Interview with Andy Hobson

Two Insight Timer guides in conversation about the hows, whys and wherefores of mindfulness meditation.

Transcript

So,

Hi,

I'm Tom Evans and if you're a regular listener to the Zone Show podcast,

You may have noticed that the opening music was slightly different than usual.

And the reason for that is my guest today is Andy Hobson,

Who is someone that I've known about for about a year.

We haven't really spoken one to one for as long as we've known each other.

We're both meditation guides on the wonderful app Insight Timer and I've been wanting to speak to this man for about a year or so.

So welcome Andy.

Thanks for having me on the show.

Yeah,

And thanks for loaning the opening sting music.

I may even close with one of your bits of ambient music as well.

So before we talk about what you're doing now,

I'm curious because you started life out as a drummer,

Didn't you,

In a rock band.

Was it a rock band?

I did indeed,

Yes.

Yeah,

Let's go back there.

Yes,

My chosen kind of career path was music and playing drums.

So I did some session work and I was very lucky to get in a kind of sign band where we played for a few years and got to tour the world and do all kinds of lovely things.

But the music industry is a tricky one.

So that didn't last forever.

So I turned my skills to other areas.

And why mindfulness?

Why did you get dragged into the world of mindfulness?

Well,

I discovered meditation in my early 20s.

And I think that was a friend of mine just gave me a book on meditation and I was really interested in it.

And I kind of went in and out of being interested in trying a daily practice.

And then I became interested in Buddhist philosophy and just general philosophy really.

And actually,

It was only when I was in the band and I'd kind of got my dream,

Which was to be in a big band and play and tour the world.

And I kind of had this kind of feeling that something was missing and I didn't have,

You know,

Something was there's a bit of a gap.

And I thought this isn't right.

I've got everything I wanted.

And,

You know,

I'm in my mid 20s.

So I kind of turned back to Buddhism.

And funny enough,

I did a course,

I attached myself to a Buddhist center and did a course on a tour bus and they used to send me tapes.

And I listened to these tapes and learn.

And I found it fascinating and it kind of really complemented that world of rock and roll and mindfulness.

So yeah.

And then formally,

I really only discovered mindfulness in terms of the mindfulness we know.

And that's the mindfulness based stress reduction and mindfulness based qualitative therapy.

But I did a mindfulness course myself because I kind of I really found meditation useful,

But I didn't really have a structured way of doing it.

And I didn't really know exactly what I was doing or where to go.

So I did the course and I absolutely loved it.

And I thought this is perfect for everyday people,

People that,

You know,

Work and maybe don't have a,

You know,

A real interest in meditation,

But something really practical and decided I'd like to teach it.

And do you mind me asking if you've been able to make a living out of it?

No,

Not at the moment.

I do it for the love.

And I really enjoy recording meditations and writing the music for it.

But I also have a job and I work in a primary school running a therapy service,

Which I also love as well.

But yeah,

Both seem to kind of work with each other quite well.

And can you use any of the mindfulness and meditation techniques in the therapy environment?

I do.

Yes,

I do.

I've done some training teaching mindfulness in schools,

Which is I'll plug the mindfulness in schools project,

Which is brilliant.

And they've got a course called Paws B.

So I did their course and I teach a version of that in the school I work in,

Which is great.

And how do kids take to it?

It takes a little while sometimes.

You have to start off small and sometimes you introduce it with,

I mean,

The eating meditation works a treat,

Especially if chocolate is involved.

And yeah,

Depending on,

You know,

It's very different for each child.

Some can kind of sit for a while,

Others find it very difficult.

So I always incorporate lots of movement.

And there's so many great books on working with,

You know,

Younger ages,

Even five year olds doing things like pretending to be seaweed in a stormy sea and then gradually letting it calm down and kind of slowing down and things like that.

So I have seen some really,

Really positive effects from it with children and they kind of learn different ways to kind of regulate themselves.

But I've listened to quite a few of your meditations on Insight Timer.

I love the mountain meditation,

The lake meditations and those sort of things.

And they're wonderfully evocative and they're kind of storytelling in a way.

You consider doing storytelling for kids in,

But not calling it meditation or mindfulness and just do the visualization and storytelling with them.

Yeah,

I've done the mountain meditation with children and we've tried the lake as well.

And I think it works really well because children kind of their language is almost stories and images.

And we do a lot,

I do a lot of work with kind of painting and things so they can create stories and we do that as well.

So it's really,

It's a lovely way to tap into kind of a child's imagination and it helps them access that side of them and it's kind of the unconscious as well.

And how does the establishment take to it?

Do they,

Is it sort of tick in the box like corporate social responsibility for businesses or do they see the benefit in creating nicer children,

Calmer children,

More intelligent children and more creative children?

I think in the last couple of years I think meditation in schools is really growing and it's being,

There's an awareness of it now in all schools because when I first introduced it it was a new thing.

My school,

They're really keen on it,

They love to kind of try new things as well and they're very supportive of bringing meditation to children.

But I think there is always a risk of it turning into a curriculum as such.

And that's something that I think will be kind of explored and developed as it's kind of brought into schools because I think with anything in education now there is a degree of looking at outcomes and evaluating it and is it working.

So yeah,

I'm curious to see how that goes.

And my sort of take on meditation,

Because I got into my mid-forties,

A good 20 years after you started it,

And I was this sort of stressed out executive type character and someone just said you look really haggard,

You should meditate.

And what I did I found out that I actually became more creative and more productive.

So what I've been doing for the last 10 or 15 years is to create resources where it actually actively teaches you to be brighter,

More brilliant and sharper and also change the speed of time so you get more things done with less of it.

Do you think there's an application for that in the education process?

Definitely,

Yeah,

Definitely.

I think,

Well,

If children feel safe and calm and kind of able to self-regulate,

They're more likely to be able to learn and be creative and apply themselves.

If a child comes in and they're anxious about exams or they're nervous or they don't have to calm themselves down,

Then it's likely they're going to sit in the classroom and not taking anything that's being taught.

So with adults and with children,

I think it's the same effect.

And can I ask you then as an artist,

As a musician,

How do you get in,

And this being the Zone Show as well,

How do you get into your zone where you create your wonderful meditations and your ambient music?

Do you have a process you go through or is it kind of natural these days?

From different angles really.

I sometimes I'll come up with a little idea and it's all based on stuff I've maybe struggled with or something I thought,

Do you know what,

I think I'd really,

You know,

I'm kind of creating meditations for myself in a way,

Things that I think,

Do you know what,

I think needs something that would really support this or kind of tap into that.

And I'll normally record kind of some vocals first,

The guidance.

Sometimes I write a script and sometimes I just talk and see what happens.

And then I kind of write some music that I think would fit with what I'm saying a little bit.

But it kind of always changes as it goes on.

But yeah,

That's the process really.

Well,

Fantastic.

Well,

We work a very similar way then.

I tend to work on someone comes with a problem and says to me,

You know,

You've got a meditation that does X,

Y and Z.

I had a guy in the village who was flying to Brazil every week and coming back and he's flying out on Sunday and coming back on Thursday and then being asleep for Friday and Saturday and Sunday,

Not seeing his family effectively.

And so I recorded a jet lag meditation with him that worked a treat.

So that's interesting.

And I must ask you this actually,

Because a lot of people ask me about how I go about my meditations and where I get the background music from.

And I've got a little mini keyboard,

But I haven't got as far as layering my own sounds just yet.

It's one of my list of things to do.

And I'd love to explore with you whether that's something we could work together on in some sort of way.

But also I do buy other people's background music in Royalty Free License.

Have you considered that as a model?

Because I know loads of other people that might be interested in just in your pure backgrounds.

It's something I've thought about actually.

The music is such a personal thing as well and it always fits with that meditation.

But yeah,

I mean,

The difficult bit is the music takes such a long time and I think to create enough music to fit with,

Say if someone wanted something,

It would take a while to kind of find that music.

But yes,

I think I'm always interested in working with other people and creating sounds and it gives me another excuse to go and start creating some new music.

How do you find people find you?

What sort of feedback do you get from your meditations?

I get on the Insight Timer,

Which is where I kind of first uploaded a couple of meditations that I'd recorded for the mindfulness courses I taught.

Originally I thought it was a bit risky putting music on because it's quite a personal thing and I've always found a lot of meditation music is generally a little bit intrusive or it's kind of,

For want of a better way of saying it,

It's kind of quite cheaply produced and kind of your kind of quite kind of simple soundscapes and just a little bit,

I don't know,

Over the top.

But people give me lovely feedback and it's amazing because I get some really lovely emails from people as well to say how they've,

You know,

Something's helped with pain or stress or depression or an event's happened in their life and really,

You know,

Really serious life things happening and,

You know,

People are compelled to email me about it.

It's really lovely and I also get lots of nice feedback on Insight Timer as well and it makes such a difference to know that,

You know,

You're helping people and,

You know,

Almost while you're asleep because there's an audience over in America that are kind of listening while you're asleep.

It's quite a strange concept.

And I love that,

Isn't it,

Where someone says,

Did you record this meditation to fix this out on the other and you didn't but it seems to be universally applicable in many elements.

What was the inspiration behind then the Everyday Meditation album?

That was really something that anyone can tap into.

So I kind of,

I'm really keen to make meditation for anyone and,

You know,

People that would never thought of trying meditation to try out.

So I made an album of kind of quite short meditations because some of my previous ones are very long,

Like kind of 40 minutes and that's a long time to sit,

You know,

Not everyone has that much time.

So I kind of formulated it around a working week.

So,

You know,

It starts off with a morning meditation and then walking.

So I imagined walking to work and then commuting,

You know,

Which is,

I live in London and commuting on a train is never that much fun.

And then the lunchtime check-in.

So really just building meditation into your daily life but in a kind of like easy bite size way.

And then I did some for the weekend and I've got a Sunday blues one because I know that that's quite a big one,

Like Sunday evening.

And then I added another one which just a kind of visualization which is the night sky meditation which is probably my favourite one on the album and I spent the longest time on it.

And yeah,

That's the idea really.

So just making it accessible and for anyone,

You know,

Just to pick up and give meditation a try without necessarily having to read a book.

So should we have a listen to a short sample of the peacewalking meditation?

Go on then.

Feeling the whole movement of your body now as your body carves a shape into space.

Constantly leaving and arriving at the same time,

Moment by moment.

Feeling your body swinging in rhythm with your walking.

And relaxing your body as you do this.

Loosing your shoulders a bit more.

And also noticing the sensations in your hands as they move through the air.

So what struck me about this,

And I saw some of the dialogue in the Insight Timer group as you were producing it.

You didn't just throw this thing together at home.

You used really professional techniques mastering the album,

Haven't you?

I did,

Yes.

I really wanted to make a really high quality recording.

Something that really kind of stands out.

I think music kind of needs to be well recorded.

I mean it's such a powerful way to kind of tap into people,

You know.

And so I used,

Yeah I've got a program on my computer and then I use keyboards and I've got guitars and all sorts of other things.

And I've got a friend with a studio.

I kind of do a bit of work in there as well.

And then I got some to master as well.

And I rate really highly.

And yeah,

So it's kind of,

I guess it improves how you record and how you write the music when you know that you're doing it to the kind of highest level.

And that can also be frustrating as well because most of the meditations have kind of 20 plus tracks of music.

So each kind of drone is another drone under another drone.

And to really layer it up,

It's the most difficult thing I think to make a three and a half minute song is obviously a challenge as well.

But when you've got to kind of make 40 minutes of music and make it change enough but not be intrusive,

That's really the challenge.

And that's how I try and strike that balance without putting too much in there and not making it completely kind of one level.

And is there a challenge then that you want to be creating this stuff in the meditative state where you're all floating and dreaming but that you've got to get this left brain detail side of your consciousness working at the same time?

How do you do that?

Is there a technique for that?

In terms of just kind of getting in the zone,

Is that what you kind of mean?

Yeah,

Because I find that when I'm doing my meditations,

I go into such a state I can't remember anything I've done in them.

So when I'm recording something,

Someone says,

Oh,

I love that word,

That sentence you said halfway through,

And I've got no conscious memory that I actually even put it in there.

Ah,

Right,

Yeah.

Yeah,

Sometimes I mean,

I sometimes put a little map of where I want it to go.

So kind of like you said about the stories really,

I kind of have a story in mind and what I want to kind of cover.

And then I fill in the blanks in between.

So when I'm speaking,

I guess I am in a bit of a zone in the same way as when I'm making music.

It's kind of sound and it's,

Yeah,

I guess in the same way that music can kind of tap into your unconscious and kind of go a bit deeper into your psyche and kind of express that side really.

There's a lot of people into these sort of binaural,

Beaty type things.

Do you use any of that kind of technology at all?

No,

I'm not quite there yet.

Which frequency I'm supposed to be using,

But if I find that magical frequency,

I will definitely use it and put it on everything.

But no,

I quite like,

I've listed a few of those.

I think they're really lovely because I think there's two sides.

I mean,

There's the people that really just want to listen to a voice and then there's people that like the music.

And I really,

I feel quite strongly that actually the music can take you into a different place than just voice.

And obviously there's a lot to be said for silent meditation and obviously in the British tradition it's a lot of spoken word and it's kind of you and your thoughts.

But I think music can kind of take you somewhere else,

A bit otherworldly and it kind of lifts your spirit and opens your heart in a different way.

And yeah,

It kind of taps into that kind of unknown aspect of ourselves that is more felt rather than cognitive.

So I think really importantly in meditation,

The bit we struggle with is our thoughts and thinking and I think music can really give you that felt sense and that extra dimension to meditation that actually taps into emotions and our unconscious.

And what would you,

And we're obviously fairly old hands at all of this stuff,

What do you recommend to somebody who's just starting out?

Because there is this,

You know,

Do you do silent meditations?

Do you use a breath?

Do you use music?

Do you use their voice?

Would you recommend that people kind of use a mix of them or is there a certain way to ease into a certain procedure you can go through to get the best out of your meditation time?

Yeah,

That's a good question.

I think starting out,

I think it's good to get,

Buy a CD from someone,

Maybe mine.

Yeah,

We'll start with your one.

No,

I mean,

Just sitting for one minute,

Focusing on your breathing and just being curious.

I mean,

The most important part I find in meditation is being curious and playful and not taking it too seriously in terms of,

You know,

I need to sit and be very serious and focus on my,

On my breath and if I go off into my thoughts,

I've completely failed.

I think really just being playful with it and just maybe even just noticing your body rising and falling and that's just the beginnings of,

Of being aware of something and being aware also of that it's hard to stay on that one thing.

Now the Zone Show,

Andy,

I haven't briefed you on this at all so I'm going to put you on the spot right now.

Okay,

We don't just talk about stuff,

We like doing it.

So off the top of your head,

Could you take the listeners through just,

I don't know,

A 30 second one minute procedure that they could do just to get into that lovely space,

That lovely meditative space?

And I just want everybody,

One,

If you're okay to do this,

Is that if you are driving,

Just pull over right now because this might send you off.

Would you be okay to do that,

Andy?

Of course,

Yeah,

I don't want to feel responsible for any crashes.

Fantastic.

Okay,

So I'll begin.

So first of all with the meditation,

Just,

Just start by noticing your body and just checking in and just scanning through your body and notice any tension at all,

Starting from your feet all the way up,

Your legs up to your stomach and that's where we can store a bit of tension and anxiety sometimes.

And just moving all the way up to your head and then take a deep breath in and imagine breathing all the way down your body,

All the way down into your feet,

Breathing back out and releasing all that tension and maybe anxiety,

Breathing it out and then breathing in again and again imagining breathing all the way down your body,

All the way down into your feet and breathing out again and just letting your body sink into the seat you're sitting on.

And then loosen your shoulders,

Take another deep breath in,

Breathe out,

Really let your body sink right into the chair and let go of everything,

Any thoughts about the past and the future.

Then just continue to sit and just noticing your body rising and falling as you breathe.

And then just gently bringing your senses back out into the outer world,

Just noticing the light in the room,

Checking in with your body,

Noticing how it feels now and maybe just take one more deep breath in and breathe out and now you're ready to do whatever you're doing next.

Fantastic,

Thank you.

And you reminded me then of something my old guitar teacher used to say to me,

He said,

Is Tom,

It's not the notes but the gaps in between the notes and how many broadcasts and podcasts have got silence in them?

Nobody does it,

Do they?

There is,

It's very difficult actually and we always want to fill it,

Even just then I kind of felt that urge to think,

Oh,

That's gone on too long,

We don't like silence,

I need to speak again but it's really important silence.

Seek out silence as meditation,

Just do that.

Yeah,

I was talking to someone just this morning about this as well,

I'm talking about the reprogramming the brain and I said,

Well actually what people forget about when they talk about rewiring neural pathways is that the brain is as much a receiver of thought as it is a generator of thought and when you let your mind go quiet,

That's when you get these brilliant ideas,

The idea for the next album or the next track or the thing that you're writing and this silence is really important that people just forget that when we,

Because our brain just fires up in the morning,

Doesn't it?

We wake up and it starts thinking and then it stops thinking when we go to sleep.

We don't think about why it's thinking and who's talking to whom and who's doing the listening and when we do that then it's amazing what creativity comes forth.

Yeah,

Absolutely,

Yeah.

It's very powerful as well but we don't often get that time to really stop and it's really important to try and build that into your day if you can.

Yeah,

I don't know if you found this as well and my resistance to meditation in my mid-40s was I was a really busy guy and there's no way I had 10 minutes to waste and also there's no way I could make my overactive mind go quiet but when I persisted with it and got into the groove with it all I just found I got that time back and the days I didn't take 10 minutes out went so badly wrong that I needed the 10 minutes to make sure the day went well.

Do you find that too?

Yeah,

Definitely,

Definitely.

When I really kind of got a proper practice going on a daily basis then you start to see that actually you do get some time back and you actually find,

I think,

New possibilities open up in terms of you find what's really important in that day and you spend less time procrastinating or maybe watching television or just doing things you don't need to do and you kind of find what's really important and you enjoy it more,

I guess.

You find a bit more depth in what you're doing.

Fantastic.

Well,

Listen,

It's been a real joy and a pleasure to speak at Last Andy.

Where can people,

We should tell you that,

I'll put the link down at the bottom of the podcast but we're both on Insight Timer and they've got a new feature on the website now where we've got our own public pages,

Haven't we,

So you can see who's listening and live and what the meditations are.

So yourinsighttimer.

Com slash Andy Hobson which is.

.

.

Andy Hobson,

Yeah,

I'm glad you found that out because I can't remember all my new pages.

And we don't know how you spell that,

No,

It's A-N-D-Y-H-O-B-S-O-N and I'm insighttimer.

Com slash Tom Evans.

And where will people find your website?

I know you've got a mindfulness course as well,

Haven't you?

I do,

Yeah,

I've got an online course I haven't even mentioned.

But yeah,

So my website's www.

Mindfulnessforall which is alloneword.

Com and on there is my online shop so you can get my albums.

And also I've got an online mindfulness course which covers all the key concepts of mindfulness-based cognitive therapy and mindfulness-based stress reduction and you can just do it in your own time and it's really good.

I know and who would that be for?

What sort of person would benefit from that?

That's for anyone,

Someone starting out who's a bit curious about mindfulness and wants to kind of understand what it's all about and actually start a practice of their own so you get all the meditations that you need to begin your own practice.

But also someone who maybe has lapsed a bit or has kind of stopped meditating and they want to refresh or revisit it again.

Fantastic.

And is that meditation for all,

Is that the number four or the word,

F-O-R?

Oh,

It's the word.

Fantastic.

Well Andy,

It's been a real joy and a pleasure to speak to you and I recommend everyone tunes into your meditations and inside time and get a hold of the album.

You're one of the people that I listen to.

So I couldn't recommend you more highly than that.

Oh thanks,

Tom.

I like Be Calm for a Little Longer as well.

It's an excellent meditation.

That's cute.

And maybe we need to play some music together sometime.

I'm thinking that I would love to be your guinea pig and I'd love to put some of my words onto your music and I love that whole idea of one on one making three.

Yes.

You know,

So my words with your music and your music with my words would be something that neither of us ever thought of in the first place.

But I do actually,

Occasionally I do listen to your structures and I know where you're going.

I can understand why the music is rising and falling and this sort of stuff.

And so I'd love to do something with you and prove to you that there's another revenue model for your wonderful work as well.

How about that?

Lovely.

Yeah.

Let's give it a go.

Let's do an experiment and see what happens.

Fantastic.

All right.

Whatever happens,

I'll rebroadcast that under this podcast so people can listen to what they want.

Oh,

No pressure.

A real joy and a pleasure.

Take care and keep spreading your wonderful words.

Thanks a lot,

Tom.

So I'm Tom Evans and you've been listening to The Zone Show.

And as promised,

We're just playing out to Just Got Home from Andy Hobson.

And some great news for you.

My new book,

The Authority Guide to Practical Mindfulness,

Which contains 10 guided meditations,

Is now available as an audiobook and in print and for e-readers.

So come to my website,

Www.

Tomevans.

Co,

For loads of books and resources on how to get in and stay in the zone.

Reviews

Andy is a gift to the planet. It was a pleasure to hear him

Loved this conversation eternally you both! Looking forward to a collaboration!

I really enjoyed this beautifully conducted interview. How interesting to learn a little about Andy Hobson's 'journey' into meditation. I look forward to a possible future collaboration between Tom Evans' words and Andy's music!

Lovely. Following you both and look forward to hearing a collaboration in the future. Grateful to you both.

Thank you Tom and Andy. You are two of my favourites on Insight Timer. Bless you both.
🙏

Wonderful interview Tom & Andy. Andy’s meditations were among the first I found on IT 4 years ago.
Thank you both for all the hard work you put into our meditations.
🙏🏾🦋🙏🏽💐🌷🐾🌺🌹🌸🌿🕊✨💫

Awesome interview ! You both are on my fave list since long ago. Thank you for your passion on spreading these practices.xo

I really enjoy these interviews. Always something to learn AND they are gentle and pleasant as well as informative. Thank you.

Love. Big fan of Andy’s too. Will share this as it’s aimed for children too. Children are far more stressed in today’s world sadly. Anyway lots of insight gained. Thank you 🙏🏼

Interesting talk and thank you both for your meditations

So interesting to learn background of the people you listen to and enjoy.

love Andy's commitment to music!!

Lovely conversation, thank you Andy and Tom x

such a lovely snapshot. I appreciate hearing the unique backgrounds of the publishers - what inspires them, the gifts they choose to share with us.

I enjoyed this & it has made me want to listen to Andy's teachings. Thank you

A wonderful opportunity to get to know both Andy and Tom, and to learn more about their unique creative processes.

Really good information! Thank you for bringing this to us. I had always liked Andy's meditations. I didn't realize about the mindfulness course. Thank you.

Awesome; a true inside look at the thought processes behind producing high quality content for this wonderful app. Cheers, guys. 👍
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Lovely candid interview!!!