Untwisted Sistahs From The Same Mistah (Season 2)

We often confuse being loyal to our mothers with being loyal to their wounds which kills our authenticity. These unhappy mothers cause their daughters to feel responsible for their losses and pass on the pain, creating dysfunctional enmeshment, and teaching the daughter that her mother’s pain is her fault. The story of these 2 sisters (who share the same father) discovering each other late in life is incredible. They both had toxic mothers in very different ways. Dozens of AHA moments here.

Transcript

Welcome to the Stuck Stops here,

Season two,

Episode six.

Hola!

Untwisted sisters from the same mista.

Stay tuned.

That's the name.

Is this a bitter end or a brand new start?

Am I falling together?

Hey,

Tammy.

What up,

LW?

Pretty good,

Pretty good.

Happy President's Day.

So.

Absolutely.

Could you buy any furniture?

Yes,

Of course.

Wonderful.

And a new car.

Today we have a special,

Special,

Super special guest on our podcast.

It's my very own sister.

And her name is Yochi Yachir Avin.

She is a tremendous artist.

And we have an incredible story to tell.

So hang on to your hats.

Tammy,

Don't let that hat fly away.

I would never.

So my sister Yochi was born in Poland.

And obviously I was not born in Poland.

I was born in New York.

And she grew up in Israel.

It's quite a story here.

LW and her sister found each other late in life.

Yeah.

And the incredible part of the story is that even though they share the same father,

They had two very different mothers,

Both inflicted their own unique mother wounds onto their daughter.

And I'm gonna get into what a mother wound is.

But I wanted to reiterate how special it is to have LW and her sister on here to share their painful,

But yet opposing stories.

Dissimilar and they share the same dad.

That's right.

That's right.

So let's talk a little bit about the subject matter before we get Yochi on.

So I attached links to three articles that talk about this.

There's books on it too,

But these articles were fantastic.

And they talk about the mother wound is manifested when a mother whose own personal trauma,

Whether it's verbal abuse,

Emotional abuse,

Abandonment,

Or neglect that she experienced as a child was not dealt with.

So to feel safe in the world,

These mothers adopted toxic coping mechanisms that developed into character flaws.

And these character flaws manifest itself in many ways.

And then such as unhealthy ways of communicating,

Emotionally abusing the child,

Over-controlling,

Manipulation,

Constant criticism,

Guilt trips,

Narcissism,

Self-absorption,

Greedy,

The list goes on.

So the message to these daughters who have mothers with unhealed wounds,

The message is,

If you adopt this same self-loathing that they have,

You will remain in sync and connected to your mother.

If you don't adopt these self-hate,

You will in some way feel like you're betraying her.

So by affirming your own power and your own potential,

There is risk that your mother will see this as a personal rejection.

So if you think about the way,

Basically,

Years ago,

Children should be seen or not heard,

And women were second-class citizens,

And to some extent today they still are.

I don't wanna get into the politics of it.

I wanna stick to the emotions of it.

So there was a lot of pain associated with being minimized,

Socially,

Culturally,

Politically,

And spiritually.

So they pass that pain on,

And the daughters are afraid to break free from that pain and realize their own full potential,

Because it may mean risking rejection by the mother.

So we end up confusing being loyal to our mothers with being loyal to their wounds and thus participating in our own oppression.

These dynamics are subtle,

Covert,

Overt,

And they also operate on a spectrum.

So when mothers consciously or unconsciously cause their daughters to feel responsible for their losses and to share in their pain,

It creates a dysfunctional enmeshment,

And that reinforces these daughters' views,

That they are not worthy of pursuing their own dreams.

And this also teaches the daughter to view her mother's pain as the daughter's fault.

And this is crippling.

So,

And I am the daughter of a narcissistic mother,

And the cost of not healing from a toxic upbringing,

Whether it's your mother or you or me,

Is living your entire life with the following problems.

A vague,

Persistent sense that there's something wrong with me.

Never pursuing your potential or life purpose out of fear of failure or disapproval.

Having weak boundaries and having no idea of who you are.

Not feeling worthy or capable of creating what you truly want.

Not ever feeling safe enough to take up space in this world and voice your truth.

Arranging your life around never rocking the boat.

Self-sabotaging when you get close to a breakthrough.

And unconsciously waiting for your mother's permission or approval before claiming your own life.

So that all applied to me.

There is more detail about the mother wound in the articles that I've attached,

And is very eye-opening for me.

And I'm excited to share this with you,

Both from my own perspective,

As well as LW and her sister's perspective,

Because hearing their story from very different dynamics,

I'm hoping will elicit some clarity for the listener,

And give even more options of ways to heal and understand what you have experienced.

That's great.

And with that,

We're gonna be right back with Yochai Yacir-Avon on the line.

Thank you.

I'm going down just to catch my fall.

Keep on keeping on even when I had to crawl.

My wings were broken from towing at night.

Keep on leaving what is never leaving.

And we're back.

Yochai,

You're here.

Hello,

Say hello to our audience.

Hello,

Hello.

Thank you for having me.

And I can't wait for you to share your experiences.

So LW and Yochai,

And correct me if I'm wrong,

I believe LW had a codependent mother,

And Yochai had a narcissistic mother.

Am I correct?

Correct,

Yes.

Okay,

So now that we got that ironed out,

If you don't mind,

I would love to first start with the inspirational part and how you got in touch,

Because that's a great part of this story before we get into your mothers.

Right.

Go right ahead.

Yochai,

You wanna go first on that one?

Yes,

Definitely.

Well,

I know about my brothers ever since I was eight,

When my twin brothers,

No,

When my father got married,

And then when I was nine,

My twin brothers,

They were born.

And probably by the time I was 10,

Lisa was born,

So I knew about them all along.

But when I was 16,

I traveled to the United States to visit my family,

My grandmother,

And of course my father and Helen.

And I stayed with them for three months,

So I did know them,

But they didn't know I'm their sister.

That's right.

So you spent time with her.

I think I was five years old,

Right?

So you remember meeting her,

But didn't know she was your sister?

I didn't know.

Right.

Right.

But Yochai knew.

Yeah,

I was 16.

Of course I knew.

Wow.

I,

Yes.

And I connected with them.

I loved them very much.

And when there was time to leave after three months,

I was devastated.

You were devastated,

And you went back to Israel,

Right?

I went back to Israel,

Yeah.

Wow.

So you said,

Yochai,

You said you remember that I was five.

You remember I was very upset when you left.

Yes,

Yes.

The day I was supposed to leave,

Yeah,

Lisa didn't want to go to school.

She cried a lot.

She understood I'm leaving,

And she was very upset about it.

And she,

Yes,

She had a hard time to go to bed the night before.

And the morning,

She didn't want to go to school.

I don't remember any of that.

So your mother knew about,

Your,

L.

W.

's mother knew,

But L.

W.

's mother never told you,

Correct?

Right,

Right.

Okay.

Got it.

Yeah.

So when's the next time you saw her?

I,

When I was 21,

I got married,

And I was expecting my father to come today,

To my party,

To my wedding,

And he did not.

And I was very disappointed and very upset because as far as I knew,

He was supposed to come.

And I was so upset that I didn't connect with my father for 30 years.

But by the time I was 50,

I realized that if nobody contacted me,

It means that they don't know about me.

And then I reached out and I called,

I looked for,

I didn't know anything what's happening,

If,

What,

Where.

I didn't know anything about them.

So when you got married,

He did,

Did he tell you why he wasn't coming?

No.

Okay.

I found out the why,

Actually at the Shiva when he died.

Oh,

Wow.

Yeah.

And it wasn't what you expected,

Right?

You were surprised.

No,

Absolutely not.

Yeah.

So I wanna get,

That's,

I wanna get back to that.

So you didn't see or hear from your dad or contact LW for 30 years?

And not from Helen.

Helen,

When I visited,

When I was 16,

We connected really,

We had a great connection,

Which we did always when I renew the contact.

Well,

She loved you.

Helen loved you.

I know I loved her.

She was,

I felt like she was my second mother.

So you connected with LW's mother.

It was,

It was a wonderful experience,

Correct?

We connect,

Yeah.

Yeah,

That happened when I was 50.

50.

Yeah.

30 years later.

Yeah.

So.

And yet when you were 50,

I still didn't know that you existed.

No,

I came,

I,

First I was pretty much upset.

I didn't want to stay with them,

But that lasted only like two days.

My father came to pick me up and I stayed with them for the next two weeks.

And then,

All the time I was there,

Lisa and my brother were calling almost every day,

But they didn't know I'm there.

And when I was there,

I asked my father and Helen to please tell the children what's happening,

That they have a sister and so on.

And it took another year until they did.

So when you came and visited when you were 50,

What was the purpose of that visit?

To understand why the children don't know about me.

Why?

So you must have had some sort of,

Shall we say spiritual awakening at turning 50 that made you want to- No,

I thought that,

But by that time,

They should know.

They are old enough and mature enough to know if there was a problem before.

So now they are,

You know,

Adults,

They should know.

Okay.

Of course.

So I was 40,

I was 40 when they finally came and told me.

That's right.

And was she here in the United States when you were informed?

No.

Okay.

And I was shocked.

I had no idea.

So- And my brothers were shocked.

Right.

Yeah,

We are still shocked.

We're still shocked.

So what year,

What year and how old were you both when you reconnected in person?

What year was that and how old were you both?

A year later,

Around,

I was 51.

Lisa was probably 41 or two.

Yeah.

2010,

Shall we say?

Is that- Yeah.

2009.

2009,

2010.

Okay.

Just want to get a sort of a timeline here.

Yeah.

Yeah,

We met for the first time.

And seven,

I think.

So this,

When you were told,

Was it in front of your dad,

LW?

Yeah.

Yeah,

Both my parents sat me down and told me the story.

And I had such mixed emotions.

I could not understand why they wouldn't have told me,

Why so many years went by and I didn't know I had a sister.

Did they give you a reason why you were not told?

It was under the guise of protection because my mother was notoriously overprotective.

So this was her way of protecting.

I still don't understand it,

But that's what she said.

Well,

We're going to get into that when we talk about codependent mothers.

So were you there,

Yoki,

When your dad and LW's mother told her?

Were you there?

No,

No,

I wasn't there.

Okay,

So.

And they immediately contacted me.

Immediately they looked for me and reached out and we immediately talked.

And yeah,

Pretty soon after that,

I came to the Batmitzvah.

Yeah.

Oh,

Great.

So after you guys,

You get introduced and quote unquote reconnect,

How has the relationship been since?

Amazing.

It's great.

I always wanted a sister.

And as I told you once,

Yoki,

In a birthday card I wrote to you,

To find out you have a sister late in life,

But then to find out that it's someone as cool and amazing and talented and wonderful as you are is such a gift.

It's so incredible.

You could have been a crazy person,

You know what I mean?

Yeah,

Yeah.

Like me,

Like you.

No,

But you turned out to be like the most incredible,

I could never have,

I could not have designed a better sister.

You're amazing,

Amazing.

So this is,

You know,

So.

Yoki,

Kudos to you for reaching out 30 years later at the age of 50 to say,

This needs to happen.

You stood your ground.

Yeah,

Yeah.

It wasn't simple for them,

It wasn't.

Because when you hide for so long the secret,

Then to one sunny day to come and tell,

You know,

I have a secret,

I never told you,

It's hard.

Oh,

It's very hard.

Yeah,

Keeping secrets is toxic as we all find out.

As we get more clarity on our life.

So,

Yoki,

Can we get,

In getting back to the mother wound,

Can you,

In a couple of sentences,

Describe what life was like with your narcissistic mother?

Well,

As a child,

I think I practically didn't have any childhood.

It was,

Yeah,

It was,

I was always the responsible one.

I have to be,

I had to be always okay.

I had to take care of my mother.

How did you take care of her?

How did you take care of her?

Was it emotionally or physically or both?

Both.

So,

Wow,

When you say take care of her physically,

What did you have to do?

Well,

Help her,

First of all,

She was working.

So in every way I had to help her.

Did that include you going to school and then coming home and having way too many chores to do so you couldn't have fun with friends?

No,

I had time for friends,

But always in the back of my mind,

In the back of my head,

There was my responsibility.

So yes,

I had good friends and I had many friends and I was very sociable.

That's great.

But yeah,

But she was always there.

I mean,

I couldn't be free of that.

So you weren't relaxed when you were playing with your friends,

You were to be in the back of your mind,

There was this cloud over your head saying,

Oh,

I gotta get home.

I need to go home,

I need to do that,

I need to do,

Yeah.

And how did you take care of her emotionally?

I can't explain it really because I was a child,

But I had to be okay.

I couldn't make any troubles.

I had,

Because she was waiting and she was tired and she was soft.

So did you feel like you would overwhelm her if you had any needs or wants?

Yes,

I didn't have any.

I never expressed any.

I can understand that.

I remember times when I was about nine,

I think,

Or maybe eight,

I was sent by my mother because she couldn't go in the middle of the night,

She couldn't go to look for cigarettes.

She's smoking,

She's a heavy smoker.

So I had to go in the middle of the night to look for cigarettes for her.

At eight years old?

At eight years old.

Yes,

Yes.

And the only place open in the city,

It was a small city,

The only place open was a bar in which there were drunk people in it.

They knew me because it was a small city.

I knew them,

I knew their faces,

But it was unpleasant.

It was very uncomfortable,

Very unsafe.

Wow.

And still I did it.

That's unbelievable.

Or even going to call the doctor for urgent care in the middle of the night because she didn't feel okay and we didn't have any phone at home.

Nobody had.

Right,

Right.

So I had to cross the town to get a doctor.

So as you became a teenager,

Did your mother's behavior change?

You know,

For the better,

For the worse?

No,

No.

She was always the same,

No.

So did she criticize you?

She.

Or did she ignore you?

No,

She didn't ignore me.

She couldn't really criticize me later on.

When I was a child,

She did.

She did.

When I,

For instance,

One Friday,

Friday is like the end of the week for us.

One Friday,

She went to do her hair,

To the hair salon.

And because her husband,

Later on husband,

Came to visit with his daughter,

I thought of cleaning the house.

When she came back and they got in,

She was criticizing how I cleaned the floor.

And his daughter,

Later on her husband,

His daughter,

She remembers that and she was shocked.

She was older than me.

She was two years older than me.

So yes,

I was criticized,

But later on I didn't let her know anything.

I kept my privacy.

She hardly knew she wasn't involved really.

I didn't share with her my life.

So she couldn't criticize.

So it's interesting,

Narcissistic mothers sometimes are,

Always engulfing or criticizing,

Or they're dismissive and ignoring,

And then some go back and forth.

So it's just interesting that she seemed to take,

Mostly the ignoring route.

My mother actually switched back and forth.

So I can totally relate to you,

Yolky.

So LW,

Can you share what it was like with your codependent mother?

Yeah,

Mine was a different experience.

I definitely would not have been searching for cigarettes and going out late at night to help my mother.

She was so protective over me.

And she kind of tried to make me into a mini-brother.

She would take me into a mini version of herself.

She wanted me to dress a certain way.

She would always say silly things like,

Put on some makeup,

A man is coming over.

When we would go out,

She would want me to wear dresses and high heels,

And like her.

And I always want,

I was a city girl.

Greenwich Village type,

Bohemian.

I wanted to wear combat boots and leather pants.

And my mother had a problem with that.

She would always say,

Why are you wearing such heavy boots?

So it was a different thing.

And I did share,

I shared everything with my mother.

I shared all my hopes and dreams and artistic desires.

And I always felt like I had to convince her that I knew what I was doing.

She would always worry that I would get swept away or taken away from her and swept away into the world of show business.

And I would always be trying to convince her that wouldn't happen and all that.

So I think that's part of what drove me for musical creation and success,

Was just like trying to convince her that I was doing the right thing and following my path.

And it was hard.

It was definitely difficult.

And I was also very codependent,

Very worried about her feelings.

I remember I wrote a song for her when I went away to college.

I wrote a song called,

You Never Smile Anymore.

And just everything I did,

I always had my mother in the back of my head,

Same kind of idea,

Just worrying about her and her emotional stability.

So it's funny how these type of experiences affect us and affect how we evolve in life and the choices that we make.

To have a mother that sort of dismisses you,

As if you really don't matter,

Or one that swallows you up whole to feed all of her pain,

Either way,

It's a very challenging cage to break out of.

So,

Yochi,

What role did your father or stepfather play in terms of your mother ignoring you,

Dismissing you,

Or minimizing you?

Did he ever do anything to stop it,

Or did he just watch,

Did he enable?

Yeah,

He enabled that.

He had a very small role in my life.

Did he ever make excuses for her?

Yes,

Yes,

Of course.

She was always right,

I was always wrong.

If something,

If there was a discussion or an argument,

She was the right one.

Even though it was clear she wasn't,

He always supported her and he loved her very much,

But she was always the right one.

And he was completely absorbed in his daughter's life,

Completely.

So I didn't feel like he was a father to me.

And I don't mind.

I was a fairly independent person.

They knew very little about me.

So who was your go-to person?

Did you have someone to confide in?

I always had friends.

I have friends,

Houses were always open to me.

I had,

I think ever since I had friends,

Their houses were a little bit like mine.

They,

I ate there,

I spent time there.

I,

Yeah,

Because my house was closed for friends.

Nobody could come to visit or to stay.

Why?

That's how it was.

That was actually for me too.

My mom and stepdad hated people coming over.

So I was always going elsewhere.

I don't,

Let me know if,

You know,

I'd love to hear your feedback on this.

I always liked the way the other families operated in my neighborhood.

It always just felt,

I felt so different,

But when I would go there at these other families and see how normal they reacted,

It was both comforting and yet very sad for me at the same time.

How did you feel?

I liked it very much.

It was always better balanced for me to see how they function.

And it also taught me how it should be.

So I understood it's not correct.

It's not how it's supposed to be.

I really understood that.

And I took- You had some wisdom.

That's impressive.

I took examples from them,

Not from my own family.

That's great.

So,

L.

W.

,

Can you share what role your father played in dealing with your mother's,

You know,

Hyper protectiveness?

So my father was a quiet guy.

He went to work and,

You know,

Adam Sandler tells a really funny story about how nobody would ever,

His father would be at work and,

You know,

Once in a while he would call his father at work and you just didn't do that.

Like you just,

Your father went to work and you didn't bother them,

You know?

So my father was like that.

I mean,

He worked and he came home and he didn't say too much.

Seemed to be a very satisfied with his life kind of guy.

I think he enabled my mother in some way.

I think that I'd love to know whose stupid idea it was to not tell me I had a sister.

You know,

They both didn't really own up to why they did that.

It took me a long time to even understand it.

I still don't understand it.

But he,

You know,

Took me where I wanted to go.

I wanted to go to singing lessons.

He took me,

He paid for it.

And overall,

He was a good father,

But very quiet and didn't emote too much.

Joki,

Is there anything you wish your stepfather had done differently?

He was a narcissist himself.

Really?

Yes.

Wow.

Yes,

A big one.

So was my stepdad.

Yeah,

Big time narcissist.

So even if I wished,

It would,

It,

Yeah,

It's,

You know,

It's irrelevant.

It's not because that's how he was.

Can you connect your childhood,

Your narc mother,

Your narc stepdad,

And if it led to any bad decisions you made or how you didn't know yourself and then maybe made a bad decision?

Yeah,

Definitely.

It's about my school,

I mean,

My career.

I always wanted to go to study art.

And ever since I remember that myself,

Art was something I knew I would do.

I think since I was 12,

It was very clear to me.

So the moment I could,

After I finished the military,

Because in Israel you have to serve two years,

So as soon as I finished the military,

The second day I went to art school and I,

Of course,

They accepted me,

Of course.

All right.

And I started to study.

I think the bad decision was not,

After six months in the school,

Amazing six months,

They saw a change in me and they got scared because I became Bohemian,

I dressed a little different,

I expressed myself.

I didn't come home so often because I lived in,

The school was far away from home.

It was like two hours drive.

So they saw the change and they got scared.

At the time I had a boyfriend,

I dated him for almost five years at the time.

Oh,

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And they gave me an ultimatum.

Either I marry him or they stopped paying my school.

Did they,

They wanted you to marry him because they thought it would stop you from changing?

Yes.

Okay.

Because they were afraid I'll take my change and leave me maybe or something and,

You know,

We'd be separated.

They loved him very much.

And as I did,

But I didn't tell him.

I didn't tell him about it.

And we got married and nobody could understand why,

Because I was in the middle of my career.

It was excellent for me.

I was like so happy.

So when you married him,

You were able to finish art school?

No.

No?

Okay.

No.

Pretty much after that I got pregnant and yes,

I continued.

I still studied,

But it wasn't the same.

It was very hard,

The drive and the distance.

And all the time I was tired because I was pregnant and I was probably a little bit depressed because of all the situation.

So no,

No,

No,

I didn't finish it.

I studied,

I did two years,

But I didn't finish it.

So this is one very poor decision.

It took me,

I think,

At least 10 years before I could tell my ex-husband this,

The ultimatum part.

So it was a very poor decision.

And he,

When I told him,

He said,

Why didn't you tell me?

So you didn't tell him that your parents forced you to marry him?

No,

No,

He didn't know.

And that was a big mistake.

I should have told him.

Well,

You know,

Secrets,

You know,

Are,

It's a generational habit.

It was,

I was ashamed because of the ultimatum.

I was very embarrassed about it.

Right.

You were old enough to make your own decisions and yet you weren't being treated that way.

But I was so,

I wanted so much to continue my study that,

You know,

I thought I'll do everything in order to continue.

It wasn't like that.

Right.

So they,

So you were happy,

You were flourishing,

You were doing great.

And then they just put the stop right on it,

Right in the middle.

Yeah.

So,

Which is very common.

When,

Like we said,

Like we said in the beginning,

The mother wound is,

They really don't want you to be happier than them in a lot of situations.

So,

And express yourself and find your true self.

That's right.

But it's wonderful that you're sharing your story so other people can connect with it.

And sort of maybe see themselves.

I have a parallel to that as well.

When I went to school,

So I also knew when I was 12 years old that I was going to do music.

That was my thing.

I wanted to be an artist.

I wanted to be a musician.

That was my thing.

And so when I went to school,

I got into a very prestigious drama school.

And as soon as school started,

I got really scared.

It was very deep.

We had to dig a little too deep.

And I was terrified.

And at the time,

You know,

I was at school,

My mother would call me every day.

What are you doing?

What are you doing?

What are you doing?

What about me?

What about me?

And instead of encouraging me,

She also became scared that I was going to,

You know,

Leave home,

Leave her,

Grow up,

Whatever,

Find my way.

So I actually switched out of that into the music department to just kind of go where I felt comfortable.

Because the drama department was scary for me.

We had to dig too deep.

And I think that was a wrong decision,

Actually.

It's a wonderful example of what dysfunctional toxic mothers can do.

But I'm sorry that it happened to both of you.

And sadly,

Myself and about 850 million other people can too.

So what do,

Yolky,

What do you know about your mother's childhood that may have turned her into a narcissist?

I know probably more than she knows about me.

I believe you.

Yeah.

She lost her mother when she was two years old.

And at the time she had a bigger sister,

An older sister.

Her older sister was four and my mother was two and they had to escape to Russia.

And the mother died.

And the mother before dying,

She ordered my grandfather,

My mother's father,

To marry her sister,

Which he did.

And the aunt,

The mother's sister,

She adopted them.

Practically she was the new mother and she had another child.

She had a child which is a brother to them,

Half a brother,

But anyway he's a brother.

And all three of them and the aunt were in the labor camp in Russia.

And it was very hard and she got sick and she died also.

By the time my mother was six,

She lost her second mother.

Wow.

That is unbelievable and horrible.

Wow.

Wow.

So,

But your mother clearly dealt with a lot,

A lot of trauma.

Yes.

Do you feel sorry for her?

Yes,

Of course I feel sorry.

It was hard on her.

But she,

There isn't any but.

She had her brother and sister and they were like very united,

Even though the relationship there is also very strange,

Especially with the sister.

Yes.

But my mother got married pretty early with my father.

She was 18.

She was a very,

Very pretty woman.

She was so pretty that people reminded me many years later how pretty she was.

Yeah,

I get it.

I get it.

And she got married and I was born.

And you got married in Poland,

Right?

In Poland,

Yeah.

And when I was a year and a half,

There was a possibility for Jews in Poland to leave Poland and go,

I mean,

Leave.

So they went with my grandmother and grandfather and my father's brother and sister to Israel.

Everybody went to Israel.

And her father,

My mother's father,

Stayed in Poland with her brother.

He stayed behind and he didn't leave until he died in Poland.

They didn't want to leave?

No.

Wow.

No.

So ironically,

Joachim's mother and my mother were both born in Poland and our father was born in Poland and they had to deal with the war.

And they were Jews,

So they had to deal with the tough stuff.

And I think that's part of that's part of what molded their their personalities and their actions.

You know,

They didn't really have a stable,

Stable life.

A lot of trauma,

Particularly severe trauma,

Like what,

You know,

Yogi's parents and your parents have experienced,

Very hard to acknowledge and heal from.

And it gets those.

That damage gets passed on and it doesn't make it.

Right.

But if you understand why,

Maybe you can undo some of the damage.

Yeah,

If you can undo that,

Great.

You have to sort of recognize that there's damage in the first place,

Which is hard,

Which is very hard.

You know,

My narcissistic person never acknowledged.

That is true.

That is true.

Narcissists think nothing is wrong with them and they cannot be cured based on everything that I've read,

Cannot be treated or cured.

So you do we just have to change how we respond to them.

So we'll start with you,

Well,

W,

Then Yogi will get to you.

How have you begun to heal and what do you do differently?

Oh,

So much.

Go for it.

So the healing began for me after I got married,

Had my first kid.

I started doing yoga.

And I remember and I remember always thinking,

You know,

Throughout the years,

People noticed that I had this codependent relationship with my mother and,

You know,

Would sometimes ask me,

Like,

Why do you worry so much about your mother and her opinion?

You're an adult.

I did seek some therapy when I was in my 20s.

And then after I went to yoga and I remember there was a yoga instructor that said something that opened my mind right away.

And it was something about how I didn't have to spend time with people I didn't like.

And I realized that I didn't have to spend time with people I didn't like and didn't like the way they were and the way they were behaving.

So I started to read,

You know,

Great books and like the M.

Scott Peck book,

Road Less Traveled.

Great book.

And just really kind of like start my journey on trying to understand human psychology,

Positive psychology,

My psychology.

And and that led me here.

And I'm now like awake and aware.

And I think that's really what helped me heal a lot.

That's fantastic.

It takes a lot of courage and strength.

Yoki,

Can you share with us how you have healed and things that you might do differently than you used to?

Yes,

Of course.

Well,

I don't know if I would recommend what I'm going to say about how I started to heal,

But that was my way.

I disconnected from my mother for a long period.

Did you go no contact or low contact?

No contact at all.

OK.

Yeah.

And that's after I went to therapy and I when I went to therapy,

I was like maybe 23 years old and I didn't go to therapy because I thought something is wrong with me.

I went to therapy because my son,

He was a baby,

He wasn't eating well,

And I was looking for something to to avoid or to do differently in order to for him to eat better.

And that's what started the therapy.

That's amazing.

Wow.

Yeah.

I wasn't aware of the fact that something is not so good happening to me,

That I was maybe a little depressed or I felt I felt like I'm not fulfilling myself or something.

And the therapist mentioned to me after a short while when we resolved my my baby,

My son,

My son's problem,

He mentioned to me,

Did you see how you dress?

And it was a city in the desert,

A very hot city in the desert,

And apparently I wore only black and brown clothes all the time.

And what was that?

What did that indicate?

And why I was young,

A young woman,

And it's very hot.

I was always in black.

And that was not part of my bohemian part.

I was probably in a very heavy mood.

Yeah,

You were depressed.

Probably,

Yes.

So we started therapy.

At the end.

At the end,

He said,

Listen,

There is not much you can do.

You better wrap your package and tie it with a very nice ribbon and let go of it.

Because he understood he never mentioned the word narcissism about my mother.

Never.

Nobody mentioned that.

Me either.

My therapist and neither.

I came to realize only maybe three or three years ago that that is narcissism.

I didn't I wasn't aware of the word.

I remember you mentioned it to me.

You said I think my mother's a narcissist.

Yes,

I was completely shocked because all those years,

Nobody mentioned the word.

And I was in therapy a few times,

Not long,

But a few times when I needed some help.

Anyway,

I decided to disconnect completely and I didn't have any connection with her for the first time.

I think it was two years.

The second time was maybe three years.

And it was much better for me.

The complete disconnection.

I'm sure I believe you.

I believe.

So I don't know if I would recommend it to anyone.

That's right for me.

Right.

And there,

You know,

I've talked about no contact and low contact last two weeks ago.

And,

You know,

I provided a lot of resources as to,

You know,

How you can come to that decision.

It's extremely individual.

It's not for everybody.

And there's many different kinds of low contact.

But if no contact has worked for you,

Then kudos to you for figuring out what works best for you.

What I'd like to ask you both is to talk about your art and how that has helped you heal.

I believe a lot of our create creative potential is squashed as a result of toxic childhoods.

So I'd like for you guys to share how your art and music has helped you heal.

Yeah,

We're going to put we're going to put a link to your Web site,

Too,

So people can see your art,

Because it's very,

Very much connected to who you are and to your story.

And it's really for you listeners out there.

It's great stuff.

You're going to love it.

So go ahead,

Yocha.

You tell us first.

Well,

I think I probably I didn't choose art.

I think art chose me.

Probably because uncertainty and not having stability was a very I was comfortable in those places,

Unstable and uncertain places,

Because I grew up uncertain and unstable.

So art is,

You know,

Creation is not a very certain place.

You start you have a blank page.

It's white.

There is nothing on it.

And now do something.

I think for me,

It's my familiar place.

So and also maybe a healing place.

Not maybe definitely.

It's both.

Yeah.

So it's part of my healing that I can't recommend.

Also,

I mean,

If somebody is creative.

Yes.

But anyway.

Yeah,

I think that was more than I chose it.

The art chose me.

It's funny,

I have a couple of friends who had pretty traumatic upbringings themselves.

And they've you know,

They're they're not aware that they need a lot of healing and they're not aware that they're as unhappy as they are.

It's not judgment.

It's just that I happen to know that they're both have some artistic ability.

One can sew and the other can decorate and they don't use it.

And I think it hurt.

It doesn't allow them by,

You know,

By not pursuing that in a more fulfilling way.

They don't ever achieve their full potential.

So I think I think that my character of serving because I have a lot is realized in my art.

And when I started like working,

I just did things which later on I connected and I understood why I'm doing it.

But while I was doing different things in art,

I didn't know why I did it because I wanted to do it.

And only later on I realized the why.

For example,

I work a lot with light.

Yeah.

And the light and shadow.

And with the fading in my art.

And that's part of,

You know,

Observing and having to say stuff.

Some of it is clear.

Some of it is hidden.

And it's part of probably of my personality of how I grew up.

I'm sure it is.

I'm excited for our listeners to go visit your Web site and and see how wonderfully you are able to express yourself.

L.

W.

,

Can you tell us about,

You know,

Your art and what you do and why you are so good at it?

Yeah,

Mine was a thank you.

Mine was a different approach.

I mean,

So Yochi is an artist.

I'm a musician.

The the what happened to me was my mother always wanted me to play the piano.

It was just a young lady should play the piano.

It was just an important thing for her.

And so she signed me up for lessons.

I didn't love lessons,

But I did love playing the piano.

And I just found myself being good at it.

And then one day I noticed that I could sing and I could play the piano and sing at the same time when I was like 10 years old.

And the reactions that I got,

The attention that I got,

I think was what informed my decision to pursue music more.

I think because my mother was so codependent and I was constantly being observed and watched like a hawk.

I enjoyed I enjoyed the attention.

I think that's really what happened.

I enjoy the attention.

And I sort of became one of those attention seekers through music for many,

Many,

Many years.

And I think,

You know,

It's not unusual for people who go into show business to have come from some kind of fucked up background where they get a lot of attention or they don't get enough attention.

Either way,

It's going to drive you somewhere.

So for me,

It drove me to getting more attention and and to wanting to sing more and play more and perform more and be in front of people.

And also that made my parents very happy.

They loved showing off with me when their friends would come over.

I would be at the piano and I would entertain.

And I think,

You know,

It was weird because,

You know,

This is going to be a really weird analogy,

But there was a movie called Tangled.

You remember that movie Tangled?

It was an animated movie that a friend of mine,

Glenn Slater,

Wrote the amazing lyrics for the songs.

And there's a song called Mother Knows Best.

And in that song,

The mother,

Who's not really her mother,

But she's a witch who wants the once Rapunzel to stay in her tower so she can,

You know,

Take the hair for her own benefit,

Sings a song about how mother knows best.

Listen to your mother.

And it was under the guise of kind of an evil reason.

And I related to that.

And I was like,

Oh,

My God,

That feels like me.

That's so weird.

I know my mother wasn't evil.

She meant well.

But her desire to keep me under her thumb so she can make sure I'm safe in quotations really was damaging.

And I think that it's sort of what drove me to to do what I do with music.

Now,

I just I love creating music and I do it for the right reasons.

But I think that's what drove me to that direction.

We love your music.

Thank you.

You know,

Your style sort of evolved as you get further along in your healing journey.

Yes,

Absolutely.

My style has evolved a lot and I just I have a better relationship with my decision and with the keyboard and with the keyboard.

Yes.

I was talking to the keyboard today.

It said really dig to the new you.

The keyboard was tight.

So,

Yoki,

I have a favor to ask you.

Yes.

Will you come on again?

Of course.

Wonderful.

Yes.

You're an excellent guest.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

Your story was incredible.

First time I'm talking practically.

It's the first time our stories,

You know,

Probably it's really true.

I mean,

It's been,

I want to say,

12 years since we knew about it,

Since I found out about you.

And this is the first time we're really talking about it.

So,

Yeah,

It's something good always comes out of something bad.

Yes.

That's how we should look at it.

Definitely.

Well,

We are going to say goodbye.

Good night and good luck.

That's not my line.

Yes.

And I hope our listeners will go to your Web site and check out your art because they will be blown away by what they see.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Adios.

Catch you next week,

Folks.

I love you.

Bye bye.

We shall stay sometimes we.

Is this a bitter.

Am I falling together?

Keep on.

Keep on.

Keep on.

Keep it on.

Keep it on.

Keep on.

Reviews

Oh man the AHA moments just keep coming! I could resonate with several things Yoshe said but especially that she never had friends over to visit or spend the night! It was the same for me and I just remembered that. So many things are becoming harder clearer for me now. Great podcast yet again ladies! 💜

Excellent! Really inspiring life story!Thanks for sharing it !