Interview: The Work With Byron Katie

Exclusive interview with Byron Katie, Author and Creator of The Work. In this interview you will be challenged to examine your thoughts and beliefs about everything. And learn a new way of seeing yourself, the world, and the people around you.

Transcript

Welcome,

Katie.

How are you?

Thank you.

It's very good to talk to you one-on-one.

This is fun.

Thank you,

Basapi.

Oh,

No problem,

Katie.

It's Vasavi.

It's like,

Say la vie.

Vasavi.

Yes.

Beautiful.

So Katie,

I come across so many people in my coaching practice,

And it's quite clear that most people are not truly happy.

I mean,

And I'm talking about happy in a lasting way,

In a way that is so deeply ingrained in every fiber of our bodies,

But it's clear that because of the work that you have done,

The inquiry that you have been and have implemented in your life,

You're happy.

But there was a point in your life where you literally lived in hell for a long time.

It was awful.

Depression,

Any of you that may be listening to this,

There is a way out.

The depression,

It was so suffocating.

I was so suicidal.

It was like a dark hole in a cave where there was no light to even go to,

And it was forever.

That's what it seemed like.

And I woke up one morning,

Actually a cockroach crawled over my foot.

I was sleeping on the floor because I was so full of self-loathing.

I didn't believe I even deserved a bed to sleep in.

And so on this morning,

As that bug crawled over my foot,

I opened my eyes,

And just like you do every morning,

I woke up,

But I woke up in another way.

In that moment,

There was no identification,

And in just that moment when the mind hit my head,

It was like I saw the cause of suffering.

I saw that when I believed my thoughts,

I suffered,

But when I questioned my thoughts,

When I didn't believe my thoughts,

I didn't suffer,

And I've come to see that this is true for every human being.

And my work is free on the website.

You know,

It's like I have all kinds of things for sale,

And I want everyone to know you don't need it.

It's on my site,

It's simple,

And anyone with an open mind can do it.

And I loved where you started with willingness.

That's just,

You know,

That's such a help,

And we really want to make sense of this world.

So,

Katie,

You know,

I wanna ask what shifted for you,

And I know that,

You know,

A cockroach did crawl over your foot,

But I'm assuming that something internally really shifted for you.

Yes,

It was a huge shift,

And let's get it down to where everyone can understand it,

And it's like everyone has the opportunity to realize what I realized,

And then just to continue to grow.

But let's say I'm in the kitchen,

And my husband bumps into me,

And he doesn't apologize,

And he just keeps right on going,

And I have stumbled,

And maybe hit my hip on the counter,

Or something,

And I have the thought,

He doesn't care about me.

Oh,

Yeah.

So if everyone listening,

You find a situation where you experience he doesn't care about me,

Or she doesn't care about me,

Someone in your life that doesn't care about you.

Okay,

So he doesn't care about me.

The first question,

There are four questions.

The first question is,

Is it true?

And then the answer would be yes or no,

So it takes stillness to answer that question,

Because we wanna answer out of anger first,

But this is about something deeper.

It's about your truth,

Because no one else can give you that.

And we're also brainwashed to believe other people.

It's like,

Don't you wanna know what you think?

You have to think for yourself.

So he doesn't care about you,

Is it true?

He doesn't care about you.

Can you really know that that's true?

That's the second question.

And the third question,

Notice how you react,

What happens when you believe that thought,

And the moment you believe that thought,

And then you notice maybe a sadness,

Or you became a victim immediately,

And he maybe looks at you,

And maybe you've been punishing him for hours,

And he doesn't even know why,

And maybe you don't even remember,

And maybe you do,

But you're still believing he doesn't care about you.

So,

And I'll put it on me,

He doesn't care about me.

So then the fourth question,

Who would I be living with this man in that moment,

And right now,

Living with this man without the thought he doesn't care about me?

And then to notice without that thought what's really going on.

Maybe I missed something.

And then turned around,

You know,

I invite people to turn the concept to the opposite,

Because the work four questions and turnarounds.

So turned around,

He does care about me.

Huh,

How could that be true?

He bumped into me,

I've got all the proof he doesn't care.

Okay,

Find an example,

He does care about me.

Okay,

Well,

Actually,

I can see in that fourth question,

I can see he wasn't watching where he was going.

Ah,

He was trying to dial a thing on his cell phone.

He just was blitzed out.

And then I find another example,

And then if I find two,

I can find three.

If I find three,

I can find four.

And eventually,

I begin to see,

Hmm,

The things aren't always what I believe them to be.

Then another turn around,

I don't care about him.

And then I see in that moment,

Finding examples,

How I immediately gave him the look.

And how I immediately began to punish,

And I've been doing it maybe all day.

So,

Katie,

I'm actually gonna ask if I can be your guinea pig in the third sec.

Can I do just one more?

Yeah,

Yeah.

Okay,

Another turn around,

He doesn't care about me another turn.

I don't care about me.

Okay,

The moment I believed that thought and didn't question it,

I wasn't caring about me.

It hurts me when I turn myself into a victim.

And I don't care about me when I punish him.

Okay,

I just want to get all the turnarounds in there,

All the opposite.

I absolutely love it.

And I wanted to kinda,

I know my listeners love when I'm the guinea pig,

Because they actually get to experience it again.

So we're gonna do it again in third segment,

Because I have a juicy one for you.

Great.

So let me preface my next question with this.

The thoughts that people have are so real to them.

Yes.

And I love you.

They're so real,

They create the world.

I know,

And- The world as we understand it to be,

But I've come to see that the universe is friendly.

And if I don't see it that way,

And pain will let me know if I'm not seeing it that way.

But if I'm not seeing it that way,

It's me that's crazy.

It's not the world that's off,

It's the way I am viewing the world that's off.

Oh,

I love what you just said,

Katie.

If you're in pain,

So I'm gonna kinda reframe it.

So if you're in pain,

That means that you're believing your thoughts.

That's right.

If I'm suffering,

I need to look to my own head.

Wow.

No one can make me a victim.

That's my job.

So Katie,

I love your job description.

It's so simple,

It's so clear,

To teach people how to stop suffering.

Let me ask you this.

I mean,

How is suffering created?

We believe our thoughts,

That's it.

That's it,

Huh?

Yeah.

So- And I'll say a little more.

We believe the thoughts that wouldn't match.

It's a friendly universe.

In other words,

People who believe so deeply in God,

And they're so close.

Anything that we believe against that kind of divinity goes against our true nature,

What we'll say is God intended us,

Or as just our true nature.

And of course it hurts.

We're coming out of a mind that is the opposite of what is kind and what is right,

And what is our birthright,

Our freedom.

Okay,

So I wanna hold on to the word freedom for a second.

I wanna talk about happiness.

We throw around the word happiness all the time.

And it's so clear,

And I may sound biased or patriotic,

But I feel like in the Western society,

We are always looking for happiness outside of us.

What is happiness in your opinion,

In your expertise?

You don't have to say,

For me,

It's the absence of suffering.

I'll settle for that.

Okay,

Katie,

I gotta tell you this.

Okay,

I'm very close to my father,

Okay?

Yesterday I was talking to my dad,

And I said,

What's your definition of happiness?

He said,

Absence of unhappiness.

That's what he said.

It kinda sounds like he was saying,

So happiness is absence from suffering.

Yeah,

And when we're not suffering,

You know,

That's a really nice state.

And I am talking about physically as well as emotionally.

It's a really nice place to be.

And we're so creative in that,

And we have so much energy,

And we can make changes that affect the entire world.

You know,

You talked about freedom,

And we talk about freedom too,

A lot.

And I wanna ask you,

What is true freedom?

The absence of fear.

Wow,

It's so simple.

How did you make it so simple?

Well,

You know,

It had to be simple.

I was desperate.

It had to be so simple that a poor,

Messed up,

Agoraphobic,

Depressed,

Clinically depressed human being could get it,

And it really works.

And it's,

You know,

Anyone whose mind is open to these four questions and turnarounds,

It's there for us.

So Katie- It's just a state of grace.

State of grace.

You know,

Katie,

I wasn't gonna share this on the radio.

I wasn't even gonna talk about it with you,

But I have to now that you've talked about the depression.

And I'm assuming you're medication-free?

Yes.

Okay,

So I- Love it.

Yes,

And I have to share- Well,

I'm not medication-free.

I use vegetables and fruits and air and water and walking,

And you know,

That's it.

It's enough.

Natural medicine.

So I have to share this with you.

I just wanna be very transparent.

You know,

For the past 10 years,

I was on lithium for bipolar disorder.

And I have like brought it down to a very simple equation that for me,

Bipolar disorder was me believing my thoughts.

It was a battle between my ego and my higher consciousness.

That's right.

And I've been off medication for two months.

It's only been two months.

I have never felt better.

I'm eating more fruits,

More vegetables,

Drinking water,

Like it's my job outside every day.

And we believe our thoughts,

And so we suffer.

And everyone tried to tell me,

Especially my mom,

The doctors,

You know,

You have this chemical imbalance.

And I said,

No,

I don't.

I have a problem called I let my ego run my life.

That's the problem.

And also for your listeners,

Where my mind's going with this is that also,

How do I react when I believe the thought,

For example,

He doesn't care about me,

It throws my chemical balance off.

So I am the one even,

You know,

I'm responsible for that too.

I questioned my thoughts,

It levels out again.

So even believing our thoughts changes and transforms our chemical.

Absolutely.

Wow.

Just like fruits,

Vegetables,

Or sugar and coffee,

You know,

Whatever it is you're allergic to that you don't do well with.

And,

You know,

The closer to what is real is where we really do best.

I sound like a nutritionist,

But I've just noticed it's just my own experience.

So I have just,

You know,

The clearer our minds get,

The choices are just obvious to us.

And it's like I say,

You know,

When I found the work,

It's like smoking quit me,

Coffee quit me.

I didn't quit it,

It quit me.

It just no longer seems same.

And I would guess that you've done just enough work that you saw the cause of your suffering and it just all started adding up.

And you're just very clear about where suffering,

You know,

The cause of suffering.

The cool thing about your work,

And guys,

If you,

I mean,

Katie,

On her website,

Thework.

Com,

There are,

I've done all the worksheets,

By the way,

Katie,

I did all of them to prep for this interview just so I could,

I wanted to do the work before I interviewed the master of the work.

Guys,

If you go to her website,

Thework.

Com,

There are like,

I think about 10 downloadable sheets.

You can do them,

You can do the work at home.

I love that about you,

Katie,

You've given access to the work.

You know,

And then it's so much fun for you listeners.

You don't have to sign up,

You don't have to leave your email address,

You don't have to belong to anything,

You don't have to have newsletters,

It's just yours.

You just print it out,

It's yours.

And I love,

You know,

Again,

You know,

It's,

The work takes you back to yourself,

And that's where you tap into the wisdom,

And it's within you,

And the work is like a gateway to it.

All,

All of these thoughts and assumptions that we're believing,

They're all recycled,

And if you look at,

Like,

The oldest,

The oldest stories we have,

You know,

Some of them,

Like Gilgamesh,

Which I've been told is the oldest one,

It was chiseled on rock,

You know,

And those,

The same thoughts we're suffering today are the same ones they were suffering then.

So it is,

You know,

This mythology,

We have just not known how to question it,

And here it is,

Now we do,

And it's nothing we have to do,

But it's certainly there for us when things get tough,

It can really help,

You know,

It gives each of us an opportunity to get grounded and right with ourselves,

And see where we're at fault in any way,

Recognize it,

Admit it,

Make it right where we can,

And start over,

And in this experience of self-love,

Which is,

Self-love for me is a term where I'm,

You know,

I'm balanced,

I'm right with the world,

And I'm left with this,

In this state of compassion,

And how can I help,

You know,

Just a life of service and loving it.

So guys,

I,

Katie,

I was so,

I really wanna come,

I just looked it up,

Guys,

It's October 12th through the 21st in LA.

Katie,

I'm there,

My calendar is free,

My friend.

Oh,

That is so,

That will be so much fun.

I know you said,

You know,

You don't make any promises,

But guys,

Here's the thing,

Right,

The work works if you allow it to work and you're willing.

Yeah.

That's it.

Yeah.

If you're willing to release the crap that you've been holding onto,

Excuse my French,

Katie,

But if you're willing to release everything,

And there's a beautiful process that you can do it,

You have to be willing to let it go.

That's the number one step,

We talked about that.

Yeah,

We've heard be still and know,

Well,

We ask the questions and wait,

And the answer comes,

And all we had to do was ask,

And we've heard it's the truth that sets us free.

Well,

It is that truth that is shown to us that sets us free,

And we don't have to have it secondhand anymore.

It's within each of us,

And it is the nature we're born out of before we can,

You know,

It just makes sense,

And like you say,

It works.

It works.

It works if our minds are open to the questions.

So Katie,

I wanna talk about staying in our own business,

Right?

People love to tell other folks what they need to be doing.

You should get a job.

You should or shouldn't be married or dating him or her.

You should be thinner,

Et cetera.

You know,

How does not staying in our own business cause us to suffer?

Well,

You know,

Let's just say I'm in California,

And you know,

Physically I'm here,

And let's say my daughter's in Alaska with my grandchildren,

And so I'm talking to you on this interview,

But mentally I'm running my daughter's life and my grandchildren's life in Alaska.

They can't hear me.

They can't see me.

It's absolutely doing no good.

I'm talking to you,

And I'm getting so upset,

So upset,

And you know,

Out of touch,

Out of touch.

So I talk about the three kinds of business.

You know,

I'm disconnected.

I'm separate.

So you know,

Whose business is it what I am doing?

Okay,

That's my business.

Now I can handle that.

I'm talking to you.

Now life is very simple.

Okay,

Whose business is it what my daughter is doing?

Well,

Whether I like it or not,

It's her business.

She's in Alaska.

I have no power over that.

So I've come to see there are only three kinds of business in all of the universe,

Mine,

Yours,

And God's.

So you know,

I stay in my business.

God takes care of the weather,

Et cetera,

And as I've come to see everything,

But in the beginning,

It's like the weather,

And then what my daughter thinks,

That's her business.

So anytime you would feel like lonely or separate,

Just ask yourself mentally,

Whose business are you in just now in this moment?

And it doesn't mean I'm not gonna help people as a loving,

Caring human being.

Why wouldn't I?

I'm not crazy.

Of course I'm going to help people when they ask and offer good ideas if their mind is open to it,

But I'm just talking about home alone,

Miserable,

Unloved,

Uncared for,

Et cetera,

Et cetera.

And then just to notice when anytime you feel lonely,

Whose business mentally are you in?

And just that noticing will bring you right back into your body,

Right here,

Right now,

And that is where the sense of gratitude takes a life on.

It's like I'm sitting here,

I'm talking to my friend,

I'm supported on this chair I'm sitting in.

I look around,

I see flowers,

I see windows,

I see a ceiling wall.

I mean,

The whole world is here supporting me,

Right here,

Right now.

Whereas prior to that,

Living in my daughter's business,

I was unloved,

I was un-listened to,

I was separate.

I mean,

It's the difference just being present with what is,

It's a whole different world and it's the real one.

So,

And I don't know what my daughter's doing really.

But it all boils,

I mean,

And you talk about the shift in perception,

It's all because you chose to believe or not believe certain thoughts.

Yes,

But we're like asleep,

We don't realize we're doing that,

We're completely innocent.

It's like if someone said,

Katie,

I don't like you,

I would want to know why,

Because it could be something I could change.

So guys,

I did promise I'd be a guinea pig.

So Katie,

I got one question for you before we do that.

When I went to your website at thework.

Com,

I downloaded all the sheets and I did the work.

And I gotta tell you though,

Writing it down from mind to paper made a huge difference.

But what if someone wanting to do the work doesn't wanna write,

Can they just kinda ask the questions and turn it around in their head when they have a problem?

Well,

You know,

They can,

But they're really cheating themselves,

They could turn it around and find examples for each turnaround.

But they're really,

I would be really cheating myself because I need these four questions to see the cause of my suffering.

I believe the thought,

So identify the thought,

And then I question it,

And then I turn it around and find examples for the turnarounds.

And it's a process,

It's like checkmate.

So why not have it all?

And then when we're writing it down,

It's so cool because we're actually learning to identify the cause of our suffering,

The cause of those emotions and that feeling of separateness and loneliness.

And it's just really powerful.

Eventually,

If we do this,

Just for,

Well you know,

Just a couple of months,

Even a day,

We begin to see it's like my husband,

He wasn't the cause of my suffering.

My hip didn't even bruise.

It's like what I was believing about my husband,

That was the cause of my suffering.

And also,

There's this little $1.

99 phone app that we talked about earlier,

And it really is good to help us identify what we're thinking in the moment.

So guys,

Katie,

I actually wanna say a few words about your app.

Guys,

I just downloaded,

I think it's like $1.

99 on your iPhone,

You just search for the workapp.

Com.

You literally,

Every time I was having a stressful or anxious thought or a suffering thought,

I would type it in.

Katie,

The app actually takes you through the work,

And by the end of it,

You're like,

All right,

I've totally been caught up in my head.

Like you just have a sense of clarity that you did not have before you did the work.

So Katie,

We have about four and a half minutes.

So I wanna kinda laser through the work.

So there are four questions.

So I guess what you need from me now is my stressful thought,

Right?

Okay,

So guys,

I'm newly married.

You know,

There's a lot of junk that's brought on from childhood into your marriage,

You know,

Definitely.

So Katie,

One of the thoughts that I have is my husband's name is Ashish,

His name means blessing in Sanskrit,

And one of the thoughts that I have is Ashish doesn't really care about me.

Okay,

So he doesn't care about you.

Is that true?

No.

He doesn't care about you.

Now,

Skip the second question because if you answer no,

Yes on the first one,

Then the second one can be valuable.

But you sound pretty clear that that's your answer.

So the third question,

Notice how you react when you believe the thought,

He doesn't care about you.

I feel empty,

I get angry,

I feel anxious,

I wanna scream,

I feel like a loser,

I feel lonely.

Okay,

Now as you're witnessing the images that happen,

As you look back on this situation,

Notice how you treat him when you're feeling that way.

Notice how you react when you believe that thought.

We begin to attack.

I treat,

I don't care for him.

I do things and say things that would be indicative of me not caring for him.

Yeah,

Now,

Notice as you witness those images,

Who would you be without the thought?

Who would I be without the thought,

Ashish doesn't care about me.

This is a hard one.

This is it.

It is.

Cause it's like,

I've had this thought for years.

But look at the situation,

Where were you standing or sitting when you had that thought,

He doesn't care about me.

I told you when I was doing laundry yesterday.

Okay,

So you're doing laundry.

I was with my dog,

She was just kinda laying with me.

And who would you be without the thought?

I would be present,

I'd be happy in my own skin.

I would not be seeking,

I feel like it's a,

Like,

You know,

I would be right there in the moment,

Folding the laundry,

Watching my little.

Which is where you are.

Reality.

There's no,

He's not even there to make you,

To upset you.

It's all you.

Who are we without our thoughts then?

You know,

There are two realities.

It's,

I call it first generation reality.

I am the woman doing the laundry with a washing machine.

With a washing machine,

You know,

Just everything being done for me.

Mm-hmm.

Just,

You know,

Just witnessing the floor holding me and the air I'm breathing and the laundry detergents there.

I mean,

There is no problem.

Everything I need is there just in this moment.

It's like I'm here,

But I'm not here.

Yeah.

And then the other reality is,

Who would I be without those thoughts?

It's like our true,

You know,

It's like it is our essence.

You know,

It's like the essence of love.

But even to say that is,

It's for everyone to experience for themselves.

And in such a kinder world,

Just without my thoughts,

I even love him.

There's no one not to love.

And I love myself for not disliking him and for having all of this at my fingertips.

I mean,

It's,

You know,

If someone slaps me,

People say,

Katie,

Why do you look so happy?

Someone just slapped you.

And I would say,

You know,

It's simple.

It's over and I'm not crazy anymore.

Mm-hmm.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Yeah.

It's,

I'm grateful it's over.

If they slap me again,

I'm so grateful why it's over.

But if I project that,

Believe my thoughts about the situation,

It comes back and I see that person slapping me,

I recreate the plan.

I mean,

If it's so terrible,

Why do you continue to do it?

Well,

Why?

We're asleep to what we're thinking and believing and this work wakes us up.

And who would I be without the thought?

You know,

Looking into the eyes of that person and seeing a person that is in terrible pain because no one would harm another human being if they were not believing their thoughts and totally insane.

Of course he would slap me.

If I believed what he believed,

I would want to slap me too.

He's innocent.

And now if I hit someone or hurt someone,

Please do something about me,

Even if it's prison,

Because I hurt me when I hurt you.

And I'm going to continue to do it as long as I believe my thoughts.

Reviews

Byron Katie got this right. The Work is critical when one is engaging with and believing self defeating thoughts. Freedom is in the Work. Get honest, get free, be happy.

Stepping stones towards clarity… simple, self-empowering ‘clarity’… this is a wonderful conversation with many ‘Ahaa” moments for me X
Thank you xxx

Amazing
Thank you

Lovely

I dramatically changed my primary relationship within four hours of listening to this. I broke down walls between my husband and me that had been there 20 years!

Very simple, but profound ideas. Thank you 🙏🏼

Great interview!

Very interesting approach🙏

Love the work by Byron Katie. So liberating!

Inspirational and grounding

The end of suffering

SO Thankful that I took the time to listen to this ENLIGHTENING, INSPIRATIONAL and ENCOURAGING interview❣️
Thank you, Vasavi for bringing the Beautiful Wisdom of Byron Katie to us. 🙏🏻💕

Amazing! Thank you

I LOVE this so much, even with the voices ending at 7 min. Thank you 🌷

Absolutely wonderful, but the audio cut out with 7 minutes left!!!!