude.

The judgmental that you were feeling separate.

You were feeling different than everyone.

Completely.

Why can't I be?

Why me?

Why do I have to be different?

Why me was a big thing,

Ozzy.

And even,

You know,

Even as I made a name for myself,

Quote unquote,

In higher education and I started to find a voice and I started to do things my way,

It would,

My way meaning in a way that was in congruence with what I felt were my inner strengths.

I would start the loop over again.

So I remember going to my PhD,

Which was in education and developmental psychology.

And I remember sitting in the room and I'm like,

I'm the only one in the room who doesn't have a master's in education.

Right?

And then that kind of one of those things is not like the other popped up when I was in my PhD program.

Like I said,

In my TED talk,

A place that was meant to be hospitable turned into a hostile place for me.

Right?

I think with a lot of the research that's coming out on identity work,

The way that you look at yourself is the way that you look at the world.

So if you're looking at yourself as separate and fractured and screwed,

Then you're,

Then you look at the world in the same lens and it feels like the world is trying to screw you over.

It feels like the world is trying to separate you from it.

And so it really built to that 30th birthday.

And I'm not saying that everything was answered on that 30th birthday when I was touched by an angel,

But like it,

It was really nice that that was really a turning point.

Wow.

And so it sounds like for several years you were really consumed by these feelings of separateness and unworthiness and sadness,

Like deep,

Deep sadness.

And then suddenly and somehow,

And really,

You know,

At this pivotal moment,

There was this change,

This change that came into being.

Yeah.

And the thing is,

Is that it wasn't like I was struck by lightning and then suddenly I was glowing.

That really,

It was like I went from feeling like a victim to having enough energy to go and say,

Let me go and look for a therapist.

I was literally on a search trying to find something.

And I think it was,

I think it was joy and authenticity that I was looking for.

I just didn't know what to call it and I didn't know what to,

Where to look.

It's like that Indigo Girl song.

I went to the doctor,

I went to the mountains,

I looked to the children,

I drank from the fountains.

I love that song.

I'm going to have to put a clip in that.

I remember I was like,

I'm going to go to an Asian therapist because they'll definitely understand.

And I remember the first thing they said was,

You're really screwed up.

And I was like,

Amazing.

Then give me the damn pill.

Give me the pill.

Give me the pill to unscrew me.

Right.

Fix me,

Doctor.

Yeah,

Fix me.

And then I went to another therapist and he was sitting there and he was an Asian American and he stops and he goes,

Hold on a second,

Man.

You are a case study for what it means to be Asian American.

And I didn't know what to feel at the time.

And he was like,

He was like,

Just think of this.

You grew up in a society that told you to be a rugged individual.

And then you came from a history of collectivism and family.

Like you want to stick out like you've seen the kids on Saved by the Bell do.

You want to be this rugged individual without having to apologize to the collective.

And the second he,

It had been a couple of weeks that we had been working.

And the second he had said that sentence,

It was like,

Yes,

Yes.

I'm coming to a piece where I'm reconciling two seemingly paradoxical parts of my identity and creating a third three dimensional space for me to grow and expand and do something completely different than being Filipino or being American.

And it felt as if I was a hermit crab and like the shell gets too tight for those hermit crabs and they leave the shell and find a bigger shell.

And in between going from a smaller shell to a bigger shell,

I felt completely exposed and vulnerable.

But like,

That's what the new journey felt like.

This journey of being a little bit more exposed,

A little bit more vulnerable,

Coming out of my hermit status,

Making connections.

And what has resulted are things like the Golden Mike,

Which the show is,

There's a public good out there,

But it's me really trying to stay true to,

I can still make a connection with someone,

Even though I'm working my butt off,

To get my coaching practice off the ground,

To be a kick butt dad and also to be a kick butt son at the same time and put all of these things together in which it has no,

There is no word for my identity.

You can say that I'm part of- We're so beyond words.

So much more than what words can encapsulate.

And Ozzy,

I would say that that feeling was the feeling of pure freedom and authenticity.

It's so incredible.

I want to break this down because I think for all listeners,

They can get so much out of this moment where you're sitting with a therapist and he essentially normalized your experience and he said,

You are in this construct,

You're in the social construct and this is what it can be like.

And this is normal.

And why wouldn't you feel it this way?

And I think so often what happens to people is that it's so easy to get stuck in our own insecurities and our own fears and our own desires and just forget that of course we feel this way.

Look what we're dealing with.

Yes,

Absolutely.

When he said that,

I had an instant man crush on him.

And also I felt like for the first time someone had tapped into my mind and could read it.

And like- So beautiful.

It was so,

Yes,

It was beautiful and it was spooky and it was like I felt unleashed.

It was amazing.

It was absolutely amazing.

Would you say that that was a moment where you moved from being in your thoughts to thinking about your thoughts?

I would definitely say that that was the beginning of it.

I didn't have a meditation practice,

But really when I started moving towards meditation was when I started to feel the observer effect that I could really observe my own life and not be stuck in it and that I could observe thoughts.

It's almost like you're cloud watching.

You're just kind of watching the thoughts go by and you're not judging it or anything like that.

I love that you just said clouds.

Okay.

You're a big cloud fan,

Right?

But yeah,

And I'm not saying that it really is a practice because there's days where it just feels like I can't step out of the movie.

It feels like there's so much drama.

There's so much comedy.

There's so much stress.

You can't see beyond the cloud.

You're in the cloud.

Your vision is cloudy.

I'm part of it.

Once you can step away,

You kind of laugh.

At least I do.

I kind of laugh about it.

I'm a big fan of doing autopsies of those moments when I do get stuck in the clouds.

And I forget that those are just images on the cave.

Those are just shadows on the cave.

And there's so much more world out there than just being here in this cave,

Like Plato said.

I think that was one of the things that shored it up.

But also continually being on a journey.

I am a positive psychology coach.

I am a father.

I am a Filipino American.

I am this.

Those are all personas that I wear.

And I wear them depending on the context of things.

And so to really think about what is my persona and how can I take that mask off and what do I truly look like without any of the personas and try to observe myself there.

I know a lot of people are like,

Act like your biggest mentor is always watching you.

Well,

That's a facade.

I'm talking about who is this mark when all the personas are off?

What do I truly look like naked and bare?

And that's something that I love thinking about.

Because then when I think,

As I think about who that true person is and embrace that person and nurture that person,

Then I can show up less of a persona,

Less of a caricature,

And more of this true personality.

And that's the game.

That's the fun part to me.

That's the fun part.

Here we are.

We're like these,

We're these high souls.

You know,

We're coming into the world to work on something.

We're on a mission and we're stuck in these,

As you like to call it,

Meat suits.

And it's just so humbling to be walking around in the meat suit.

And yet we agreed to all of this.

And if there's this mission,

Not to get stuck on the physical,

Not to get stuck on the small stuff,

To stay focused.

So you're walking through your journey.

You went through some real lows.

Something happened when you were 30 and you had this moment where you decided to seek help.

And I think for anyone listening who's ever experienced difficult times or who might still be experiencing difficult times,

I think this is the turning point in the story.

When you realized that there are channels of hope available and the change is possible and you went out and that's the courageous step.

And it wasn't even like you stopped with the first one.

You kept going.

And it's not like you bought one book to work on self development.

You read,

Mark Hordone read all of them and now he wrote a book called The Joy Revolution.

So you've done so much work on personal development and you help other people with this.

And there's this story,

Like what does it look like to go through the steps?

How can someone successfully stay on the path toward this deeper rooted joy,

This authentic way of living?

Yeah.

Quieting those gremlins and those self critical voices.

What does that path look like?

Yeah.

Well,

I think if I were to,

I think that it's very highly individualized per person.

It's not as linear as we think it is,

Even though when we look back on it,

It feels very linear,

Right?

There's no like program everybody can sign up for right now and fix us all in one fella swoop.

No.

Yeah,

The Joy Revolution is the closest thing to it.

But when we look at nature itself,

Right,

There's the golden mean,

The golden ratio is present in everything.

The spiral of a seashell,

The way that chords in music are played,

They're all on these ratios that feel harmonious.

And I would say that personal growth looks more like that,

A golden ratio where you're spiraling out into the universe and the universe is spiraling into you.

That's why I say so much that like,

It makes sense that if you think about the golden,

If you think about your heart,

And the spiral coming out from your heart,

The way that you talk to yourself,

The way you think about yourself completely shapes when the spiral gets big and is beyond you.

I think there are a couple things that some amazing researchers have put out there and I completely agree with.

The first thing is that happiness is,

There's a lot of different,

We use one term for happiness or joy,

And there's a lot of different meanings that we have for it.

One of the psychological things or neurobiological things when it comes to happiness is the attainment of goals.

We use goal attainment,

We use happiness as a metric for our goal attainment.

We don't think too much about it,

But if you think about social media now,

That's goal attainment.

We put out a message and we want people to receive it,

And how do we know they're receiving it?

They hit the heart.

And what happens when they hit the heart?

For every heart,

We have a little dopamine rush.

And so the brain releases these feel-good chemicals.

But the thing is,

Is that's only one part of happiness.

That's more of a hedonic happiness.

There's another part of happiness that's much deeper inside of you and more content.

Aristotle called this eudaimonia,

Living by the good demon on your shoulder,

Kind of whispering,

Mark,

This is what it feels like to live the good life,

And going with those decisions rather than the structure or archetypes that society wants you to do.

And so when you put those two things together,

A little piece of hedonia,

A little piece of the dopamine rush every single day by being mindful,

I've got a dopamine rush right now talking to you,

Ozzy.

I totally admit that.

But I also would- That's what they say about listening,

That when we're being listened to,

It's one of the greatest pleasures in life.

Yes.

And there's nothing wrong with the human pleasurable side of things.

But there's a whole lot of things that can go wrong when you only focus on the human pleasurable side of things.

You can go into addictions,

And a lot of kinds of addictions,

Because it's all the same kind of pleasure center in the brain that's going off.

Now if you feel like you're absolutely living the good life and you're getting hedonic pleasure from the good life,

That's total flourishing.

I think that's something everyone can figure out for themselves in terms- This is so interesting,

Marc.

Is the intersection of that when hedonia and eudaimonia meet.

That's true joy and happiness to me.

So the first part of what you're talking about is this dopamine,

Like we are wired for connection.

We are wired for feedback.

We are wired for.

.

.

We respond to stimuli in our environment.

And so therefore we can remain productive as human beings in a myriad of ways.

And then you're saying there's a second piece about this.

.

.

How do you pronounce it?

Eudaimonia?

A plus.

Which is the.

.

.

Thank you.

Which is this whispering on your shoulder.

Now how would you classify or explain.

.

.

Is this some kind of inner voice or voice of truth that everyone has,

According to this idea?

You're so well-spoken.

I love it.

You make it easy for me to talk about this stuff.

As a neuroscience major,

One of the things that I found completely amazing,

And folks like Ken Wilber talk about this as well,

Is that our neurons aren't just contained in our brain.

They found our neurons to go down to our hearts and our stomachs.

So when you.

.

.

I'm getting goosebumps right now.

When you say,

I feel it in my heart,

Or when you say,

I'm getting a gut instinct,

That this is the right thing to do,

Those are still wiring.

Those are things that are firing.

And so as you start to trust your gut more and your heart more,

Those neurons grow stronger.

That's why things like meditation,

Observer effects,

Are such a big deal.

Not only are you separating yourself from the clouds,

But the neurons inside your heart and your gut and your mind are firing together and creating new connections.

So what this means is that this also is a kind of biological thing as well,

A spiritual thing.

It crosses disciplines,

But it also goes back,

If we want to look anthropologically,

To when we needed each other to survive.

You needed to have a purpose in the tribe and figure one out really quick so everyone could have a role in each other's survival.

And for some reason,

We have all forgotten that that's where we came from.

And we've become these folks that live on our islands separate from other humans.

And we create our own illusionary lives that everything is freaking perfect through mediums like social media.

And we say to the outside world,

Look at me,

I'm fine,

I'm perfect.

But just like me,

When I had my first hermit crab shell around me,

It was a defense mechanism.

Humans are outgrowing it.

And when you feel in your gut and in your heart and in your mind,

It's called holographic thinking from where I was trained,

When you feel all of those things firing,

That is eudomonia at its best.

And we're getting signals from this deep internal spiritual mind body spirit coming together to give us messages.

Now,

I think a lot of people listening who are not familiar with this idea could be wondering,

Mark,

How do I know which one's which?

Oh,

That's good.

That's a great question.

Okay.

So literally,

I would say that this is where the practice of meditation and self-awareness come into play.

Because when you're asking yourself questions,

These vital questions about what you want to do with your life,

Where you want to go,

What decision you want to make,

Feel it,

Like embody it,

Embody the answer.

And where is the answer showing up?

Oftentimes I'll ask myself three questions.

There was a point where I was out in LA and I was trying to figure out whether this was the right place for me.

I would say,

Okay,

Mind,

Thinking through with my brain,

What sense does this make to stay here?

Well,

In my mind,

It makes sense to stay here because my partner is out here.

In my mind,

It makes sense to stay out here because I'm making more money than I was in Florida.

That's all illusion still.

Push it down,

Ask yourself the same question.

In my heart space,

What do I feel?

I feel a lot of love from my partner.

In my heart,

I also miss my father and I want to spend time with my father.

So there is that dissonance again that needs reconciliation.

It's the same thing that was happening to me when I was trying to figure out,

Do I be Filipino or do I be American?

There's a reconciliation going on.

It's not easy.

It's not easy.

So here you are and you're contemplating.

I think this is why a lot of people are afraid of meditation.

I know that I felt this way and I come upon people all the time who share this with me and they say that they don't really want to be alone with their thoughts and feelings because it's a scary place to be.

To feel feelings is very scary.

So I believe that there's a lot of beauty in your message of self-talk and moving away from that judgmental,

Critical,

Harsh tone of voice that we can so often use with ourselves and moving into this space where we're leaning into our feelings,

We're opening in awareness and yet we're also offering ourselves this compassionate understanding that,

Okay,

Of course you're feeling this way and being there for ourselves as fragmented as that might sound,

There are these different parts of ourselves.

So you're in this space of asking your brain,

Asking your heart mark.

And then you ask your gut.

That's the third piece.

Okay.

You ask your gut.

Yep.

You ask your gut feeling.

It's the same thing.

Asking your gut.

And oftentimes the gut will not have a voice.

It's just a feeling.

Go back to Florida.

That's what it said.

I haven't looked back since.

And to have,

You know,

Now to go into the self-talk,

The beauty of self-talk is that someone was saying something very nice and I received the message.

It would be cool to walk in your shoes for a day.

But the thing is,

Is that no one can get into my mind except for myself.

No one can get inside of me,

Not just my mind,

But my space.

No one can read inside of me like I can.

And so the beauty of self-talk is that it combines the best of truly mind reading like that therapist did or understanding like that therapist did with a nonjudgmental or even positive way of reshaping a somewhat distorted notion of self.

We all,

According to research,

Use self-talk.

We all do it.

You don't have to necessarily be walking around the grocery store saying,

I hate my life or walking around the grocery store saying,

These eggs,

Ah.

You know?

No,

People are walking around the grocery store and it's like,

Why am I doing this again?

Exactly.

Exactly.

Right?

It's the discontent that they can so easily like seep into everyday living because it just can.

Exactly.

Exactly.

One of the first things you can do with self-talk is really just like everything else is notice.

Notice what your inner conversation looks like.

And notice sort of,

You know,

Put a tick every time you're like,

I would never say that to a person.

I'd never say that out loud.

I'd never say that to another human or animal,

You know?

So why would I say that to myself?

And see if you can start to,

When you catch yourself,

Then once you get into the catch,

You can then move towards,

I'm going to just use neutral language,

You know?

Walk me through this for a second.

Let's say that I get to the end of my day.

This is totally hypothetical,

Of course.

And I say to myself,

Ugh,

I got nothing done today.

You got nothing done and,

You know,

Look at all the time you wasted and look at all the things you wanted to get done and,

Ugh,

So unproductive.

And you know,

Why did you do this?

And you could have done that.

And you know,

The wheel starts turning.

So where do I go from there?

Yeah.

So,

Yeah,

This is,

You're like reading my mind now too.

Like I definitely will have those days where I'm like,

You did nothing today,

Man.

Like look at you,

How are you going to run your business,

Bro?

Number one is just like meditation,

Seeing it as a cloud,

Right?

Distancing yourself from it.

I remember one of the first techniques that I did was I turned it into a cartoon voice.

So like,

It wasn't such this heavy thing whenever I heard self-talk,

Like,

Because it was always negative when I first started.

So when it's like a daffy duck,

Like I was like,

And so like,

I just laugh,

You know,

And I really worked to making it neutral or somewhat positive.

So you know,

Like,

And one of the ways that I could really turn it around is Martin Seligman's exercise which is so simple of three things that you're grateful for and why.

When you start getting out of your own self and story and understand that things are happening for you,

Then all of a sudden more possibilities open up.

We're going to have to phrase this in a way that resonates with you.

So I'm just going to do this for myself in a way that resonates for me just as demonstration,

Right?

So like,

You know,

What a really crappy day,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah.

You are so lazy,

Marc,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah.

So the negative self-talk that I identify,

I'm catching is you are so lazy,

Right?

So then you can move into A,

Making it like,

You are so lazy,

Like making it like a voice.

So it just makes me laugh.

Or then you can turn it into a neutral.

You know,

I'm so glad that,

You know,

I'm so grateful that I did have the opportunity to,

You know,

Have a day where I didn't blow out today.

And rather than letting this stress me out,

I'm going to use this tomorrow to propel me forward.

And I'm going to call it a day.

And these are the three things that I'm grateful for.

Thank you for allowing me to catch myself and not allow myself to get into self-talk.

Thank you for the delicious meal that I had and all the thousands of people who made it happen.

Thank you for allowing me to get on the phone and talk to someone who really cares about me,

Maybe a little bit longer than I thought,

But it was so good to know that I'm surrounded by people.

Right?

So like,

It doesn't,

You don't have to sit down and be like,

I am one in a billion universe.

Like you know,

I am the creator,

All this stuff.

Because what happens is even those neutral things,

Those,

When you start to catch things in any place,

You are identifying the shadow parts of yourself that you have suppressed for a long period of time.

So even the golden parts,

The golden parts where you're acknowledging how freaking awesome you are,

Your ego,

When facing the shadow,

Will want to push back and crush the shadow.

So there will always be a little bit of,

Oh my gosh,

This is a little bit uncomfortable,

But to distance yourself and say,

This is not suffering.

It's just a little bit of a growing pain,

Just like the little soreness that you'll feel when you're lifting weights.

The ego wants to stay where it is.

And so any change,

Good or bad,

The ego doesn't give a crap.

The ego just wants to stay in homeostasis.

And so when you introduce something different,

Whether it's even more negative talk,

Which is easier,

But then what's harder is sort of a neutral or positive self-talk,

The ego will want to like slam it down and say,

This is dumb.

What are you doing?

You know you wasted your day and it will come at it even harder.

And so just like anything,

It's important to make it a habit and understand that it's a practice.

And one of the things,

Once you start moving out of that is being able to get rid of the negative talk towards yourself.

That doesn't mean you need to stop cursing and all that stuff,

But that's my next stage for 2020.

If I can do that,

That'd be amazing.

But like it does mean stop berating yourself,

Stop doing that.

And then the next piece is the psychological distance again.

So you can distance yourself from the negative talk and then you can distance yourself from yourself like you do like a cloud and you can talk to yourself like a virtuous friend would.

And literally there's a guy named Ethan Cross in Michigan and he's done multiple studies on the way that we can do this.

And he found that when you're using the I pronouns,

Which are very egocentric and by the way,

The ego is good for you.

I'm not about getting rid of the ego.

I am like rid of,

I do want to get rid of the inflated overprotective ego that takes it too far.

But what he said was,

What he found was that when we speak in the I,

It inflates the ego a little bit.

Now when we speak to ourselves in the third person,

There's something about the language that allows us to look at ourselves as an observer and talk to ourselves as an observer from a distance,

Which means this,

You can distance yourself from the pain or whatever movie that or whatever scene that you're in.

You can distance yourself and then because you can read your mind,

You can offer the insight,

The attention,

The love and the nurturing that a virtuous friend would.

It's awesome.

This is incredible.

It's so beautiful.

You know,

I love listening to you speak in the TED talk about this and I oftentimes in guided meditations,

I'll have my students and I do this myself as a practice,

Imagine myself in the past or in the future and speak in the you.

And I always felt like it was powerful on this really intuitive level.

But hearing you talk about it,

Hearing about this research really opened my eyes to this power of distance.

And you know what's awesome is that as humans,

We innately kind of know it and we've kind of unlearned it.

There was a study that was done and this was a big,

Big study.

It was about telling the truth.

And so they put marshmallows in front of kids.

Have you heard of this one?

Yes,

Yes,

Yes.

The marshmallow study.

Yeah,

It was the marshmallow study.

But one of the things that Ethan's team and a couple other teams found,

And it wasn't the huge premise of the study because the study was about choices and stuff.

But when they were going through the choices,

Many of the children were speaking to themselves in third person saying,

Mark,

Don't eat the marshmallow.

You know that this is not good for you or you know that you promised them you weren't going to eat the marshmallow.

Don't eat it.

And it's so funny how much self-talk shows up in studies with children saying that there's something innate about it,

Even when language is starting to be created.

There's another thing that I couple it with and this is the notion that our words create worlds.

So if we're talking to ourselves in the negative,

We create a negative world.

If we're talking to ourselves with love and support and nurturing,

Then it's a nurturing universe.

It's one that's got your back.

And it's so beautiful.

Mark Cordone.

So Mark,

Tell us,

Where can we find you?

What are you offering and how can people get in touch with you,

Work with you?

So if you go to joyrevolution.

Com,

I offer up the first class in the course,

The Joy Revolution.

And actually the class is on settling and striving and flourishing.

And so it's a more in-depth look as to how to examine those different ways of thinking about happiness.

And I'm happy for anyone to take that and use that as a tool to navigate in your own life.

If you want to reach me,

It should be pretty simple.

Mark Cordone.

Yeah,

I'd be happy to send you my book if you want.

If anyone wants the book Beyond Resilient,

It's all positive psychology and coaching.

And I'm happy to send it to you for free.

Yeah.

Wow.

Incredible.

Mark,

Thank you so much for being here.

And thank you to you,

Our listeners,

For being here.

It is really a joy to have you connecting and sharing with me all of the feedback that you're giving about this show.

And I love hearing from you.

I want to hear from you as much as possible.

And tell me what you're taking away,

What inspires you,

What questions you have,

And how we can serve you best with the show.

Who can we interview?

What do you want to learn?

What do you need?

This is for you.

This show is all about you.

It is for you.

And I know that I get so much out of interviewing my guests,

But fortunately,

In our day and age,

I get to share these interviews.

And I love doing it.

So do stay connected with me.

You can find me online at dr.

Azhi.

Co.

That's d-r-a-z-i dot c-o.

You can send me a note there.

I have a Facebook group.

It's called Circle of Insight.

And I do all sorts of things,

Both online and in person.

I do coaching groups.

I do one-on-one coaching.

I facilitate masterminding groups for business people.

I do mindfulness and meditation.

And really,

All of the things that I do are centered around the principle that God believes in us.

Every single day,

We wake up and we're here.

And that means that there are a lot of forces in this universe coming from a very divine place that want us to be here and need us to be here and believe that we bring something special and something unique to this world.

And as such,

I believe in you.

And I make it my work to help you believe in yourself because really,

That's the hardest piece.

There's so much in this world coming up against us,

Including,

As we learned in this show,

Thoughts in our own heads.

And the process of positive self-talk and self-compassion and believing in ourselves,

These can all be learned.

These can all be learned.

So oftentimes,

I meet people that tell me,

I'm really not a technical person,

Or I'm really not a morning person,

Or I'm an insomniac and my mom told me that I was an insomniac from the time I was born.

And the truth is,

We are told a lot of different things about ourselves and they might not always be true.

So sometimes it's worth taking a step back and reevaluating those beliefs.

Beliefs are thoughts that we have come to accept as truths and what if they're not true?

What if they're not true?

It's worth looking at.

So I'm thinking of creating some kind of tool for you to use in order to start evaluating what those beliefs are and start getting a sense of insight and awareness about what your beliefs are and how they could possibly be limiting you as well as how to break through.

So I'm working on that.

In the meantime,

I would say give yourself the gift of time and space and silence and you're already doing it.

You're already pursuing your learning and your joy and your happiness by being here and by listening to this.

So thank you for being here and when you turn this off,

If you can thank yourself,

Just thank yourself the way that Mark really set forth to talk to yourself using that you pronoun for giving yourself the time and for staying in this pursuit of happiness and well-being.

We can be so much more when we're happy and when we're optimistic and it can be a real challenge but you are doing it and you are doing it well.

So I want you to give yourself that and I challenge you today that every single time you hear like a self-deprecating or self-doubting voice,

So come up with three possible other truths,

Three possible other ideas,

Thoughts and ways of speaking to yourself that are either neutral or positive.

I loved what Mark said about starting neutral and then going positive.

It's kind of a way to ease ourself out of that negativity and into a different space.

So I challenge you to do it and check in with me.

Let me know how it goes.

I would love,

Love,

Love to hear from you.

Have a blessed week and be sure to tune in next week.

Next week is going to be all about mindfulness from a spiritual perspective.

I'm having a conversation with my friend,

Rabbi Dr.

Benjamin Epstein,

Who is the author of an incredible new book.

It's called Living in the Presence,

A Jewish guide to everyday mindfulness.

And it's just,

It's one of a kind.

Well,

I'm speechless.

So I'll see you next week and we'll learn all about it.

Bye.

T

Reviews

Thank you Dr. Azi for your wonderful interview with Marc Cordon (sp?). And for your joyful podcast/show. I happened upon this quite by accident searching for talks this morning (like 3 a.m morning on one of those restless nights!) and couldn’t believe my ears that what I was hearing was actually true. (Those 3 a.m. mornings often result in such mind wanderings for me) Anyway, the message and joy and positivity were so heartfelt and perfect for were I am at and for what I needed to hear. No accidents, right? Thank you again for what you brought and what you are bringing. I am grateful.

Wonderful talk! Thank you!