Caren Prentice On Using Mindfulness To Transform Anger

Meditation teacher Caren Prentice of Hamsa Meditation Center shares the story of her own transformation around anger. She'd begun practicing meditation, and she knew she didn't want to keep responding to her husband and kids with anger, but for a while she didn't know another way. She shares the magic of that in-between space with us.

Transcript

I'm so delighted to share my conversation with Karen Prentiss on the magic of in-between spaces with you today.

Karen is a meditation teacher,

And she shares her own experience of an in-between time when she'd started a spiritual practice and was beginning to see the toll her anger was taking on her relationships,

But she didn't yet know how to relate differently with situations that made her angry.

She was able to stay quiet instead of lashing out in anger,

And eventually in that quiet space that replaced her angry response,

Her own inner wisdom began to show up and guide her to a new way of responding.

Karen began meditating in 1972,

But struggled for decades to establish a consistent meditation practice.

During the 80s and 90s,

As she juggled career,

Family,

And eventually became a stay-at-home mom to four kids,

She continued to study different traditions and techniques,

Looking for a way to feel less angry and frustrated.

In 1999,

She discovered Kriya Yoga and found a meditation technique she actually enjoyed practicing regularly,

And this is the tradition she carries on.

Karen is not aligned with any one school of meditation.

Rather,

She considers herself simply a meditation teacher,

Using her background in yoga,

Mindfulness,

And Tibetan Buddhism to help her students find joy in meditating using techniques that work best for their personality and lifestyle.

In 2009,

Her students gave her the name Meditation Mama.

Several years ago,

She opened Hamsa Meditation Center,

Which has evolved into a small,

Friendly online meditation community serving people of all ages all over the country.

I hope you enjoy this conversation with Karen about the magic of in-between spaces.

Welcome to Letting Grow,

The podcast about one of the spiritual journey's most difficult and courageous moments,

Letting go of who we think we should be so we can grow into who we most deeply are.

I'm your host,

Claire Villareal,

And I appreciate your joining me today.

First I just want to thank you so much,

Karen,

For being willing to share your wisdom and your presence with me and whoever is listening or watching later.

You have been such a warm mentoring kind of figure in my life,

And I'm really,

Really pleased to get to share your wisdom with other people,

Too.

Well,

I got the inspiration for having this conversation from an earlier conversation that we had about all the transitions I'm going through.

I remember you just took the conversation into this really magical and wise place.

I remember talking about the process of transitions and where we got to is like,

So there's the old self,

The old identity,

And in the process of death and rebirth or the process of a transition in this lifetime,

There's something that's being stripped away,

That old identity in some way is falling apart.

And then there's this period between the collapse of the old identity and the birth of a new identity where we're just more naked to the world.

And I remember specifically,

I remember you saying it's so important to allow the magic and to not give up.

I think sometimes I feel tempted to just go back if it doesn't look like the path forward is clear and is obvious.

So I kind of just want to make a space for you to share your wisdom about that.

If you want to use stories from your own life to illustrate it,

That would be awesome.

But whatever teachings you have,

I will happily take them in,

Karen.

Well,

When you brought this up,

I was reflecting back and what comes most readily to mind when we talk about this is the experience I had when I was trying to change a long standing way of being,

Right,

An identity.

And as we all know,

As we start on this path and we start growing up and the old ways don't work anymore,

Right?

But we don't know how to do it differently.

And so what was happening,

This was back in the 90s.

And I was bumping up against the part of me that was really angry.

I had a lot of anger,

A lot of rage and a lot of criticism and blame.

And I don't know that I understood back then the way I do now that I was coming out of a paradigm where I was raised in an angry household.

My dad was an alcoholic and an angry alcoholic.

And I was kind of the brunt of it because I was the oldest.

My mom was angry,

But she was angry in a very quiet,

Like this way,

Very turned inward and her mouth would just get tight.

It was like,

Yeah.

And that turned into a depression.

It was like they had the two types of anger,

But that was the stew that I was formed in.

And part of that way of being was you were always,

Nobody ever gave us this instruction,

But we were taught to blame everybody else in the world for everything that was wrong.

Nothing was ever our fault.

It was always somebody else's fault to the point where I would,

When I was parenting,

I would say to a kid,

If you hadn't done that,

Then all of these other things wouldn't have happened.

And I was the weight of the problems of the world on the fact that my kid didn't pick up their sock or something.

And not nicely,

Right?

Angrily.

So enter this real sincere desire to change because the paradigm wasn't working.

I didn't want to be angry like that anymore.

And I started meditating.

And what happens,

As you know,

With meditation is it changes us in subtle ways we don't realize.

Suddenly we just were more aware.

And in that awareness,

We've also learned how to kind of step back and just kind of notice what's going on.

And I was in that process of change where I was beginning to notice and realize it wasn't everybody else's fault.

The anger was inside me and these reactions were coming up inside me.

And so that shift,

This transition,

This transformation from being a blaming,

Angry at the world,

It's all your fault person to taking responsibility for my own reactions and choosing how to respond.

I mean,

That's like two different people,

Right?

It's two different people.

And when I first started doing this,

What would happen is I remember we had a very tiny house.

So the kitchen and living room were all connected and it was tiny.

And I would be sitting there in my kitchen or standing there doing something and a kid would come through and I could just feel myself going.

I just,

It was like,

I was just,

I was just angry,

But I could watch the anger.

I could see it.

And I knew I didn't want to do it,

But I didn't know how to do it differently.

I didn't know.

I literally somewhere in my head,

I thought,

Oh,

If I meditate,

I'll know how to do it different.

I'm respectful and kind and gentle and,

You know,

No,

Just all the wise things to say,

I wish.

Right.

Right.

But that's not what happens.

What they tell you is to,

To,

To,

To,

To meditate,

To,

To watch your breath,

Come back from the thoughts and just come back to the breath again and again or whatever the technique.

Right.

And I've gotten good at that.

So what that gave me the skill to do was when I was getting upset,

It gave me the skill to come back from that upset into the moment.

But until I had grown enough to find another way to do it,

This was to me was the magic place where I could figure out how to just and Claire,

This kind of sounds so simple,

So silly,

But it's not,

I had to just learn how to keep my mouth shut.

Right now I'm raised in a more soprano like environment,

Right?

Not 11 light,

But yelling at each other,

You know,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah.

And don't say it.

Are you nuts?

Of course I'm going to say it.

So,

So I feel on one hand,

Okay,

I'm keeping my mouth shut because I know what's about to come out is not going to help the situation,

But at the same time,

I'm having to re literally rewrite my whole programming,

Which was say it,

Just,

Just yell,

Just,

Just get it out there.

So now I'm not doing that.

Now I'm trying to keep my mouth shut because I know that I'm just making things worse,

But keeping your mouth shut when you're upset,

When you're angry and not saying it is really,

I didn't even know how to do that.

I had to literally,

That's all I worked on for quite a while was I don't want to be that person anymore.

I'm doing so much damage recognition of that.

Now here I am.

All I can do is learn how to keep my mouth shut and hope that as I can do that,

I will gain other skills.

And I guess that's kind of what I just trusted that other skills would come as I calm down and I had more perspective.

And so to me,

I feel like those years where I learned to keep my mouth shut,

I would Claire,

I would literally walk out of the room.

I'd be in the kitchen.

My kid would start in at me or somebody or my husband who didn't matter.

I was angry at everybody.

Right.

And,

And I would be trying not to get upset.

Well,

If you're quiet,

They don't know what's going on.

So they're going to keep doing what they're doing.

Cause they want that reaction.

That's what they're used to.

Right.

And I would literally walk out of the kitchen going,

I'm not going to do it.

I'm not going to do it.

I'm not going to say it.

I'm I refuse to go down that road again.

I refuse.

I would literally say out loud and I didn't care if they thought I was nuts.

I just wanted that badly to change.

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Now let's get back to the good stuff.

I just wanted that badly to change.

That makes sense.

Yes.

Okay.

And so I would leave and I would just,

I started with this.

Okay.

If I don't make it worse,

If I don't perpetuate the old pattern,

This will,

Will,

And this is actually what happened.

It just opens up a space to be different.

And this is where I think of the Bardo you talk about something,

You know,

Where I was literally just suspended in,

I don't know,

I was just spent,

I don't know what to do next.

So I'm not going to do anything.

I'm going to just be right here because I know if I do that and go that way,

I know what that looks like.

And that's not good,

But I don't have enough new newness yet to be able to do anything in that direction without probably the old habit coming in and coming out of my mouth like poison.

Yeah.

Oh my God.

I'm just like,

So struck by the wisdom,

The wisdom to know that you have to leave the old behind the wisdom of trust in you,

Even when it doesn't give you answers yet for what your situation is presenting you with.

And like the trust,

The sense of trust that I get hearing your description of like someday it's going to come.

Wow.

That's amazing.

I just wanted to like highlight those things because I mean,

I think those are actually for me,

At least the hard parts of being in that in-between space.

Isn't it though?

And I think that's why a teacher is so important,

Right?

Because we have somebody who we can look at and go,

They've been here.

They're telling me to do this.

And if I do this,

I will become more like them.

And so I,

I literally trusted because I didn't have any option.

I just knew I didn't want to go back that way.

I couldn't do that anymore.

I had done so much damage and to my kids,

To my husband,

And I just,

I couldn't bear the thought of doing that anymore.

And so that was the motivation.

Right.

And I just trusted my teacher and I literally just,

You know,

I,

Today I know.

Today I understand that just learning how to bring our mind back from a thought to a different thought of our choosing.

That's the power that meditation gives us.

Right.

I mean,

That's simple little,

Just bring your mind back again,

Come back,

Just come back to what you're choosing for it to be focused on.

And that's what gave me little by little built the tools and the strength and the muscle to be able to stand there.

Cause I remember I,

My,

My 60 year old one time,

She just,

She knew she knew that she just kept at me long enough.

I blow right.

And as soon as I blow,

She was back in charge.

She was back in power.

Right.

Because now the issue is my anger.

The issue was no longer her behavior.

Did I say that clearly enough?

Okay.

So these were my children were my biggest teachers and my,

My,

My,

My Natalie was,

Was the best because she would,

She would just kind of,

She knew they know right.

How to,

How to just respond or look at me or do whatever.

And no matter how quiet I was being and trying not to do it,

That trigger and boom,

I go,

And after several failures,

I mean,

Quite a few Claire,

You know how this goes,

Right?

We just,

We don't do it right.

We don't do it well.

We totally screw up.

Right.

And after enough of those,

There was enough clarity in my brain that went,

No,

No,

No,

I know what's going to happen here.

I'm going to blow.

And the issue isn't going to be me.

You're just going to be,

And you were going to be absolved from the fact that you were out all night.

Then you were out all night doing things you weren't supposed to be doing.

Well,

I didn't want you to be with,

Right.

It was like brilliant on her part.

So when you got a teacher like that,

I got better at controlling it,

Staying calm,

Staying centered and not,

Not what would you call it?

Getting triggered,

Not flashing,

Not,

Not blowing up.

And little by little,

It was true.

What happened was this,

This,

And I think this is the magic Claire,

Is when we can rest in this place of not knowing without the heat,

Eventually the heat dissipates.

It just,

It's,

It's you,

The,

By not speaking,

Not making it worse,

The reflection we do afterwards recognizing,

Okay,

Just,

Just to be able to choose to have the,

Okay,

She's,

She's playing me right now.

Oh my gosh,

She's got me.

Then I'm,

I'm in a game as opposed to a,

A rage.

Does that make sense?

Yes.

And at that point now I've found my,

My in between place where I'm not that other person.

I'm not yet the new,

But I'm not,

I'm not being literally pulled by those forces of anger and rage.

They've eased.

I've learned how to bring my mind back to a present moment.

And the present moment was just my feet on the floor,

Looking at her,

Hearing her voice,

Smelling the smells in the kitchen.

And then it kind of opens up.

And this to me was the beauty was the thought would come.

I didn't have to plan what to say.

When I was in that open space,

A thought would come in of what to say.

And I had enough now enough skill to deliver it without snarky,

Sarcastic,

Bitchy.

Tote.

Right.

Yeah.

So,

So,

So is this kind of what you were talking about?

Yes,

Absolutely.

That the moment that really kind of catches my attention from what you just described is that moment when a thought would come like another thought.

I don't know.

I don't know how to talk about like that magic of,

Of not doing the old thing,

Creating the space.

And then sometimes that comes and it's,

It's not something we can control,

But I love,

You know,

The sense of meditation,

Opening that space in your life,

And then being able to have that internal awareness of,

Of the usual thoughts.

And then if you don't follow them,

Something else happens.

And and I guess maybe that's why I love meditation so much is because in this process,

I learned that when I can just be in this in between,

Trust it,

Not scared of it.

But,

You know,

After you've been there a while,

You get pretty comfortable just kind of hanging out in,

Like,

I don't know.

I don't know.

I spent a lot of time there,

Right?

And it's better than that one.

And I'm not,

Something's not taking me really forward yet.

But they're really that I learned to trust that a thought comes.

It's and it's,

On some level,

Like maybe,

Maybe it's just something now,

That if I was to look at it,

From the perspective of all these years of meditation,

It's like,

Of course,

A thought comes.

Of course,

A thought comes.

It's like we are tapped into we are part of something so rich,

So full of goodness,

So full of wisdom.

It's there.

It's this other part of us that's getting in the way.

So of course,

If I just I'm going to use the word surrender and trust,

That innate wisdom and goodness is going to have a space to bubble up and astound me.

I love it.

I was like,

Even when you say it's my wisdom,

It's not my wisdom.

I just got out of the way and this other stuff started showing up and it worked and my life got better and my family dynamics improved.

And actually,

I mean,

This is in the front of my head,

Just because we just had even though it was a very small Thanksgiving,

My kids were all able to come over for Thanksgiving.

And this is the truth,

Claire,

Is back in the day,

I mean,

I was from such an angry family and I was been so angry that when I would go watch these movies where they would open with everybody coming into the house with their food and everybody laughing and smiling and hugging each other and laughing,

Laughing.

And you know,

With the movie would open like this,

I'd be thinking to myself,

What the F?

Who lives like that?

That's not real life.

Real life is bitchy,

Angry.

Why did you wear the vest?

Why did you bring that?

I asked you to put the table,

Why didn't you set the table?

But what's happened is as I shifted and allowed myself to trust the magic of this part of us that is very real,

It wants to bring us happiness and joy and harmony and humor and laughter,

Right?

When my family gets together now,

We have those families.

And I look at that and I look at everybody laughing and smiling and getting along and wanting to be together.

And I don't take it for granted.

To me,

It's the manifestation of the growth and the magic and the power of this transitional place.

So beautifully said to me is their invitation to this other way of being.

Wow,

I love it.

I mean,

I just I love the richness of this mysterious other place.

I love the encouragement to just to trust it.

You know,

And it's not like a bind trust.

You're already meditating,

You're already seeing changes.

And to trust that there's something within us that has the wisdom for whatever's coming next.

I just feel like that nourishes my soul.

How do you understand that part of ourselves that comes out when we make this space for it?

Like,

What would you call that?

Or how would you describe it?

When I when I feel connected to that part of me,

I feel like I am connected to life itself.

It's like I'm connected to it almost tear it chokes me up,

You know,

Because it's just,

It's not,

It's not,

It's me,

But it's not me.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Me in my wholeness,

It's me,

My eternal connection to,

To whatever it all is.

That's that's how I know there's something is,

I feel it.

I sense it.

And it's,

It's real.

And you know,

This,

Nobody can take it away from us.

It's like,

We've touched it,

We know it's there.

And sure,

Life comes along.

And you know,

We lose track.

But but once you've experienced it,

You know,

Yeah.

And to me,

It's just it's the it's the it's life itself.

It's the beauty and wisdom and goodness of life.

I guess that's how I'd say it right now.

What do you think?

Um,

I think in a way,

My academic background maybe gets in the way of my having a simple answer.

Um,

I think of it as Buddha nature,

But that's sort of like a shorthand,

You know,

And now what does that mean?

Buddha nature?

I think what I just described as Buddha nature.

Exactly.

That's what I was thinking.

I was like,

Oh,

That's the like the best non Buddhist sounding description of Buddha nature.

You know,

Both the sense that it's,

It's who we are at our deepest level,

And the sense that it's not me,

You know,

Like,

There's not a like,

You can't stick a label on it like,

Oh,

This is enlightened Claire.

No,

It's just,

You know,

You said it's it's life.

It's the wholeness.

One of Anne Klein,

One of our teachers,

One of her book titles is Unbounded Wholeness,

Which is about Dzogchen,

Like the great completeness practices in the Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddhism.

And the idea is,

Each of us is an unbounded wholeness,

The world we participate in is an unbounded wholeness.

I just I kind of love the way that you've highlighted that we need to make a space for this to show up,

But then it just comes from its own side.

We can't lose it.

We can't be so bad that we're beyond the reach of like our own true nature.

That doesn't even make sense.

No,

It doesn't.

And I think that's why I love what Anne and Harvey have taught us.

Because you have the more academic understanding,

Right?

You've got the vocabulary and the incredible gift for describing and explaining these things.

What I've,

I have,

I just simply have the experience of living it.

It's like,

I love Dzogchen because it's it.

I touch that place again.

But it's a place that I can touch in my life,

In my day to day life.

And to me,

That's the point of my life is to help me get there.

So God bless my little Natalie,

Who was my biggest teacher,

My husband,

Bill,

Just,

You know,

These my kids,

My husband are my are my real life teachers.

And there's Anne and Goswami Prananda and Harvey and you are the.

.

.

Thanks for coming along for today's exploration of the process of letting grow.

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See you again next week.

Oh my God,

It was true.

Oh my God,

This has been such a lovely conversation.

Thank you so much,

Karen.

I just feel like there's so much wisdom and so many blessings that you've shared with me and hopefully other people will get to enjoy them too.

Thank you so much.

And I look forward to hopefully our next conversation.

Me too,

Claire.

You are absolute joy and delight in my life,

In my heart,

In my soul.

So thank you,

Thank you,

Thank you and many,

Many,

Many auspicious blessings for you as you move forward as a teacher.

Reviews

1st time listener. Great guest. I appreciate the talk because it reaffirmed that through meditation I am slowly transitioning into a person I am proud to be. I didn’t know I had an anger problem, I thought I was passionate and right. Nope it was anger. I was trying to cover up things. Karen described her transition. It doesn’t feel good at times. But with time it has been a good change. It really resonated. I to am thankful for my daughter who challenged me. I am better because of her. Thank you for sharing the podcast.

Full of wisdom — and for me, hope that there can be another way to deal with all kinds of emotions that come flooding in. Thank you so much for sharing this conversation with us!