Interview With Ben Gioia

Ben Gioia (“joya”) is a two-time best-selling author, speaker, and creator of the Influence With A Heart® Method. If you have a BIG IDEA, Ben will teach you how to write your #1 best-selling book — in 5 weeks — and position yourself for a media explosion (and more) in 3 months.

Ben helped a Fortune 100 company shift culture, trained leaders at Stanford, launched the world's biggest magazine, and created video game with MIT to transform employee resilience and customer experience.

Transcript

So much of the charge, I mean we're talking in like the high 90 percentile of all of the things that I used to worry about my life like just went away and it's not that the things went away but the worries went away. Like I know from my own experience like my own internal like I know my anxiety feelings right like I know where they are somatically I know what's up with them. Tell me about it. How much I don't like them. Yeah, Yes. Like all of that kind of stuff. Like since my Bante experience I have had like less than five of those that quality of emotion I mean literally less than five and each of those episodes each of those you know spans of experience like less than two minutes. Like it's stunning like the whole like everything is fine right and it's not a Pollyanna everything is fine it doesn't mean that like I still don't you know suffer and get angry and be judgmental and you know bump my toe and do all those things but it's just like it's like you know there's this been this switch that has happened. Hey there everybody welcome to episode 28 of Contemplate This. I'm your host Tom Bushlach and my guest this time is Ben Gioia. The foundation of Ben's work in his own words is mindful of his mindfulness and loving kindness and bringing that into the business space openly and publicly. In our interview Ben talks publicly for the first time about an experience he had with his meditation teacher that allowed him to let go of all the doubt and that inner critical voice that was holding him back and that so many of us also struggle with. I'm very inspired by the way Ben integrates his contemplative practice into his professional life as a coach a speaker and an author. So you can find that link as well as other information about Ben Gioia and his programs on the show notes page at thomasjbushlach. Com forward slash episode 28 that's episode 28 with no spaces. Also in Ben's work if you're struggling to write your big idea into a best-selling book and want to get going and kick-started in just five weeks you'll definitely want to check out Ben's program also listed in the show notes page. Okay with that introduction let's get right into my interview with Ben Gioia. You Hey everybody. Welcome to episode 28. My guest this time is Ben Gioia and I'm your host Tom Bushlach. So Ben Gioia is a two-time best-selling author, A speaker and creator of the influence with a heart method. So if you've got a big idea Ben will can teach you how to write your number one best-selling book in five weeks and position yourself for a media explosion and more in just three months. He also helped a fortune 100 company shift its culture partially using some mindfulness techniques and has trained leaders at Stanford, Launched the world's biggest magazine and created a video game with MIT to transform employee resilience and customer experience. So Ben thanks for being here on the show it's great to have you. It's great to be here Tom thank you so much for the invitation. Yeah so is there anything you'd like to add to that intro or bio to introduce listeners to who you are? Gosh you know it's interesting because in my recent life I really really got clear on my business around my focus on messaging and positioning and helping people with their books and you know the foundation of everything that I'm doing is mindfulness and loving kindness like no doubt about it. So I just you know really want to really want to call that out not only to contextualize myself but really to talk about the importance as you know Tom of bringing the wisdom traditions and these universal you know human principles into the business space. So I'm guessing that maybe the more intentional integration of those two things is more recent is that correct? Well you know they've been there forever but I think it's more of the public integration. You know like I've been teaching this stuff for like 15 years you know I one of the my first forays into you know a mindfulness product was I created a mindfulness program in conjunction with an ALS patient patient so Lou Gehrig's disease we made a mindfulness and we made a mindfulness program for patients and caregivers that was distributed nationwide through the ALS Association and I actually got an award for that. Oh cool. Yeah and back then you know I think I was very much you know heating the words of you know the Buddha and many teachers of like you know you don't really want to shout it out right like you're doing the practice right there's no need to be like hey I'm doing the practice check me out right so I really kept it on the down low even though I was weaving you know those processes principles you know perspectives you know all that heart into my stuff and then in the last several years I've really brought it forward a you know because we need it and B because people really resonate with it these days. Yeah absolutely it reminds me of the line from St. Francis that you maybe are familiar with where he says preach the gospel always and when necessary use words. I love that oh my god yeah because that like harkens back to my coach always talks about element zero like I think Gandhi talked about that like how you kind of make yourself nothing not in a bad way but like you know the movement that you are bringing to the world and creating you know like it's not your movement right like you are the you know you are the thing standing out of the way to allow the thing to come through. You are the vessel or the channel not the message itself yeah yeah beautiful I like that yeah thank you so can you tell us a little bit about your own practice and how that that's come to inform some of the work that you do? Absolutely yeah so I'll do the I'll do it historically but I'll do it fast so my and you know I'm gonna I'm gonna be slightly controversial here for a minute Tom. Please that makes it more interesting. Okay good yeah so when I was I was raised Catholic you know 12 years of Catholic school and all sorts of church and stuff and then when I was like when I was about 19 I was like no way this is all just this doesn't make any sense to me so like 1926 really nothing 26 I'm in a club and I take MDMA otherwise known as ecstasy for the first time and I went oh you know there's so much more of spirit than I was acknowledging and you know a few more years and a few too many drugs found my way to India discovered Reiki practiced that for a couple years and then found my way into into Goenka style vipassana meditation so that's body body based meditation using you know breath and then ultimately sensations right did that for about 12 years and then found my way to an amazing teacher named Bhante Vimala Ramzi and he talks about and teaches tranquil wisdom insight meditation so using the feeling of loving kindness that's in your heart as the object of meditation so not you know verbally saying may you be happy and not you know visualizing but like the feeling the warm glowy feeling of the love using that as the object and that's what I've been that's what's it's been 11 months now okay so a little more recent than I realized yeah yeah yeah so yeah and just interesting how we you know the we walk the path and the path unfolds for us yeah for us can you unpack a little bit for listeners who might not be familiar with what the Goenka vipassana tradition sort of path and then we can get into the newer part of your practice yeah I'd be glad to um so I'm you know small disclaimer like I am not an expert so I'm gonna you know give my best understanding from my 12 years of experience well it's okay that that it's the experience that that I think is really what I want to get at in the show so yeah beautiful thank thank you yeah yes so so the idea of basically the standard Goenka practice is a 10-day retreat to get started which is kind of like a rocket ship beginning for most people you know into the meditation space because it's you know it's no joke and you spend about the first three days just focusing on the feeling of your breath like initially you know through your nostrils like the airflow and then you know it's basically like this this triangle that's like top of your nose you know including your upper lip if you imagine a triangle there so just feeling the breath and stuff and then over those three days you you constrain your awareness so by the end of the three days you're just becoming aware of the sensations that are on your upper lip so they can be you know naturally occurring sensations or it could be the flow of of the air right over your lip so it's not so much that you're focusing on the breath anymore but you're actually shifting into the focus of sensation okay right and then from there you will you scan the body scan your body methodically feel a sensation starting the top of the head feel a sensation okay move feel a sensation okay move and then after a while that movement just becomes a flow right so you're just starting at the top and flowing down to the bottom and this is over you know many days many hours many minutes many many many moments oh my god and and a deeply powerful practice and then you know kind of wrapped up at the end with some metta bhavana some loving kindness so basically taking the merits and sharing that with all beings so that i would say is the super nutshell of of the goenka practice wise yeah that was well said and very succinct yeah thank you i appreciate so then you had a shift with meeting this new teacher so can you talk about how your practice has shifted a little bit yeah so so it's very funny that we we we do very we some of our practices i don't know about you tom but for me you know like seemingly mundane activities in our practice like following the breath or following sensations you know create the space for you know infinite possibility basically right yeah so so a funny version of that infinite possibility was january of last year i'm looking on youtube for dhamma talks or dharma talks by goenka because i want to sit and i don't want to sit in silence i want to hear a talk from him and i come across this other teacher bhante vimla ramsey and i see ahead and i don't look at youtube like to look like i'm not a youtube like casual person right i'm not a youtube casual person and i um i see the video and i'm like that's kind of compelling and i start watching and i'm listening to his teaching and my first response is no way wow and then the next response is that can't be right and then a little further but i keep watching right and a little bit further i'm like oh my god i need to try this and what this what bhante teaches is like i was saying before using um using the heart using the feeling of loving kindness in the heart as the object of meditation right and so instead of using a body sensation or a breath or something like that you're using that warm glowy feeling and uh if you can't connect to that straight away you know you can put your hand on your heart for a moment and breathe into it you know you can picture holding a puppy or a kitten or a child you know smiling into that being's eyes you know whatever and you get that little glowy feeling and then just let it be right like uh in the way that a candle flickers and lets off light and heat like it's not efforting right it's just doing its thing that's the same analogy that bhante will use for the um you know the the the feeling of the loving kindness as the object um so that's the that's the setup how am i doing so far this is great yeah okay well and if it's interesting to me too because my my sort of home practice is in the centering prayer and meditation tradition and i don't know if you're familiar with that not in depth i know of but okay recap yeah that's appropriate sure yeah so i mean the initial teaching is is that you choose a sacred word as you're centering or a sacred word and the the word itself doesn't really matter it's more of a symbol that when you repeat that word you're offering your consent or your intention to say yes um and if you're in the theological space it's saying yes to the presence and action of god you're saying yes to whatever is arising in the moment whatever it is internal or external and that has been my practice for a little over two decades and i was on a retreat a couple of years ago and was talking with a woman by the name of bree stoner who works for the center for action and contemplation and she mentioned that she had been working with her sacred word feeling almost the same sound sort of resonate in the heart center almost kind of between the heart center and the solar plexus chakras there and so i kind of started allowing that to seep in a little bit to my own practice and have have since found that there's there's definitely a a space for lack of a better term where when i return to that sacred word that it resonates and vibrates in a particular way and has a feeling sometimes even color or emotion attached to it so it's interesting how the different traditions sort of settle into these similarities yeah yeah it really is and that sounds like such a beautiful experience that you're having and you know i'm gonna footnote that one with and it's not about the experience right right exactly experience is secondary and it's nice to enjoy that experience those experiences when they come through with the knowledge that hey this is just transient like this is really great and it's transient yeah i'm not gonna get hooked on this or at least try not to well and something i think about maybe struggle i don't know if that's too strong of a word and let's see if this resonates with your own going more public with your with some of your teaching is that when you're in a more public space and it's part of a business for you as it is for me in some cases that you know the way people are interested in say deepening a practice is often through some of what those secondary benefits say like stress relief or feeling good in a particular way and yet in the back of our minds we know that that's not the ultimate reason to practice but it's also to use that burden buddhist language of skillful means that's a skillful way of entering into a practice so curious if you've wrestled with that at all in your own teaching yeah yeah actually so many layers to that one yeah i think i'm gonna answer sideways one of the most helpful things that i've learned in the last couple of years like that i think i knew this a lot for a long time but finally had words for it is that truth often comes in paradox or truth i think all truth comes in paradox right so so to use that example that you gave uh yes you know stress relief etc right as the you know topical symptomatic things you know that that gets somebody possibly onto the path or you know get them sort of on the path but not really committed because they're just you know in it for themselves or you know whatever those things are and at the same time you know the buddha taught a path out of suffering right right so so i think what we what i where i start getting into with a lot of that is um you know of course where the intention lies right um for why we're doing anything is a big part of that um i'm okay with uh if skillful means you know help somebody feel a little bit better you know helps them interact with the other humans out there a little bit better and does or does not lay the groundwork for what's next in the practice then i think that's great um you know and i i will encourage people to go deeper you know and also try to hold that balance of uh you know not forcing you know doctrine or ideas or right ideologies on people and sometimes that's really hard because i you know have gotten so much benefit i imagine if you got you have gotten some i mean look at you right like right for anybody who's listening appreciate that we're on zoom but but no you i mean you have that like you have that that peacefulness that comes right like um so yeah so i think it's a it's a multi-layered um you know multi-nuanced thing uh and yeah i think the i think we we take the topical for all the good reasons that i i take the topical for all the reasons that it can you know support stuff in the world and i keep you know inviting and challenging people to you know how can you basically connect more deeply with who you are and express yourself more fully you know and you know have a path of practice you know that supports and nourishes you not because it's supporting you you know and nourishing the ego right like hey i'm a meditator now check me out right yeah um which i you know i've done that i mean i think we've all done that right um but yeah just to have a have a you know just to find find your way to a practice that's really you know a place of refuge and you know you can just be expressing that practice kind of like the st francis quote from before you know and not worrying so much about telling all the people you know unless you have a a good reason to tell people and in this context today you know more and more people want their business with spirituality right and yeah not to not to say that too much like a marketer no but i mean there's there's truth to that i think people are hungry for for deeper meaning and purpose to their work exactly that it's not just about a paycheck i've come across some interesting experience uh that on some research that people have done i can't think of names off the top of my head of who did it but uh that that they found that uh people were willing to um forego pay increases for opportunities to find more meaning in their work and feel like they were helping people they were connecting to something deeper and a purpose beyond just a sale or a product you know yeah without denigrating the fact that we have to pay the bills so we do the sales we do the product um but but why and if i can connect that then wow that just that changes everything right yeah that's the stuff that will change an entire culture right of a company of an organization you know of a country yeah kind of get to it a little reminds me a bit of the evolutionary business council which is an organization that we're both a part of i just joined recently and part of their mission as well yeah indeed indeed yeah and um you know you had said something that sparked a sparked an idea and then it's gone for the moment so let me let it come back if it comes it might come back around yeah well and i was thinking too about how how we offer the teaching publicly without without being dogmatic without but yet at the same time like wanting to open that space to say there's there's some incredible depth here if you want to go there and then what i've found too is that the people who do want to go there or are ready to go there are often the ones sticking around after a workshop or a talk or connecting you know sending a message through a website or whatever it is you know so those opportunities usually come yeah they do which is really nice i love um probably in you know several several uh you know religious books from forever you know just the idea of seek for the truth and the truth shall appear yeah right like you know um do you know uh shree nisargadatta maharaj i don't think so don't know that yeah okay so so i mean i know maharajee but i'm thinking that's some something different somebody else yeah i'm just picking up the book so i can make sure i'm saying things correctly oh yeah um so shree nisargadatta maharaj kind of sounds like kind of spelled like it sounds he wrote a book called i am that and he was a realized being in india um i think he passed away i don't know if his 90s 80s 90s 2000 something like that and um you know just like uh he was uh just a regular person bd you know like he i think he worded worked in a bd factory so bd's are those for anybody who knows the those um kind of nasty smelling indian cigarettes that you can only get in india i think i think he worked in a bd shop and all these things and he basically you know he he had followed a guru and you know the guru said you know just do this one thing um and he did for three years and became a realized being and if you you know if you read his stuff like clearly like he gets it um i don't get i don't get all the words he uses all the time because some of the uh the languaging and framework comes from you know more of the hindu side of things and the idea of self and that kind of stuff like there's some of that terminology you know that that is not all my terminology but you know whether there's a self or not like you know we're all going to the same place we're all doing the same thing for the same reason right like you know no offense to the self people no offense well that's the great hindu buddhist debate right and if we can resolve it in this podcast then you know that would be amazing but yes i'm saying don't worry about it yeah that's i think many people have come to that conclusion yeah yeah that we don't even know what we mean by those words in in a ultimate sense but exactly yeah i wanted to circle back because one thing you said in there was how um i i'm not even going to try to say his name but that his guru said do this one thing and i love that um going deep into a practice is actually uh the simple part i think people sometimes think oh i've got to learn all these techniques and yoga and stand in my head and learn different mantras and learn sanskrit or whatever but um most traditions really keep it simple i mean you talked before about right the triangle breath that you come to focus on the upper lip the sense of feeling in the heart i've talked about the sacred word um that really the depth comes from the absolute simplicity and single focus of a practice and it's the it's the my my experience if this is true for you it's the daily commitment to come back to that that's where the depth comes um and that's sometimes maybe a little confusing for people maybe new to a practice or something yeah yeah yeah so many layers to this one too yeah yeah a multi-layered podcast here we yes exactly it's so great and i'm so glad we're having this conversation um yeah i i yeah so i i think the greatest teachings you know dare i say this the greatest teachings i think the greatest teachings are the simple teachings um i think there are a lot of teachings that are supplemented and complemented you know with with theory and with hypothesis and with scripture and with commentaries you know there's all sorts of stuff and and because we're human beings and we have the brains and we have the the reasoning capacity you know it can help to follow a logic train right to kind of set something in your mind of hey this thing is possible right like we wouldn't necessarily know to go for the truth if we didn't know that there was a truth to go for and very often that comes through somebody's scripture or somebody's teaching or somebody's example whatever that case is right so and the reason why i say that is because i find it incredibly value and then so many people get stuck in the scripture or the teaching or whatever it is and often neglect the actual practice yeah yes that's and and and then you know and then and then wage wars no pun intended because literally that's what they're doing you know it's like come on everybody and again the simplest meta or sane phrase that brings me back to that that um i think is a zen saying but the the finger pointing to the moon is not the moon exactly we're aiming for the moon exactly use the finger if it helps point you in the right direction and have deep reverence for it i do exactly but also i think we that's where fundamentalism start to come in is when we we attach to the finger or the whatever it is the the vehicle yeah yeah because i don't imagine there are many fundamentalists listening at this moment um but i want to say to all of them that you know hey you don't have to do that anymore yeah and it's it's a lot more fun it's so much more fun it's so much more peaceful like a lot less anger less anger better family relationships you know spousal relationships better job probably higher income you know yeah interesting yeah yeah uh okay so i want to ask you about like your what like what does your daily practice look like on a really practical level like is there time of day that you practice a set amount of time um kind of habits that you've developed around it yeah uh so it's it's it's evolved over over a few years um so when i was doing uh the vipassana practice their um their invitation recommendation was an hour in the morning an hour in the evening of sitting which is which is no joke yeah i mean i teach 20 to 30 minutes twice a day i mean i didn't come up with that but that's kind of the tradition i teach out of and i think that's hard sometimes sometimes indeed indeed yeah so so there were several of those years that i was really good at that there are several of those years that i wasn't really sitting there's several years where it was you know anything in between um you know and you know in all honesty you know my practice continues to evolve um and from my now whatever this year is my 14 years of doing this um you know what i really understand is that persistence and consistency are the most important parts of this right so if you can like meditate for one minute a day you know instead of skipping a day right like instead of meditating seven minutes on saturday like and and think of that principle and just scale it up to whatever level right so you know go up to tom's 20 or 30 minutes right you know instead of saving that 20 or 30 minutes for saturday time seven because a it doesn't make sense and be you know just like meditation pardon me just like exercise uh just like uh you know dieting just just like just about everything right the persistence and the consistency are what gets you there right not the you know i'm gonna lift 300 pounds on saturday and then you know sit on the couch you know for the other six days right like it doesn't work like that and you know if you meditated one day a week as opposed to no days a week then awesome good for you keep it up you know may you build upon that but but you know like uh you know take the take the lesson from tom and me and you know get your minute a day and whatever that is starting now and you can add on and you can you know you can do it on the cushion which i mean yes do it on the cushion or on the proverbial cushion whether that's your chair you know lying down don't you know make sure you're not falling asleep okay um and then also you know how do you bring that out into the world with you so the aforementioned practice that i'm doing with with bante using the loving kindness you know the feeling of love in the heart you know a i'm using that as an object when i'm sitting but then when i'm walking around out in the world like i am sending loving kindness to people right i'm kind of like pointing my heart at people so to speak like what a brilliant practice because it's it's hard to get or stay mad at people when you're pushing love in their direction yeah curious if you've ever heard of the heart math institute yes okay so i don't know it very deeply um i've had at least one maybe two other guests talk about it but just interesting how there's even scientific ways that we can measure the energy the electrical currents that emanate from the heart when we're in different spaces so it might there is sort of that you know the imagining piece that you talked about of pointing that loving kindness at people but there's something really happening there yeah yeah you're totally right yeah i don't know tons of heart math stuff as well but they have my understanding like good science that measures these things you know it's not like hey we have this kind of thing we made in the garage to measure you know it's made out of tinfoil and a colander a metal strainer to measure how much heart you have man yeah no these that these this is a legitimate organization doing a bunch of work for a bunch of years now right and um yeah and and you know i think when you get into other disciplines like if you get into quantum physics right like there is no solidity there's no separation right like throughout the entire cosmos right so why wouldn't like you know me pointing love in that direction not going that direction and why would it even why wouldn't it stop why would it stop before the end of the universe right right and people's like you drop that on some people they're like no you know whoa so big yes and like yes and right well to use that quantum example right that the whole and the part are all contained in in the moment right and that's what another piece i think of what a regular practice does it tethers us to that moment so that we're more attuned to what our intentions are how we're sending those out into the world how we're acting in alignment or not in alignment with them yeah absolutely yeah yeah yeah please after you yeah so what about how do you experience the fruits of your practice if you will in daily life and in the work that you do in the world because i think that's an important piece too yeah so i'm gonna um i have to check in with myself for a second here because something's happening um interesting yeah so i'm gonna share something that i have not shared in a public venue before okay wow yeah um and and you know i say this with humility and gratitude and as you know a as an answer to your question um you know and also as you know yay yay for the the teachings that we practice and that give us fruit right so uh when i made that switch over to that different practice i went and sat a retreat a nine-day retreat with bhante um you know doing this practice and he talked about things um in on the buddhist path that most of the other teachers that i've encountered were saying like you know this will take you a bunch of lifetimes you know this is not don't expect this to happen in this lifetime unless you like work like a crazy person at it and you know what i mean so long path long path long path and bhante was like you know several of my people on each retreat like get that attainment by like the fourth day and i was like you got to be kidding me right because again i'm all thinking of all the things that i had heard and all and all the things i believed from all the legitimate teachers and i'm not knocking anybody when i say this right sure but this is this is my direct experience you know bhante's like hey you know this is do the thing this is how you do it right and then on on the eighth day like i had that attainment and it was not like i had like oh my god the blissful insight that you know like i came crashing down a couple days later it was like no like i had the attainment and you know the buddhist description was like i saw the arising of the consciousness and the fading away and when you see like the buddha teaches the whole time you know that anything that is in constant which is everything is is stressful right like create stress because you can't count on it and at the point when you actually see it in your meditation it basically like unravels a whole bunch of like the the you know and i'm using ben terms not bhante and not buddha terms well that's probably good yeah it's a little more it makes it approachable yeah but like all the charge not all the charge so much of the charge i mean we're talking in like the high 90 percentile of all of the things that i used to worry about my life like just went away and it's not that the things went away but the worries went away like i i know from my own experience like my own internal like i know my anxiety feelings right like i know where they are somatically i know what's up with them tell me how much i don't like them yeah yes all of that kind of stuff like since my bhante experience i have had like less than five of those that quality of emotion i mean literally less than five and each of those episodes episodes each of those you know spans of experience like less than two minutes like it's stunning like the whole like like everything is fine right and it's not a pollyanna everything is fine it doesn't mean that like i still don't you know suffer and get angry and be judgmental and you know bump my toe and do all those things but it's just like it's like you know there's this been this switch that has happened and you know the if you ever read the power of now by akartali um other familiar with it but i actually haven't read it yeah yeah totally totally okay and probably he you know other books of his as well like he talks about having an awakening experience and then he basically went and sat on a bench for like eight months and just kind of went like wow whoa um so like i'm having my version of that like i'm not sitting on a bench but i'm going through like my entire life just like doing all the things i normally do like i'm watching netflix right like i'm eating chinese food i'm walking in the park right you know just all of my all of ben i'm doing ben right and it's all just like from a place of ease now like the like my business took off four months after the bante retreat right and i can't say therefore you know my business took off but interestingly enough after 10 years my business took off and it's like and i mean it's not that i don't work hard sometimes but i don't rush anymore i don't push anymore and as soon as i feel like i'm pushing i like i'm stepping back and i'm just like i'm trusting it i'm like you know what this universe is infinitely bigger than i am right why am i going to fight against like the unfolding of everything around me and i really really got that from this whole experience wow yeah wow okay now i've got layers that i need to unpack here in that because that was that was incredible thank you first of all thank you for sharing that you're welcome thank you i didn't know that was going to happen today and and you know i feel these are the moments that i live for in this yeah because it's so beautiful and authentic and it's clearly not you know it's not scripted well my first thought is immediately we had we had email exchanges prior to this but we we hadn't sort of been on zoom like this and then as soon as we got on this call i my immediate sense was an incredible kind of lightness and freedom that you exude and now i know why after you just explained that and then the other piece that i want to touch on is you talked about how that has applied to like your business and not getting caught up in pushing things to happen i had a um i i i don't think it was quite as profound as what you're describing as on your retreat but just a few days ago um i just released a new website and and some you know things i'm really excited about and i pushed a little too hard on my email list and started getting a lot of people bouncing back and even marking the emails as as spam or junk because i was probably sending too many because i was all excited and i wanted to like force it you know yeah and i got so then i got really upset and i went into my like shame cycle right oh you idiot why'd you do that you know you're ruining your success what even as it's happening but again it but there was a part of me that was watching it where i wasn't 100 caught up in it and at the this was all in like a day by the end of that day what i came back to was ah the the lesson and the gift in this experience is when i let it happen it happens and when i push and it becomes about me it becomes about my ego it becomes about what the outcome that i want versus the outcome that is right for everybody involved you know so that that's really profound affirmation in your own story so i appreciate hearing that you're very welcome and i appreciate what you said in in response you know it reminds me of there's an author named wallace wattles yeah yeah you know what i do i yep yeah yeah so for for listener context one of the very first people who was writing you know self-development personal development books so probably like in the you know early few 1900s kind of time even late 1800s maybe 1800s i don't know i don't know yeah maybe maybe you're right early 1900s yeah well well before any of us were on the earth yeah right yeah and you know the time of thinking grow rich from napoleon hill like that kind of stuff and um you know wallace wattles has the science of being rich the science of being great and i think the science of being well as a health it's like a three-part yeah and and in the science of being either rich or great or both probably both you know he talks about like you can own you know do everything you can in the day you know like on the day that you can do it and then that's it yeah you know what i mean and and it is so profound right it's so first it's like oh yeah i'll just yeah i can only do what i can do during the day it's like no stop right there listen to tommy tom's example and ben yeah yeah like that you think you can do so much more and you have to do so much more and you know and this is a funny balance and this is truth and paradox again because you need to do the work like the universe will not be a co-conspirator and a co-creator if you are not taking the steps doing the things like you can't i mean contrary to you know what's this i'm gonna i'm gonna contradict myself several times in the next 10 seconds well truth resides in paradox as you pointed out earlier thank you yeah so so so on the one hand you know like um you know uh don't what's that don't don't just do something meditate yeah and and on the other hand you know don't just sit there do something right like both of those things are true for all of the things that we're describing like that that you know the the intention and the action pardon me yes the intention like the volition the reason why you're doing the thing and then the action and the expression of that thing uh you know is incredibly important like and both of those things have to be together like you can't just get there with intention and you can't just get there with the action right it's a really you know the the two wings of what you're doing yeah okay so i want to go back to your description of the the moment you had as well because you were putting in your terms and i'm gonna maybe put it a little bit into my terms and see if this resonates with you but the way you were describing that particularly because i've struggled with anxiety you talked about how going from maybe getting caught up in that regularly or frequently to just five times and that it being very short and so what i was picturing was that that as you were going into that familiar response in your body and in your mind that there was a part of you that stayed out of that sort and you could it's almost like you could watch a storm forming on the horizon right the clouds were gathering but instead of just getting lost in that you saw it you knew it was happening but you didn't get totally caught up in it and because of that were able to kind of allow it to just almost pass through you and see in buddhist language we'd almost talk to talk about the formlessness of what of what is happening at the heart of it is that accurate to like your description it it yes and yeah just to keep keep all the paradox yes please you know so everything that you said is is absolutely accurate and beautiful and and clear and everybody's who's listening you know listen to tom when he says that and and what i noticed was what you just described was sounded sounded to me like it was almost like there was a conscious awareness of like there's the storm and i'm watching it from over here right and that that conscious awareness of the storm that happens when the storm is really really big right like when the comes through but like the rest of the time when it's not like really really big like i i will feel like bloop of like that discomfort bloop of that guilt bloop of that like lust right and and every once in a while like i'll i'll have the i'll have them and so and i'm not even like i'm not even stopping to watch it it's just like you know oh there was something there was something right like it's like that subtle and then the the more engaged awareness comes when the storm is really big wow sorry i'm pausing because i just i want to take that in i love it yeah it's it's really so i have so much gratitude it's it's like the it's like you know over this last year like like everything not everything mostly everything like from the past became okay like all the things that like would be running around in my head and like the regret i had about this or the anger i had at this person like so many of the most of those things like really became okay right like the fact that you know it's taking it took me 10 years to like get a business working and you know i found my way into some you know incredible debt and you know the fact that like many years ago i didn't you know in tremendous quantity of drugs and you know i've spent i've probably spent more than like 200 000 on drugs in my life right yeah yeah like it's all okay right like i don't recommend it it's not okay as in promotional yeah right it's funny i don't want to go back there i'm not going back there and like it's all okay because with the everything else i just described really came like forgiveness came through in its most profound form for me right it's just like you know because and and and bante's what's the word you know kind of like side side person i can't even think of a great word right now david let's call him david because that's his name okay yeah david david talks about the idea with forgiveness of forgiving your forgiving yourself and forgiving the other person for not understanding right because at the time of the thing it happened because you or that person or both of you did not fully understand you know whatever was going on whatever you were you know blindly doing like and this is not these are not excuses you know this is not this is not a like we still got to take 100% responsibility for all our actions and forgiving ourselves forgiving each other for not understanding was one of the most powerful things that came out of that because it it also gave me words to be able to share yeah oh that's beautiful someone who's teaching i think is good on that point is tara brock who also comes out of that vipassana background as well as the trained psychologist but i always appreciate when in her talks that she will mention like yes accepting where people were they're at even forgiving them and ourselves for the things that we've done but that doesn't mean we make ourselves into a uh a doormat that we still have boundaries we still need to sometimes express to people that what they're doing is not okay and and protect ourselves in that way and it's again right well there's another paradox for you to to chew on oh that's good stuff well are there other i don't know aspects of your practice or ways that you now integrate that into the work that you do that you'd like to share or touch upon sure sure so um i'll kind of jump around a little bit and try to try to popcorn some things and then you know give talk about something a little bit longer so you know just the idea of of right speech by the buddha you know speaking kind and kindly in you know ways that support people in the conversation and doesn't create more harm i mean that's interwoven into all of what i teach around writing books and positioning oneself and being a better leader being a better communicator you know more empathy right asking for stories sharing stories listening listening say it again listening lots of listening yes yeah so so all of those things you know in there tremendously and then um you know kind of in a bigger picture the idea of of being you know clear and aligned among you know who you are what you're about why you're here how you want to serve who you want to serve what you want to offer and then offering that to them um you know not as easy as that sentence came out of my mouth i know i'm thinking about my own process like gosh that seems easy it's really kind of a challenge yeah yeah um but just the more and and that that is a practice just like everything else is a practice right it's not they they call it a spiritual practice not a spiritual perfect yeah and this applies here and you know coming into all of that alignment that i just described you know it takes some time right and that's okay but the more you are you know aligned and more an expression of yourself like the more you're going to enjoy your work whether it's a job you have you know and you're injecting that enjoyment into it or it's a job you're creating right like this is not just for the entrepreneurs and the solopreneurs like this is for all of us right um so there's that and then the last part was i um i you know have been doing public speaking for quite a while and i had two experiences in india in 2004 and 2006 that have been you know they're both in my book or yes they're both in my book and um you know i've i've told the story in the context of of giving talks and presentations before but uh this year i actually presented that talk at speakers who dare which is an event in new york city and what i was able to do and a lot of it came from that experience at that retreat with bante i was able to really uh what's the word clarify and articulate the two experiences that i had you know into tangible wisdom that i could articulate and and teach from so basically uh right so so basically the the practice and the teachings you know helped me process and experience that now you know is part of my curriculum and the core of my teaching and it's not and and it's uh it's not only meditation stuff um but i also use the recording of the talk for my students to show them a certain kind of story arc and what i did in this place and hey if you do something like this put that at the front of your book that's going to be an interesting book like even if you don't have like a crazy wacky story but just something that connects you to the audience yeah that resonates with them yeah yeah so those are so that's how the those are the kind of big ways that that the practice and the teachings you know are informing my work yeah yeah well i just i appreciate hearing the stories of where where that's really lined up because i think that's for me anyways that's where i feel that spark of of energy of like yeah yeah that's what we that's what we need more of in the world yeah and like you said not just it doesn't have to be in just for the solopreneur space but you know any kind of traditional workplace or non-traditional and everything in between that's just it's really who we bring into the world and whether or not we do that with with as much integrity as we can in the moment yeah yeah yeah that beautifully said um my my coach who i'm referencing several times today thank you joseph um was that joseph rancid it is just a friend okay so he's he's the one who like found this podcast and reached out to me and that's how i got connected with with you and mag and oh that's so funny kinds of other people yeah okay okay beautiful all right yeah nice to know all that um but yeah he says something to the effect of uh you know our best ability to you know be doing these great things in the world comes from how we are being first and foremost right like we can get so much further by our being being aligned being peaceful you know being receptive and capable in whatever's coming up in the moment versus just doing and trying to make the things happen and for things forward right because when you're in that space of being you know you're not you're in a space of of calm and peace and like that's where all the magic happens like that's where the wisdom comes through the intuition comes through you know that's your ability to be nimble and to do what's needed in the moment you know more than what you may have thought needed to happen in that moment yeah and there's a there's a piece that i haven't found a better word for it yet but i don't find it to be an adequate word but it's intuition is what i'm thinking that when you are fully in the moment there are those times where i don't know maybe we all have our habits and our playbooks that we follow and then you have these moments or i've had these moments where i'll do something different i'm not even sure why it's like a sense and then it just opens up a whole new realm of possibilities and and it can be like a a problem that has we've been working on for years say in a team at work or something or a personal relationship or issue and then it's like oh how how did that happen how did that break in right but it but to your point earlier we have to be listening and paying attention otherwise we miss those when they opportunities when they come up right right and for the listening like we need to be quiet and even if that's just for a couple of moments right and and it's it can be hard to be quiet right like i'm coming down right now i'm gonna rush so i can go do yoga you know yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so so it is a practice and the reason why i'm saying that right now is because you know people's people started you know like any any habit like trying to make something regular and it's not exciting it's not appealing right like all these kinds of things it's not meant to be exciting like pleasant things will happen you know sometimes it'll be a lovely meditation sometimes it'll be like the worst meditation ever ever both of those statements are incorrect right really break it down right it was that's what those are the things that happened during that time when you were sitting there right is really the brass tacks and the mere fact that you were sitting there with the intention of sitting there and the intention of staying you know with your breath or with your heart or whatever that is is the most important thing or maybe that and the fact that every time you got distracted you came back yeah yeah those are like that's it and and you know for all of you who are doing meditation continuing meditation about to do meditation like don't you know don't get caught in it has it's going to be like this it's going to be great you know let it be great by not expecting anything from it other than you show up right amen yeah yeah i don't know what the buddhist word for amen is in pali but uh arsensa great but whatever it is it's um you know what it is it's uh sadhu sadhu sadhu huh and do you know that term well sadhu doesn't that mean like a one who is devoted to practice right so in in i think in the hindu like kind of pantheon terminology etc the sa sa do is is one of those people but in uh in pali so at the end of um the end of the sittings the sadhu sadhu sadhu harkens back to the monks and the nuns basically saying the teaching was given and they would say yes it is good sadhu sadhu sadhu okay yeah and that is very similar to the original hebrew aramaic roots of amen oh right on yeah yeah very cool we've made the circle yeah absolutely love it nice ah well okay i have a couple if you're if you're game i have a couple questions i like to ask everybody at the end and they're like fill fill in the blank just whatever pops into your head okay oh my god it's like mad libs yeah so i i like to use the word contemplation you might think of it in terms of meditation or practice but um so how would you fill this in contemplation is a gift the purpose of contemplation is all about discovering yourself i can't help but say this if there is a self right thank you you're the buddhist here well you know tom i'm gonna jump in for a second um i love what goenka uh going to g taught around the term buddhist yeah which which i ascribe to he said you know buddhist is you got to be careful with that one too because it can be secular and dogmatic right but how about you know person who follows the teachings of the buddha which is very similar to where i've come to it's harder to say but in my own understanding of one raised in the catholic christian tradition saying that you know one who follows the teachings of christ yeah because christian has taken on all kinds of political and other kinds of connotations that can be an obstacle for another person hearing a teaching you know yeah yeah yeah sorry to interrupt no it was a good interruption i like interruptions okay is there a word or a phrase that captures the heart of your contemplative experience love and joy that's two words three words two of the four uh divine abodes exactly yeah exactly thank you yeah and then do you have a hope for the next generation or those who are picking up or sticking with contemplative practice yes that they you i'm going to speak to you right now that yes it's good to try out some things because this is an amazing world and yes try out some practices check some things out and then as soon as you can you know dig the deep well as the analogy goes and dig into a practice and go deep into a practice and go deep into that practice for like at least five years before you think about switching to another practice because if you really want to get the fruits right like don't worry about so much this practice is better don't you know go with what you resonate and what you will do and that you feel comfortable and safe and supported and loved in the community of practitioners around you and do it for five years and then if you need to double check and maybe change something then that's fine but um you know if not then keep it going oh i love that because i think there there is there are so many different things out there that you can ping pong around um and just like we talked about earlier you can get caught up in the fundamentalism i think it's a similar kind of distraction to get caught up in the shiny pearls of the surface level of all the different kinds of practices and different teachers so i would wholeheartedly agree with that to if you want to to throw yourself in and trust a tradition that has been proven and go with that yeah yeah i think the term uh spiritual materialism yeah right like just all the i've been to all these retreats and i've drank all the all this ayahuasca and you know all this and and that's fine right but a you know stop talking about it right unless you're trying to help someone right right um and then even be careful at that point and be you know just like commit to something because like like you're gonna die i'm gonna die we're all gonna die there's no we have no idea when right like so you know i'd like to say like the sooner you know and again don't freak out but like the sooner you find your way into that abode right into that refuge you know that's going to support your departure from this life that seems like a fitting thought to to conclude on since that's where we're all headed together and the great equalizer between us all right indeed wow thank you so much for your time and your wisdom thank you yeah this is absolutely dynamite and i got to you know explore a couple places and share a couple things that you know hadn't come up before so i'm really really grateful for just expert you know not just interviewing but listening and holding space all the things that you are doing so thank you so much tom thanks again everybody for listening ben makes it look so easy to align his contemplative practice with his personal and professional life but as the saying goes simple ain't easy it is easy to get stuck in constantly feeling overwhelmed or confused about how to deepen a contemplative practice unfortunately that leads too many people to give up or to never even try in the first place i hear from people every day who just don't know what to do or who want to get back into their practice but don't know where to start that's too bad because these are common problems and they really can be solved if you're looking for added support you can also visit the show notes page at thomas j bushlach dot com forward slash episode 28 that's episode 2 8 you can check out ben's process for developing your big idea into a profitable book or join my email list to keep getting tips and opportunities to deepen your practice life flies by so quickly so don't waste another minute not taking action on aligning your spiritual contemplative practice with your desire to give back to the world finally my intention and prayer is always that you find inspiration to learn more to go deeper into your practice and to open your heart to share your gifts with our world that needs so much healing right now until next time peace to you and to everyone you encounter keep using your voice to speak truth compassion and justice into our world peace and thanks again for listening you

Reviews

Thank you 🙏🏽 so beautiful and deep. I was moved by the thought that our spiritual practices lay the foundation for our departure from this life. As I pondered this tears of gratitude fell and I said oh Lord, and these lyrics poured out from me, oh lord won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz, my friends all drive Porsches, I must made amends (Janis Joplin)… I laughed and laughed..and thought don’t take things so seriously, yet, this is all so serious…I love the paradox of life, breath, of being…thank you, I enjoyed this talk very much 🙏🏽♥️💐

This discussion was so helpful, intriguing, and insightful -- the interchange between both of you was so comfortable and fluid that the take-aways, for me, are several. Sometimes the message gets lost in the chatter within a podcast, though you were both "synced up" and the result was a sincere delivery that sensibly resonated with me. Thank you to both of you! -Lee

Amazing On so many levels. Thankyou Tom for healing the Christian divide for me. I listen to your morning prayer often before my sit. This conversation is resonating in my being with gratitude and wonder. Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou