Guilt & Shame Are Not The Same (Season 4)

Shame is often referred to as “the toxic cousin of guilt." Guilt says, “I’ve done something bad.” Shame says “I am bad.” Shame may show up in some of these ways: feeling inferior, defective, flawed, worthless, phony, and unlovable. For codependents, shame can lead to control, caretaking, and dysfunctional, nonassertive communication. Shame creates many fears and anxieties that cause us to sabotage ourselves in work and relationships. Awareness and compassion are empowering anecdotes to shame.

Transcript

This is The Stuck Stops Here.

Your source for humor,

Healing,

And honesty.

I'm LW Noly.

I am Tami Reseda-Atman.

Let's go!

Take back your bags,

I got myself a plan.

Take back your bags,

Cause I can barely stand.

And if I can't stand,

Then how can I walk?

And if I can't walk,

Then how can I run?

And if I can't run,

Cause I'm trapped inside.

The cage you built around my mind.

Oh,

Shame busted through and took off my ear.

This is season 4,

Episode 6.

The name of this episode is Guilt and Shame Are Not the Same.

Painful feelings are by their very nature temporary.

They will weaken over time as long as we don't prolong or amplify them through resistance or avoidance.

The only way to eventually free ourselves from debilitating pain,

Therefore is to be with it as it is.

The only way out is through.

Quote by Kristin Neff,

Best-selling author of Self-Compassion.

Stop beating yourself up and leave insecurity behind.

She has,

I'm putting her website at the end of the notes,

Show notes,

Because she really invented how self-compassion cures shame.

So what I want to talk about today is the difference between guilt and shame.

So guilt is behavior-based.

It refers to something you did or didn't do.

So what you did was bad.

I did something bad.

When you feel shame,

You think that your entire spirit,

Soul,

Being is wrong.

And deep down,

You truly have no value and are not worthy of love.

Shame is often referred to as the toxic cousin of guilt.

Guilt says,

I did something bad.

Shame says,

I am bad.

The reason that distinction is important is because part of healing from toxic parents and an emotionally abusive childhood is confronting the shame-based way you were raised and taking steps to heal from it.

So,

You know,

When I started this healing journey,

One of the few things I had to do first was strip away all the layers of shame.

It's very connected to abandonment and rejection.

So my parents both physically and emotionally abandoned me.

There was constant rage,

Constant criticism.

It was painful.

It was debilitating.

And it is why I was controlled by pretending not to feel that shame for most of my life.

So when you feel guilty,

You know,

You look sort of outward and you say,

Oh,

I need to apologize.

I need to correct this bad thing that I've done,

This bad behavior,

This bad thing I said.

When we feel ashamed,

We're looking inward,

Focusing on all that pain and chaos,

You know,

All that turmoil going on inside us.

And we have absolutely no idea what's truly happening around us.

That must be so hard to fix.

It is brutal.

It's worth it because the whole avoidance of shame is actually more destructive than facing it.

It's just doesn't feel that way.

It feels more painful to actually face it.

But that's actually not true.

It's just as painful to avoid it as it is to face it.

The difference is you keep avoiding it and there's no cure.

You just run around in chaotic,

Tumultuous circles behaving in a very disconnected way to yourself and to the environment around you.

I did that for 40 plus years.

You can't escape it.

I mean,

It's with you.

It's there.

You can't run away from it.

You can't.

And people don't realize that that's what they do every day in every thought they have.

So when you feel guilty,

You're motivated to apologize,

Make amends,

Correct a mistake.

Right.

There's something you can do about it.

There's something.

Shame influences your actions.

You have continuously chronic self-destructive thoughts.

And I would call pervasive self-loathing all from shame based parenting.

My parents were all raised with shame and they pass it on because they spend their whole lives running from it,

Pretending that they don't feel it.

So they taught me to do the same thing.

Wow.

So there's a lot of fear and anxiety associated with shame because you you feel like you're afraid of being found out.

You're afraid that people can actually see how much you self-loathe yourself.

So shame cuts much deeper than guilt.

And that's why it's very,

Very dangerous and self-sabotaging.

I've talked about this book before.

I will put a link in the notes.

A Healing the Shame that Binds You,

It was written by John Bradshaw.

He's,

I'm quoting him on this.

This is a fantastic quote.

Shame based families operate according to the laws of a social system.

When a social system is dysfunctional,

It is rigid and closed.

All the individuals in that family are enmeshed in a kind of trance like frozenness.

They take care of the system's need for balance rather than their own needs for growth.

End quote.

So if you think about a toxic family system,

It's preserving the falseness of it all.

You know,

I'll use my narcissistic mother as an example.

And this doesn't have to be narcissism.

It's a toxic family system.

I'm just using narcissism because I can make a very quick correlation right now with that.

She had to be adored,

Worshipped,

Cared,

Admired,

No matter what she did or how she behaved.

The entire family system rested on that.

So anything that didn't keep that balance going resulted in screaming,

Manipulation,

Rage,

Threats,

Silent treatment,

And toxic family systems have to be preserved because everybody's hiding.

Nobody's confronting everything.

Anything.

So the whole,

From the time you wake up to the time you go to sleep,

For your entire childhood is maintaining that system.

There's no room for growth,

Self-discovery,

Seeing things for,

You know,

You know,

How they are because you're so busy protecting your own shame because you're protecting your parents' shame.

So you don't really ever learn how to function in the world.

You don't.

Like in relationships and with yourself and how to grow up.

Exactly,

Which is why people who are shame-based,

Like I was,

Are at high risk for depression and anxiety.

It reminds me a little bit of like how some societies,

Like organized religions,

Will operate in a similar way.

There's a lot of hiding of the truth and protecting of the leaders.

And it's hard for people to break out of it.

And they're so enmeshed in it that they can't get away from it.

And they don't,

It's,

You know.

That was a great point.

That leads me,

I just want to,

I'll add this book too.

So Shannon Thomas is an author and a therapist that talks about how certain,

You know,

Religious environments,

Cultural environments,

Have,

You know,

Facilitate and reinforce shame-based lifestyle,

Shame-based thinking.

It's control.

It's how they control the followers.

Exactly.

And it's called Healing from Hidden Abuse is the book that Shannon Thomas wrote.

And she talks a lot about that.

Wow.

So it's,

What I'm saying is shame,

That's why,

I'm glad you brought that up,

Shame-based parenting can be narcissistic or personality disorder-based.

And my stepdad did it too.

You know,

He had,

I think he's,

You know,

Borderline sociopath,

Nonviolent.

He was the enabler,

Right?

Yes,

He was the enabler.

Right.

So in order for like the whole family to function in this crazy way,

You know,

Your mom sort of needed to be in control and be the center of attention and your stepdad needed to be the enabler to make sure all of that,

To do her bidding in a way,

Right?

Correct.

He did,

You know,

But as you know,

As they've gotten older,

You know,

I don't spend much time with them now.

You know,

To be honest with you,

My life is better with them at a limited,

On a limited,

Very limited basis,

But it's gotten pretty bad.

You know,

He's,

You know,

He's getting worse.

You know,

To me,

Again,

You know,

I always talk about,

I'm not a therapist or clinician.

I have no training,

But you know,

He has an odd combination of sociopathy,

Narcissism and antisocial personality disorder,

And that's certainly rearing its ugly head now.

You know,

He's,

Just the way he's constantly sneering at everybody.

And it's funny,

Growing up,

Looking back at that,

You know,

That sneer,

That constant disapproval,

Look of disgust is actually very debilitating,

Which we're going to talk about in our next episode.

But you know,

I see that now and all that triggers shame.

So part of how shame happens is what we actually need to grow up into functioning,

Healthy,

Emotionally stable,

Fulfilled adults is authentic parental connection,

Unconditional love and attunement.

And you need that from the day you're born to get self-esteem,

Self-acceptance and self-love,

Which will allow you to feel like the world is safe,

Make good decisions,

Get to know yourself.

You won't fear making mistakes.

So like me,

Too many of us don't get that.

Have you ever met anybody who did get that?

Because everybody seems to come from some kind of weird childhood.

That's a really good question.

I don't meet.

And I,

You know,

Again,

It's COVID,

So I don't meet anybody anymore.

Right.

But if you think about it,

You know,

How many people have we really met in our lives that are like really self-aware and self-confident,

Not people like us who have figured it out,

But who actually grew up with that,

With that healthy upbringing?

I think that it's a fantastic question.

I think that damage exists on a spectrum.

You know,

I think that there are people,

You know,

You're born with a certain personality type and,

You know,

Likes and dislikes and traits and the environment can bring out the best in you or the worst in you.

So,

You know,

I look at,

I'll get used,

You know,

There's people that I know,

You know,

I have a friend who I see as very codependent.

She's running around taking care of everybody.

She never sleeps,

Never eats,

But she's actually a very happy person.

So while she does overextend herself and vacuums her entire house every day,

While working full time and making perfect meals,

She's actually a happy person and she seems to have very well-adjusted kids.

So I think the spectrum,

Wherever she falls in the toxic childhood spectrum,

If she even had one,

It worked out for her.

I'm saying like whatever her pound did,

It suited her personality.

So,

Again,

It comes down to nature,

Virtues,

And nurture.

I look at my oldest daughter who,

You know,

Happens to be,

I would call,

You know,

She's definitely volatile in terms of,

You know,

Ups and downs.

She's emotional and she reacts a lot and it's all okay.

But because I'm really not somebody who does that,

It's kind of a good balance.

I think if she had had a mother who did that,

There would be,

She would fall further along the spectrum of,

You know,

She'd have a lot of challenges.

She'd have a lot of challenges because that would have exacerbated what was already there.

Right,

Right.

That's true.

So that's why,

You know,

That's sort of the luck of the draw.

You know,

I talk to parents all the time because I work with kids a lot and it's so interesting.

I find that in a lot of the situations,

The kids really know who they are and what they want and they just sort of like do their thing.

And it's the parents who need a little help,

Actually.

A lot of times,

I mean,

I even spoke to someone the other day about her daughter and she was telling me that her daughter is not interested in the same thing.

She used to be interested and she's changing and I was like,

That's a good thing.

And she was,

She was like,

Really?

And I said,

Yeah,

It's a very good thing.

Like give your kids the freedom to change their minds and do what they want.

It's so interesting when that happens.

So I want to give you credit.

That's a great advice.

But I also want to give her credit for even verbalizing that observation.

Yeah.

So when you want to talk about emotional abuse on a spectrum,

Some,

She noticed it and talked about it.

Some parents wouldn't even know that their kid was even losing interest.

Or even care.

Right,

That's true.

Well,

The thing is,

I think she felt a little bad about it.

Like maybe she wasn't a hundred percent sure that she was guiding her daughter in the right way.

So when she talked about it with me,

I gave her a perspective on it that she didn't think about and kind of made it okay to just like back off.

Like let your daughter be her.

Look at that for X.

This is a wonderful analogy you provided.

Think about what her first thought was.

My kids changing.

What am I doing wrong?

Yeah.

That was the first thought.

Right.

How do I make sure she sticks with what she said she loved doing?

It's not about you.

She's 15,

14.

Let her just figure she's going to change her mind a million times.

Just like we do.

I changed my mind seven times since we started this podcast.

I saw it.

What I'm saying is we're conditioned to take responsibility for things that we really aren't responsible for.

And that's part of the,

You know,

The shame-based Foundation that we have.

And I want to repeat,

It is on a spectrum.

You know,

Not everyone is as messed up as I was as a result,

You know,

Not everybody's going to fall in that which is great.

Yeah.

So and I do think,

You know,

As we talked about with Marissa who is,

You know,

I think she's 25 years old,

You know,

That environment,

They have a lot of,

There's a lot more options,

There's a lot more openness,

There's a lot more acceptance.

You know,

Over,

You know,

Regarding emotional intelligence and being aware and being true to yourself.

I mean this,

That's very different than the way my generation was for sure.

Yeah.

So I think that's why the kids are a little more sure of themselves,

You know,

Is there's a lot of information out there,

Probably the one upside to social media and Google's,

There's a lot of access to information says,

Yeah,

It's okay to not be okay.

And here's how you can be okay.

Nice.

Well,

It's nice to get some validation to and not feel like you're alone.

Like not feel like you're the only one that's going through these things.

And obviously,

That is huge.

Yeah,

Obviously we're not alone.

I mean people are listening and relating to what we're talking about.

So that's because you know,

The whole concept of parenting needs to change.

And it starts with realizing that you weren't parented properly.

Yeah,

And this is only for people who are unhappy,

Who are miserable,

Who you know,

Were,

You know,

Riddled with anxiety and depression.

I mean,

That's all,

That's all connected.

Yeah.

What as an emotionally abusive childhood,

Instead of getting celebrated,

We get ignored,

Rejected,

Criticized,

Judged,

Belittled,

Controlled,

And manipulated.

And all that turns us into adults that feel undeserving,

Inadequate,

Angry,

And inferior.

And at the root of all that is shame.

So you look at life through a shame filter.

You look at experiences through a shame filter.

And most of the time it's not intended that way.

So when you have shame,

A very strong shame-based upbringing,

There's a almost a manic hyper vigilance to your surroundings.

When's the next explosion?

What can I do to keep that family harmony?

How can I make sure they,

You know,

My stepdad used to fly off the handle over everything,

Everything.

And while he never was physically abusive,

The implied threat was always there.

So that's very frightening.

So you never want to do anything to trigger that.

So if you are hyper sensitive to your environment,

Step,

You know,

Tiptoeing,

There's no authentic connection with yourself or to the people around you.

How can there be?

Because all you're doing is scanning for threats and problems.

Sure.

So,

You know,

When you are judged,

Rejected,

Criticized and all that,

There's this false ideal image of yourself that gets established.

That,

You know,

This is what you're supposed to be.

This is what prevents problems.

This is what makes you feel safe.

And that false self image is the accumulation of toxic,

Negative thoughts installed into your brain by God-like people who are supposed to actually love,

Protect and support you.

And they do the opposite.

So we're very quick to criticize ourselves and judge ourselves,

Which further makes us feel isolated.

So we talked about that in an earlier episode.

Remember we talked about how the motivations for why we did the things we did,

Why we went into the fields that we went into and the choices we made.

We're all wrong.

We went,

The motivations were completely wrong.

They were based on the shame and expectations we grew up with and the protecting our,

You know,

Psyche and trying to be something that our parents would be happy with.

And it's just so unfortunate because to think of like,

You know,

Where the had we not taken those roads that were not necessarily the right roads,

You know,

We would have made these discoveries sooner.

A hundred percent true,

You know,

So the message sent is I will suck it up.

I'm going to suck it all up.

I'm going to suck it up.

I don't there are people who have it worse than me.

I'm not deserving of compassion.

So that's now for me.

I was a highly skilled compartmentalizer.

So oftentimes I would be very detached and unemotional but play the role on the,

You know,

Soccer sidelines or parent night or at somebody's birthday and play that funny role.

Or happy will or accommodating whatever whatever the situation demanded I would give.

So when you do that most deep down you're probably,

You know,

I was very numb.

I was apathetic.

I was disconnected and you know,

Who wants to deal with somebody who's falling apart?

So you suck it up.

Right?

I was more of the people pleaser.

I plea every people please to do the right thing make everybody happy sing song,

You know do all the right thing.

Well,

The whole people pleasing thing comes in in different forms.

Absolutely.

I always cared so much what people thought about me to like I remember as a as a teenager.

I was so worried that somebody wouldn't like me.

I felt you know as people pleaser and being raised to appease the insanity around you.

That's what you do.

You go.

Okay.

What's you know,

What do I need to be doing to feel good?

What do I need to be doing to make somebody,

You know,

See me as a value every day every thought is like that.

Yeah,

You know and going back,

You know,

Hundred years.

My great-grandparents my grandparents and my parents is you.

Don't have feelings don't talk about it.

Don't express them.

So when you have a hundred years of people doing that everyone's got this tempest in a teapot sitting inside them and eventually people rupture in the form of in different ways.

It could be atomic rage physical abuse emotional abuse verbal abuse relentless.

Criticism.

So when they were all too busy failing to acknowledge their shame and denying was there they created more.

So I spent most of my life thinking I was flawed defective and unable to fit in.

It was a source of self sabotage for me.

It was destructive and guided some very poor decisions that I made but I have the antidote coming up.

Whoo.

What's the antidote?

Are we taking a break and then we're going to come back for the antidote?

Oh,

We're taking a break.

We'll be right back.

And as promised we're back tell us the antidote Tammy.

Compassion.

That's it.

Do we need that?

No,

The big lead-up to it compassion.

Tell us about compassion.

So as I said,

Kristin Neff is a wonderful resource on this whole topic and I have her website the show notes.

So compassion.

So when you are on a healing journey and you're interested in spiritual growth and inner peace.

The support can also as it comes from books and groups and therapy can also come from within inside you.

So that's where having compassion means you just put down those heavy bags of guilt you've been carrying.

Start to get the image this idealized false image of yourself that you're supposed to be or that somebody told you were supposed to be out of your head.

So when you rationally acknowledge that you've done your best at something and whether you're suffering or failing or feeling inadequate sort of saying to yourself.

I did the best I could with where I'm at at this moment.

If you are not using compassion,

You're probably beating yourself up with self criticism and harsh negative self-talk,

Which is what I used to do.

So there are experiences that will trigger shame by having a little bit of compassion.

You can take a step back from those shameful moments and look at it without self-loathing and when you can look at a moment without self-loathing you strengthen your capacity for self-reflection.

So your toxic parents shamed the real you into oblivion.

Awareness of that and acceptance that they did the best they could with what very limited resources they had will slowly erase the you are not good enough lie.

That's a lie.

You are not good enough is a lie and their inability to heal their own pain perpetuated that lie.

So they didn't know better.

So you don't know better.

But if you're listening to this chances are you do know better now.

So in your own mind,

Do you have to forgive them for doing you what they did?

Yes.

I didn't say pardon forgive them.

I am most of the time not all the time most of the time.

I'm not angry with my parents anymore.

I'm disengaged.

I'm distant.

And that's better for me.

There's definitely one,

You know,

They still try they still try the silent treatment the whatever the manipulation the they try to,

You know,

Start gossip all that.

Do they still think you're a kid?

I don't know what they think because their lens is so distorted their view on life is so disturbed.

I don't know what they think.

I'm not even sure they think I think they're just I just think they're you know,

When you're in first grade kindergarten the whole world is very egocentric the whole world revolves around you right?

They're still there.

So I can't predict what a first grader thinks nor do I even want to put the energy into it because it's not really helpful.

You have to focus on your reaction to whatever it is that they do.

Overwhelming shame gets chiseled away by self-awareness and self-compassion.

So it is allows you to shift your thinking and you will feel less isolated.

So pay attention to the inner self-talk you have.

Would you the phrases you say to yourself?

Would you say that to somebody you cared about?

Think about that if you had a best friend who was upset or sister,

Whatever it is,

A husband spouse kid,

What would what would you say to them if they came to you with the very same thought process you're having now?

So when you're shame-based you see mistakes and flaws as catastrophic.

When you have compassion we have flaws we have weaknesses and we accept them with grace and dignity.

And yes,

Sometimes you will make mistakes and you will suffer but you're not alone.

Nobody's perfect.

But when we are shame-based,

We don't see that we think we're the only ones that made this mistake.

One of the other things you can do to overcome toxic shame is become a compassionate witness to and mourn your wounds.

So this is the challenging part where you have to sort of go back and revisit a lot of those terrible experiences and then look at them differently rather than looking at them with I am flawed,

I am terrible,

I am awful,

I screwed up,

I'm a misfit,

I am bad,

Rather than I was taught to do look at things this way and it wasn't the right thing,

It was a lie.

So it is very healthy to mourn the child and the parents that you should have had,

I do it every day.

But it's momentary and then you move on.

So you're saying to become like an objective witness to like step outside of yourself and look at it from an objective point of view?

Absolutely.

Because then by doing that you don't look at it with,

You know,

Self-patron.

You look at it as,

Oh,

This was a pretty lousy thing that was done to me.

Right,

It's more a matter of fact.

I think that's great.

Yes.

So I spent up until a few years ago pretending I wasn't in shame,

Being a victim,

And it didn't work for me.

So again,

When you know better,

You do better.

So I'm going to end with another quote from Krista Neff because she's my favorite human being right now.

Love it.

If you are continually judging and criticizing yourself while trying to be kind to others,

You are drawing artificial boundaries and distinctions that only lead to feelings of separation and isolation.

That was in the book Self-Compassion,

The Power,

Proven power of being kind to yourself.

So she has a bunch of books on an incredible website.

So I actually want to read that again.

If you are continually judging and criticizing yourself while trying to be kind to others,

You are drawing artificial boundaries and distinctions that only lead to feelings of separation and isolation.

So if you think about what that's doing to you,

What are you going to do when you feel isolated and separated?

You're going to try to self-soothe in toxic ways.

And that could be anything.

It could be drugs,

Food,

Bad habits,

Anything.

You know,

There's a whole list of,

You know,

Behavior disorders,

But that's where self-compassion will help you.

If you judge and you criticize yourself less,

You won't feel so alone.

It's almost like inviting all of your friends to a party except yourself.

Everybody's invited.

Everybody.

Let's have a good time.

Not you,

Right?

Yourself cannot come.

Yes.

That's right.

Nice.

Well,

Be kind to yourself.

That's the takeaway.

Self-compassion is the antidote to shame.

That's right.

That's great.

And with that,

We're going to say goodbye and we'll catch you next time on The Stuck Stops Here.

Have a great day,

Everyone.

You have been listening to The Stuck Stops Here.

We are not licensed therapists.

We are not life coaches.

We are not certified in anything.

Nothing.

I just want to be a resource for those beginning or on their healing journey.

Reviews

Thank you! Huge resonance! It’s not my fault! My responsibility to change, but not my fault. Such a lifting of an emotional weight.