Seeing The Light With Gina Defa

Coming from a home filled with alcoholism and abuse, Gina knows the grit & grace it takes to not just survive, but to move into a life filled with peace. She trusts that her immediate instinct to follow her intuition (which she calls her light) has been the catalyst to every success she has been blessed to experience. Her greatest passion is to help others find, and trust, the light inside of them — no matter their past.

Transcript

Welcome to the Stuck Stops Here,

A podcast devoted to cycle breakers.

We want to celebrate and empower those who have woken up and decided that toxic,

Generational dysfunction can end with you.

My name is Tammy Atman and I hit rock bottom in 2014.

And during those moments of despair,

I decided change was my only option.

Emotional abuse,

Both covert and overt,

Is contagious and leaves invisible scars.

The next generation deserves better than what we got.

Join me and my amazing co-host and producer,

LW,

As we have raw and real conversations infused with bad words and humor,

Designed to inspire awareness,

Acceptance and strength.

We are not therapists and have no clinical training.

You are not alone.

Healing does not happen in isolation.

Together,

All of us can break the familial chains of shame,

Guilt,

Fear and blame.

Our Stuck can stop here.

Welcome to the Stuck Stops Here.

This is your friendly host,

Sometimes unfriendly,

Tammy Atman.

And today I am privileged to be speaking with Gina DeFey.

Did I say it right?

Yes.

Beautiful.

Beautiful.

So I'm going to read her bio and also talk about her book.

So starting with Gina's bio,

After one term in the Air Force and a brief stint as a stay at home mom,

Gina has built a successful leadership career in the insurance and financial services industry.

She also serves in the nonprofit arena,

Speaking on leadership skills and principles for various organizations.

Her proudest success,

However,

Is being a mother to her three adult daughters coming from a home filled with alcoholism and abuse.

Gina knows the grit and grace it takes to not just survive,

But to move into a life filled with peace.

She trusts that her immediate instinct to follow her intuition,

Which she calls her light,

Has been the catalyst to every success.

She has been blessed to experience.

Her greatest passion is to help others find and trust the light inside of them,

No matter their past.

Gina now lives in Olympia,

Washington,

With her two cats,

Annie and Sophia.

So welcome,

Gina.

I want to talk about your book,

The Parakeet Drawing.

And this is pretty incredible.

She describes her book like this with a mom who wasn't ready to relinquish her party lifestyle.

Eight year old Gina was thrust into a world of alcoholism,

Drugs,

Sex and molestation.

Abandoned by daily parental guidance,

She was forced to fend for herself and navigate a world that brought more darkness and security.

As her childhood was scraped away bit by bit,

Gina held true to something within that guided her.

A light that burned brighter once a brief interaction with a stranger connected her with the truth.

Everything will be OK.

The Parakeet Drawing is a powerful memoir about the ripple effects of a small act of kindness and how it helped one little girl find the strength within to save herself.

So,

Wow.

Thank you for being here,

Gina.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

And I'm excited for you to share some of your wisdom,

Because having somebody survive the kind of trauma that you have survived and then turn it around into something so good and so productive.

Sometimes I lose the words to describe how inspiring people like you are to me.

So if you could share,

I tend to go chronologically because I like to people to hear what it was like as a child.

Your aha moments along the way,

And then how you transferred or moved from victim to survivor to thriver to inspire.

So can you start with whatever you're comfortable sharing your early childhood and some of those traumatic events with us,

Please?

Sure.

Sure.

Thank you.

So,

Yeah,

My pleasure.

So,

You know,

As children,

We don't really know what right from wrong or normal is other than from our parents.

Right.

And the environment that that we are in.

And so I just was kind of going along with life.

I'm an only child,

Which is also really important for the story because I,

I,

I was the only one there like me.

You know,

I didn't have a brother or a sister like,

Is this is this normal?

You know,

Or are you mad at mom?

I didn't have any of that.

So when my.

Yeah.

When my parents divorced,

You know,

I was raised in Utah.

It was the early 70s,

Which is not a lot of divorce.

May I ask how old you were when when they got divorced?

I'm sorry to interrupt.

I just like to get the,

You know,

The age down.

No worries.

No worries.

I was eight.

I was eight.

So I think I was around third grade,

But I didn't know anybody else whose parents were divorced.

I mean,

It just was really rare in Utah at that time.

And so I didn't think much of it because it was just what we were doing in our household.

But then things started to change in the house.

You know,

I was always very close to my dad and he moved out and my mom was there.

And I never really had a close connection with her.

I don't I don't remember her hugging me or playing with me or helping me with homework even before all the trauma started.

She just she just wasn't present really with me.

She was in the house,

But she didn't interact with me much at all.

And so once the divorce happened,

It was it was soon after.

And I don't know timeframes,

But I would say probably within a couple of months,

Maybe even a couple of weeks that my to be stepfather moved in my mom's boyfriend.

Now prior to that,

Can I ask you,

Did she cook meals?

Did she know?

Did she make sure you went to school?

Did you anything?

Were you self parenting and self raising yourself?

Yeah,

My dad did a lot of that.

I mean,

My mom would make things.

She would make dinner.

But I and I'll tell you honestly,

Tammy,

Because of the trauma,

I don't have a lot of memories.

So I can understand.

Yeah,

Yeah.

So I can I can remember I mean,

Like I remember sitting on my dad's lap and him peeling oranges for me after dinner,

We would eat an orange for dessert.

And I can remember him asking me about my homework or looking at,

You know,

You color a picture at school and he wanted to see those,

But I don't remember her doing any of that.

You know,

I don't I don't remember that at all.

Two weeks after the divorce.

Yeah,

So a few weeks after my dad moved out,

I'm thinking weeks,

It might have been months,

But my stepdad started showing up and now he cooked and I remember that he did cook and so you know,

He actually parented me more than my mom did,

You know,

He would ask me questions about my homework and he was more that daily presence at that point,

My dad came every Sunday and picked me up and,

You know,

And I had that connection with him.

But again,

I,

I know it's odd in these days to think about that.

But that really just was the culture then,

You know,

The women kept the children and were supposed to take care of them and the fathers,

You know,

Picked them up on the weekends or had their week with them or whatever that was,

My dad was always very loyal to that showed up on time he's so he's always been a constant of structure in my life.

Right.

But yeah,

He,

He was removed from the daily interactions with me.

And so,

So my mom and my stepdad were there.

And,

Yeah,

It just things just changed very quickly,

You know,

And as a child,

An eight year old,

You know,

I'm trying to wrap my head around what's going on,

Where there,

You know,

Where there was consistency my dad came home at the same time all the time,

You know,

They didn't always come home at the same time.

And so,

You know,

And then we moved,

We moved from a neighborhood in a house to more of into the city and an apartment complex.

And so,

The,

You know,

And I was,

I was always in that house so I you know had now I had no friends I was in a different school.

I was in a different neighborhood,

And they were just not they wouldn't come home,

You know,

And sometimes they wouldn't come home for days.

My stepdad was a truck driver.

And so,

You know,

They,

I would,

When it first started happening I would come home from school,

And sometimes they were home,

And if they were there was usually a party going on,

Or they were already drunk,

Or I would come home and they wouldn't be there,

And they might come home at six o'clock,

And they might come home at midnight because they'd gone to the bar or they might be out on the truck and not come home for days,

But I never knew which it was going to be,

You know,

If I walked in the door and they weren't there.

I just didn't know what,

What that meant and that honestly that was probably more terrifying for me than anything else to be,

You know,

A little girl I was probably nine by the time that was going on.

And back then there was no cell phones there was nobody to call.

No,

No,

No,

We had we had the phone on the wall.

You know with the cord on it.

And,

And,

And yes,

Yes,

And this will even date it more you know if they,

If they needed to make a phone call from wherever they were,

And it was a long distance phone call because back then you paid for long distance.

And they would have the operator call the house and ask if it was okay for the call to be charged to that number.

And so I would answer the phone and the operator would say,

You know,

Jack and Georgine want to make a long distance call to Nevada,

Will you accept the charges and,

And I would,

You know,

Again I'm a little girl and I would say,

Yes,

But can you please tell them to call me Can you tell them I'm home alone can you can they hear me,

And the operators would say thank you for accepting and hang up the phone,

You know,

And,

And I would just,

I mean that those were those were the scariest times for me because I didn't know if they were coming home and I couldn't understand why they were calling somebody in Nevada and charging a call without telling me where they were when they were coming back.

So how long would you be alone for.

Um,

I mean the longest I remember being alone was five days.

At nine.

At nine.

I don't have any words for that.

Yeah,

And not knowing right not like I didn't know if they were dead.

I didn't know if they were on the truck.

Unless I got these calls,

Which happened often I'd get the calls often that they wanted to place a place a collect call and needed the charges accepted.

So then I would know they were somewhere but I wouldn't know why they weren't calling me letting me know.

Yeah,

Believable.

So,

Yeah.

How did things change as you became,

You know,

As you got to high school and early adulthood.

Yeah,

Well,

You know,

From from age like eight to 13 I lived with them.

And,

And,

And had these interactions and it got really bad,

You know,

They would have the parties and my stepdad started molesting me and my mom was there when,

When those things were happening.

So I didn't have any protection from anybody.

They would leave me with neighbors,

You know,

I used to just cry when they would come home about being left for so long and so then they started leaving me with people that they met at the laundromat in the apartment complex or at the swimming pool.

And,

And that was terrifying in itself and so I had that time that eight to 13 where that was my life and,

You know,

And it was just horrific,

You know,

I just didn't know what was going to happen from day to day.

And then at one of these parties which the parties were scary too because there were just so many adult things that were happening that I didn't understand.

And so I would hide,

And these parties.

And I,

My mom had a table she liked it she would cover it with this big tablecloth and I would crawl under it and color and just try to distract myself and be hidden from all of these adults.

And at one of these parties,

A man came under that table and taught me how to draw a parakeet,

And I won't go into a lot of details about it,

But that's the catalyst for the book,

And where my life started to make a change because I wasn't sure because of the circumstances I had been in for the five years.

If being under this table with this man was a good thing or a bad thing I didn't know if I was in more danger being under there with him or being out in that party.

And,

And he,

He just took time and he saw me this little girl that was scared and in this really bad situation.

And he changed my life.

By spending that hour with me and coloring with me and teaching me how to draw this parakeet.

And the next day,

I remember waking up and thinking,

Okay,

Well,

If there's people like him in the world like if he's here there's got to be more of those,

You know,

There has to be more nice people,

And I also thought,

I want to be one of those.

I don't want to be like these people I have been around for the past five years.

I want to be like this man and make a difference for people and let them know they're seen.

And so,

At what age did you have this moment,

This aha moment?

I think I was about 12 or 13.

I was,

I was in the seventh grade.

Interesting.

Yeah.

And so from from there I asked my dad if I could live with him,

And he said of course you can and scooped me right up and.

And so I got out of that situation.

And when I moved in with my dad and my stepmom,

You know,

It was,

It was just a different kind of chaos she had three kids.

I didn't know what sibling rivalry was you know I was like walking out of a war zone into,

You know,

A home in a neighborhood again and I was in a family,

But I didn't know any of them.

And they all pretty much knew each other,

My dad and my stepmom were just moving in together at the time and so it was me and my dad moving into their house.

And so you just had normal chaos that you would have from that situation but nobody was was trying to,

You know,

Help us become a family.

And my oldest step sister had gone through her own trauma recently and my stepmom was very very very preoccupied with that.

So,

You know,

Not to say that there was anything abnormal there,

There was just as it was a different kind of chaos.

And I was just so happy to have a safe place to live.

And I was just so happy that my dad came home every day there was food in the fridge I didn't have to,

You know,

Be scared and worried about abandonment.

But I also didn't have any healing right I nobody knew really what I had been through and so I stayed there until I was 18.

And I was in the military,

And just kind of fled like I just need to get away from all of this and and started my life you know I was like okay I'm an adult now and I'm going to go make a great life.

I still had a relationship with my mom and my stepdad,

But it wasn't good you know it was the,

They,

You know,

They wanted to know what kind of grades I was getting on my report cards or.

I didn't even think I didn't really see them but my mom would call she would be drunk and she would call and especially after I left my dad's house.

She would call me in the middle of the night and and just scream at me,

You know,

Are you fatter than me.

Yeah.

Do you make more money than me.

You know,

Things like that and and and so when I was 21 I was pregnant with my oldest daughter I was in the military.

She was doing that and I,

It was like two o'clock in the morning and I just said to her,

You know what I can't do this with you anymore.

I am trying to have a life you know I'm married I have a job I'm having a baby.

I,

You can't call me anymore like this I have to sleep,

I have responsibilities I have to get up and take care of.

And,

You know,

If you ever want to get clean and sober I'll be the first one there to help you.

But until then,

Don't call me anymore.

Don't,

Don't do this anymore.

And so in some ways Tammy was really freeing for me to stand up for myself and to make that decision,

But it also started my pattern of running away.

And so when my stuff would get really uncomfortable like that I would just be like I don't need you,

I don't need this and I'm just going to forge my own path.

And in many ways it worked out really well because I was,

I always say was,

I've been surrounded by people who made decisions that were not helpful for me.

And so I was part of equations of people's decisions and yet I was really impacted by them.

And so now as an adult I just wasn't going to rely on other people's decisions anymore I was going to make my own and forge my own path.

And,

And it worked really well in so many ways I was able to raise my daughters and my you know my marriage I was married almost 20 years and so when I got divorced I was a single parent for many years after that and I had a great career and great relationship with my daughters.

And just a lot of I was always focused on the positive I've just always been like that for that one man,

You know,

And I had to go through my own sets of therapy to really deal with the trauma in pieces and writing the book was an amazingly success for me with all of that it was kind of like the icing on the cake after 30 years of bits and pieces of therapy to to write the book and,

And to be able to have some closure on that.

And you would,

I can't remember exactly the way you asked this in the beginning but kind of what got me to this place.

One of the things that's always happened with me.

And I've always equated it to that five years of hell,

You know,

Five years of chaos I just never wanted to be in that situation and so from my 20s to my 50s,

I've always had people,

You know,

Say to me,

Oh gosh I can just be myself with you,

You know,

You're,

You don't judge I can be open with you and,

You know,

You have perspective and you,

You help me and,

And I've always just thought well,

That's a wonderful gift and I hope I continue to do that for people.

But I've always equated it to when you've lived through that kind of chaos and you just don't want it anymore I'm very have a lot of perspective with people like,

Okay,

So you're coming to me and you're upset about something and so you're complaining about it,

But let's really talk about what the real problem is.

And,

And let's solve that so you can go on and have a peaceful life.

And the more I started realizing that that that was more of my gift,

I wanted,

I want to help other people with that so I want to write books,

But I wanted to write the parakeet drawing to really share.

This is why I can help.

This is why I can have these conversations because I've walked through it,

I understand what it's like for life to,

To be dysfunctional and whether it's from people creating it or we're creating it ourselves,

I know exactly what that feels like.

And if I can be an advocate for other people or an inspiration,

Then that will be a life well lived.

Can you tell me what led you to write the book?

What was it rock bottom?

What was the point that you knew you had to write this and why?

Yeah,

It's actually kind of a funny story.

I,

So I raised my,

My daughters,

My three daughters,

Especially my youngest two,

I have twins.

And for my divorce happened,

They were they were fairly young,

About 10.

And so I raised them through,

You know,

Middle school and high school and then into college.

And that was just my mission.

You know,

I didn't have a good mom.

And so my mission was I was going to be a great mom.

And my oldest daughter when the divorce happened was leaving for her first year of college.

And so I just wanted to break all of these patterns.

And that's where my head was down and focused.

And it also consumed most of my decision making in my life was about,

I have to work,

I have to make good money,

You know,

I want to help people at work.

But I've also most importantly,

I've got to take care of these girls.

So everything in my life has been about giving and taking care of other people.

And when my last twin,

They graduated six months apart.

And when the last one was on the stage,

She touched her diploma.

And I immediately felt a presence come over me.

I'm a Christian.

And I,

I heard God say,

Well done,

You did it.

And,

And I was saying,

Well,

Hang on,

God,

Can we focus on Amara?

Like I don't think she's on the stage.

Like it's her moment.

And he was very insistent.

No,

You did it.

And now it's time to rest.

And I did not understand that.

And over the next six months,

I had an overwhelming feeling of you need to rest.

There's other things coming,

You need to rest.

I went through some forgiveness workshops in my church,

Which I tried not to go to and ended up there anyway.

Right at the time,

My mom was dying.

I and I haven't really haven't had a relationship with my mom for 30 years.

Meaning you have no contact with her?

Nope,

No contact.

No,

A card once in a while,

I sent her a Christmas card every year,

Every once in a while,

She would send me something.

But no,

I saw her at my grandma's funeral,

You know,

20 years ago,

But really hadn't talked to her.

And then I started getting the phone calls that she was really sick,

And she was going to die.

And,

And I was able to forgive her.

And I was able to forgive her.

You know,

The day before she died,

I was able to have a conversation.

She couldn't talk,

But I was able to tell her and free gosh,

Such a freedom from doing that that,

That I had been fine carrying that around before I was like,

I'm totally cool that I haven't forgiven her like it's never gonna bother me.

But God knew that I needed to go through that process.

And so from the time Amara graduated to my mom dying was about six months.

And just the work he did in me and rest,

Rest,

Rest,

There's more coming.

And I'm not a restor,

You know,

But it was that realizing I had raised my kids,

I had created a great life for myself and for them.

And that it was okay for me to let go of that.

And now rest,

Knowing that there would be more work coming.

And so a year after she graduated from college,

So it was six months after my mom passed away,

I was doing dishes.

And I heard the voice again,

It said,

You're going to write a book.

And I said,

Well,

I can barely write a sentence God,

So I don't know how that's gonna happen.

And he was like,

Nope,

You're gonna tell your whole story.

Well,

I hadn't,

I had never told the whole story.

I had told bits and pieces of it,

But I hadn't told everything chronologically,

This has been my life.

And,

And he was pretty insistent.

And I had a friend that had written a book.

And I called her and said,

Lauren,

You you're the only person I know,

Who's written a book.

And she said,

And I just started my own press company.

And let's do it.

And so 2020 was a tough year for everybody.

For me,

It was a wonderful year.

It you know,

I went from being out and about and taking care of stuff all the time to being on quarantine,

Like everybody else alone in my house with my cats,

Working on a computer and then writing my book every night and on the weekends and and I'm more of an extrovert and and 2020 I loved I loved I loved having that time to just sit and write and and get it all out and share it.

So can you share that's how it can share how journaling and therapy helped you heal.

Yes,

Yes.

So I've never thought of myself as a writer or even as a journaler.

But when I am in my highest states of anxiety,

When I am going through the worst times,

I reach out to God and I and I journal and I write and you know,

A lot of times it's like,

Here's all the things I hate about my life.

Here's all the things that are awful.

And just getting it out is so helpful.

Going to therapy helped me speak it out,

But also learn how to not dwell on it.

So sometimes the writing it down.

When I look through my journals,

I see a lot of negativity and and dumping it and then thinking about it.

And so getting it out was good,

But then also being able to talk to someone who's been in the hospital for a long time.

And so I think that's something that I've learned from my own experience and about the realities that life isn't always perfect and life isn't always positive like I want it to be.

And learning the tools to cope and to know,

Okay,

You know,

I've gone from being in a mental ward with anxiety,

Wow,

Having to be Yeah,

Having to be put,

But having to be in a mental ward with anxiety,

Wow,

Having to be in a mental ward with anxiety,

Wow,

Having to be put,

But having to be in a mental ward,

I think is one of the most important tactics to use.

I know I can identify and if it keeps going,

I know I need to call my therapist,

I know when I need to get on medication.

You know,

And I it's no different than I think if you had a cold,

You know,

You know,

When you have a sniffle,

And you know,

When your throat hurts so bad,

You know,

You're going to have to be in a mental ward.

And so that's what I think is important.

So what advice do you have for people that you know,

Maybe are just beginning or in the middle of their healing journey?

Yeah,

I think giving yourself grace that it's okay to go through it.

It's scary.

But going through it is what what that cause the dysfunction.

And,

You know,

I it's,

I've said my whole life when when people like I'll give you an example.

If there's rock music playing,

It sends me into panic.

Any like 70s early 80s rock music terrifies me because that's what was going on at these parties.

Oh my,

I can just picture that that's horrible.

Yes,

And it transports me back.

And so when I'm in in places like you might be having a lot of fun with your friends,

And then all of a sudden the song comes on that is this trigger for you.

And I've always said so I can either smile through this knowing that inside I am freaking out,

Like I just feel like a bomb is going to go off in here.

And I'm super uncomfortable or I can tell these people I have to leave and and now I have to explain myself to them and they're super uncomfortable.

Like to me that's there's no win either.

Either I'm making you feel really bad and uncomfortable,

Or I'm feeling really bad and uncomfortable.

And being able to just get it out and say to people,

I've had trauma,

And I have triggers.

And,

You know,

I might look great on the outside,

I might look like my life has been really perfect,

But it hasn't.

And this song is freaking me out.

And I'm going to go in the other room and you guys continue and when I come back in,

Can you put on some R&B or something that I can be in the room with?

Right?

So,

So figuring out how do you maneuver through those situations of your trauma,

And just be honest about them.

You know,

I also say like,

I don't,

I've never thought of myself as a victim.

I'm not a victim.

I neither just things that happen to me.

You know,

They happen.

And when I can deal with them in reality and say they happen,

But here's all the really cool things that have also happened to me.

You know,

Am I a victim of happiness then too?

You know,

It's just life.

Very well said.

Very well said.

Yeah.

So,

Yeah,

I want to just give people your website.

I'm going to put it in the show notes,

But I want to make sure people are not looking their show notes.

They can go and run and buy your book.

It's ginadefa.

Com,

Ginadefa.

Com,

But there's no Y.

Ginadefa.

Com.

I'm also going to put additional links in the show notes because it is people like Gina that are making this world a better place.

And I am grateful to have people like her be brave enough to come in and come on the show and share their story.

So thank you,

Gina.

Is there anything else that you'd like to add that maybe I didn't,

A question I didn't ask or insights that,

You know,

Maybe I didn't cover?

I want to make sure that you say everything that you want to say.

Well,

Thank you,

Tammy.

I think the biggest thing that I'd like people to take away from the book,

Because I do think we live in a world where we see the trauma.

I want people to see past that and see the man that taught me how to draw the parakeet.

And that random act of kindness and that hour that one person spent with me,

I have no idea who he is.

I've never seen him again.

I don't know who he was,

But he completely changed who I would become.

And we have the power every single day to be that for another person.

And just that awareness as we maneuver through life,

You know,

To give people a smile,

You know,

I always say little things,

Buy somebody a cup of coffee,

You know,

See people,

Just see them,

You know,

And we just never know what an impact we could have.

And I believe those are the things that change the world.

That is true.

Sometimes we're so focused on our own pain and trauma that we don't realize we could so positively affect someone else.

Yeah.

Well,

Thank you for highlighting that and being so articulate.

And I hope everybody runs and buys this amazing book,

As I found it incredible.

Thank you,

Gina.

Please come back and visit,

Because we could use more of your wisdom.

Yeah,

I would love to Tammy,

Thank you so much for the opportunity to share my story and to just be part of the mission that you've got too with your podcast.

I really appreciate that.

This is my life's work is to have people like you come and show the world how it's done.

I love it.

We need more of that too,

Right?

Yes.

Get unstuck and move forward.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you,

Gina.

And we'll be back next week.

You have been listening to the stuck stops here.

This is LW Nolai.

Join us again next time as we continue getting unstuck from generational emotional abuse and breaking free from toxic generational behavior patterns.

Reviews

Thank you 🙏

Wow Gina what a story of survival and overcoming the trauma and abuse. It’s heartwarming for me to see what you have accomplished through so much adversity. Congratulations on the life you live and how you got to where you are now. Blessings. 💜
Tammy & LW I’m struggling reviews after the upgrade. I did a review on the previous two podcasts and poof just like that they were gone!!!! I wanted to say great way to start off Season 5 and it’s great to have you back encouraging us to live our best life!! Many thanks. 💜

As insightful as ever! So lovely to have you back, I’ve missed your wise words and humor. Thank you🙏🏼