Steppin' It Up - A Surprising Reconciliation

There is significant truth behind the statement "everyone is fighting a battle you know nothing about". A conversation with my stepsister reveals how toxic parenting, favoritism, manipulation, and emotional immaturity can fracture family ties - usually beyond repair. My stepsister was the scapegoat and I bounced back and forth from golden to lost child. All the assigned roles have their poisonous ripple effects. It may help to first check out the episode titled "1 single revelation every BIG

Transcript

This is the stuck stops here your source for humor healing and Honesty,

I'm LW know live.

I am Tammy Rosita Let's go And Welcome to the stock stops here season 5 episode 1 Tammy tonight.

We have a special guest.

Why don't you introduce her?

Yes,

And it is My stepsister Yeah,

That one too We should have the Adams family intro right about now.

I like that.

Yeah so so a little background and In case the audience is wondering,

Uh Meredith is smarter and more sarcastic than me.

So be warned But I'm a virgin I'm a newbie on this so I'm a little nervous I might not be as quick-witted as I normally am It's okay.

You could be slow-witted like my husband.

So I'm used to it.

I can handle it.

Okay,

So She has graciously generously and courageously agreed to share some of her experiences the ironic Part of this is you know,

We had we lived lived parallel yet separate lives With a lot of similarities and we are clearly,

You know victims of toxic parents and the triangulation and the gaslighting and the denial that all goes along with that and As we've seen and listened to other people and all the stories that I've read and books that I've read relationships are fractured our perspective is warped both towards ourselves and how we see,

You know our siblings and And you know,

I've Certainly learned a lot from Meredith listening to you know her story and her side of things and what she went through and She's quite remarkable.

She has three amazing daughters And she also looks ten years younger than she is so I hate her for that too And I would like to extend a Booze and drugs.

Yeah.

Yeah,

That's it.

I always say the drunker you are the better I look So a hearty Hearty soulful welcome to Meredith.

Well,

Thank you for having me here welcome,

I think that the thing that surprised me most Well,

The story was the summer right Tammy,

That's correct.

I mean,

That's an interesting story That Tammy came to our house this summer to spend a weekend and I hadn't spent Really much time with Tammy in a long long time.

I thought she I thought she hated me I thought she wanted nothing to do with me at all and then they agreed to come and we were so excited because we loved them and I think more wine started pouring in the And the conversations loosened up and Tammy told am I allowed to swear should I not swear it's where we We encourage it.

We see fucking fucking blew my mind like literally Blew my fucking mind like I've never been blown before Wow Could you yes,

Could you be more specific?

Tammy came out of the closet with so much information about Her past her feelings writing a book about her talks of upbringing and Having the podcast but beyond that like I had No idea Literally no idea what she was going through when we were growing up I thought that that side of the family my dad my stepmom Tammy and my stepbrother Really just all got along very well and were happy and I was like miserable with my mother and hating life.

It was Mind-blowing and then Reading the book and hearing her talk about thinking about committing suicide and how she felt as a kid just was like How did we not know that and and then it was sort of sad like I guess there was a sad period like We could have bonded over that growing up That is true.

And one of the things I hold myself responsible for is The severe what I would call severe compartmentalization of my life So everything you know is was in its place since it was in its box and the actual only time I was truly authentic and At peace was when I was engaging with my daughters and giving them what I didn't get outside of that I Became somebody else.

No,

I would and I Viewed,

You know,

I had a very war perspective I viewed I Had the same views of life as I did when I was two three four five and nine so,

You know I looked at life through the eyes of a bullied anxious child.

So everybody was out to get me and And I don't ever nuts and I because I was so busy licking my own Wounds you don't I didn't have the capacity to see that other people have them,

Too Yeah,

So that's a that played a big role in me keeping,

You know,

My distance honestly from from me for myself and from everybody and that you know I missed out a lot because of it but 13 13 14 on that's when you sort of separated Right,

And that's my that's what I actually funny that you said 13 14 Because my first thoughts of suicide were somewhere around 12 or 13 years old So,

You know you when you go emotionally numb You can't you don't find joy either you feel nothing so and that that will affect and That did will affect and did affect everything so,

You know That's why you know,

You thought I hated you.

Well,

I certainly probably gave that impression that I was Well,

I certainly probably gave that impression that wasn't the goal.

I was just licking my own wounds that what I wasn't thinking that Yeah,

But that's how it came across.

So it shows you we are when we are so wrapped up in our own misery We have no idea what's going on outside of us.

But you you say you compartmentalize you were good at that.

I was not I was reactive and You know fighting with my parents constantly.

I was I guess the opposite of you Will you do you consider yourself the scapegoated child?

Do you think I was I mean the fact that you say that is amazing because That's what I say.

I Was am the scapegoat any sort of anger that was going on in the house Anything that was happening with stress or frustration?

My mom would take out of me.

I mean,

I remember my stepdad Fighting with my mom.

I might have been seven or eight and him looking at me and saying this is your fault This is all your fault My mom was Physically and verbally abusive more verbally than physically Definitely unhinged and Yeah,

Anything I mean my brother somehow I have a I had an I have an older brother kind of they thought he was sensitive I remember them saying Oh Meredith's tough as nails.

She can kind of handle it take it was I guess their impression of me But there was something about me With my mom that brought out So much anger and people used to say jealousy and like what that doesn't make sense like I don't even she just was She would just say awful awful things to me but that if something she was stressed about something They would turn on me and it would be my fault.

She was upset even to this day She's upset at Eric and she explodes at me.

She's upset at the housekeeper and I'm around she'll explode at me She's upset at my stepdad and she explodes on me So and how do you you know,

How did you handle it then and how do you handle it now?

As a teenager I was I was Scared rebellious because I was scared shitless of her.

I was not a kid who would say Fuck you and leave the house Right.

I don't even know that I would say fuck you But I would fight with her and I would say things like this is not a dictatorship You know when I was 15 like this is not a dictatorship,

But I was also Petrified petrified of her but then the crazy thing is It was my only place that I knew like I wasn't raised feeling like I Could trust someone I felt comforted.

I felt like someone had my back.

I felt completely alone in this big house,

But I was too afraid to leave it and break off from her because I Guess that's all I knew as love and all I knew from that I ever got so there was a fear.

I guess I felt weak that I couldn't just like Totally push it aside like there was still a part of me that would like still come back and cling to her like We would fight and I'd called dad on the phone and say come get me He's like,

Alright,

I'm gonna come get you and then I would chicken out like I couldn't leave the house No,

I mean,

You know,

That's they I believe they call that trauma Bonded,

You know where?

You know,

It's it's awful But it's all we know right?

So what are we without it?

Mm-hmm When you're that young,

How can you you know,

How can you know any different?

You know your parents are supposed to protect you and and make you feel safe and Then you felt alone and you didn't really know where to turn but your instincts were correct Your mom should have made you feel safe when you were with her and your instincts kept telling you that that's why you you probably Didn't want to leave you like maybe she'll come around and she'll do the right thing.

No,

And that's a trap We all fall and we think if we're you know If we yell enough or we're perfect enough or we morph ourselves enough or we accomplish enough that they will become the people that we Deserve and it never happens.

Maybe that's why I dated such fucked up men in my 20s And thought I could change them and fix them.

That was a waste That sounds about right because we talk about a toxic Generational dysfunction and we we sort of carry what we learned into our relationships So it makes sense.

You just kept repeating the pattern Yes Yeah,

You first it's so funny because they put me in therapy,

You know It was like you've got to fix yourself get into there.

So they did to me Well,

We've all we both went to what's-his-name Yeah Therapist.

Oh wait,

Please Go to the same Where it gets fucked up Tammy when I win My dad went my stepmom went my mom win and my stepdad went all to the same Guy,

Oh my god I actually forgot all about that.

Oh My god,

It's amazing what you can block out.

I forgot About that Wow If the two of you would have been able to connect well Yeah,

And why why didn't he now that now we're talking about this why the hell he was making shit loads of money from all you But knowing how I felt so alone he could have said why don't you turn to your?

Steps,

Why don't you talk?

I've got this.

I Don't think I would have had the wisdom No,

He why didn't he tell us?

Yeah Good shit Wow you know,

Maybe We but there was just so much.

I mean together would it have been?

So repulsive like I epically So overwhelming like how do you put this much crap in the same room?

Like,

I don't know how you do that I mean that the amount of money he must have been making of these two blended families together Toxic blended families and seeing everybody in it because I think my brother win I'm sure yours.

Oh wow.

Yeah I'm sure you know,

I I forgot all about that.

That's eight fucking people a lot.

I Wonder if he kept any notes or anything.

I know he's not alive anymore,

Right?

No,

No,

We sadly passed away I think in 2007 full of too much I think yeah,

I think he just like it we killed him He couldn't handle it he had to drink drink or yeah,

We might have killed him.

Oh my god Well,

You know what's interesting when we talk about like how how you guys didn't connect on this You were living kind of parallel lives we had a an episode where my sister came on to the show and She and I had only met when I was 40.

I didn't even know about her.

She was a yeah,

She was My father's daughter.

He had been married before he married my mother.

I didn't know about it And there was the episode called untwisted sisters from the same mister.

That's right Oh,

That's right and it to think of all the time lost where I needed a sister I could have had a sister and all the time lost Just breaks my heart,

You know and to think about the fact that the two of you could have Maybe possibly found some common ground and soothed each other It's just so it's such a shame.

I was you know angry.

I felt rejected by Tammy honestly I was really hurt and angry that and always said I you know I wish like I have three little girls now like I'm so happy.

I have three little girls They're gonna have each other as sisters.

I make sure that they have a really close bond,

You know I'm a very different mother than my mom was and I Missed that and I knew I missed it.

You know what?

I mean?

I wanted it so badly from Tammy Sure,

But I just felt super rejected from her but not knowing Why I just thought she just didn't give a fuck and didn't like me.

No,

I was definitely I I was the you know,

I I switch roles.

Sometimes I was the golden child and sometimes I was a lost child So that's that's pretty You know Isolating,

You know,

So I that I being Self-isolating was what I was used to to me.

She was the golden child,

You know,

She was so good at sports She was really good at field hockey.

My dad was just from what I saw I thought super proud of it You know,

She was like a champ Reading her book must have really I guess it really did blow your mind.

Oh my god,

Like Yeah,

Like like if viewers could see me my mouth was agape like oh my god Everything I read I was just because your world was rocked everything that you thought you knew About your relationship with Tammy wasn't true.

It wasn't I mean it's a way you finding out you had a sister all these years later Same thing mouth agape.

What the fuck?

You thought you knew something,

You know,

You looked at something you're like this is blue this is obviously blue and then somebody turns to you and says No,

It's green.

But it actually is green and they show you why it's green.

You're like Like it's like finding out the world is round and not flat It's right I actually want I would I am dying to hear about yeah how You are able and I want to hear the process to power your kids your daughters differently You know,

You didn't decide it 33 years old.

I'm gonna parent differently whenever I have children So there had to have been a process and quite an impressive one,

Which I'd like you to share if it's okay with you know I I Always knew what I was missing and I always knew what I wanted I was pretty that was pretty clear to me even at a young age.

So even in my Teens and 20s,

I would say when I have children,

I'm gonna break the cycle.

You know,

I was putting enough therapy that Even though the reason they put me in therapy was to be a good little girl to them what it really did was give me tools to figure stuff out and and You know think things through Amen to that so there was always a part of me that said,

You know,

My whenever I have children,

I just want them to feel safe and loved and Like I have their back and protected so that It's just sort of how I went into motherhood And then the rest obviously when you get needy look I had three little girls in three and three-quarter years So I had three in diapers and three under the age of three Wow and so,

You know you're thrown into it in the thick of things,

But I I Did a lot of reading I was very adamant about respectful parenting read books on respectful parenting how to treat them respectfully but to the caveat of like I'm not that crazy mom that over-explained like I've seen your parents And you're right on the money not that my opinion matters what I'm saying is it's you can tell that there's a lot of Perfect combination of logic and love but that's it.

I mean really love like I just adore them like I love them and I Show my mom showed no affection like I would I would be four I would go into her bedroom and give her a peck on the cheek while she was laying in bed And put myself into bed like there was no like we we just did bedtime with like a six year old a four year old and a two year old like It's crazy town,

But we do it every night.

Like I hug them.

I cuddle them.

I tell them I love them You know amazing.

Yeah,

All that kids want really right to know that.

Yeah,

I I same thing same here And I I mean I still do it in there 20.

I mean it's getting a little weird but I With your girls,

I love your relationship with your girls.

I love your girls and I Definitely look to that and that's something that I try to emulate as well.

Like they are so loving with each I mean they fight of course,

But they're so loving with each other.

They hug each other.

They kiss each other Right on to each other,

You know,

They're very sweet with each other.

That's that's what you want minor Like they're very close.

They're best friends.

It's amazing.

I mean,

It's getting a little crazy on lockdown,

You know They literally lose their mind like I go to get a gallon of milk and they literally you think I just stabbed them in And I like honestly if I killed a puppy in front of them That would be better than me leaving the house because I would at least be there with them while I kill that puppy Like that would totally be fine that I named a puppy because I was in the house with them but god forbid I went to the corner to get a gallon of milk and like It's just like somebody shot them Bubble Guppy in front of them and blew everything up.

Oh my god.

I remember that Bubba Guppy I kept singing it wrong and they got mad at me They're still singing Bubble Guppy songs Well,

I also decided I was gonna parent differently,

You know,

I grew up my mother was very codependent and She was very loving.

I mean she adored me,

But she just was so Like it was too much and she just didn't want to let me go She didn't want me to grow up,

But she really wanted me to get married.

I don't know why she had this very traditional Idea idea that when I'm 18 I can get married and I was like what?

I'm not what I'm not even gonna have children like I had no interest but she was it was such an important thing for her and but she was also just very codependent with me and relied on me a lot and I just felt Choked I felt like I didn't have any Freedom to make my own choices and I decided that I was actually gonna give my kids the freedom that I didn't have,

You know and You know,

We're very close and we we have fun together But I I try to you know Give them their space and not you know overburden them with my opinions and how I think they should be and you know The idea of getting you know,

Or your fears,

You know a lot of I think what we talked about Your mother had a lot of fears a lot of know she's always very afraid.

So I think that's you know She passed those fears on to you or if you were next to her like a blankie and nothing bad.

What happened?

Yeah,

I think she was also afraid that I was going to have a better relationship with my sister had I known I had a Sister so I think that's part of the reason why she really yeah And my sister also didn't live in this country.

She was in a different country So it would have been difficult,

But I definitely would have embraced having a sister I do now But do you think that so I you know,

I look at my life.

I look at my teens.

I look at my 20s I look at even my 30s and a lot of the mistakes I made and I look at my life Tammy you and I talked about this like How our lives could have been really different had we had parents that were really supportive of us and Didn't didn't there wasn't so much garbage and noise and fucked up miss that You know,

I really went out into the world like pretty fucked up,

You know I mean,

I think if you talk to friends in college,

They wouldn't be like,

Oh,

Yeah,

Meredith was that totally together one They'd be like,

Oh,

Yeah Same here same here.

Yeah,

I Often think about like what choices I would have made that were different what direction I would have gone in There's funny.

Yours came from a loving place and that still did that to you where where ours came from?

Well mine came from just such a horrible.

I just never pictured You know what Tammy had described happening,

You know,

But my mom being just Awful and abused.

I mean the stuff that she said to me really the stuff that she said to me really just shouldn't ever be said to anybody.

Wow.

Yeah,

I mean.

Her piece of shit was literally said to me.

You will amount to nothing,

You're nobody.

Oh my God.

You're a piece of garbage.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I mean,

It was,

You know,

It was,

You know,

It was weird,

Not weird,

It was hard,

You know,

To hear,

You know,

The kind of verbal abuse that Meredith took,

You know,

And in some ways I always felt like,

Why?

You know,

They never called me,

You know,

A piece of shit.

So,

You know,

A lot of times I would think,

Well,

She has it so much worse,

I shouldn't feel so bad.

Huh.

You know,

Those are some of the things that I used to think that,

You know,

I don't have any,

You know,

I don't have any right to feel bad because,

You know,

She has it so much worse.

And so you sort of,

You know,

You never give yourself any compassion.

What did you think about how they treated me,

Dad and,

Your mom?

The older you guys got,

They treated you better,

In my opinion.

I think when they were younger,

I think,

You know,

My mom was pretty tough.

Yeah.

She was pretty tough.

You know,

She was,

You know,

If you picture,

You know,

She had the emotional maturity,

You know,

Of a toddler.

So you throw her into this,

You know,

And she also had multiple personality disorders.

So you throw her into a situation with,

You know,

Stepchildren,

You know,

Children that she really wasn't equipped to have,

And then you throw stepchildren.

So if,

You know,

Meredith was a scapegoated child,

You know,

She required some attention.

And when,

You know,

She acted out when she didn't get it,

And so did my mother.

So you had a six year old and a 40 year old acting the same way.

Six year old at least had a good reason.

So yeah,

I remember her not being very mature about this.

Yeah.

And yeah,

I'm sure that added to your chaos,

Which is unfair.

I mean,

You know,

The stuff that happened,

It's weird because to my dad,

So this is the weird thing,

Right?

Everything that you think about my dad,

The things that I've heard maybe out in the world about my dad as a person is it's strange that I view him,

I let him get away with everything because he was the only one that showed me any sort of love and affection.

So even to this day,

You know,

My husband would be like,

You're fucking,

You're your dad,

You know what I mean?

Like,

Why do you let him get away with this stuff?

Why do you let him do this?

Why do you let that happen?

And I hold stuff in and I don't tell him how I'm feeling.

I used to argue with him.

I used to fight with him when I was a teenager,

But as I got older,

I sort of let bygones be bygones,

Which is hard because I have a lot of stuffed out and feelings about it,

But because he was the only parent that ever showed any sort of nurturing to me,

It's hard for me to cut him off,

Where I've been able in the past to cut my mom off.

You know,

When that makes sense,

You have a,

I feel like,

You know,

You're honoring that loyalty for the moments that he was,

You know,

Good to you.

As long as it,

You know,

It makes some sense.

That makes perfect sense.

He was like the safe parent.

He was the safe parent,

But he was not,

I mean,

He got mad a couple of times.

No,

Not more than a couple of times.

He gets super pissed at me.

You know,

And I remember him saying things like,

This is my family,

You accept them now or you're out,

You know,

Things like that.

Like there was definitely harshness to him,

But some,

I guess as I got a bit older,

He got a little bit softer with me in college.

That's great,

You deserve it.

But then it's like,

He does things that upset me and I just don't talk about it.

So it's like,

All these feelings are sort of stuffed down.

That's not fair to you though.

That's not fair to you.

Yeah,

I don't know how to resolve that one.

I don't know how to come to terms with it.

I don't know if it's worth it because he's gonna be 80.

You know,

I have little kids,

So,

You know,

It's the same with my mom.

They have a relationship with their grandchildren that's separate now from me.

And it's not something that I want to ruin.

So for me,

I just,

You know,

For my mom,

It's a little different.

It's a little carrot I can hang in her face.

Like you being a crazy bitch,

You're not gonna see them.

But,

Because she's just,

She sees them a lot and she's obsessed,

Especially with my oldest,

But that's the whole other weird story.

Cause she can only love one child at a time.

But anyhow,

With my dad,

You know,

They don't see them that much,

But it's sort of like,

I don't know,

It would break,

I don't know,

It sort of breaks my heart.

And then,

You know,

We had a good relationship as I got older,

But limited.

It wasn't the great amount of support that I needed,

But they were there for me.

But that,

You know,

That's one thing I wonder with you,

Tammy,

And your sort of,

Cause what did,

Oh,

I was on the phone with them the other day and we were talking about what I don't even remember.

And I said,

Well,

The only one I talked to is Tammy.

And so your mom sort of gave a look and dad goes,

Oh,

How is she?

You know,

Because you don't have much of a relationship with them now.

And so it's surprising to me.

It's also surprising because I thought you had a good relationship with them growing up,

Which still blows my mind,

Even saying this right now.

I thought you were super close to your mom.

I thought you- I was her slave,

You know,

Physically,

You know,

With her hearing impairment.

And I was a parentified child.

So I was her slave and we were enmeshed and it was completely toxic and unhealthy.

And so,

Yeah,

That might've looked like we were close.

Yeah,

It did.

I don't know if it's cause I just came from such a place that was so crazy.

I don't know if to other,

You know,

Other people looking at it would have been like,

There's something wrong there,

But I'm curious about if I can ask you a question,

Why,

How do you feel about having such a limited relationship with them?

I know you say you need to do it for your health and to keep you sane and not to get caught up in the garbage but how would you feel on the other side of it when they,

You know,

God forbid in a couple of years pass away cause they're older?

That's a great question.

And you know,

It is a thought that will often send me into what is now termed,

I now understand this now,

It's called a shame spiral.

So it's when you do that,

Shame,

No,

No,

No,

No,

No,

No,

No,

No,

No,

The whole,

It's there,

Whether you ask me or not,

It's there.

It is very challenging to live with that every day.

But I get,

It is awful for me,

Probably because there's just so many toxic memories for me to be in their company for a long time.

And you've never said anything to them about it?

They're not people?

I don't think that they would see it that way.

And- Wouldn't you feel better saying something though at least?

I only feel better getting results.

Getting things off my chest to them would just result in an argument.

You know,

My mother is,

When you really understand narcissistic personality disorder,

She is a very empty,

Very bitter woman.

There's nothing you can say or do to fix that.

And every book that I have read on narcissistic mothers,

You have to decide whether you want low contact or no contact because full contact is toxic.

So that's not an option when you are a recovering codependent and I am,

I'm not reformed.

I'm recovering because I don't think I'll ever be over.

So every book says if full contact makes you miserable,

Constant contact makes you miserable,

You have to come up with some form of limited or not.

Right.

There are no options.

And dad's an enabler and I can't,

The more what happens with people like that with talks parents like that,

The more independent you get,

The angrier they get.

And they will do anything to sabotage that.

But why would you and not with me or- What?

Why are they,

I guess they didn't treat me necessarily like that.

That was your relationship with them.

Right?

As the older you get,

The better they treated you and the worst they treated me.

And why?

Because I was codependent and easily manipulated.

These,

When you have what's called cluster B personality disorders,

And that can be any combination of narcissism,

Antisocial personality disorder.

And those are all on spectrums.

When you have any combination of that,

Any kind of everything about their life,

Their relationships is manipulation,

Control,

Guilt trips.

There's nothing beyond that.

There's no authentic connection.

There's no real love there.

Not for me anyway,

There isn't.

They're not capable of it.

They're only mad I don't give them the attention or by me being distant,

I'm awful,

I'm wrong.

They don't even think that they play a role in it.

It doesn't even enter their mind.

I'm just this bad person,

I'm a bad daughter.

And I'm only good when I cater to serve,

When I cater and serve to their every whim.

And growing up,

They were no different than a toddler.

So he would come home from work and just start bad day or whatever,

And just start screaming at my brother and I.

No reason,

No reason,

Just cause.

It was like kicking the cat.

You have a bad day at work,

Come home and you kick the cat.

We were the cats.

And then- Isn't it funny that I thought that was the golden house and that you guys were happy and I was fucking miserable at the other house.

There is not very little that I look back on in my childhood with any happiness at all.

So- At all.

Yeah.

It's crazy.

So yeah,

It's true.

I'm not looking for pity or sympathy,

But that is true.

Not that,

It's just like,

I was there,

Not daily,

But I was there.

And I just,

I saw none of that.

Well,

My mother was different than your mother.

Her abuse was definitely more covert.

Yeah.

So,

Which is actually very toxic as well.

It doesn't feel that way.

You know,

Hers was always a look,

A comment,

A sneer.

She would go from engulfing,

Where she had to control every little thing I was doing to ignoring.

You never know what you are getting.

And if I did anything to trigger her narcissistic rage,

My dad would get upset.

I,

With the world,

Dr.

Carol McBride puts it best,

The narcissistic mother,

She is the son,

Everyone else in her life is the planet and they all revolve around it.

I mean,

That stuff I see.

I mean,

Obviously I'm not blind to her and who she is.

I've seen the,

And it's been frustrating going out to dinner and her feeling like us all talking and her getting very grumpy and moody and pouty because she wasn't following the conversation.

Or her just,

You know,

Her famous,

What does she say?

She's so easygoing.

And I always laugh when she says she's so easygoing.

I'm like,

You are not so easygoing.

That is not true.

You are not.

You are the opposite of easygoing.

You know,

Even when I was down there with Kiki,

We went to Florida last year and I wanted to get her some,

My daughter some frozen yogurt.

And she was pissed off.

She just didn't like driving around having to look for frozen yogurt.

She got like really upset.

And here I have my,

You know,

Five-year-old in the backseat.

So there's definitely stuff I saw about her,

I guess contributed to that and not being an easygoing person,

But I didn't know the depth or level of it by any means.

Right,

Right.

You know.

Do your kids notice it?

Do your kids notice it?

Mine,

They're really young.

I think the better question is if Tammy's kids notice it.

Mine are way too little to pick up on anything like that.

They notice,

You know,

I fought,

Unfortunately I fought with my mom in front of them and that's been unfortunate.

So they've seen that and that's not good.

But you know,

They're so young that their memory,

You know,

Their short-term memory is not,

Not gone so fully evolved yet.

But no,

They don't pick up on that stuff.

And honestly,

Like they haven't been around a lot.

Like we had to go up when they were in Massachusetts,

Go up there a lot.

And when they were moving,

You know,

They said they'd come up here,

But they never did.

I think my dad came up once.

So we haven't seen them a lot at all.

You know,

My kids really don't know them well.

But I think your kids,

Tammy,

Probably- They did,

You know,

Growing up,

You know,

We lived nearby and you know,

Things,

You know,

Everything was great until my kids started developing their own lives.

And then things changed,

Very typical of toxic parents to,

You know,

Squash individuality,

Independence.

And then,

You know,

Then it became work for them,

You know.

And you actually have to have,

You know,

To be involved in kids' lives,

You gotta work around their schedule,

You know.

And they don't like doing that.

They wanted us to just show up at their house,

Tell them how wonderful they are,

Give them lots of attention and leave and do that every day.

It's just not realistic.

Yeah.

And that's what they want.

I can see that with my mom as my oldest gets older.

And I've seen it with my brother's kids are much older than mine.

And I've seen,

You know,

Her as they've moved and become more independent,

Her not being capable of,

And that makes me worried too,

That seeing both sets of parents do that,

Not being able to retain,

You know,

While they're really little,

It's great,

But I don't know how long a relationship will be retained.

But then I joke that they'll probably be dead by the time,

I had my kids so late.

Right.

So,

I'm sorry,

I fucked up.

Okay,

I know.

But you tell the truth and I love it.

You know,

My kids have a pleasant relationship with them,

But it reflects,

You know,

The relationship my kids have with them reflects their limitations.

You know,

They're only capable of so much.

Yeah.

And they just,

It's just,

I make sure they see them once or twice a year and that's the best.

That's the best I can do.

My dad.

That's.

I remember dad being good with yours as babies.

They were great when they were little.

Yeah.

They were fantastic.

Yes.

And then they develop personality.

Right.

Individuality,

A mind of their own,

A life of their own.

And that's how it goes.

That's,

I mean,

That's what's supposed to happen.

They just don't like it.

What do you think of their relationship now?

Do you think they're happy together?

They seem happy.

Why do you think they work?

That's a good question.

And my answer,

They deserve each other.

Well,

He's still an enabler and she's still a narcissist,

Right?

Yeah,

And that it'll never change.

As a matter of fact,

It probably will get worse.

Yeah.

You know,

I have adult children.

I would never,

You know,

One of the things that really put the nail in the coffin for me was three or four years ago,

I was making plans,

You know,

I always hated,

The older I got,

The more I hated spending time with them,

But I would make myself do it because it's the right thing to do,

They're getting older and all that,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah.

Wait,

Sorry to interject.

Can I just say,

Like,

I just thought you guys all had bagels together on Sunday and hung out all the time and like watched football games together.

Like,

I just thought like this was all normal and happy.

Thank God the truth is revealed.

The fact that you thought that and it was not that is so painful,

I think,

Because you maybe felt like you were excluded from the fun.

But meanwhile,

Now you're finding out the truth of what Tammy's experience was like,

And it kind of aligns with yours.

They would have been so fucked if we figured this out a long time ago and ganged up on them,

Tammy.

Well,

What it is is they,

You know,

They,

You're right,

They wouldn't be talking to you right now because once the more I started standing up for myself and keeping my distance,

The angrier they got.

Yeah.

You know,

So four years ago,

Maybe it was five.

You know,

Some,

It was definitely within,

It was considered recent,

You know,

Five,

Six years ago.

I sent a text saying,

Oh,

Maybe we can come over on Sunday.

And I always had to make plans with them.

They never reached out.

They wanted me to chase them.

That's part of it.

Which is annoying because they say that nobody reaches out to them,

But then they don't call and they don't,

They never do that.

You have to do that.

That's,

Yes,

I know.

That drives me crazy.

The hypocrisy is nauseating.

Yeah.

So I get a text back.

The exact text was,

Tammy just invited us over.

What do you want me to say?

And at that moment,

A light went on saying,

Oh,

They plot and they plan manipulative responses to get a reaction out of me,

To make me chase them,

Beg them,

Whatever it was.

And it took me a few minutes to realize what was happening.

What did you do?

I sent back a question mark and she said,

I don't remember what her response was,

But I remember seeing her a few days later and she had sort of this cheapest,

Somewhat guilty look on her face,

Like she had been caught.

See,

I would have fucked with them over that one.

I would have sent a text back just to mess with them.

I probably would do that.

I probably wouldn't have started a fight now.

I would have said something like,

What kind of bullshit are you planning is probably what I would have said now.

Back then,

I was hardwired to freeze,

React later,

Freeze,

Suppress the rage,

Overreact later.

That was the cycle I was in.

I wonder the difference.

So for me,

Somebody who reacts in the moment and says what's on my mind,

Which comes in handy,

But can also be a hindrance in other areas,

You have to learn to manage that,

Of course.

And you holding it all in.

Yeah,

I have,

I'm dealing with it better,

But I am a bubbling cauldron of suppressed rage.

Yeah.

You know where we need to take you?

Yeah.

We have those places in New York now.

Oh,

With sledgehammers?

Yeah,

You go in with sledgehammers.

I would wanna put pictures of them up all over the room.

Totally.

You should do that next time you come to New York.

So,

Yes,

I,

It's,

And I get better,

But I always say I'm a recovering rageaholic.

I'm not a reformed.

Until it's gone,

I'm not reformed.

And it's just not gone.

It's less.

Because you have less contact with it.

And I manage it better.

I pull out my toolkit from all the books that I'm used to when I get triggered by something or,

And I have a lot of,

I do have a lot of memories that play over and over again,

Which I'd like to stop,

But that's part of the PTSD.

I'm like a fix-it person.

Now that's probably sometimes,

You know,

I wanna go in and fix things.

So.

I mean,

It's probably better that you react rather than suppress it,

You know?

I mean,

But if it becomes an all out verbal brawl,

That's probably not good for you.

You know,

It's probably some happy medium.

Yeah.

Some things can't be fixed too.

It's,

It's,

Yeah.

There's some things you just accept,

You get to a certain age and look,

You know,

I could say,

Oh,

My mommy was so horrible to me.

My,

You know,

My life is so terrible.

I mean,

Honestly,

People are surprised I'm not like a drug addict in a corner or in a mental hospital the way I was brought up.

But you also get to a point of my anger towards them is just not worth the energy anymore.

You know?

That is true.

That is true.

You gotta move on and you gotta fix yourself and you've gotta make your life happy and you've gotta make your life as healthy as it can be.

And,

You know,

I have a family now,

You know,

And I'm very blessed to have them.

And that's where I put my energy.

To sit around with,

You know,

I have a cousin who just still blames her sister and my mom are sisters.

I mean,

Her mom and my mom are sisters and they kind of grew up with the same toxic,

Abusive father and they're sort of similar.

And she's,

You know,

In her forties and still holding onto it.

And it's like,

Just let it go.

You know,

Take responsibility for yourself.

You're not losing if you take responsibility for yourself.

You're not gonna get what you want from them.

I'm never gonna get,

I fucked you up.

I raised you horribly.

I was a horrible person.

The reality is if I ever bring anything up to my mom,

Most of the stuff she doesn't even remember.

Like she sort of blocked it all out.

She's probably had blackouts in those rage moments anyhow and doesn't even remember them an hour later.

So even if I were to confront them and let's say they're even going to say,

I'm sorry,

I apologize.

I'm not even sure that would matter to me.

Really?

The damage is done.

It's like,

It's,

I just need my space.

I just do.

It's,

I don't even want anything from them anymore.

I don't.

You fixed yourself with,

You know,

The research you've done and writing your book,

That must have been cathartic and doing the podcast and it's always cathartic because,

You know,

I call myself recovering,

Recovering codependent,

Recovering rage,

A hollis,

Recovering clusterfuck.

You know,

The term clusterfuck is the actual definition is a disaster,

A disastrously mishandled situation.

Did you get that from Webster's?

How did,

Where'd you get that?

Yeah,

I Googled it.

Actually there's no Webster,

It's just Google now.

No,

Of course.

You know,

So,

You know,

I'm going to go when clusterfuck came into the vernacular and what the Latin root of clusterfuck was.

I know.

So,

But I can only give you the Merriam Webster root.

I don't know the Latin root.

But the bottom line is I'm recovering.

You know,

I,

You know,

Sometimes I get mad that I'm not reformed,

That I still get,

You know,

Relapse,

But that's not productive.

Yeah,

But alcoholics,

Right?

They're always recovering.

They're never reformed alcoholics.

Right,

And I think defective behaviors and toxic,

You know,

Coping strategies are just as addicting as alcohol and,

You know,

Cocaine and gambling and any other visible disorder,

You know?

So a lot of these defective behaviors that I had and defensive responses,

Those are my addictions.

Those were my go-tos.

I mean,

I got married in my forties.

I had my kids in my forties.

This wasn't because I was such an evolved,

Perfect human being and I was living the dream in New York City and just so many men were at my feet and I was partying every night.

It's obviously I was making horrible choices and mistakes in life,

You know?

So you make enough of those and then you finally,

Hopefully knock on wood,

Figure it out.

But I totally get that.

You know,

It took me a long time to get where I am today.

For sure.

Well,

And it's,

You know,

It's,

I know how difficult it is.

So I don't,

You know,

I'm not sure if you get enough kudos for it.

I mean,

Everyone I have on here that,

You know,

Every guess,

Whether I'm step related or not,

Every guess that's on here that's,

You know,

Hit rock bottom and comes back better than ever,

You know,

That's,

You know,

There's nothing braver than that because you have to give up all your go-tos.

Whatever those toxic strategies,

The defective behaviors,

The non-substance addictions,

You know,

Separate from gambling,

Eating disorders and alcoholism and drugs.

It's,

You know,

Your bad behaviors are always right there with you.

You don't have to go to a store to get it.

Oh yeah,

I had my bad behavior smacking me in my face for a long time.

I mean,

That's the one thing I wasn't like,

Okay,

That's where I was angry is that my inability to trust,

Deal with people,

My anger,

Just,

You know,

Sometimes sounding like my mother,

Things like that were the things that pissed me off.

But it's like hitting rock bottom not just once,

Many times,

Another bad relationship,

Another bad relationship,

You know,

Another bad relationship.

I mean,

How many of these do you go through before?

I mean,

I went through a lot.

I went through a lot and it was painful.

It was painful to see,

It's embarrassing to look back on some of the stuff,

It's pain stuff.

I understand.

Work I was able to throw myself into and that was sort of an escape.

And,

You know,

I was off on location a lot and didn't have to deal with people.

But,

So that was an area,

But even interpersonal relationships there,

You know,

How I dealt with people and crew and manage stuff,

That was difficult for a while too.

It took a lot of work to try to figure it out.

You know,

I feel like I'm a better person now than having been married for as long as I have and having my kids than I certainly was.

You know,

I think when I met my husband,

I sort of had just come from a like really hard place and was trying to pull myself out of it.

Like another really bad one,

But sort of knowing what needed to be changed.

And obviously he's a fucking saint to deal with me anyhow.

I mean,

It's great that you were able to reach that point.

You know,

Some people are still in it,

You know?

So to be able to reach that point where you've evolved,

It's great.

I also feel like I'm the best version of myself at this point.

My mother passed away in 2017.

And I remember like five or six months after she died,

I felt this immense freedom.

I suddenly felt like this relief,

Like,

Oh my God.

Yeah,

I just,

I was so,

There was so much,

The codependency was,

I was suffocating.

And I just felt this immense,

I mean,

I was there with her.

You know,

My brothers and I,

We were there,

And sister were there till the end,

But I just felt this immense relief.

I needed to be let go,

Let go,

Let the bird fly.

You know,

And I was already like 50,

You know?

I mean,

Come on.

So it just,

I'm not embarrassed to say that I felt this sense of relief because I really needed it and I deserved it.

Yeah,

I mean,

That petrifies me.

I would never,

I mean,

I would never want my girls to feel that way about me.

Yeah.

Agreed.

Same.

I mean,

How awful.

Yeah.

But you think about it,

The fact that you even think about it means they won't.

You know,

That never entered any of my parents' mind.

Oh,

You know,

What kind of parent do I want to be?

You know,

What will my kids say about me?

They don't think about that at all.

Right.

No.

So the fact that- Is it a different time or just who they are too?

Both.

I think both.

You know,

Both.

I think,

You know,

Think about how your mother was raised.

Yeah.

Does it explain,

You know,

Why would she even have the,

You know,

What was she taught?

Yeah,

No,

It was,

You know,

My grandmother was an amazing woman.

I had a great relationship with her.

She was pretty beloved by a lot of people.

My grandfather was more tyrannical for sure.

And there were five of them.

And there was a lot that they,

Yeah,

There was a lot of shit there.

I mean,

It definitely was,

That was one thing I was always aware of,

That it came down and I wanted to break the cycle.

That was always in my mind and in my head from an early age.

That's amazing.

Yeah,

Mine too.

It took me a long time.

Well,

The first thing is like realizing that there is a cycle,

You know,

Like for me,

I know when I realized I was like behaving,

I was treating my husband,

My kids like my mother,

Treated her husband and us.

I just,

I was like,

Wait a minute,

What am I doing?

I don't want to do this.

I don't want to be like this.

So realizing that there's a cycle to break is the first step and then actually breaking it is amazing.

Yeah,

So you fall back into shit sometimes.

Of course.

Yeah,

I mean,

For sure,

It's definitely way less than it used to be,

Way less.

But you know,

That's where the judgmental side of me comes back in is,

You know,

If I lose my temper or something and I'm like,

Oh,

I should know better,

Come on.

Look,

You know,

If we had better parents,

Tammy would have been a neurosurgeon and I would have been a Supreme Court Justice.

What would you have been?

A Supreme Court Justice.

I would have been an entrepreneur.

Yeah,

No,

I,

Yes,

I would have done.

Tammy,

You would have been a writer.

Music and words.

I would have been music and words.

That's what I would have done.

But that makes us angry.

We talked about that,

Tammy,

That we don't have anger about that,

We do.

That is probably the one regret that I have a hard time getting over is,

You know,

Not really.

But then again,

If you look at it,

You know,

Let me step back.

If I just wish that I had known myself better.

Sure.

But at the same time,

If you wanna talk people who are doing what they love and it's still not being enough,

Take a look at Anthony Bourdain.

Yeah.

Kate Spade.

Robin Williams.

Robin Williams,

Tiger Woods,

Elton John.

Most people suffered from depression.

So that's a mix.

Maybe,

You know,

What was causing the depression,

They were,

You know,

Doing what they loved and what they were good at.

Yeah.

Just,

You know,

You just never,

What I'm saying is that's not always,

You know,

The answer.

I mean,

I've,

That I've built.

That's very evolved of you.

It still fucking pisses me off though.

No,

It's- That's my anger point.

That's my- No,

I definitely have my moments for sure.

Me too.

Me too.

I definitely do.

But,

You know,

There's gotta be,

You know,

Part of the toolkit is acceptance too.

So that has to be worked in between the little tantrums.

Yeah.

It's true.

It's true.

I mean,

You know,

I set out to be a director and I became a director.

I mean,

I am happy with that.

It's a hard industry as a woman to do and be,

But I feel like I could have gone further with better tools in my tool chest.

Not that I'm done with it.

And now I'm in a better space and re looking at that area and redoing,

You know,

With producing partners and working on stuff and hoping this time around,

You know.

But yeah,

I do think that I could have been a lot in a different space with better tools in my toolkit for sure.

For sure.

So,

You know,

What,

You know,

I always like to ask every guest,

You know,

What advice do you have,

You know,

For people who are struggling with toxic parents and rock bottom and where to go from here and healing journeys?

I mean,

You gotta put it in the work.

You just,

You've gotta say it's enough and you've gotta put in the work,

Whether that's books for you or a therapist for me or just being evolved and cognitive enough about enough.

Well,

You have to get to the point where you say this is enough and I need my life and want my life to be better.

And then it's icky and yucky.

And it's not easy and you've gotta put in the work,

But it can pay off.

I mean,

What did therapists say?

You do something new for 90 days and it becomes a habit at that point,

Right?

Correct.

You gotta just stick with it.

Don't give up.

If you wanna make changes and if you need to get away from those toxic people like you had or limit it,

You know,

You've gotta do that.

You gotta take care of yourself too.

But you gotta own it.

You have to be responsible enough to say,

Stop blaming everybody else,

Own it and start to make some changes.

That is true.

Accountability and awareness,

Everything.

Yeah.

Use everything.

Well,

You have been a fantastic guest and I'm not just saying that cause we're steps.

Yeah,

Right.

I'm not just saying that cause I'm afraid of you.

Yeah,

Right.

And I could kick your ass still.

Yeah,

Probably.

We're right.

My baby would,

My two year old.

Oh yeah,

For sure.

I'm more scared of her than anybody.

They love their auntie Tammy though.

I know,

I'm looking forward to seeing them again.

This summer I'll be coming to visit.

Yes.

All right,

Let's wrap it up.

Thank you,

Meredith.

Thank you.

It's been a pleasure.

So will you come back?

I'd love to.

This was fun.

All right.

It's cathartic.

Yes.

And congrats on achieving such a good point in your life.

Thank you.

You have been listening to The Stuck Stops Here.

We are not licensed therapists.

We are not life coaches.

We are not certified in anything.

Nothing.

I just want to be a resource for those beginning or on their healing journey.

Reviews

Thank you Tami for sharing your story so openly!! Its reassuring to know that I am not alone while walking a simular journey and that a better future is indeed possible. I appriciate all of your podcasts!

Tami: Thank you for letting me be a fly on the wall to listen in on that conversation. That was another example of … no one really ever knows what others are going through. Neil