Podcast with Insight Timer CEO, Christopher Plowman

Christopher Plowman, CEO of Insight Timer, shares his vision for a kinder and calmer world where the whole world meditates each and every day.

Transcript

So hi,

I'm Tom Evans and welcome to another Zone Show.

Now I'm thrilled today to be speaking with Christopher Plowman,

The,

I guess the founder,

The acquirer,

The brains behind this wonderful app that I find myself on in Sight Timer.

Welcome Christopher.

Thank you Tom,

It's nice to be here.

Thanks for having me.

Yes,

I guess today we'll be checking out the Chill Out Zone,

Which is one of the zones in the book,

The Zone.

First of all,

I've got to say thank you,

Thank you to Maddie,

Who I know is not far away from you at the moment,

For discovering me about a year and a half ago and getting me to upload one of my meditations to the app because I had no idea that my meditations were world class,

So thank you for that.

Well,

I mean you're welcome Tom,

You are one of our,

Definitely our most popular teachers on the app,

We love having you.

For people who don't know about the app then and this name,

Insight Timer,

Because you acquired it,

Is that right?

Did you acquire it from some other developers or something?

Yes actually,

I mean really my brother Nico was the reason all of this happened.

He's a meditation teacher,

He was in the corporate world for quite some time and decided he,

You know,

That wasn't appealing to him anymore.

And my background is sort of tech and building communities and he kept coming to me and saying,

Let's do something in the meditation space and I kept saying,

No I'm not interested.

It just,

You know,

I was 40 at the time and I'd done my startups and they're all doing fine,

So I just thought the idea of getting back into this didn't appeal to me.

But Nico kept pushing and he told me I should go and do some of this meditate,

Which I did.

And finally I said to him,

Okay,

Look,

Let's give it a go.

But there's one condition,

Which is I don't want to do this again from scratch,

Which means I don't want to go and build a company and go and find the first user and then find the second user and then find the fifth user and the tenth user,

Because I've done that before and it takes a lot of money and a lot of time.

And so we agreed that we would find an existing app that had existing users acquire it and build on it.

And so he went off and had a look at a bunch of apps and I went off and had a look at a bunch of apps and we kept putting Insight Timer at the bottom of the list because it didn't look too good and it was a bit clunky and there was other shinier ones out there.

But in the end we sort of decided we didn't like any of them.

And one day in frustration we came back to Insight Timer and we discovered something which we hadn't seen previously,

Which was it had all of these groups on the app.

It had sort of 50,

000 people who were talking about meditation.

And so then we delved a little deeper and we realised that it had about 50,

000 regular meditators.

But there was a real sense of community there and it didn't have guided meditations.

There's a lot of things that it didn't have that we've introduced.

And so we thought,

OK,

This is the community that we think could become the sort of genesis of something very meaningful.

So Nico and I jumped on a plane and flew to San Francisco and made an offer to buy it.

And the guy that we bought it from had been approached by other people before but didn't like what they were planning.

So we presented to him what our plans were and he said yes.

So we bought the app in April 2015,

I think.

That's right,

A year and a half ago.

And that's how we came to be the sort of,

I don't like to say we're the owners of Insight Timer.

Technically we are.

I kind of feel like Nico and I are custodians.

You can't really own a community by definition.

A community is sort of a group of people that congregate around a shared set of ideals.

If they don't like the ideals,

They go somewhere else.

So we don't own the community.

I guess we own the platform.

And if we continue to do things that the community likes,

Then hopefully they'll continue to stay on the app.

And that's how we came to be the owners of Insight Timer.

Wow,

So that must be our final approach in about August 2015.

So it wasn't long after that.

And I think the ideal appeal to me was that you wanted to make meditation free and that the way to make a kinder world and a calmer world for all of us is to get the whole world meditating one person at a time.

Yes.

I mean,

Look,

There's a lot to unpack in that sentence actually.

And I'll try and do it justice because you've touched on a couple of very interesting things there.

The first thing we did when we bought the app was we made it free.

There are a lot of meditation apps on the market today,

Primarily mindfulness apps that sort of pitch themselves as free to get you to sign up.

But then after 30 days,

A paywall pops up and you have to pay to continue to meditate.

And for Nico and I,

This is just the antithesis of what meditation is all about.

Our sort of internal mantra is Insight Timer provides a free,

Meaningful,

Daily meditation practice,

Regardless of financial means.

And by that,

What we mean is you will never pay to jump on to Insight Timer,

Join the community,

Use the timer,

Track your stats and actually meditate every day.

It's not to say that we don't have aspirations to build a strong and healthy business.

Of course we do.

But we think that sort of conscious pursuits and commercial pursuits can come together in a more harmonious way.

We don't believe in the 30 day paywall approach.

We've got a different model.

We haven't implemented it yet because we're still upgrading the code from when we bought the app.

But our financial model is based around building a set of tools and products for people that teach meditation.

This is about building a network of tools so that people like yourself can join Insight Timer,

Offer some guided meditations to people as a way of introducing yourself.

And then when people become interested in you as a teacher,

If they want to explore further,

Then they can actually maybe take a course with you,

Which is something that you would charge for.

So for us,

We see a very big distinction between offering meditation tools for daily practice and then actually extending your spiritual journey through courses.

So that's what we did right from the start.

We made it free.

And the first thing we did was we bought Maddie on board,

As you know.

And we said,

Maddie,

We need to build the largest group of meditation teachers on the planet and we need to get them onto the app.

And that's exactly what she's done.

I think at last count,

We had almost 900 teachers on the app and the users love it.

The meditators love it and the teachers love it.

And that's our strategy.

And I've met some amazing people that I found a different version of me that didn't know exists,

Which is I'm eternally grateful for.

And two,

I've just met some amazing souls around the world.

And the sense of community is immense.

Yeah,

Look,

I always get a bit frustrated talking about the community on Insight Timer because so many other people talk about community as a throwaway line.

You know,

I'm not sure if we've got this great community of this or that.

You can't truly appreciate the depth of compassion that exists within the Insight Timer community until you join.

It's really it's unique to our product.

And we get so many people who say,

I signed up for the timer and I stayed for the friends.

And of course,

You know,

There's an interesting reason why we always talk about sort of the harmony between conscious and commercial pursuits.

And someone said to me the other day,

They said,

Well,

What is consciousness?

You know,

And of course,

I couldn't answer the question.

I spent so much time talking about it.

And I couldn't give it a description.

And he says,

I think it's connection.

He said,

You know,

Sense of connection with another individual.

And he said,

That's why people love Insight Timer,

Because actually,

It's a place where you sort of get a sense of consciousness,

Because there's such a deep connection with with a bunch of like minded souls.

I hope I'm not sounding too waffly here.

But I think it's true.

I think you you can't talk about Insight Timer without talking about the community.

These two things just go hand in hand.

And what's your personal meditation journey?

Because I didn't discover meditation.

So my mid 40s,

I've had a couple of burnouts.

And someone said,

You're stressed out,

We need to meditate.

And that's where I got into it.

What was your journey into this?

Well,

I mean,

Look,

I think most people probably come to meditation from a similar experience.

It might be different reasons.

But,

You know,

I think I was stressed out.

And my brother Nicko started to meditate.

He kept saying come along to the Monday night evening.

I was living in Sydney at the time where he was living.

And I was like,

Come on,

You know,

I'm not doing this meditation stuff.

It's ridiculous.

And in the end,

I just went,

I guess,

Really probably because of Nicko,

You know,

When your elder brother,

For whom you have a great deal of respect and love says you really need to try this,

I guess it's an easy step in.

And because I'd seen the changes in him having started meditation,

And then since he went on to become a meditation teacher,

It wasn't that someone needed to convince me of the benefits,

I could see them in this person that I knew so well.

The changes in him meant that it was easy for me to pick meditation up because I didn't have to sort of continually question whether or not there would be value at the end of this because of course,

You know,

Meditation is not like a shot in the arm.

It's not a it's not like a pill.

It's something that you need to do regularly in order to experience the benefits.

So I was lucky in that regard,

Because I had someone that I trusted,

Who essentially had,

You know,

Showed me the way already.

And so I do Vedic meditation,

Which is a mantra based meditation.

There are many,

Many different types of meditation,

And we have hundreds of different flavors,

If you like on Insight Timer.

But for me,

It's that particular one.

And I like it because it's gentle.

It's sort of,

You know,

You repeat your mantra.

And inevitably you end up thinking about other things.

And then you realize that you're thinking about other things.

And so you calmly bring yourself back to the mantra.

And I try and do it for 20 minutes every day,

I'd like to say I do it twice a day.

And in fact,

I don't do it every day,

Which is why we're launching this 365 day challenge in 2017.

But when I regularly regularly meditate,

I noticed the difference,

That's for sure.

And just talk about this this challenge.

I'm someone that does actually meditate every day.

In fact,

One of the things I teach is how not just to meditate for 10 to 20 minutes every day,

But how to stay in a state all the way through the day.

And I've got a meditation on the app that teaches you eyes open meditation.

I'll put a link to that in the in the show notes.

It's called getting in the zone.

So so but just tell us about this thing,

How the initiative,

The 365 initiative?

Well,

I mean,

I just actually it all it's all happened very suddenly in the last two days,

I was I was sitting on the couch at home on Sunday,

And thinking about the New Year,

My wife and I and the kids were going away to France for Christmas.

She's she's French my wife.

And you know,

Just feeling a little bit,

I don't know,

Frustrated a few things.

And I thought,

I haven't been meditating for the last couple of days.

And I thought,

I've tried.

I've really tried on a number of occasions in the last two to three years,

To stick with it every day.

And I've had periods where I've meditated sort of I think the record I did was 120 days.

And then,

You know,

You miss a day and so you miss two and then you come back and you're disappointed that you've broken your,

You know,

All of this stuff that we're trying to get rid of in our heads.

As a result of meditation takes a long time.

And I thought,

Right,

I watched this documentary about this guy.

It's called fat,

Sick and nearly dead or something.

And what he does is he says,

Right,

I'm going to publicly tell people that I'm going to lose weight and do this and do that.

And I thought this is actually a great idea,

You know,

I'm not going to stand on a soapbox.

But what I'm going to do is I'm going to reach out to the community and I'm going to be truthful.

And I'm going to explain to them that I struggle with the daily meditation practice.

And what am I going to do?

I'm going to turn to the one thing that we've got that I don't think exists anywhere else is I'm going to turn to the community.

So I sent out a post on the app on Sunday night and I said,

Right,

That's it.

I'm going to meditate every day in 2017 365 days.

Because I struggled to do it.

Who wants to do it with me?

And I thought we might get a couple of hundred people.

And I woke up the next morning and I had 1200 people who'd set up a group on the app called 365 day challenge.

And there was 1200 people that had signed up overnight,

I think we had 600 comments in the group.

And then I woke up the next morning and there was,

You know,

2000,

I think there's now this 3000 insight time of meditators who have joined this group.

And we're all committing to meditate at least once a day in 2017.

And so then I thought,

Right,

I mean,

To be honest,

I'm a little bit nervous by it,

Because I now feel a sense of responsibility,

You know,

To not let myself down and to not let the community down.

But I'm also really excited by it.

I think it's it's probably going to be easy now that we're all going to be sharing our experiences on the app and encouraging each other.

And so we've just started,

We've set ourselves a goal now,

We said,

Okay,

If we can get 3000 people in three days,

Can we get another 7000 people before the 31st of December?

Can we get 10,

000 people meditating every day of the year in 2017?

And so that's what we're doing.

All you need to do is download the app.

If you're already a member,

Just go into groups,

Type in 365 day challenge,

Press the join button for the group and you're in.

And,

And we're going to see if we can,

You know,

Because what a lot of people might not know is,

You know,

We have about 1.

3 million people who are members of Insight Timer,

About 115,

000 of them meditate every single day,

Right?

This is a huge number.

Statistically,

If you look at most apps,

You just never get 10% of your community that's on every day,

We have about another quarter of a million that meditate three or four times a week.

And then we have a much bigger number who meditate 10 times a month,

Right?

So what we're trying to do is we're trying to be,

You know,

The first group of people ever to meditate for 365 days.

And we're trying to get $10,

000 to do it together.

Well,

That's a huge amount of power.

So people haven't got the app,

They can download it for free for the iPhone and Android.

That's correct.

Just go to InsightTimer.

Com or just go to the app stores and type in Insight Timer.

You do need to register with Insight Timer because it is a community.

So we have to put in an email address and a password,

But there's no,

You know,

Credit cards and anything like that.

It's just set up an account and then join the group.

And you're part of the 2017 Insight Timer challenge.

Fantastic.

And where are we going to be at the end of 2017 as a result of doing that?

I think that's very exciting.

But actually,

What's great about the app is the transparency.

There's a map there.

You can see how many people are meditating and where as the earth rotates.

And it's quite amazing.

You see it sort of slewing from Asia over to Europe,

Over to America as the day goes by.

And also you can go into any of the meditation teachers' individual pages,

Which are live on the web.

And you see who's meditating right now,

Which is quite fascinating.

And I love that transparency.

Yes.

I mean,

Look,

There are many,

I guess,

Business owners,

If you like,

That might not share all of that information,

Because they might deem it commercially sensitive.

Certainly,

We don't disclose any private information about the users.

But for us,

You know,

This gets back to providing that free daily meditation practice for everyone.

And it's super interesting,

You know,

To go to InsightTimer.

Com forward slash Tom Evans,

And there's all your guiders and there are everyone who's listening to it now.

And there's your how many reviews have you had now?

Must be 10,

000 reviews.

Oh,

I've lost count.

Yeah.

And we put it all up on the web.

And we say,

You know,

Come and inspect us.

You know,

It's a very open and transparent pursuit here.

And come join us.

Yeah,

But also you've allowed us as teachers to interact as well.

So we can,

If someone gives you a nice review,

You can comment on it.

If someone gives you a not so nice review,

You can say,

Why not?

Someone said to me,

Oh,

It's not a meditation,

It's a podcast.

I said,

Well,

It does say podcast at the start of it.

So there was a clue in the title,

But I understand that,

You know,

And I guess you've got ideas about how content is going to be segregated in the future to make it a bit clearer.

What's the meditation?

What's the course and what's the podcast?

We do.

And in fact,

There haven't been many major upgrades to the app for quite a few months now.

We are releasing,

You heard it here first,

Tom,

A whole new stats interface in the next couple of weeks that we've been working on,

Because the current stats are quite old and quite dated.

So you'll be able to look at your activity based on daily,

Weekly and monthly,

As well as an all time view of your progress since you're the beginning of your practice.

But the primary piece of work that the team has been developing over the last six months is a new publishing platform and a new guided meditation platform.

So that you will be able to explore guided meditations on the app by many more criteria than is currently possible.

So at the moment,

If I go to Tom Evans is guided meditation,

I can see that Tom's got a few more guided meditations on the app.

But soon you'll be able to search by benefits,

Activity and type.

So what that means is you might be interested in Vipassana yoga,

You might be interested in Buddhism,

You might have a sleeping disorder,

You might be interested in,

You know,

ADHD or self compassion or a whole bunch of other things.

And we're about to really open up our guided meditation library so that it's much easier to search and discover based on your interests.

I think we've currently got about three and a half thousand,

Four thousand guided meditations.

And it's a very clunky experience at the moment to actually not find specific things.

You know,

If I know I'm interested in Tom Evans,

I can find you.

But if I'm actually curious about exploring Buddhism or Judaism or,

You know,

Some of the 20 different origins that we have on the platform,

That's very hard.

And so I'm super excited about the first three months of next year,

Because you really won't know our product when we when we put the next upgrade out,

It's gonna it's gonna change the world of meditating.

Wow,

That's very exciting.

Now,

Do you find that do you have a sort of a better idea for the product?

He's got this idea of getting the whole world meditating.

Do you have an idea of what the world might be like when the whole world chills out a bit more and a dream for creating a better world?

Well,

I such a big question,

Tom.

I only like asking good questions.

No,

No,

No.

I mean,

Of course,

We think about this a lot.

I guess the best way I could put this is we kind of feel that as a race,

We spend a lot of time building networks to sustain us,

Right?

We build social networks and environmental networks and political networks and military networks,

Religious networks,

If I can throw that one in as well.

And they kind of don't really work.

And the reason why they don't work is because when you throw the human race into any mix,

You know,

You deal with the goods or at least the positive and the negative effects of of human beings,

Right?

You know,

We're all inherently loving entities at the start of our lives.

And,

You know,

Some of us get a bit bruised as we as we grow older.

Life throws challenges at us.

And so what happens is we build all of these networks to sustain us.

You know,

The police force exists,

For example,

Not to protect us from 95% of people that exist to protect us from,

You know,

From,

Say,

5% of people who don't abide by the law.

It's a very expensive apparatus,

If you like.

But the reason we think at least Nick and I think the reason why we invest in these huge networks,

These artificial networks is because we've forgotten actually the most important network of all,

Which is the neural network.

And I don't mean what Silicon Valley has done to that term as in terms of artificial intelligence,

But the brain actually,

We know so little about and and but we do know from anecdotal evidence and now a lot of science is coming to the table that people who meditate regularly can rewire,

You know,

Old patterns.

And we believe that if you get everyone to meditate,

And we focus,

We go back to the neural network,

A lot of the problems that exist no longer exist.

You know,

I don't know of any genuinely curious meditators that would dig an oil pipe across the states,

You know,

I don't know many genuine meditators that would push a red button and send a nuke across the other side of the world,

Right?

I don't know any genuine meditators that would take a life in the name of religion,

You know,

It's and I'm sort of giving you very,

Very extreme answers here to prove a point,

Perhaps that's unfair.

But I hope the point is well made,

Right,

Which is if if everyone were to meditate,

Then it would be a kind of planet,

You know,

And it sounds quite simplistic,

I guess,

Saying hell,

It's actually what we hope for.

We've got kids,

I look at some of the influences of non meditators,

Media barons and people of political persuasion,

Who define in a large way,

The culture that my children will grow up in.

And I don't agree with them.

You know,

I don't have the platforms that they have.

And so I guess this is our way of sort of taking a peaceful position,

Which is look,

You have to be able to meditate,

And maybe some of some of the less palatable parts of society might subside.

Well,

I think is they don't have the platform that you have.

Look,

I always talk about the silent power of the insight timer community.

And I mean it genuinely,

You know,

I,

I truly believe it's indestructible,

Actually.

And they can't say that about many things.

I think things can be destroyed one way or another.

I don't think you can destroy the mindset of the insight timer community.

I think it is perpetual and resolute and committed.

And you know,

It's a great source of inspiration.

I guess it's bigger than your good selves,

The people who created it,

It's bigger than any one meditation teacher that's on there.

And it's bigger than any meditator that's on there.

Yes.

I mean,

This is the whole you know,

This is what's great about the internet is the great leveler,

Isn't it?

You know,

We're all we're all just keyboard warriors at the end of the day.

And that's what I love about insight timer,

You know,

I mean,

I get emails from people from all over the emails,

Messages on the app from I got one from a guy called Gil last night,

He comes from Prince Edward Island in Canada.

I get them from people who live in,

You know,

The far reaches of northern India,

I literally get them from all over the world.

And they all say,

Essentially the same thing,

Which is insight timer.

I don't want to sound dramatic here,

Actually.

But there's a common thread,

Which is,

You know,

Insight timer has in some way had a very meaningful impact on their lives.

And it's,

You know,

It's great to be part of that.

And we didn't create it.

I just want to I just want to correct that insight timer was created by someone else,

Brad,

About seven years ago,

And we've turned it into something very different to what it was.

But I just like to preserve the integrity of the story.

You know,

We've taken it on and we've changed it dramatically.

But someone else started it.

Well,

You're fantastic custodians.

And that in carriers,

It's been a delight to be talking with you in this interview.

So people want to get hold of the app,

Just remind them again,

Where the they can find it.

Yeah,

Just go to insight timer.

Com or just go to the App Store and type in insight timer and download it,

Sign up and you're you're an instant part of our community.

So can we make this podcast interview an annual thing?

So I can speak to you in 365 days time to see how your challenges go on.

Well,

I tell you what,

Why don't we do it more frequently if you'd like I commit to chatting to you in at the end of next year about it.

But it might be an interesting platform for me,

Tom,

As we introduce new features or you know,

New ideas to come on and chat with you about why we're doing what we're doing.

And you could be the you could be the channel through which we communicate orally to our users.

How about that?

Let's do that.

Let's I love that.

And also,

I love the idea.

I'm also a great person for beta testing.

I've come from a software background,

As you know,

And I've got tons and tons of material for some of the new features that are coming out in in 2017.

So use me,

I will,

I will make things break and also make them better again.

So I'm good at finding that I find the things that maybe software engineers haven't discovered.

But I've got some great material and also I'll share with you privately.

I had a great approach for somebody as a result of insight time was asking to do some brand new meditations,

Which I'm on I'm launching next year as well.

Wonderful.

Insight time will be the first destinations for those as well.

So it's been a job well so pleased that you found me.

Big,

Big thanks for Maddie for reaching out and the community also for for listening in.

It makes my makes my day to know that some of this stuff that I've downloaded for free is out there for free making a difference in it.

It's been a pleasure.

So thanks for being part of our community.

So thanks for listening to the zone show.

And as Christopher says,

You can find my meditations and podcasts around the theme of mindfulness at www insight timer.

Com slash Tom Evans.

And also you find loads of books and resources on how to get in and stay in the zone on my website,

Www Tom Evans dot com.

Reviews

I know this an old session but somehow was drawn to it. I follow Tom Evans and love is soft easy approach to his tracks and lessons. I am a daily user of IT and it is truly a cornerstone of my morning ritual and now afternoon meditation. Thank you.

I was further drawn to use this platform from some of the dialogue and authentic conversation between Tom and Christopher. I have met and made friends with a few of the teachers on the app and feel the bond and sense of community they create.

I will be sure to listen to Christopher speak of the next Ten Years. ✌️❤️🙏

Thank you for Bringing this to the collective.
Amen

Thank you for sharing this podcast. Very interesting information ! Much love and gratitude!

Great to hear this background Tom. Thanks for being a pioneer in the community 🙏💫🌀

Really interesting origin story. Love that the best meditation app by orders of magnitude (imho) comes to us from a couple of Aussie brothers. 🤩 Thank you💚 🙏

Lovely to know what you two have been up to whenever it happened. Thanks for sharing!

Would love to hear an update. Thank you, great interview💚

Thank you for sharing. It was meaningful to hear about the birth and transformation and look forward to the continued metamorphosis.

I've been a teacher on this amazing platform for a whole month now and am building a lovely community already. I feel the love and the gentleness of our meditators. 2017 to 2022, I'm off to find more interviews. Thanks from Queensland Australia 💜🌻

I have been curious as to the transformation of Insight Timer. Thank you for this pod cast. And much Gratitude for this APP!! It has changed my life. I use it every day! What a comfort to connect with so many around the world. 🙏🏼❤️

Thank you both, For sharing this conversation.
Orly
Israel

Really nice to hear the background of this wonderful app I call home and family 💫

Great interview, and nice to know the story and the man behind this wonderful community. Although I have been meditating since 1973, in the last few years insight timer has made a tremendous contribution to my life by giving me community of like-minded people to connect with, learn from and grow with. This app and community are a tremendous contribution. Thank you!

A great podcast episode! gave inspiration and food for thoughts!

Thank you, I really enoted learning more about the origins of this amazing platform🙏🤓🙏

Thank you, it was really interesting to hear the background of the app.... as for Insight Timer, i am truely grateful, and i am another that it has had a profound positive effect on traversing through a challenging part of my life.
🙏

I loved to hear the origin of insight timer, very fascinating. Great job and all my gratitude for this app.

Love this I have cerebral palsy and been using insight time almost 80 days and it has helped the cerebral palsy to relax

Gentlemen talking mindfulness & meditation in a raw environment of truth speaking from a truly genuine space thank you so much for sharing this interview.
I am on a journey of meditating & committing to everyday to create a variation of changes in my mindset. I have joined individuals & taken classes but I have just discovered my pot of gold on my rainbow Insight Timer. A creation that is not directing me in anyway but depending on mood situation influence thought or sense of being or just to sleep & quiet my mind it is all here!!
A community of such integration & support Rocko & Christopher with the help of many friends & supporters you are touching hearts all over the world & positively assisting unbiasly the mindset of many to be more mindful.
Thank you blessings to you & this treasured community of strength & wisdom.....