Grey Rock & Roll (Season 3)

Grey rock is a tool to prevent toxic people from creating drama, "pushing your buttons" and stressing you out—three things toxic parents love to do. By acting as boring, uninteresting, and unengaged as possible, the grey rock method discourages the toxic person, and they’ll often seek out a more exciting target for their manipulative behavior. The best way to deal with a toxic parent is to change our response to them. Toxic people crave excitement and drama, so be the most boring person you’ve ever met.

Transcript

Welcome to the Stuck Stops Here,

Your source for dealing with toxic families and multi-generational dysfunction.

This is LW No Lie and I'm here with my co-host,

Tami Reseda-Atman.

A tragedy that we can't see,

A child that doesn't know.

A tree that never leaves,

Big roots down below.

The voices and the door are the ones you can't ignore.

Out of the fog into the sun.

I can feel it in my chest,

I'm not like all the rest.

Time to be free to be done.

Welcome to season three,

Episode seven.

We're back!

I have been working like a dog.

Day job because I have a thing called electricity that I have to pay for.

And oh yeah,

Mortgage and food.

And so I've been working and that's why you haven't heard from me.

But I am very grateful,

We are back,

But I'm really grateful that people actually missed me.

Yeah.

Excuse me.

Oh,

I was being totally self-absorbed.

It's a slip up,

I slipped.

People missed us.

That's right,

That's right.

But we're back.

We're back.

All right,

So today what we're going to talk about is first the gray rock method and why we use it and who we use it on.

I'm going to start with the definition of the gray rock method.

Gray rock method is being emotionally nonresponsive,

Both internally and externally.

They're boring like a gray rock.

It's a way of detaching from toxic people.

There's different types of toxicity.

So the gray rock method,

By detaching internally and externally and being boring and nonresponsive and nonreactive,

It takes away what toxic people often want the most,

Attention,

Negative or positive attention.

In the case of toxic parents,

It's negative attention.

I'm glad you brought that up,

Tammy,

Because I was wondering how do you deal with somebody that drives you crazy,

But it's somebody that you're related to and that you have to,

You can't completely go no contact,

But every time you speak to them,

It's like they're sticking their hand inside your chest and ripping your heart out with their passive aggressive comments and way of being.

And this was me up until a few years ago.

You still care.

You still think that they're going to change.

And it is that delusion,

Which is very fair to have,

And it's a delusion that I lived with that we will have the type of relationship that we've always dreamed about,

But we won't.

As you all know,

I've done years of research,

Listened to thousands of podcasts,

Read hundreds of books,

And they all say the same thing.

It hurts because we have not accepted that we're not going to get blood from a stone.

Like that stone,

Blood from a stone,

Gray rock.

That's great.

Where did that term come from?

Gray rock.

Oh,

You know,

Somebody,

I do have that written down as to who said it and I don't have it in front of me.

So apologies.

Maybe we'll put it in the show notes.

I think it was a blogger.

I'll put it in the show notes.

I do have it.

And I actually am going to link what's called Flying Monkeys Denied.

It's a wonderful website.

I'll put that link in the show notes.

That also talks a lot about this.

So gray rock works best with,

I'm going to focus on toxic parents because that's been my experience.

So there are four types of Cluster B personality disorders,

And that's all in psychology today,

The mental health manuals,

And I don't want to get into the medicine because I am not a doctor at all.

I am not a clinician.

I'm not certified in anything.

But four types of personality disorders fall under Cluster B.

Antisocial personality disorder,

Borderline personality disorder,

Histrionic personality disorder,

Narcissistic personality disorder.

Those four form the Cluster B.

I have no experience with borderline,

So I won't discuss that.

But I do have experience with the other three.

And this is,

I'm describing these personality disorders so you can see why the gray rock method works.

I'm going to get it described briefly,

The three personality disorders that I've dealt with,

And then get into more detail as to why gray rock works.

Briefly,

Histrionic personality disorder,

Which my biological mother has.

They have intense,

Unstable emotions,

Distorted self-images.

Self-esteem depends on the approval and the attention of others,

And there is absolutely no true self-worth.

They are painfully empty.

They have an intense toxic desire to be noticed,

And they behave dramatically,

Theatrically,

And seductively to get attention.

So some additional descriptions.

Overly concerned with physical appearance.

Excessively sensitive to criticism and disapproval.

Low tolerance for frustration.

Easily bored.

Self-centered.

No empathy for other people.

Eradic.

Severely erratic emotions.

And their connections to people are very fake and very shallow and very meaningless,

Which is why they're so easily bored.

So it is more common in women than men.

That was my mother.

Now antisocial personality disorder.

That was my stepfather.

That is a violation of physical or emotional rights of others.

Lack of stability in their careers.

Constant and chronic irritability and aggression.

No remorse.

Consistent irresponsibility.

Recklessness,

Impulsive,

And deceitfulness.

My stepdad fills every single one of those boxes.

Last one,

Narcissistic personality disorder.

We've discussed this a lot,

But in case there's any new listeners,

Narcissism.

Lack of empathy for other people.

Need for admiration.

Arrogant,

Self-centered,

Manipulative,

Demanding.

Their sense of entitlement.

Their superior.

They like to exploit others.

Deep down they are painfully insecure and very,

Very empty.

So both my mom and my stepdad have narcissistic personality disorder.

So there is a new pop psychology term called a narcopath,

Which talks about having a combination of these cluster B personality disorders,

Not just one.

So my toxic parents had a combination of both,

As I just explained.

So they are toxic parents that fall under these cluster B are toddlers or petulant teenagers,

Even if they're 60,

70,

80,

Or 90 years old.

They like to cause problems.

They thrive on chaos and misery.

According to the Flying Monkeys Denied website,

As of 2015,

It is estimated that 10% of the global population had some type of cluster B personality disorder.

So this is pervasive.

And nobody,

They don't grow out of it.

They don't grow out of it,

Right?

They cannot be cured.

They cannot be cured.

They can mellow.

My biological father was narcissist and he has mellowed.

And he now has remorse.

He doesn't change his behavior,

Still points the finger at everyone else,

And still says,

Likes to blame every,

Points the finger,

Blame everyone else,

Make us feel guilty for his own inadequacies.

But because he has rare moments of clarity and rare moments of expressing remorse,

I have a hard time staying angry at him.

Because to have to say that to your kids at 70 something years old,

That's a lot of crap to live with.

So I have no interest in beating him up.

So you employed the gray rock method with your parents?

With all of them.

With all of them,

Yes.

So it was really you who changed,

Right?

It was you who decided you weren't going to care because they weren't going to change.

It was you who stopped absorbing their bullshit because you knew that they weren't going to change,

Right?

It was you who changed.

Beautiful statement.

That's why I love you.

To break the cycle of toxicity and reacting to toxicity,

I had to shut up and observe.

By shut up and observe,

What you start to do is look at their behavior in a different way that depersonalizes the experience.

So when you are raised with toxic parents,

There are these terrible pathways that are carved out into your brain and become automatic.

You're not born with that.

It's automatic.

And you are hardwired to react.

Walk on eggshells,

People please,

Or become a superior,

Empty person yourself.

There's a lot of different ways to react.

So when you shut up and observe like I did,

You start to see that,

Oh,

This is their crap,

Their bags,

Their problems.

And because they like misery,

Chaos,

And hate to see other people happy,

They're dumping it on me because they want to bring me down.

And I am not alone.

Like I said,

Could be as much as 20% of the population.

So that's a lot of people that are being affected by this on a day to day basis and failing to live an authentic life as a result of it.

So Tammy,

You remember,

You remember just to interrupt for a second,

When we talked to my sister.

Interrupt all the way.

Yeah.

A while back,

We talked to my sister in an episode called Twisted Sisters from a Different Mister.

Yeah.

I made up,

I made up some crazy title.

It's a great title.

She tells me that,

You know,

Despite the fact that she knows her mother's narcissistic and she's aware of it all,

Still when she speaks to her,

Which is now maybe once or twice a week,

I mean,

Her mother lives in a different country.

It's still every time she speaks to her mother,

Even though she's fully aware of all the things we talked about,

It still pains her.

It still feels like every time she has a conversation with her and she hangs up the phone,

She feels the anger and frustration of being this child of a narcissistic mother,

Like her mother just doesn't care about her.

And it's so devastating and disappointing every time.

But she can't not speak to her.

She can't like have no contact.

I hear you.

I get it.

And I know where she's at.

The issue for her is when she's getting angry and feeling like her heart's being ripped out when she talks to her mother,

What's behind that?

Does she think every time she's going to,

And she needs to ask herself that because this is all very personal and very unique to us.

So some questions that she could ask herself is where is the anger coming from?

Is she mad that the mother only talks about herself?

Is she upset that the mother never asks about her?

Is does she get on the phone expecting,

Well,

This time it will be different?

Susan Ford,

Author of Toxic Parents,

Talks about a repetition compulsion.

We do the same things over and over again,

Expecting that this time I'll get it right.

This time it will be different.

And it never happens.

And we sometimes have a hard time accepting that futility and we wallow in it.

So one of the things that you have to ask yourself is taking a step back and saying,

What is making me angry?

Is it the lack of interest?

Is there too much interest?

Is there the wrong kind of interest?

Are there cruel words?

Is there a disengagement and a disinterest and you want them to be interested?

Are you looking for advice knowing that they give you bad advice?

Those are the questions you have to ask yourself.

And I know,

Like,

You know,

I can't speak with my mother on the phone because of her deafness,

But on a text,

A lot of times she'll brag about my stepbrother's kids.

And she does that to try to make me feel bad.

It used to piss me off because I know that she wasn't going back to them bragging about my kids,

About my kids.

Now I don't care.

So how did you get to that point?

How did you get that point where you didn't care what happened?

You realized that it didn't matter or you realized you didn't care what you thought?

It was both.

And it wasn't an overnight thing.

The healing process is not linear.

It wasn't overnight.

I consistently read and listen to other works,

To other,

Like I said,

On my website,

I have a link to all the resources.

I have read every single one of them.

I've listened to so many podcasts that reinforce the same thing,

But they all say it in different ways,

Is you have to reparent yourself and you have to find your own peace and your own happiness because then you won't have these expectations of them being different or being better or being what they should have been.

So for me- Right,

Because that's not going to change.

It's not going to change.

So I lose myself in my reading,

My music or lyrics,

I should say,

You're the music.

I'm not taking credit for you.

And I work on my book every chance I get when I'm not working and paying electrical bills.

So that's how I lose myself in it because I am reminded about what all these other people have gone through and survived and how they survived.

And it all comes down to getting off those old paths that they've put you on,

Changing the way you see the world because you can't control what other people do.

You can only control your reaction to it.

Even though,

And once you take control and stop giving away your power,

See by getting upset with them,

They have power and they love that.

They're cluster B people.

They love it.

They like throwing firecrackers at your feet and watching you dance.

No,

I'm not.

No.

Take back your power.

Take back your power.

I love that.

Yeah.

Take back your bags.

We wrote a song.

Take back your bags.

Take back your bags.

I love it.

Like with the bag of shit that we were saying.

You remember we talked about that many times.

Like I don't want to hold this.

I'm not holding this.

And the other thing that's tricky about your sister having to deal with a mother like that is when somebody dies,

Physically dies,

That's terrible.

You go to the funeral and that loss and you feel that loss and people call you all the time in white letters and they tell you they're sorry for your loss.

Well,

How do you grieve the loss of somebody that's still alive?

Because in a way,

In a spiritual,

Emotional,

Parental way,

They are dead.

It's just we don't accept it.

And there's no bruises.

So there's nobody that can come over and save you and validate that loss.

So no one's going to go up to your sister,

Except for me,

Because I understand,

And say,

I'm so sorry for your loss.

So the process of grieving the loss of people who are still alive requires a lot of work and cultivating a deep satisfaction with your own life,

Your own interests,

Your own authentic passions,

And your own healthy relationships to get that validation that you're great because it's authentic.

It's not coming from people who can't give it to you.

It's coming from inside you because you are painting,

You're writing,

You're hiking,

You're yoga,

You're sewing.

You know,

And even if it's a business oriented,

Let's say you love to sell,

You love to,

Let's say you're doing that and you're selling and you're networking and you're meeting people.

If that's your thing,

That's what you need to do.

But because you love it and it feels something in you,

Because going,

You know,

Going to a pouring from an entry empty cup does nothing and going back to the same people over and over again for the attention,

The care,

The validation,

The comfort,

Whatever it is that you're looking for,

Going back to them and getting disappointed every time is a shitty path to be on.

It's terrible.

So we stay on it because it's comfortably miserable.

I did a podcast.

Yes.

Comfortably,

Yeah.

That's right.

I did a podcast on that.

So find something that's comfortably happy,

Not comfortably miserable.

Right.

And maybe just accepting the fact that you're not going to get the validation or any of the good feelings you're hoping to get from that person.

So when you speak to them,

Just keep it really neutral.

Keep it short and don't be emotionally involved.

And most people,

You're absolutely right.

Most people who are honestly listening to podcasts like mine are on a healing journey because you realize that the way you've been doing things and the way you've been treating yourself is not right.

When it needs to change,

It needs to get better.

But how?

Well one of the things,

His perfect example is when you have toxic coworkers.

And my oldest daughter was telling me about,

She has a boss who loves her.

Speaks highly of her,

But he's so comfortable he kids around with her a lot.

And sometimes it's probably too much like buddy,

Buddy guy,

Guy.

She calls him,

Well he said this and he said that.

And I was like,

Okay,

He probably went a little too far with his jokes.

He sees he's very comfortable around you.

He sees you as one of the guys,

But how many times has he complimented you to his supervisors?

Well,

Yeah.

So why are you focusing on the joke that went too far and not what he's done for you in the big picture?

So those are,

And that's such a benign thing,

But it is a daily interaction that can bring us down.

So as good of a mother as I tried to be,

So she's learned some of that hyper reactivity.

And I've told her,

You got some of that for me and I shouldn't have taught it to you,

But let's undo it together.

That's great.

I mean,

The fact that she can approach you and talk to you about it and you can say,

Let's undo it together is fantastic.

That alone is great parenting.

I love that.

I hope so.

I hope so.

All I can do is I can try.

And if you're coming from an authentic place,

Imperfection will be okay.

Yeah.

Nice.

That's great.

So let's,

Um,

Let's take a short break and then we're going to come back.

You have more to talk about with the gray rock method.

We'll be right back.

And we're back with the Stuck Stops here.

Tammy,

We were talking about the gray rock method.

So yes,

To elaborate further so that,

You know,

The listeners understand going gray rock is minimizing conversations,

Keeping your answers short to the point monotonous because then it doesn't give them anything to feed off of and react to.

I remember my mom and stepdad.

They loved problems.

They love gossip.

They love misery.

They're both very empty people.

So this is something that they chose to,

That seemed to fill them temporarily.

So you don't want to ignore them,

But you want to keep the topics boring.

You don't want to elaborate,

Especially on your personal life or personal details,

Because they'll probably use it against you.

You know,

Sometimes a non-response is wonderful.

So they say something inappropriate and you just smile and say nothing.

Now there's nothing to distract them for the stupid thing they just said.

So they're going to have to move on to something else and you haven't reacted.

And inside,

If it's churning you inside,

Why?

They're trying to bait you into this dirty psychological game.

So why are you getting angry at them for trying?

It's to fill their emptiness.

So people with cluster B personality disorders are bullies.

Gray rock is the best way to repel a bully.

You change who you are and what you do and what you say around them strictly to protect yourself and preserve your peace.

So by being dull and boring and monotonous,

They won't want to come to you for their narcissistic supply.

It's not fun to bully someone who doesn't react.

The whole point of what the bully likes is the reaction,

The power.

But the issue is you take back your power by not reacting and you strip away their power.

And that's when you start to feel some peace and some satisfaction.

Gray rock is about playing the long game and it means being neutral,

Stable,

And consistently mellow.

You take on the qualities of a boring gray stone.

Honestly like you're sitting in a river and the water just washes right over you.

You don't start being a rock.

Yeah,

You don't start being a rock.

That's a great analogy.

I love that.

It's a great analogy.

And I got that from Flying Monkeys Denied.

So it's a fantastic website and I will make sure I put the link.

For sure.

So a lot of times that,

Let's say you,

You know,

Gaslighting,

You know,

A lot of these cluster bee people use gaslighting.

Oh,

I didn't say that.

You're too sensitive.

You misunderstood me.

So let's say they say something cruel and you said that wasn't very nice.

Well,

I didn't mean anything by it.

Oh,

Okay.

Must be my mistake.

That's your response?

Yeah,

That's it.

Oh,

Okay.

It must be my mistake.

See,

That was really boring.

How great is that?

That's great.

And I've never known you to be boring.

Thank you.

Checks in the mail.

Actually,

Who mails checks now?

I'm going to Venmo you cash for every compliment.

Cash for compliments.

That's my new career.

So you avoid psychological combat when there is no verbal engagement and no reaction.

And that goes for bosses,

For coworkers,

For parents,

For siblings,

And unfortunately for significant others too.

Ideally cutting toxic people out of your life is the best choice.

But when you don't have that choice,

Gray rock is the next best thing to use.

That's great.

Sometimes you can't.

Sometimes you're stuck with those people and you can't.

I'm one of those people,

But I've mastered the gray rock method,

So they can't get to me anymore.

I love it.

I love it.

That's great.

That's awesome advice.

It took a few years of working on it.

So patience and perseverance and it will pay off.

Nice.

Great.

Fantastic.

All right.

Well,

That's amazing.

I guess that is our episode today of the Stock Stops here.

I want to say to our listeners,

If you have something in particular that you want us to talk about,

Please email us at the stockstopshere.

Com and we would love to hear what you want to hear us talk about.

What do you think about that,

Tammy?

I would love that.

That would,

Because I try to cover everything and remain,

I want to be interesting and engaging and helpful.

So it helps to hear from the listeners and I apologize for being absent the past month,

But I'm hoping to try to get back to it.

If I can't do weekly,

Every other weekly,

I'm going to try.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Stay with us everybody,

Because we really love doing this and we really love the fact that we know we've helped a lot of people,

Despite the fact that we are not doctors,

We're not licensed therapists or life coaches,

But we know that we've helped a lot of people through our casual discussion of these subjects that we have experienced ourselves.

So we want to keep doing that.

So stay with us and we will see you,

Speak to you again next time on the Stuck Stops Here.

Go gray,

Rock and roll.

Sleepwalking in a lie,

I can't fix what I deny,

A firefly in the rain,

A risk we didn't take,

A mess we didn't make,

Wonder why we're in pain.

When the apple wakes far away from the tree,

Roots feel like chains,

Got the wind behind me.

You are enough,

You are not alone,

It's not your fault,

That house was not a home.

Wish I had a voice,

Wish I had a choice,

But now you do,

Yes you do.

You are enough,

You are not alone,

It's not your fault,

That house was not a home.

Wish I had a voice,

Wish I had a choice,

But now you do,

Yes you do.

Now you do,

Yes you do.

Reviews

Very, very good!

OMG perfect timing for me. I’ve shared the story of my mana here before so I won’t repeat it. I heard you speak about Gray Rock here before and like LW’s sister I can’t get to this place. One week ago my mama (92) and I had the worst confrontation of my life. I was jerking all over and thought I was having a heart attack. Since July 8 my dad(almost 93) has been in the hospital for procedures and surgery or rehab and my low contact is non existent. Some days I’m at their house 3-4 times a day! Gray Rock is my only way out! I should listen to this one everyday until I can do this. Please continue this topic in another podcast.

Thank you both so very much and it’s great to have you back!!