Don't Drink Poison Just Because You're Thirsty (Season 1)

My healing journey resulted in dozens of AHA! moments. This episode is dedicated to Susan Forward, best selling author of “Toxic Parents”. This book was life-changing for me and a wonderful resource for me to draw from on my healing journey. (Reminder: we are not therapists or life coaches.) We are people hoping the concept of “healing” from generational trauma goes viral hope to be the voice of the unheard. I take the subject of toxic families more seriously than I take myself. This is episode 2 of The Stuck Stops Here Series.

Transcript

Welcome to episode two of our podcast,

The Stuck Stops Here.

I'm LW Noly and I'm here with Tammy Resita-Atman and the title of today's episode is Don't Drink Poison Just Cause You're Thirsty.

Tammy,

What do you have to say about that?

It's something I used to drink heavily and a lot of people do.

So it's sort of an analogy of don't accept what is not good for you because you don't know where else to get good stuff.

You know,

Don't accept the bad stuff that's the way you're being treated.

100 percent.

There's no need for it.

That's right.

But a lot of people don't realize that they're being mistreated because it's what they know.

So they just assume that,

Yes,

I'll keep drinking the poison.

There's nothing else to draw from.

Actually,

There is.

It's similar to what we were saying last week about how some people would rather have all the negative than be alone.

Absolutely.

Because we are addicted often to what is familiar because we don't know any other way.

And it goes back to those toxic family patterns that you think that this is normal because when you're two and three and four,

You assume that everyone else is like this.

But you can't understand why you're so unhappy.

That's a great song.

So I want to just bring to your attention,

Listeners,

That Tammy wrote the lyrics to this song and the song you heard last week called Keep On Keeping On.

And this one what's this one called?

When roots feel like chains.

Wow.

That is a great title.

Yes.

And accurate.

So we were thinking,

You know,

This was this is our first podcast.

And I think it's important that we say something about the fact that we're not licensed therapists.

We're just two women who know what we know and we just want to share it with everybody.

But just remember,

I am not a licensed therapist or a life coach.

Me either.

What I've done is I have taken the resources that I've used and I want to share with them how I applied what I learned from those resources to my life.

So my again,

It's my interpretation.

You have to,

You know,

Come up with your own path,

Your own ways of healing.

I'm just trying to provide tools to make it easier for people to think differently than the way they've always thought.

Now,

You also called yourself a clusterfuck.

Yes.

Explain that.

I'm a recovering clusterfuck.

Explain.

So a clusterfuck,

If you look up the dictionary,

Is a disaster really disastrously mishandled situation.

Wow.

And that would be defined my childhood as well as basically inept parents or parents who are have their own unmet needs.

They create disastrously mishandled situations.

So essentially they created the clusterfuck.

Yes,

Because they themselves are too.

Well,

It sounds like a lot of childhoods.

Sadly,

Too many.

But we're here to solve that.

We're going to fix it.

Absolutely.

Stay tuned.

Hi,

It's Tammy Atman.

I'm here with LW no lie.

Hope you liked the song.

Today's episode,

We're going to refer a lot to one of the best books I've ever read.

The name of the book is Toxic Parents.

The author is Susan Forward,

Who I believe wrote this book in 1989,

And it is still impressively relevant today.

She is one of the nation's leading therapists.

She's a bestselling author of Men Who Hate Women and Women Who Love Them,

As well as Toxic Parents.

She's a lecturer,

Talk show guest,

And she's been a consultant up and down the Southern California psychiatric and medical facilities.

So this book was life changing.

I urge you to run to your computer and download it.

I was going to say run to the store and buy it,

But nobody does that.

No,

We don't have to run to the store anymore.

I find out about a new book.

It's on my iPad yesterday.

And I actually listened to the audio version,

Which I love.

And one of the things that she talks about is the family system,

The toxic family system.

And her definition is every family is a complex system of a whole spectrum of positive and negative feelings from love,

Pride,

Joy,

Jealousy,

Guilt,

Anxiety,

Rage,

And contentment.

But underneath is where the hidden rules and the hidden motivations are.

The deeper you go,

The more you discover,

Which is very true in a toxic family system as well as uncovering your own source of pain.

So the beliefs and the rules in a toxic family system are centered around and exclusively devoted to the toxic parents.

So and these hidden beliefs and these underlying rules are based on a bizarre and distorted perception of reality.

So you're saying the parents make these rules.

They make these rules because some of it's intentional.

Some of it is those are the rules they were raised by.

Because it seems like all families have some sort of rule system.

You know,

We all have kind of,

You know,

Dad wants us to have all dinner together every night or,

You know,

Everybody's got rules.

But the toxic parents come up with these rules that are designed to hold the children down.

Absolutely correct.

One hundred percent.

The toxic family system squashes individuality,

Personal growth,

Spiritual growth and autonomy.

You know,

This is she talks a lot about that.

So rules that,

You know,

Help children to survive in the real world and develop a sense of self are great rules.

You know,

You can't walk out of your classroom just because you don't like what the teacher said.

You know,

That's not going to help you in life.

That's different than not giving your mother or father the intention that they wanted or performing a task not up to their standards.

That has absolutely nothing to do with your development as a human being,

But more a perceived rejection or slight on their part.

So it's a crime that was never committed that you're being punished for.

Wow.

And you're punished not directly.

You're not in my case.

And that's this is what I focus on is my experience.

It was with a silent treatment or a guilt,

Guilt trip or a manipulation or a tantrum by by my parents.

So you would do things to avoid all that because at five,

Six,

Seven,

Eight,

That's painful.

Wow.

That's almost like being a child of someone,

Maybe an alcoholic parent.

I mean,

You're always tiptoeing around,

Afraid to be yourself and to express yourself.

Susan Forward talks a lot about that.

That has not been my experience.

So I can't speak to that.

But her book does end quite well.

You know,

Some of the examples of unspoken rules,

You respect your parents no matter what,

No matter how they treat you,

No matter what they do.

That's an absolute.

Again,

That goes back to the deification we talked about in the first episode,

Like making your parents godlike.

Right.

And there's only two ways to do things in the house.

You know,

Their way or the highway,

Your parents way or no way.

Right.

The expression is my way or highway,

My way or highway is right at the road.

Children should be seen and not heard.

We've that's been something that's been acceptable for a very long time.

And it's actually in terms of growing up to be an emotionally healthy adult,

The worst thing.

Children should absolutely be heard.

Absolutely.

And validated.

And then not this is actually probably a little more visible in terms of,

You know,

Don't ever stop needing me.

They're threatened by the child's growing independence because they themselves were raised by people who didn't want them to be independent and just goes on and on and on.

So healthy family encourages individuality,

Independence,

A sense of self-worth and adequacy or,

You know,

Some self-pride.

Well,

You would think that parents who themselves have all those things would for sure want to pass that on to their kids to be independent and why would they how can they pass on something that they don't have?

It's true.

So,

If they have been manipulated and guilted and by their own their own toxic upbringing,

They accept that as normal even if they're miserable.

And then their kids go on to do the same thing.

So how did you find for yourself that you were able to rise out of that?

You know,

The question I kept asking myself in 2014 when I hit rock bottom was how did I end up here?

It was probably the first time I had ever said or thought this person did this to me,

You know,

This person did this to me,

This person did that to me,

This situation,

You know,

Screwed me over.

I mean,

It was always something else,

Someone else.

It was never me.

When I finally asked the question,

How did I end up here?

What role did I play in hitting rock bottom?

That's when big things started to change for me.

Wow.

You know,

They say that if you accept 100% responsibility for all of your choices and for all the things you do in life,

You're in charge.

There's nobody can take that from you.

You it's your,

You know,

You you're unhappy,

Your fault.

You're happy,

Your fault.

So either way it's,

It's your choice.

But here in this situation,

I mean,

You were able to turn inward and see where it came from.

Well,

I discovered an empowering feeling when I realized I had a choice.

See,

We think we don't have a choice that we're always going to be a slave to their guilt,

To the parents,

Toxic family patterns.

It's funny,

I was listening to a couple friends talk.

I remember this,

You know,

A few months ago,

And both of them were saying how their mothers favored their sisters and their sisters children.

Okay.

So they were constantly put on a back burner.

There are children put on the back burner because their mother chose a favorite.

And it makes them so angry.

And it's been decades that they've put up with it.

I asked them,

Well,

How come you don't say something?

And they get dismissed when they do.

Don't upset me.

Don't aggravate me.

Don't do this.

Don't the mother would respond with,

I can't deal or,

You know,

You don't know what you're talking about that whole denial because they don't really want to face what they've the choices that they've made.

Right.

So you had said that your mother doesn't speak to her brother.

Correct.

She does not.

I will never know the truth.

So that's a family secret.

That's a yeah.

You know,

Every you know,

When you're in that kind of emotional,

I would say,

You know,

Quicksand and,

You know,

So angry.

I mean,

My mother's father abandoned the family and that affected them greatly.

So her own brother doesn't talk to his own daughter.

I,

Again,

I don't know the real reason.

I did reach out to her when I was doing the family history and she can't tolerate the way he acts in her mind.

You know,

He's verbally and emotionally abusive.

So why should she be around him?

But she could be he could be trying to change,

But she's so it's possible.

I don't know.

But he maybe is trying to change.

You know,

He's older.

You know,

He's,

You know,

In his 80s.

So maybe he wants to reconcile.

And but he will.

You know,

She will only allow him to reconcile the way she wants him to.

Oh,

It has to be her way.

Maybe it's maybe because they're a favorite in the family.

For me,

You know,

It's switched back and forth.

You know,

I've got a brother.

I got a stepbrother,

A stepsister.

And my stepbrother is probably the golden child.

And did your parents make that known?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And my mother was the queen of comparison.

Queen of comparison.

Oh,

Look what this person does.

Or look at the way they dress and look how nice they are to this mother.

It was a constant form to make me to put me on the defensive.

She did it to my brother,

Too.

Do you think that was a conscious choice that she made or is it just,

You know,

Her just what was inside her brain?

You know,

Everything I've read,

You know,

These toxic manipulators know what they're doing.

Well,

And,

You know,

Truthfully,

You know,

I think I believe,

You know,

My mother has narcissistic personality disorder based on everything that I've read.

And there really is no empathy.

And the best analogy I can give is the way I could describe our you know,

My mom,

My stepdad,

You know,

Who they met when I was very young,

Nine years old,

And my brother and I,

If we were in a room,

Everybody would just have to give my mother the attention or the adoration she wanted.

We really weren't allowed to interact with each other.

You had to be seen and not heard.

We had to be seen and not heard as it related to her.

Is it still like that?

Well,

I've gone low contact.

So what happens with the narcissist based on everything I've read is they get bored when they can't manipulate you.

They actually enjoy causing you to get upset or defensive.

And it seems like that's what gives them life.

That's what's called a narcissistic supply.

And I don't react anymore.

So all of a sudden you become boring to them.

Oh,

You don't give her any fuel for the fire,

Right?

Right.

Well,

That's a choice you made.

You took back your power.

So I was thinking of my two friends whose mother's favorite,

You know,

They still go back to the well for more.

You know,

I look at it as dealing with toxic parents is without ever addressing it within yourself.

It's like having a bucket with a hole in it.

And it just fills it just and it just goes in one top in the top and right out the bottom.

It just never.

Do you think that's where that song There's a Hole in the Bucket came from?

Maybe,

You know,

Because there's a hole in the bucket,

Dear Liza.

So fix it,

Dear Henry.

I always think about that.

It's fixed the hole already.

It's as simple as the concept,

You know,

Is as simple as that.

The execution is quite more challenging.

I say the healing journey is like,

You know,

Those big cranes that they use for buildings.

Yeah.

Healing journey feels like,

OK,

Those cranes drive a hole through your head,

Go straight down to your guts,

Pull everything out,

Rearrange it and then jam it back in.

Doesn't sound so fun.

It doesn't sound possible even.

I know.

But that's the analogy I give,

Because that's really a lot of the times is when people stop going to therapy is it's just too painful.

I mean,

It's very hard to accept the fact that,

You know,

Your parents don't love you,

That you were just a an object for them,

An extension of them.

Nobody wants to face that because that's almost as if they had died.

In my opinion,

You know,

That's that's really what it is,

Because now you have to look at them as,

You know,

Entities to be avoided and not a source of love.

It seems like that's a very emotional thing that's hard to heal from.

You know,

It seems like a common problem a lot of people have.

It's impossible.

It's almost impossible to recognize if you are comfortable.

It's almost like if the misery of staying the same is not as great as the misery of fixing yourself,

Then you will stay where you're at.

For sure.

For me,

It is the pain of staying the same was worse.

Wow.

So and I knew that a lot of people don't.

Yeah.

Wow.

It's really great that you took this journey and were able to resolve so many things for yourself.

You know,

I always think when I deal with toxic people,

Which I really don't deal with toxic people too much,

You know,

You can't win with them.

It's damned if you do and damned if you don't.

So I don't.

Yeah,

Avoidance as long as it's for the right reasons and it's done in the right way.

If it's done with anger and how to punish them,

Then that's not really helping you there.

There should be no rage associated with it because that's been motivating you for so long.

You know,

She she talks about,

You know,

The four different types of parents.

Excuse me.

She talks a lot.

You know,

She has more than that.

I think seven or eight.

I only want to talk about four types because that's the one that I you know,

Those are things that I can relate to.

And the the first one is godlike parents,

Which we sort of talked about.

Yeah.

You know,

And she says,

And I quote,

A child has no way to survive on their own.

Children are completely dependent on their parents without them.

They would be unloved,

Unprotected,

Unfed,

Unhoused,

Living in a constant state of terror,

Knowing they cannot survive alone.

The parents are the all powerful providers.

Children need parents supply with nothing and no one to judge them against.

A child assumes their parents is perfect.

So normal parents will tolerate independence and encourage it.

You know,

Normal normal parents understand that,

You know,

Independence is part of their developing to what an individual and an autonomous human being.

So,

Of course,

We're trying to raise children to become their own people so that they can continue with their lives as they grow,

As they become adults.

Absolutely.

And this was,

You know,

Clarified a lot for me because they constantly unconsciously,

Maybe even consciously undermine individual development.

They reinforce dependence and helplessness and then they disguise it as that they're actually doing what's best for you.

That is in your best interest.

And that's very confusing because it doesn't feel like it's the best.

But these godlike parents are telling you.

Right.

And it's hard to argue with that when they're saying I'm doing the best I can for you.

It's all for you.

How do you argue with that when you're a kid?

Right.

So you're like you feel guilty for being mad at them when they have their best interests in heart.

But it doesn't feel like it.

So there starts that suppression of rage slowly.

And that's like a little kindling and,

You know,

A little fire gets bigger and bigger and it gets harder and harder to put that fire out.

And a lot of people spend their whole lives in that,

Putting that fire out,

Squashing away that pain,

Never dealing with it,

And then wondering why they are chronically unhappy.

Have you met other people who have come from this kind of childhood and are filled with rage or guilt or those kinds of emotions?

It's,

You know,

Not everyone is forthcoming about their childhood rage.

I run into people all the time that are acting out their rage because I don't even know whether,

You know,

Anything about their family,

But it's clearly they're very angry.

And when you're that angry or that defensive or that hurt all the time or,

You know,

Everyone,

You know,

Slighted me,

Slight,

You know,

That's learned behavior.

You know,

You're not born pissed at the world.

That's learned behavior.

So when,

You know,

I love the phrase,

They hurt my feelings.

Nobody has the power to hurt your feelings.

They can't look at you.

Oh,

Look,

There's a feeling right next to your bicep.

I'm going to punch your bicep and hurt your feelings.

Don't touch my feelings.

It's only if you give them the power.

If somebody has a birthday party and you don't get invited,

Okay,

You could be disappointed.

You know,

I'm talking about as adults,

You know,

But it shouldn't reach the point of rage.

Well,

If you don't have that,

But if you,

If you weren't loved as a child and you had these difficult parents who were constantly manipulating you,

I can see where you would go to that extreme.

Well,

That becomes an external event that you need to feel better because that empty bucket leaking bucket.

One of the other types of parents,

Inadequate parents,

She talks about that.

I mean,

This book is,

I can't even tell you how great it was.

What's the name of that book?

Susan forward,

Toxic parents,

Susan forward.

Yeah.

That's what we're talking about today.

We're talking about toxic parents and generational dysfunction.

And we'll be right back.

And we're back with the stuck stops here.

So Tammy,

We were talking about the four types of toxic parents.

So you mentioned two of them.

What are the other two?

So there's actually probably six or seven that Sue,

You know,

Susan forward lists in her book.

I only,

You know,

I'm talking about four of those because that's what I could relate to.

And I think people need to read the book and come up with their own definition for themselves.

So we talked about inadequate parents which really definitely parentify the child.

You know,

They have a lot of burdens and responsibilities,

Whether it be,

You know,

Physical household chores or just chronic emotional support because the parents are needy or,

Or weak or having problems of their own.

So there's,

There's that loss of that carefree,

You know,

I'm allowed to make mistakes type of,

Of experience as a kid because you don't feel like you can,

There's no,

In your mind with that inadequate parents are just,

You know,

Also what I had,

You don't feel like there's a safety net there.

So you can't take any risks.

I always hated when I see parents who don't trust their kids.

They just,

They're so not comfortable with whatever their kids are doing.

They don't trust them.

And then the kids feel like they're cheating all the time.

They feel like,

What am I doing wrong?

I'm just living my life.

Why don't my parents trust me?

That seems like one of the inadequate things.

Yeah,

Their behavior,

The children's behavior or everything they do is a direct reflection of the parents and whether they are hypercritical and hype,

You know,

And hyper involved or completely dismissive,

Either way,

It's still painful.

Another type is you know,

The controllers,

You know,

You know,

You are only an extension of your parent and nothing else.

Both my parents for,

Actually all of my parents,

Mom,

Dad,

Stepdad,

They all operated out of a fear of abandonment.

I don't know why.

I mean,

I know my mother's.

Well,

They came from,

You know,

We talked about generational dysfunction.

They come from parents who are afraid of abandonment.

So my mother,

You know,

Was physically abandoned by her father.

My dad was emotionally abandoned by both parents.

You know,

Nothing leads to a fear of abandonment more than that being abandoned.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And they pull strings to keep the kids close so they feel secure.

So if you're doing anything to threaten that.

So,

You know,

I was very hypervigilant,

You know,

Am I making them feel secure enough?

You know,

You know,

No 10 year old should be doing that.

So you essentially didn't have a childhood.

It sounds like you became the parent.

In a lot of ways,

Yes.

A lot.

I am not alone in that.

There are a lot of people who have paid that price and suffered those consequences and still do because they don't realize it's something that they should not should could disengage from and heal from.

But they don't even know it's an option.

Well,

It's hard to when you feel like your parent needs you and then how do you how do you leave?

How do you abandon them,

Especially when they're giving you the guilt trip or saying don't abandon me,

I might die.

You know,

I'll die if you leave.

I mean,

One of the things that ate away at me has always felt,

You know,

Guilty,

You know,

Just going for going to college,

Because,

You know,

My mother emotionally needed me and also physically needed me.

You know,

I'm,

You know,

She was,

You know,

Pretty challenging physical.

I shouldn't say disability should say physical challenge.

She was severely hearing impaired,

You know,

For all intents and purposes,

You know,

She is deaf,

But she doesn't like that.

And,

You know,

I was always her interpreter,

I made her phone calls,

You know,

I always had to explain what was going on.

And I wouldn't that probably would have been OK if there wasn't an emotional dependence either.

But there was both.

But yet you did go to college.

I did go,

You know,

I did go.

And,

You know,

It was a fog for me for a lot of different reasons.

And I talk about that in the book.

Did you feel guilty when you left?

Yes.

I felt like,

Oh,

My God,

This is going to destroy her.

But you also had a younger brother who you pretty much essentially raised.

Right.

Yes and no.

When,

You know,

When I was younger,

It's actually a great question.

I mean,

I when I was younger,

Before my stepdad came on the scene,

My mother was completely overwhelmed.

My you know,

She was raising two kids alone,

Hearing impaired.

Her mother died.

So she was very overwhelmed and in many ways,

Probably deservedly so.

So without criticizing the fact that she was overwhelmed,

What that did is I must never do anything to add to it.

So being the good girl and getting the good grades and,

You know,

I was raising myself.

So you had to be the perfect one.

I had you want to stir the pot,

Didn't want and my brother was pretty confused and angry and he should have been.

And he was always acting out.

And I think he was just a normal,

Rambunctious kid.

But my mother didn't like it.

And I think was always getting angry,

Always yelling at him.

And,

You know,

There's also,

You know,

I try to remember as much as I can.

And I think sometimes there are things that are just permanently blocked.

You know,

I remember my brother set fire to one of the rugs and,

You know,

We started to I think we went to one family therapy session and the therapist said when kids lighten fires at six years old,

You know,

He's angry.

Did your mother recognize that?

You know,

I don't remember.

I don't honestly I don't remember.

I wish I did.

I know that they never really you know,

He wasn't a very good student,

But they never pushed him.

They just sink or swim.

And that's one of the things is,

You know,

I knew that there was a sink or swim,

You know,

Attitude.

So I better swim fast.

So you swim.

Yes,

Exactly.

And,

You know,

There's the last type,

You know,

This ties into the last type of,

You know,

Toxic parents and I'm covering is the verbal abusers.

You know,

They every book that I've read talks over verbal abuse as being just as painful,

If not more so than physical abuse,

Partly because you can't point to anything.

So the kids matter.

Yes.

People don't always realize how much words matter.

You know,

My mother was constantly critical.

My stepdad liked to use belittling and sarcasm.

And he was just kidding.

And,

You know,

He,

You know,

He was a gaslighter.

And I don't want to get into that because that's there could be a whole episode on that short term gaslighting is,

You know,

If he said something hurtful and I said,

You know,

That wasn't very nice.

Stop being so sensitive.

So gaslighter says you I didn't say anything bad.

It's your reaction.

So they cause you to question your own reality to put the blame on you.

Very,

Very damaging.

So when you get constantly criticized and verbally attacked,

You develop an inner critic and you spend your whole life doing anything to squash that,

To silence it.

Wow.

So do you think like people,

Children who have parents who verbally abuse them,

Do you think they look in the mirror and just hear those like a broken record in their head?

You'll never be any good.

You'll never be loved.

Whatever.

You know,

The things that the parents were kidding in quotations about.

Do you think kids internalize that?

They internalize it in different ways.

Some become just like the parents and some become the polar opposite.

You know,

Bullies beget bullies.

They do.

Or you become we talked about codependency.

You become a people pleaser.

Right.

One or the other,

You know,

Is the overall effects.

You know,

You either,

You know,

Copy your parents or you do the opposite.

Sometimes when you do the opposite,

It's a form of self-defeating rebellion,

Which I did.

You know,

I would do things that wasn't anything like them because I couldn't stand up to them.

So I would do,

You know,

Things that I know that would aggravate them or make them unhappy.

In a way,

They're still controlling me because I'm doing it because of them.

Right.

So I'm,

You know,

Capitulating to their demands or rebelling in a way,

You know,

In a indirect way that I know would aggravate them.

They're still in control.

Either way,

The motivation is coming from them.

Absolutely.

Which you don't want.

So how did the the toxic family system affect you?

Good question.

I was constantly guilty.

That is just one horrific emotional concept.

You know,

I always felt like I didn't do enough of them.

And I always felt guilty that I was hurting them when I said no.

I would get angry when they were so critical to compare me to other people.

You know,

My dad would ignore me or attack me.

My stepdad would criticize me.

And my mom would either,

You know,

Control me.

You know,

She make,

You know,

Do this then do that then.

And just almost like I was like her little doll.

And I never told them what I was thinking or feeling.

I just kept it to myself.

And I always gave into them even when I didn't want to.

And that's very common among people with toxic parents.

So you felt powerless.

Very.

There's it was,

You know,

Honestly,

I think about how many years and decades myself and so many other people spent as a slave to that.

But you're you're a high achieving person,

You know,

You so you you went that route where you thought,

If I could be better,

They'll love me more.

But that also led you to be good at a lot of things,

To be a high functioning person.

Right.

There are a lot of people who are high functioning,

Extremely successful,

That still feel empty on the inside.

In all the books that I've read,

I get so many business owners,

Real estate executives,

Bankers.

So for those people who are listening,

What do you what do you want to say to them?

What can you say to them to offer some good words or healing words?

If you have achieved professionally,

Personally,

Whatever that achievement is,

Athletically,

And you still feel chronically empty,

You get suddenly sad or,

You know,

For no reason,

You know,

I used to have a lot of emotional flashbacks.

Because you can't keep all that crap down.

It's going to seep in.

If you are unhappy and you don't know why,

And you can't label it,

Chances are,

You can trace it back to your childhood.

And when you face it head on,

As painful as that will be,

Whatever that is that you discovered,

When you face it head on,

You will start to feel a little,

You know,

A little ray of sun through the clouds,

Shall we say,

To say,

Oh,

I kind of like where this is going,

Almost feels a little free,

You know,

Taking,

You know,

One of the boulders off your shoulder,

You know,

And I had 27 of them.

Like Atlas,

Let that boulder roll down,

Shrug,

Baby,

Shrug.

Whatever I just sing it,

Say it loud,

Say it proud.

Absolutely.

Well,

This has been our second podcast.

And like we said,

Don't drink the poison if you're thirsty.

I hope that we've been able to offer some good insight and some good words.

Once again,

I'm LW No Lie.

Tami and I are not licensed therapists,

But we feel compelled to talk about this subject and hopefully heal the world and heal some future generations as well with this generational toxic family situation dysfunction.

So stay tuned for our next podcast probably next week.

I hope so.

And we will talk to you soon.

Give a listen to Tami's beautiful song,

When Roots Feel Like Chains.

Bye bye.

I need to break free.

I need to fall far away from this dream.

Roots Feel Like Chains.

Need to break free.

Need to break free.

Need to break free.

Need to break free.

Far away from this dream.

I need to break free.

Reviews

i am enjoying these podcasts Thankyou. I relate to so much of it. It is encouraging me to share my own experiences. Time to shine our light of awareness. 💗

Very useful. Thank you for sharing so much of yourself and your story. Neil 😀☯️

So relatable... which is funny cause we're talking about relatives! So much to absorb and I appreciate you ladies breaking it down and holding up maps for further exploration.

So good! Thank you!

I purchased the book after listening to the 1st podcast and it was like looking at my childhood. Wow! This talk was great.

After listening to the first podcast a 2nd time then listening to this one, I am filled with hope for a better life. I could see my life in many ways in this podcast as well. In the near future I will attempt to confront my parents and lay it all on the line for myself. I say this because my mother has never allowed me to speak or express my emotions and my Dad just goes along with what she says to do..... or not do! I’m hopeful I can do what I need to do for me to have a better life. It’s never too late!! Thank you Tami!

Exceptional. Thank you 😊💕🙏🏻🌷

So glad to have a second episode to listen to❣️ Keep up the good work! 🙏🏻💕

The podcast series validated as well as empowered me on my healing journey. I realize the resistance as a child and many traumatic events were not only generational toxic shame but what my parents could not provide. As you say how could they give you something they never knew or had. Taking care of me no matter what their issues are.
Thank you for this support and knowledge!!! ❤️💕🎈🦋🙏🏽

Crying 😭 Grateful for both of you to be talking about this in such a humorous way, but without taking away its weight. Looking forward to the next episode!

Thank you very much 🙏

Thank you again for a empowering talk. I see my mother manipulated me with a my way or highway attitude all her life and I see I am still recovering from the bullying I recieved at school from teachers she did nothing about. She still punishes me with mind games because I didn't meet her expectations and your book and talk has shown me I need to cut the cords. She will always be a bitter manipulator. She can not change and does not want to. I can. Have started journaling my history and these podcasts and the book is very healing. I can relate to so much in it